Should we be able to test drive cars before purchase? (give feedback)

[twitcher]

I don't have time to get good enough to get sport mode wins, so I think I should be allowed to select how many I want added to my tally when I log in.

That's how retarded this conversation is.

Correct me if I’m interpreting this wrong, but are you equating winning in sport mode, with grinding against AI to earn credits?

Like, are you saying our desire to have access to all/most of the cars in the game without having to grind, is the equivalent of people asking for wins against other real life human opponents handed to them?

I’ll let you clarify what you actually mean here, because I’m pretty confused by what you wrote. But if you are actually making those two things equal....just, wow

There is a MASSIVE difference between following a strat that someone else invented, against AI opponents, to cheese a race to earn credits as fast as possible; versus defeating other human opponents in competition. One takes absolutely zero skill (hence why some people literally use rubber bands), while the other takes a certain level of skill. Skill based accomplishments are worth trophies, not rubber band time sink “accomplishments”.

This whole debate is actually really scary, the seeming number of people who consider grinding credits in GT as “putting in work”, see the expensive cars as their “trophies to show their hard work”, and think there is no point in changing the system “because it’s always been like that” (when it hasn’t, at all). To me, these are the kind of people who feel they deserve a gold star just for showing up at work on time for a week straight.

 

[Macboyilija]

@twitcher thanks for some great posts here in this topic. You were pretty clear and respectfull in almost all of your responses. I do have to say you went a bit too far some posts. But I can relate to the frustration you were feeling when you ask something nicely and you dont get an answer.

So even if the moderator is right in what he says, you just cannot compare the logic with what you have said to what others have replied.

It all went your direction when you simply asked for a motivation from “the other side” and then it got quiet.

Simply put: there is not a single logic in the grinding part of GTS. Thats a fact that needs never be proved as the word “grinding” already proves it as you stated so very well. That some dont mind to grind is completely irrelevant for that statement.

Nice to (finally) see some more intellectual posts regarding these subjects !

 

[skydragon49]

Honestly? No. I guess the way the game rolls right now is ok.

However I do agree we should be given some less grinding way to make in game money. A daily login bonus, the chance to sell duplicate cars, or special seasonal events.

 

[twitcher]

@twitcher thanks for some great posts here in this topic. You were pretty clear and respectfull in almost all of your responses. I do have to say you went a bit too far some posts. But I can relate to the frustration you were feeling when you ask something nicely and you dont get an answer.

So even if the moderator is right in what he says, you just cannot compare the logic with what you have said to what others have replied.

It all went your direction when you simply asked for a motivation from “the other side” and then it got quiet.

Simply put: there is not a single logic in the grinding part of GTS. Thats a fact that needs never be proved as the word “grinding” already proves it as you stated so very well. That some dont mind to grind is completely irrelevant for that statement.

Nice to (finally) see some more intellectual posts than the XXX you sometimes have to read here.

I’ve been having this convo in two threads at once, my bad for that, and I forget which thread I said this.....but I’ve asked someone, anyone from the “I support the grind wall” crowd to comment on the idea of locking cars behind both pay walls and skill walls.
- Shelby Daytona available only for $3.00 from PlayStation store.
- Gr1 and VGT cars available only to Sport Mode A/S drivers.
- W08 available only to the Top 10 in weekly time trials.

It’s the exact same principle as a grind wall, just a different method to get past the wall.

Not a single comment on the idea.

It boils down to purely selfish thinking, and an inability to put oneself in the shoes of someone else who might have drastically different habits/preferences/time available than yourself (not you personally, the general “you”).

“I managed to grind all the credits. If I can do it, anyone can if they “put in the work”. I’ve only been playing the game 3 hours a day since release, getting credits is easy.” - that’s basically what people have been saying (but omitting the bit about how much they actually play the game, added with th GTP regulars think it’s normal to play the game every single day).

However, if I put the shoe on the other foot, and say all Gr1 and VGT (just an example, pick anything you want) should be locked behind a skill wall, only available to A/S drivers - with the additional info that I personally have only been playing the game for 1 month and hit A/S last night - these same people won’t support content being locked behind a wall like this. But I mean, getting to A/S was easy as pie, it only took me 1 month and less than 100 races, anyone should be able to do it, right? And isn’t a trophy for being an A/S driver more worthwhile than a trophy which basically says “I cheesed the AI X number of times”.

Same thing with pay walls. Honestly, how hard is it for the average player to earn less than $5 in real life to buy a car in the game. Go pick up some bottles or something, get a newspaper route Now, I’m not trying to be elitist about money (I’m not rich, far from it), but I’m just adopting the same elitism about money that the grind crowd take with Time. They have time, I don’t. I have money, they may not. Why is their time more worthy of a trophy car than my money (which I spent time to earn)?

 

[Macboyilija]

Because GranTurismo

 

[SestoScudo]

Yes of course any new features to the improve the game is always welcome.

At times I made some dud purchases I regret wasting credits.

 

[05XR8]

The more I stand back(like a painting) from GTS, the C more true to life it is.
It was mentioned how the most expensive cars are the most useless. That's real life.
Owners of those cars either show them off in their garage and concurs events, loan them out for tours, seldom drive on a track and do take them out for a Targa type race.

It's the same in GTS. Minus Arcade, any player that owns one of these museum pieces, is automatically limited to when(Sport Mode) and where they can race them(Gr. X only). Sad, but interesting. Gran Turismo IS The Real Driving Simulator.

