SNAIL Sunday Night Future Forward - Open Discussion

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Rednose58

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As you have noticed, our numbers of active racers are coming down in the last few months and it is time to discuss where we want to go from here.

With many of you drifting away from PS3 and GT6 and with GT Sport and Project Cars 2 still somewhere in the future, we want to invite you to throw it out there (or in here) what you think we should do.

There are various options, each with their challenges and I'll start some ideas below and invite you to get your opinions out.

We know we will get a broad spectrum of ideas, but please, do not play american politics by shooting down others' ideas.... promote your own and we will find a compromise and make it work the best we can. We will satisfy many and some will have different needs and move on to better things.

Platform:
1. Stay on PS3 / GT6 until GTSport or Project Cars 2 come out and make the switch to PS4 with one of the two games
Potential issue is that we will lose more members and may not survive.
Advantage is that we keep the same format for now that is working well.​

2. Move to PS4 / Project Cars now for a "short" period and switch to PC2 or GTS
Potential issue is that we can't run the exact same format and we will have to compromise on some of our basics. We are open to listen to what you have to say.​

Format:
1. GT6 is well suited for club racing

2. We can't copy our Snail Sunday format directly on PCars (Qually alone, Reverse grid, uploading and sharing replays, data collection is a little more challenging without the help of I-pad/android apps, Incident reporting, etc)

3. Running cars that are not tuned may be a downer for the guys that are getting more into tuning

So, if we want to make an interim change we will have to change the format and compromise on a few things. Getting consensus on what the format should look like is also a challenge, because you won't satisfy all.

I AC on the table?

Over to you....
 
Ok, coming from someone who hasn't run in Sunday's for awhile, I think that the look to pCars would be best. There are many members in the Pits series and I could possibly see them coming to Sunday and Wednesday. Also tuning would be hard in pCars but the friendship and helping attitude found within SNAIL I think would help with that issue. My 2¢
 
I'm all for going to PCars if it can done with no tuning.
I have a PS4. I have PCars. I have a G29, so I'm prepared for that.
Time spent trying different tunes is what I don't have.
Clean racing is the main reason I came to SNAIL, no tuning is what keeps me competitive.
So, whatever game/platform is chosen, I know the clean racing will remain, but my concern is tuning.
 
I too have not raced sunday in quite a while since switching to Pcars. I would vote to move to Pcars for Sunday racing but I do have to point out a couple things regarding "no tuning". Unfortunately when you select tuning prohibited in Pcars the settings are not always the same from one car to the other. Some may start with more fuel or less fuel and even suspension settings can be different.

I suggest it either be setup for tuning or make it a gentlemens agreement of no tuning and everyone starts with full fuel.
 
I really like A.C. but it's not ready to.offer anything close for what is needed online. Pcars, while very far from perfect for SNAIL is the only workable option in my mind. My guess is that numbers would increase quickly; but huge learning curve. GT6 is pretty slick.
 
I think that choice number two is the better choice and vote for PCars. I think it's pretty much agreed that after trying PCars, GT6 feels very dated. More importantly, I think PCars offers more realistic simulated racing over racing gaming. The tuning is the questionmark. One of the things I really like about GT6 is that everybody has the same tune, and my lack of time and knowledge to tune has hurt me a bit in PCars, but I generally think it should be open tuning. One important thing to remember is PCars tuning doesn't involve slapping on nitrous or a better turbo, but instead is focused on chassis tuning, which at the end of the day should help us all become better drivers as opposed to benefitting alien gamers.

Regardless, as much as I love PCars, I will miss the simplicity of GT6 as we've come to know it.
 
socalnatv
I'm all for going to PCars if it can done with no tuning.
I have a PS4. I have PCars. I have a G29, so I'm prepared for that.
Time spent trying different tunes is what I don't have.
Clean racing is the main reason I came to SNAIL, no tuning is what keeps me competitive.
So, whatever game/platform is chosen, I know the clean racing will remain, but my concern is tuning.
Click to expand...
This is exactly where I am also.
 