 

[klondike]

1 - go to brand central.
2 - switch off the internet on your ps4.
3 - buy the car and test it on a custom race.
4 - if you liked the car, switch on the internet and save, if not, restart the game.

I would not recomend doing this. Not saying your method does not work.

But I am afraid this could somehow bug your save file, and you might end up with the bug where some people have lost all their cars.

 

[Kano Manel]

I don't have time to get good enough to get sport mode wins, so I think I should be allowed to select how many I want added to my tally when I log in.

That's how retarded this conversation is.

Amazing how the most analytical post until now is highly ignored and nobody wants to reply it. @MatskiMonk nailed it.

I keep getting trolled. I was about toget the xj13 from a daily today, I got trolled with an atenza gr4....

If you are talking about the daily reward roulette, that roulette is an illusion. The car you will received is chosen since the moment you see the screen that says daily reward, I have tested this myself (as simple as disconnecting the internet, and reloading the game, you will always get the same car, no matter how many times you try. why? because is already selected by the troll that enjoys making your life miserable)

So, you think the other cars in the roulette could have been yours... but they are just an aleatory random carrot

 

[MatskiMonk]

Correct me if I’m interpreting this wrong, but are you equating winning in sport mode, with grinding against AI to earn credits?

No, I'm equating the objective of owning certain cars with the objective of winning races. They are both objectives people may want to achieve.

Like, are you saying our desire to have access to all/most of the cars in the game without having to grind, is the equivalent of people asking for wins against other real life human opponents handed to them?

No, I'm saying that wanting to achieve one objective without putting in any work is no different to wanting to achieve another objective without putting any work in. You are not accepting that different people put different values on those objectives, and therefore you think it should only be changed to suit you, and also changed to remove the franchises identity within the genre.

Some people don't play this game for wins in sport mode, some people want a different effort/reward scenario. I'd venture that effort/reward scenario is part of the draw of the GT franchise for many people - if you want to gloss over the element of GT that has always been about car collecting then you're bound to be missing the point... it doesn't matter how much you throw around derogatory terms about the game or people within it's long term fan base... what you're asking for is being able to achieve a long term core traditional element of the Gran Turismo franchise at the push of a button, because you want the benefits of it, but you don't want to put in the time to get it. So... in this statement...

This whole debate is actually really scary, the seeming number of people who consider grinding credits in GT as “putting in work”, see the expensive cars as their “trophies to show their hard work”, and think there is no point in changing the system “because it’s always been like that” (when it hasn’t, at all). To me, these are the kind of people who feel they deserve a gold star just for showing up at work on time for a week straight.

...You would be the one expecting the Gold Star on Monday, without having turned up at all.

Grinding is a choice some players make to short-cut their goal, just like rammers, cutters, and people who tank their ratings in sport mode to get wins, poles, fastest laps or whatever. If they don't care, then they don't care, but changing the fundamentals of the game (and of the franchise) to mean they don't feel they need to, would inevitably be to the detriment of the gaming experience for people that do care.

Addressing shortcomings in the games economy isn't accomplished by abandoning it completely, and believe me, I'm not saying there aren't short-comings. FWIW I think the number of hours of genuine gaming that a player has to put in to buy the 20 million credit cars is beyond being reasonable, so I think the cars should be cheaper (say 10-15 million). I think the rate at which credits can be earned in Sport Mode should be more on par with other areas of the game. And, I think there should be some kind of remuneration for those that create and share other content. I don't grind, I think it's a stupid concept.... but, across the hundreds of hours I've spent making decals for myself, and other people, I've left the elastic bands doing the work at Blue Moon Bay on the Playstation, whilst I've been sat at my computer - because there's no other way for me to monetise the time spent on the game unless you are in the game.

 

[icenl]

I agree the real problem is the unbalanced game economy. And the grinding is just a by-product of that. Sport mode doesn't earn much, so i basically stopped playing it after i got the trophies. I think with the current rewards the max car price should be 5 - 10 million. As this version of the game should be more about racing instead of grinding and collecting. Also it would be nice if they let you give credits to livery and decal makers. Or convert mileage points to credits?

 

[devildog666]

Sorry if someone has already created a question like this or posted a related thread. I tried looking it up on the gtplanet forums and nothing showed up. Anyways, I just do not see why gts doesn't have the option to test drive cars ESPECIALLY since now there is the very controversial micro-transactions.

I don't know what micro transactions have to do with anything.

Mine's on my garage collecting dust, never drove it and probably never will, got it on a that daily roulette thing.

I wish cars acquired like that could be sold for some money.

If you've never driven it, then your opinion of it is based on what other people say. YOU don't actually know how it drives.

 

[Strangereal]

You're paying could pay real money on a car you might not like. So it's weird how PD hasn't put in a test drive option if they expect people to pay irl cash for their cars.

 

[Cerebral303]

This thread reminded me of this great set on games by Dara O Briain

"Gaming purists go 'No, you have to unlock the content' and I go 'Yeah, I'm 38 I unlocked it in a shop with a credit card'"



You don't get this time back you know.

 

[twitcher]

No, I'm equating the objective of owning certain cars with the objective of winning races. They are both objectives people may want to achieve.



No, I'm saying that wanting to achieve one objective without putting in any work is no different to wanting to achieve another objective without putting any work in. You are not accepting that different people put different values on those objectives, and therefore you think it should only be changed to suit you, and also changed to remove the franchises identity within the genre.

Some people don't play this game for wins in sport mode, some people want a different effort/reward scenario. I'd venture that effort/reward scenario is part of the draw of the GT franchise for many people - if you want to gloss over the element of GT that has always been about car collecting then you're bound to be missing the point... it doesn't matter how much you throw around derogatory terms about the game or people within it's long term fan base... what you're asking for is being able to achieve a long term core traditional element of the Gran Turismo franchise at the push of a button, because you want the benefits of it, but you don't want to put in the time to get it. So... in this statement...



...You would be the one expecting the Gold Star on Monday, without having turned up at all.

Grinding is a choice some players make to short-cut their goal, just like rammers, cutters, and people who tank their ratings in sport mode to get wins, poles, fastest laps or whatever. If they don't care, then they don't care, but changing the fundamentals of the game (and of the franchise) to mean they don't feel they need to, would inevitably be to the detriment of the gaming experience for people that do care.

Addressing shortcomings in the games economy isn't accomplished by abandoning it completely, and believe me, I'm not saying there aren't short-comings. FWIW I think the number of hours of genuine gaming that a player has to put in to buy the 20 million credit cars is beyond being reasonable, so I think the cars should be cheaper (say 10-15 million). I think the rate at which credits can be earned in Sport Mode should be more on par with other areas of the game. And, I think there should be some kind of remuneration for those that create and share other content. I don't grind, I think it's a stupid concept.... but, across the hundreds of hours I've spent making decals for myself, and other people, I've left the elastic bands doing the work at Blue Moon Bay on the Playstation, whilst I've been sat at my computer - because there's no other way for me to monetise the time spent on the game unless you are in the game.

So you are saying that grinding credits is the equivalent of earning race wins against real opponenets. That is shocking. Wow.

Mindlessly grinding credits just because you have time available while others don’t is not “putting in work”. That’s what I find scary about this, that people actually consider mindless grinding as “putting in work” which is worthy of a “trophy car”.

Grinding has NOT always been a part of GT, get your facts straight. Not on the level that it is necessary in GTS. Even if it was a core part of past games, that’s really bad justification to continue the poor and lazy game design.

Again, you’re making the massive assumption that just because previous GT games had had a similar structure, that a majority of the game’s population actually like or enjoy the grinding aspects, as opposed to merely just tolerating them.

You’re exactly right that some people want a different experience from others. If someone wants to spend all their time creating masterpieces in the livery editor that thousands of other players enjoy, why should that person be limited from accessing certain cars, because they “haven’t put in the work”.

You admit that you use elastic bands to earn money...and then have the balls to say “that’s a core part of GTs game structure”. Really, THAT is a core part of the game structure...elastic bands??? Fml lol.

Would you care to have a go at my questions? If you support the idea of locking certain cars behind a grind wall, why not also lock certain cars behind skill walls and pay walls? It’s the exact same concept, just a different method of getting over the wall.

The current system rewards people who have extra time on their hands, but does not have any trophy car rewards for people with exceptional skill, nore for people who show PD real support with their credit card. You’ve admitted yourself that you have 100s of hours in the game. Why should someone who has less time to play the game be prohibited from driving certain cars? The only justification that anyone from your camp can come up with is “it a reward for our hard work.” Really?? All the hard work you do with your elastic bands??

So, the idea is this. You want to have your grind wall cars, fine. But then let’s make some cars available only to people who are A/S drivers, let’s make the W08 available only to weekly Top 10 drivers, and let’s put some cars exclusively in the PS Store. Any of these cars are available to anyone who wants to “put in the work”. Would you support this concept? Or do you only support locking cars behind time sink grind walls, and not behind skill walls or pay walls (aka the PD support wall).


The fact that you would use the term “elastic band” in the same post as “putting in work” is what I find scary. And again, it’s a purely selfish outlook. “I have enough time to put 100s of hours into the game, therefor I should be rewarded.” You’re completely failing to appreciate how other people might like to play the game, and your only justification for clinging to the credit grind is that it gives you some false sense of accomplishment. Not to mention that you also think sinking hundreds of hours into a game using rubber bands is worthy of a reward.

So nice try, but you haven’t come up with anything new that others before you haven’t already said, and none of what any of you said makes a good case for why the credit system shouldn’t be drastically altered to remove any/all of he grind.

 

[Kano Manel]

'Yeah, I'm 38 I unlocked it in a shop with a credit card'"

This is so ****ing true!! Love this Dara's monologue, thanks for sharing

 

[MatskiMonk]

@twitcher

I appreciate you're fighting this fight in mupltiple threads, but I sense you didn't barely gave any thought to my post before copy and pasting statements you've already made...

So you are saying that grinding credits is the equivalent of earning race wins against real opponenets. That is shocking. Wow.

Much incorrect paraphrasing, wow.

Mindlessly grinding credits just because you have time available while others don’t is not “putting in work”. That’s what I find scary about this, that people actually consider mindless grinding as “putting in work” which is worthy of a “trophy car”.

Firstly, mindless grinding is a choice. If people want to race the same race constantly, simply for the purposes of earning credits then they can, but they don't have to - they can just play the game to earn credits. Secondly... it's not for you to judge if 10-20 hours of driving is "putting in the work" or not.... it's 10-20 hours of driving, it is work whether you approve of it or not - I mean if it was easy, would we even be having this discussion?

Grinding has NOT always been a part of GT, get your facts straight.

Get your quotes straight... where did I say "Grinding has always been a part of GT"?.... I'll repeat, grinding is a choice... what has always been a core component of GT is buying cars.

Even if it was a core part of past games, that’s really bad justification to continue the poor and lazy game design.