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If true, and we still don't have to doubt their promises coughPDcough, this is right around the corner and promises to cure most of the ills of PCars.

I've been racing very little these days, but whatever racing I do is on PC in Assetto or rFactor (for the 6 wheeled Tyrrell...).

AC has the best driving in my opinion, but their online implementation on console is still pretty weird and they don't have the enormity of options that GT has and what makes it possible to have so many combinations in order to use 3 per night. There are very good options, don't get me wrong, but without the possibility to add mods (where people have gone crazy and you can find the weirdest, most spectacular options to add on PC), I'd say the 3 combo deal would get stale pretty fast.

PCars has great driving, very decent online implementation (and #2 is coming soon, with improvements) and there is some practice on it inside SNAIL via PITS. There isn't as much variety as GT (no one has), but there is enough to make Sunday night format possible. Also, #2 comes with the 962 Longtail. What's not to like???

So I strongly vote for a move to PCars and whatever adjustments have to be made, be made in order to re-ignite Sunday night for most people that left when they moved to PS4. I know I'll be back once the series moves to a new-gen title, whatever it is, as there isn't better racing out there and better people to race with anywhere.
 
It is a tough decision for you guys right now, as summer approaches and attendance decreases you might be down to one division soon. I think it would depend on how many of us would go back to Sunday nights. Between Alex and Zii's PITS series and The Lobanaro Lounge, there are quite a few ex and current SNAILS between the two. With some of the current Sunday night guys ready to switch and others out there that are waiting for SNAIL to change, I believe you would likely attract more racers than you have now. It's the format that is going to be tough while waiting for the improvements coming with PCars2.
Alex brought up a good point regarding the default setting and how the cars can differentiate from one another. Tuning is really not a big deal to do and it makes the cars so much more enjoyable to drive. One idea, to keep tuning simple, would be to link a base tune that everybody agrees to use. It would have to be a gentleman's agreement, which I don't think would be an issue with the folks in SNAIL. It doesn't take long to input a tune either. In our Monday night series that's what we do, just to keep it simple and fun. We tried a non tuning series awhile back (Lessen's), we had fun but it just didn't work out.
On a personal note, I doubt I would return to a non tuning series and definitely not if it goes to GTS. PD is dead to me, and I doubt GTS will match PCars and AC on the console.
I don't envy the position you guys are in right now, but I hope you come up with something to keep SNAIL going.
 
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AC is not an option IMO.

So there are two possibilities. Although I am a fan of project cars I'm going to tackle this from a different angle, that being the big purple elephant. I've seen migration and cross-participation for what... a year and a half now and the overwhelming trend is that the newer sims seem to either be "love or hate it" by Sunday-ers. If SNAIL moves to PCars, then the body will have to adapt if they want to continue to enjoy the community experience we've all grown to appreciate. If there is too much fear that dislike for the game is too overwhelming, then you gamble and wait out for GTS, which is far more of an unknown.

@aerolite is correct that we do have some experience with the game and we have a good idea of its limitations to provide the same feel as Sunday. WRRC was tough because the intent was essentially to "shoot the middle". Not to be exactly like Sunday, but also to be approachable and not quite "full sim". Take that goal out of the equation and things become more feasible even with current game glitches. Pit stops and weather related issues are now irrelevant. The biggest hurdles being non-biased policing, lack of possible combos and "pay to play" DLC items for people to practice alone.

No matter what is done, a change to Sunday will be a major shakeup and it should not be a surprise that SNAIL will inevitably lose a couple simply due to unwillingness to adapt. PITS and Lobanero group have the ability to help make a change successful if the cards are played well.
 
Even tho the recent number of drivers are down, SNAIL is a great racing league. The idea of this thread shows the commitment this league has to providing top notch racing for all.

I think going to PS4 will be the future of this league. PS3 was great at the time,so was the sony walkman, I realize this may be a burden on some to have to change systems however we are all aware technology changes and so should the league.