It's neither poor nor lazy. It's the developers choice, and simply one you don't like.

Again, you’re making the massive assumption that just because previous GT games had had a similar structure, that a majority of the game’s population actually like or enjoy the grinding aspects, as opposed to merely just tolerating them.

Okay, we can agree that neither of us can evidence why people still buy GTS, however I don't see how you can dispute that earning credits and buying cars is not an expected part of the GT franchise.

You’re exactly right that some people want a different experience from others. If someone wants to spend all their time creating masterpieces in the livery editor that thousands of other players enjoy, why should that person be limited from accessing certain cars, because they “haven’t put in the work”.

Which is why I said I'd like to see some kind of reward structure in place for people that use the game to generate shared content.

You admit that you use elastic bands to earn money...and then have the balls to say “that’s a core part of GTs game structure”. Really, THAT is a core part of the game structure...elastic bands??? Fml lol.

You are again deliberately incorrectly paraphrasing my post. Earning money is core part of GT's game structure, and always has been. The fact I choose to exploit one simple short coming of the game (wall-riding), does not mean that wall-riding is a core part of the game and that is not what I had "the balls to say".

Would you care to have a go at my questions? If you support the idea of locking certain cars behind a grind wall, why not also lock certain cars behind skill walls and pay walls? It’s the exact same concept, just a different method of getting over the wall.

Firstly, nothing is locked behind a grind wall. Grinding is optional. Secondly, I'd argue it's not the same concept as the resources required are fundamentally different, but FWIW, I'm not against either of those things in principle, it all depends on the execution.

The Nismo 400R and the TRD3000GT were, IIRC "locked behind a skill wall" in the original GT, to this day I consider them both mythical beasts basically because of that and I don't feel it was to the detriment of the game... what's crucial is correctly judging the skill level required, and how essential the prize car is to game progression.

A paywall is a different proposition. If the Ferrari was £4.99, not available otherwise ingame, I wouldn't care. If it was a BMW 507, I'd pay the money. I'd consider neither an achievement, but I'd enjoy driving it anyway. If a car was £19.99 and was required for game progression, I'd consider it highly a objectional and immoral business practice.

The current system rewards people who have extra time on their hands, but does not have any trophy car rewards for people with exceptional skill, nore for people who show PD real support with their credit card.

Time, money and Skill are not equal resources so it's important not to generalise...

Time allows people to play the game and is crucially cumulative, as is the credit balance. Someone that has an hour a week to play will eventually be able to achieve the same credit balance as someone that can play for a couple of hours a day. People that have more time simply get things sooner, the amount of time spent in the game is the same for both people, having more time doesn't get you anything extra. FWIW, I've already said that this balance is wrong in GTS.

Skill is not cumulative, some people are simply better at the game than others, and no matter how many hours are sunk into the game, they will never get beyond a certain point, so having a skill wall set too high would permanently exclude many players.

Money... well, money is money, how we get it, and how we spend it is entirely individual. I might spend £100+ on a good die-cast model.... would I do that in game... probably not.

You’ve admitted yourself that you have 100s of hours in the game. Why should someone who has less time to play the game be prohibited from driving certain cars? The only justification that anyone from your camp can come up with is “it a reward for our hard work.”

Effort = Reward. It really is a fundamental aspect of games, infact life in general.

Really??

Yep.

All the hard work you do with your elastic bands??

Give me a couple of hours and I can tell you fairly accurately what % of the 39,510,770 credits were earned by my N200 SFR and a pair of elastic bands. You can assume it's all of them, I can assure you it isn't.

 

[twitcher]

@MatskiMonk you’re still arguing for having trophy cars for nothing more than a time sink. Like you say, time is a commodity, and and doesn’t just grow on trees. @rono_thomas showed that based on his play time, it will take him 9 years to unlock these trophy cars. How is that fare?

You can’t just put in 10-20 hour of driving and earn credits. If I drift online for 100 hours, I get nothing for it in regards to unlocking these trophy cars. If I do car shows for 200 hours, I get nothing. If I cruise for 500 hours, again, nothing. Sport mode, I get pennies. In order to unlock these trophy cars, I must sink serious time into the completely aweful single player aspect of the game.

As far as buying cars being a core component of GT, first my bad if I paraphrased you wrong there, and second I’d agree. But the used car dealer was a core component, as were shuffle races at one point. Both are gone now. There’s no logical reason that the credit grind element of the game can’t also be removed. Now, I will say that the game is worse off without the UCD and Shuffle racing, but that’s a seperate arguement. I’m simply using them as examples of core elements of the game that are now gone (so was adding custom parts, that element is now gone completely).


In regards to charging 19.99 for a car that is required to progress the game. How is that any more “immoral” that requiring someone to sink 100+ hours into the game just to sample an iconic racecar. Keep in mind that in life, we have a pretty globally accepted concept of converting time into money and money into time...so why is it immoral to lock progression behind money, but it’s not immoral to lock progression behind time? Also remember that time is not a commodity that people can just create out of thin air.

Time and money are equal resources, that’s why we convert one into the other all the time. Without this basic principle, the world’s economy would fall apart.

I’ll agree that skill is not necessarily cumulative...but just like you say not all players will reach the same skill levels, not all players have the same amount of time to put into the game. Saying that someone who plays once per week will eventually earn the same credits as someone who plays once per day is wrong, based on simple math (or the once per day player deliberately stopping earning credits and/or sitting at the credit cap). But if both players do the same activities in their play time, and the once per day player converts extra credits into Vulcans, then the once per week player will never catch up in credit count.


Effort = reward, I 100% agree with. What I disagree with is the idea that grinding/racing against GT’s AI l, repeatedly, over long periods of time, is effort worthy of the reward of gaining access to some of the most iconic racecars of all time, whilst other players who may sink double or triple the amount of time into other aspects of the game don’t get any kind of trophy cars. And to be clear, I’m not trying to whine to have more trophy cars for rediculous achievemts added, I’m looking to see the concept of trophy cars gone (or at least reserve trophy cars for fantasy PD cars).


So to kind of sum up. Players who have the luxury of being able to play the game for 100s of hours - why is it they deserve access to trophy cars (which are iconic, legendary cars), when players who don’t have the luxury of 100s of hours of game time, are blocked from accessing these cars? And what is so special about being able to sink time into the single player aspect of this game that is deserving of these trophy’s, while actually being a good race driver, or an artist with the livery editor, or a drift king, or any number of other aspects of the game that are/should be more worthy of these trophy cars. My point being that you either stand for trophy cars for all aspects of the game, or no aspects of the game.

 

[Rinsky]

So to kind of sum up. Players who have the luxury of being able to play the game for 100s of hours - why is it they deserve access to trophy cars (which are iconic, legendary cars), when players who don’t have the luxury of 100s of hours of game time, are blocked from accessing these cars? And what is so special about being able to sink time into the single player aspect of this game that is deserving of these trophy’s, while actually being a good race driver, or an artist with the livery editor, or a drift king, or any number of other aspects of the game that are/should be more worthy of these trophy cars. My point being that you either stand for trophy cars for all aspects of the game, or no aspects of the game.

The game is supposed to be around and played for years not days. It is setup to be difficult to obtain these cars and requires credits built up over a long period time so that there is always something to work towards. Only the people with the ( I must have them all now mentality ) are either mad that they can't afford them right now or are the ones grinding to get them.

Everyone else will end up getting them over a long period of time exactly the way it was designed to be. There cars are unicorns in real life and they are unicorns in this game and again were not meant to be easy to obtain in GT.

We all understand your frustration and arguments surrounding this issue but not everything in life is given out for free and requires a lot of work to get the things you want in life.
The updates the cars were in was free and nobody paid for them therefore nobody is entitled to the content without putting in some race time to get them. Yet you still have an opportunity to win one off the carousel every single day.

 

[twitcher]

The game is supposed to be around and played for years not days. It is setup to be difficult to obtain these cars and requires credits built up over a long period time so that there is always something to work towards. Only the people with the ( I must have them all now mentality ) are either mad that they can't afford them right now or are the ones grinding to get them.

Everyone else will end up getting them over a long period of time exactly the way it was designed to be. There cars are unicorns in real life and they are unicorns in this game and again were not meant to be easy to obtain in GT.

We all understand your frustration and arguments surrounding this issue but not everything in life is given out for free and requires a lot of work to get the things you want in life.
The updates the cars were in was free and nobody paid for them therefore nobody is entitled to the content without putting in some race time to get them. Yet you still have an opportunity to win one off the carousel every single day.

The game is supposed to be played for years, I agree, but you only accumulate credits for doing 1 aspect of the game, and it happens to be the most mundane, archaic, outdated, poorly designed aspect of the game. Like I’ve said, people can sink 100s of hours into more creative/skillful/community oriented aspects of the game, and they get nothing to show for it - or at least not a fancy trophy car.

I’m not mad I can’t access these cars, I’m indifferent about it really. But I do think it has a negative impact on the GT community to bar massive amounts of the player base from accessing certain content that is locked behind nothing more than a time sink. It especially has a negative impact on the online community, where people are forced to not participate in online activities to be able to earn these cars, and negative in the fact that these cars are basically useless online in terms of having a full grid race with them because they’re so rare across the online community.


Again, you’re another one who’s arguement boils down to nothing more than ‘sink massive hours into the single player aspect of the game, and you can gain access to these trophy cars’. You conflating time sunk into the game vs effort put into the game (ie using rubber bands, or repeating the same race over and over is minimal effort at best, whereas someone can put huge effort into Sport mode over a shorter period). They’re not the same thing, and offering rewards for a time sink while not offering rewards for skill based efforts (creating liveries is also a skill) is lame at best.


As far as the cars being unicorns in real life and therefor should be in game....that’s a pandora’s Box of logic you don’t want to open. If we start applying that type of “real life” approach to the game, then people should be paying for repair bills, only top level drivers should be allowed to drive top level cars, circuits like Bathurst would only be used 3 times per year, the list goes on and on.


I’m not sitting here crying “waaaa I want this stuff for free, waaaa”. I’m saying that the logic being presented for why trophy cars for a time sink is non-existent, and really comes down to people who have time as a luxury wanting something that they can show off. Furthermore, I’m fully disagreeing with the idea that sinking hundreds of hours into single player aspect of the game constitute “putting in work”, whilst other much more involved aspects of the game somehow aren’t considered “putting in work”; and additionally that a reward that happens to be a trophy car which is an extremely iconic racecar for “putting in work” (which is actually nothing more than “sinking hours into the most simple aspect of the game”) is a ludicrous trophy to award.

On top of all of this, by not accepting micro transaction for these trophy cars, you’re further saying that sinking massive hours into the simplest aspect of a video game is “putting in work worthy of reward”, while putting in real work at a real job to make real money which could be used to obtain the same car, does not fly. This is hypocritical at best.