I think Pcars is a better racing game than the dated GT6. With that being said, There are a few issues in Pcars which will make the running of the league a bit tougher. Also as Alex And Aero pointed out the cars in default set up are sometimes not equal. I myself prefer tuning. I understand why no tuning is a rule, however has the time come to also change the format of the league going forward? Tuning can make the game more enjoyable, the cars more fun to drive. In another league we have an agreement that the winner shares his tune at the end of each series. In most cases we end up sharing tunes for every race.

I was not chosen for the beta GTS, so I can not comment at this time.

I choose, PS4 and Pcars, full tuning. Look forward to Pcars2.

 
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There really isn't a clear direction forward. All options have limitations and drawbacks which will turn some away. I am starting to finally embrace pcars but it has a lot of issues that prevent me from being overly excited about it. I don't know much about AC because no one talks about it which tells me a lot about it. With pcars2 a couple months away why not wait until then? It seems weird to switch to an interim game for just 2 months. We wouldn't even have time to get things sorted out. For now i think the people who prefer pcars can race in PITS on Wednesdays and the people who prefer gt6 can stay on sunday until pcars2 releases. I mean it isn't as if there are tons of people over on pcars waiting for this. How many showed up in PITS last night? Last i saw there were 5 or 6 confirmed for the event. Who knows if we will ever have the numbers we once did. Maybe people have just lost interest in sim racing generally.
 
I was in the bathroom so I didn't have a chance to type it all out on my phone. Now I do.

I think SNAIL needs to adapt to Project Cars 2 when it comes out. I would say that we can adapt to PCars1 now as PITS has but the lack of a proper non-tuning system is probably a major turnoff for a lot of people. I don't mind it but a lot of rooms and classic cars (I drive with realistic aids) don't have ABS so you need to tune the brake pressure. This wouldn't be possible in a non-tuning room. We could have ABS be the only aid like it is on GT6.

So yea, I think we should make a prototype series on PCars to gauge interest and maybe get some new additions to the PCars Driver Roster. There are things that only GT6 has like the shorter qualifying starting from last corner and reverse grid races but that's not a game killer. How about something with a 5 minute qualifier and 15 minute races? There are enough cars to do single make races and not be bored for awhile. For the sake of interest maybe it'll be better to do one car for the night and change up tracks. This would give people time to get used to the car and learn throughout the course of the evening. I don't have any specific ideas past that but it's a start.
 
Also, there's a limited edition 1TB Gold PS4 going on sale for 250 but only from the 9th to 17th or something short like that. It's best to get the 1TB models, the next cheapest is the Pre-Owned Refurbished Call of Duty Edition for 280. It was 240 for awhile but they just raised it. No idea why.

Please post if you do or do not have a Playstation 4, if you do do not plan on getting one, and if you will or won't play Project Cars.
 
Please assign zero weight to my position, as Sunday has never worked for my schedule and that will most likely continue.

That said, I do enjoy the format, in particular the spec status with tuning prohibited as much as it can be. This factor alone has tempered my enthusiasm even for the GTS beta, that I was initially very excited about. Folks will clearly differ in opinions on this matter, and as such moving away from a concrete tuning prohibited format will drive away some people; but it will also likely attract others that would have not been interested in the current format. As well, while you may lost some of the folks without the resources(PS4, etc), you may gain folks who weren't active on PS3/GT and tap into an entirely new group of drivers.

The prospect of a platform move makes me recall the GT5-GT6 changeover. In that process, several folks were lost and several new folks were gained. That was with, by most measures, a less drastic change than what would be proposed here. GT6 had a lot of teething problems, and initially the quality of the rooms(connection/lag, screen graining/tearing, invisible glitches, grip loss, etc) was far below GT5. In fact, some of those issues have never been resolved, and as such some valued snails never returned. Some I know moved on to competing platforms at the time(PC/iceRacing), and some left sim racing. Unfortunately, there was no way to foresee how unprepared GT6 was at release, and with many discussions at the time circling round deteriorating entries; something had to be done. As it were, GT5 online support was pulled ~6 months later anyway, so even if the changeover was delayed until then the move would have still been to a less-reliable but perhaps more content-rich and fresher-looking software. IMO, GT5 at it's best, was better than GT6 from a pure organisational and driving perspective. GT6 brought better graphics, content, and some convenience with the club format later on, but clearly given the continued support of software like iceRacing and LFS; those aren't viewed as great limitations.