It’s crazy that people will try to play the “you have to work hard to earn these things” card, but when you present them with the options of, “well what about people who work hard for their money, or people who work hard at being fast on a simulator, shouldn’t they have access to exclusive rewards and trophies?” they automatically fall back to the, “that’s not fair, not everyone can attain the same skill level, or not everyone has extra money”. News flash...not everyone has the same amount of time available. So again, why is having spare time worthy of a reward, but having skill or showing support to PD with your visa is not worthy of some kind of special reward. Just to clarify like I did on my last post, I’m saying all this to present you with the choice - either you accept trophy cars being locked behind various types of walls across all aspects of the game, or you must resign to the fact that having exclusive trophy cars for the most effortless but time intensive aspect of the game is at the very least poor game design.

 

[Sander 001]

Firstly, nothing is locked behind a grind wall. Grinding is optional.

 

[twitcher]

Amazing how the most analytical post until now is highly ignored and nobody wants to reply it. @MatskiMonk nailed it.



If you are talking about the daily reward roulette, that roulette is an illusion. The car you will received is chosen since the moment you see the screen that says daily reward, I have tested this myself (as simple as disconnecting the internet, and reloading the game, you will always get the same car, no matter how many times you try. why? because is already selected by the troll that enjoys making your life miserable)

So, you think the other cars in the roulette could have been yours... but they are just an aleatory random carrot

The only thing he nailed is a massive false equivalency between repeatedly racing against the game’s terrible AI, and defeating actual human opponents in head to head competition. They are not even close to the same thing, therefor asking to access to the full catalog of cars in GT without grinding is not the same thing as asking for free wins in Sport mode. Not even close to the same thing.

 

[MatskiMonk]

The only thing he nailed is a massive false equivalency between repeatedly racing against the game’s terrible AI, and defeating actual human opponents in head to head competition. They are not even close to the same thing, therefor asking to access to the full catalog of cars in GT without grinding is not the same thing as asking for free wins in Sport mode. Not even close to the same thing.

Lol

 

[twitcher]

Lol

You can lol all you want, it doesn’t make repeadetly beating the AI the same thing as asking for free wins against human opponents.


Since you seem to be adamant about these trophy cars being in the game, what about a different method to unlock them? What if instead of requiring credits, they required Miliage Points? That way, you could do a much wider variety of things in the game without being pigeon holed into having to grind against the AI, and still be able to slowly work towards these trophy cars.

Or how about if the game must have some sort of trophy for beating the AI over and over again, why not make it something other than a car? Why not a fancy colour, or a suit, or helmet, or sticker? Why is it that the game must have these credit related trophies, and why must these trophies be iconic race cars.

I’m guessing the only reason you or anyone will be able to come up with is, “because muh trophy cars, muh ‘hard work’”.

And you have nothing to say in regards to your point about time and money not being equivalent? Or how using credits to unlock cars is a core element of the franchise and therefor not up for discussion about being dropped, when there are other core elements of the game that have been dropped? No counter to my point that your ability to sink 100s of hours into the game is a luxury that not everyone has, and having 100s of hours of extra time to sink into GT is nothing worthy of a reward in and of itself. No comment about the morality of putting aspects of the game behind time sink walls vs pay walls?

Just “lol”. Good chat, I guess we’re done.

 

[Rinsky]

The game is supposed to be played for years, I agree, but you only accumulate credits for doing 1 aspect of the game, and it happens to be the most mundane, archaic, outdated, poorly designed aspect of the game. Like I’ve said, people can sink 100s of hours into more creative/skillful/community oriented aspects of the game, and they get nothing to show for it - or at least not a fancy trophy car.

You accumulate credits for racing in every part of the game, Sport Mode, lobbies and GT League. It just so happens that GT League pays the most credits out. Why? Because its setup for everyone to win and receive the top payout. Even if Online races paid out the same as GT League how many people are good enough to win every single time for the top payout. Furthermore the majority of people who are into Sport Mode could care less about these high priced cars or car collecting and have no use for most of the road cars in this game.

I’m not mad I can’t access these cars, I’m indifferent about it really. But I do think it has a negative impact on the GT community to bar massive amounts of the player base from accessing certain content that is locked behind nothing more than a time sink. It especially has a negative impact on the online community, where people are forced to not participate in online activities to be able to earn these cars, and negative in the fact that these cars are basically useless online in terms of having a full grid race with them because they’re so rare across the online community.

Its been this way always and I see no negative impact on the GT community. Like I said the game is meant to be played for years and just like in past titles say GT5 & GT6 if you stay with it and play it through its life cycle you will end up with 5 of each 20m credit cars even if you don't spend much time everyday playing it. There is no benefit to owning any of these 20m credit cars as fast as you can get them other than just to say you have them.

Again, you’re another one who’s arguement boils down to nothing more than ‘sink massive hours into the single player aspect of the game, and you can gain access to these trophy cars’. You conflating time sunk into the game vs effort put into the game (ie using rubber bands, or repeating the same race over and over is minimal effort at best, whereas someone can put huge effort into Sport mode over a shorter period). They’re not the same thing, and offering rewards for a time sink while not offering rewards for skill based efforts (creating liveries is also a skill) is lame at best.

Believe it or not but a massive amount of the GT fan base prefer the single player content over the online play and it's why PD threw together GT League and put it into GTS a game that wasn't designed to have this single player content anymore.
My argument is absolutely to put a lot of hours into the game but not just into one area of it. The Single player part is the fastest way to earn the most credits but it's not the only way. I run a 1.5hr endurance race every month and the payout is nice at the end but its definitely not a quick way to earn credits but it's fun.
The decision comes down to the user and how much importance they put on acquiring these cars.

As far as the cars being unicorns in real life and therefor should be in game....that’s a pandora’s Box of logic you don’t want to open. If we start applying that type of “real life” approach to the game, then people should be paying for repair bills, only top level drivers should be allowed to drive top level cars, circuits like Bathurst would only be used 3 times per year, the list goes on and on.


I’m not sitting here crying “waaaa I want this stuff for free, waaaa”. I’m saying that the logic being presented for why trophy cars for a time sink is non-existent, and really comes down to people who have time as a luxury wanting something that they can show off. Furthermore, I’m fully disagreeing with the idea that sinking hundreds of hours into single player aspect of the game constitute “putting in work”, whilst other much more involved aspects of the game somehow aren’t considered “putting in work”; and additionally that a reward that happens to be a trophy car which is an extremely iconic racecar for “putting in work” (which is actually nothing more than “sinking hours into the most simple aspect of the game”) is a ludicrous trophy to award.

On top of all of this, by not accepting micro transaction for these trophy cars, you’re further saying that sinking massive hours into the simplest aspect of a video game is “putting in work worthy of reward”, while putting in real work at a real job to make real money which could be used to obtain the same car, does not fly. This is hypocritical at best.

It’s crazy that people will try to play the “you have to work hard to earn these things” card, but when you present them with the options of, “well what about people who work hard for their money, or people who work hard at being fast on a simulator, shouldn’t they have access to exclusive rewards and trophies?” they automatically fall back to the, “that’s not fair, not everyone can attain the same skill level, or not everyone has extra money”. News flash...not everyone has the same amount of time available. So again, why is having spare time worthy of a reward, but having skill or showing support to PD with your visa is not worthy of some kind of special reward. Just to clarify like I did on my last post, I’m saying all this to present you with the choice - either you accept trophy cars being locked behind various types of walls across all aspects of the game, or you must resign to the fact that having exclusive trophy cars for the most effortless but time intensive aspect of the game is at the very least poor game design.

We are just not going to look at this the same way.
I would be 100% on your side if we had to pay for this DLC and still had to shell out 20m credits for the car but we didn't pay for it and all DLC has been for free.
I would be 100% on your side if by not acquiring these cars affected your game play and stopped people from advancing or completing the game but it doesn't. You can continue on as if those cars were never in the game. It doesn't stop people from getting the 100% completion trophy and it doesn't stop people from advancing within the game and reaching lvl 50. There is nothing negative about not owning these cars.
Own one, all, or none of them and it changes nothing.

The only thing it takes to get these cars is time and how people choose to use that time is completely on them. GT League, Sport Mode or Lobby racing it's up to you.
This is also not the end of these 20m car because there is still two more left to be brought over from GT6 ( Alfa Romeo, Ford GT40 Gulf livery) and anything new that PD will add could possibly have a few more of these high priced cars.

Spoiler: Stats

 

[rono_thomas]

but we didn't pay for it and all DLC has been for free.

Please dont be fooled.

GT5/6 are not comparable. The effort required to earn credits in GTS is much greater, coupled with the inflated prices, means the level of grinding has reached new heights.

I had no issue with the grind in previous iterations, but theres an argument that it is a monumental waste of time in GTS

GT league was added because of the fan base being vocal? And having a preference?

I do not see the problem with the grind being made more realistic.

You are averaging 3.7 hours a day of gameplay over 239 days of distinct access, many players do not fall into this range, again PD’s minimum wage is lacking.

 

[MatskiMonk]

Good chat, I guess we’re done.

I think your time = money argument is ridiculous, but now you've decided to resort to calling arguments you don't like logical fallacies, I've decided to stop wasting time discussing it. Weirdly, although I saved myself 20 minutes of typing, my bank balance didn't change...

 

[twitcher]

I think your time = money argument is ridiculous, but now you've decided to resort to calling arguments you don't like logical fallacies, I've decided to stop wasting time discussing it. Weirdly, although I saved myself 20 minutes of typing, my bank balance didn't change...

Please explain how time does not equal money. That basic formulae is how people get payed.

In life, we have a very basic saying that literally says “Time equals money”. Again, this basic concept is how the world’s economy functions, so you’re going to have to explain why you think this is rediculous.

I’m not resorting to calling stuff I don’t like logical fallacies. If you present a logical fallacy, I will call it one.

Saying that repeadedly beating the AI over and over and over again (and you use rubber bands sometimes), is not the same as asking someone to give you free wins against human opponents. That IS a logical fallacy, the two things are not equal.

You accumulate credits for racing in every part of the game, Sport Mode, lobbies and GT League. It just so happens that GT League pays the most credits out. Why? Because its setup for everyone to win and receive the top payout. Even if Online races paid out the same as GT League how many people are good enough to win every single time for the top payout. Furthermore the majority of people who are into Sport Mode could care less about these high priced cars or car collecting and have no use for most of the road cars in this game.

So now GT league is set up for people to win? You are making more cases against your positions that for it.

This is hilarious. I’ve got one person saying that beating the AI is the exact same thing as beating humans, and then another guy saying that the AI is set up for players of all skill levels to be able to beat. This is awesome

Don’t make assumptions about what people in sport mode do or don’t do with the rest of their game time, and don’t use that as a justification for maintaining your timesink achievements. I’m an A/S driver, almost 20 wins in just over 100 races, only had the game for 1 month....but I wouldn’t mind being able to join some people in a lobby to have a vintage GT race.


You’ve literally just made the case that GT league is so easy that it’s actually set up to win, meaning that all a person has to do is literally sink time into it. If it’s set up for you to win, what about all this “hard work” that people keep talking about? We’re now considering it “hard work” to complete events that are designed for you to win? Hey zues!

Its been this way always and I see no negative impact on the GT community. Like I said the game is meant to be played for years and just like in past titles say GT5 & GT6 if you stay with it and play it through its life cycle you will end up with 5 of each 20m credit cars even if you don't spend much time everyday playing it. There is no benefit to owning any of these 20m credit cars as fast as you can get them other than just to say you have them.

First, and AGAIN, GT games have not always been this grind intensive, this has been demonstrated by many people in this thread, so stop using that arguement, it is false.

Second, again, your arguement boils down to nothing more than “sink massive time into the game” (in your case, you’re literally saying sink years into the game). I agree that the game is meant to be played for a long time, but why is it that a relatively small crowd of people demand that they must have these carrots on a stick in order to maintain the longevity of the game. Why is it that these iconic racecars need to be locked behind a massive time sink, for an activity which you yourself admit is not challenging (set up for you to win).

Your only justification for having this model is your believe that previous GTs have been like this (they haven’t), and that it adds longevity to the game (there are dozens of ways to add replay value other than a credit grind).

You haven’t given a good reason why these specific trophy cars should be awarded to people who have the luxury of spare time to repeadely do events that are designed to be easy to beat. Nore have you made a case for why this activity, the repeated completion of easy-mode events, is an achievement worthy of these rare racecars; when someone who is either an actual good driver, or willing to show support to PD with their credit card, these people are blocked from accessing this content if they happen to not have 100s of hours or years to sink into the game.

We are just not going to look at this the same way.
I would be 100% on your side if we had to pay for this DLC and still had to shell out 20m credits for the car but we didn't pay for it and all DLC has been for free.
I would be 100% on your side if by not acquiring these cars affected your game play and stopped people from advancing or completing the game but it doesn't. You can continue on as if those cars were never in the game. It doesn't stop people from getting the 100% completion trophy and it doesn't stop people from advancing within the game and reaching lvl 50. There is nothing negative about not owning these cars.
Own one, all, or none of them and it changes nothing.

What changes is that hardly anyone has the cars, so it’s nearly impossible to have a full race with them. This is a sandbox racing game, not a progression based story game. The cars are meant to be used, not as trophies for a time sink.

Here’s a question. My gaming experience in GTS is negatively impacted by not having access to these cars.

How would your gaming experience be negatively impacted if I, and everyone else, have access to these cars? How does my gaining access to the car diminish your enjoyment of the car, other than the removal of your pride for repeadely beating AI that are designed for you to beat?

The only thing it takes to get these cars is time and how people choose to use that time is completely on them. GT League, Sport Mode or Lobby racing it's up to you.
This is also not the end of these 20m car because there is still two more left to be brought over from GT6 ( Alfa Romeo, Ford GT40 Gulf livery) and anything new that PD will add could possibly have a few more of these high priced cars.

Spoiler: Stats

View attachment 763005

Bingo, and that’s whats wrong. Zero skill involved, zero contribution to the community, just sink time into single player by uourself with some rubber bands.

It is up to people how they allocate their time, and right now, if you allocate your time to doing anything but single player, you won’t acquire enough credits in the game’s Lifespan to unlock these cars.



So to sum up, your points are
- earning credits is purely a time sink
- AI is set up for people to win against
- the credit grind adds replay value to the game
- it’s always been this way (when it hasn’t)

Like I said, you’re doing more to harm your position in the arguement than bolster it.

 

[MatskiMonk]

Please explain how time does not equal money. That basic formulae is how people get payed.

In life, we have a very basic saying that literally says “Time equals money”. Again, this basic concept is how the world’s economy functions, so you’re going to have to explain why you think this is rediculous.

I’m not resorting to calling stuff I don’t like logical fallacies. If you present a logical fallacy, I will call it one.

Saying that repeadedly beating the AI over and over and over again (and you use rubber bands sometimes), is not the same as asking someone to give you free wins against human opponents. That IS a logical fallacy, the two things are not equal.

The irony here is that you are taking an idiom literally, and accusing me of false equivalencies.

Anyway, as you say, we are done - this discussion is clearly disappearing down a rabbit hole and I don't see either of us changing our stance on the issue.

 

[twitcher]

The irony here is that you are taking an idiom literally, and accusing me of false equivalencies.

Anyway, as you say, we are done - this discussion is clearly disappearing down a rabbit hole and I don't see either of us changing our stance on the issue.

Taking the idiom literally was a joke. But you need to explain how time does not equal money. This crazy lol. People literally get payed X amount of dollars for working for period Y. I can take all summer to build my back deck, or I can pay a carpenter to do it in less than week. I use my money, via the work of be carpenter, to give myself more free time.

You’ve also blatantly said that defeating GTs AI is the same thing as beating human opponents. Talk about a rabbit hole indeed.

And you still haven’t given a case for why people with the luxury of time are deserving of these trophy cars, while people who may have skill, or work hard for their money, they don’t have any kind of trophy car to show for their efforts. Why is the time sink deserving of a trophy, but other aspects aren’t? Why does the trophy need to be a iconic racecar?