I certainly long for the interface and familiar organisation of a GT game allowing spec racing, private lobbies, custom parameters, etc, and patiently await GTwhatever. However, I understand the need to quell the bleeding here as the wider range of sim options dilute the driver pool and entries wane. Folks may notice that my two paragraphs above do not necessarily agree, and that each could be taken as both for and against a move now. That is not unintentional.

There is no easy answer. There is no doubt in my mind that a move to PS4 now would increase entry numbers. There is also no doubt that some folks would be lost. Some to find new pastures, some may hang around on GT6 for a bit, and some may come and drink beers on my yacht in GTA V hahaha. It is a risk. I suppose the decision should then arise from an assessment of what the potential reward might be over this potential risk. As suggested above, perhaps a pole to start.

Lastly, one or the other is not necessarily the only option. I'm not sure how many folks that still participate in Sundays on GT6 have a PS4 and Project Cars, nor am I aware of how much overlap there is. If you create a PCars Sunday series I would wager you would find entry numbers. If you cancel the GT6 Sunday series would those folks move immediately to PCars or would they move to another GT6 series, or another game? It almost might be beneficial to pilot a Sunday Pcars event while leaving the GT6 series intact, if the human resources exist to do so. This might allow a better read on the pulse here, and see if the Pcars series draws the entries for a few weeks, and where they draw from. If a pole is going to be opened, I would suggest using a method that can narrow the responses into various groups rather than a wholesale "Will you come race on Pcars?" Perhaps and open pole might be more appropriate, allowing you to see if the folks signing up for Sunday on Pcars are new folks, folks that left in the past, or folks still on GT6 Sundays now. If folks on GT6 aren't going to move yet, and there is enough support for a PCars Sunday(I think there is), perhaps if there are enough resources it may work to run both for a bit. Normally I would say without question, make the move that is going to be the best for the direction the leaders want for the club. Only because, as Whitey pointed out, this move would be from one soon to be obsolete software to another am I spitballing other options.

Feel free to disregard the lengthy concoction of letters and stuff above.
 
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The delay of GTS is pouring salt on SNAIL. After scouring all the interwebs (:)) I found that GTS will be released Dec 29th 2017 (if you believe that you have more faith than I.) It seems the majority feel that PCars is the way to go. Understandable due to the fact many of us race on that platform now however,as many have mentioned we will have struggles keeping SNAIL as no tuning spec racing series there. I'd be ok with SNAIL moving to PCars or PCars 2 for a period of time although there will be headaches with coordinating division rooms, standard room settings, replays, scoring...etc.

IF GTS , as a general release, will have communities, private lobbies and the ability to restrict tuning like GT6 has , I would like to see SNAIL move back to that environment.

(I predict GTSport will be forced to release sooner now that PCars 2 has a official release date)
 
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I agree with @Whitey093

I hate to say it and I don't mean to throw stones, but waiting this long to start talks of a transition has kinda made SNAILSs bed so to speak. Making a move to PC1 would be a waste of time and effort. The next 4 months should be spent ironing out a move to PC2 if that's the direction the league decides to go. Otherwise your talking about making the move to GTS whenever that happens. Problem is, I fear if Sunday decides to stick to GTS, it will need to move immediately upon release or risk losing too much interest to make a comeback. Momentum is a big factor and it's not on SNAIL's side at the moment. You would have to rebuild on the fly. I just don't know if there will be enough patience left by then.

Project Cars 2 is the safe bet and if we get SNAIL brass in lobbies together immediately we have a shot at having a solid plan of action and transition come 10/1.
 
Marcus Garvey
Please assign zero weight to my position, as Sunday has never worked for my schedule and that will most likely continue.

That said, I do enjoy the format, in particular the spec status with tuning prohibited as much as it can be. This factor alone has tempered my enthusiasm even for the GTS beta, that I was initially very excited about. Folks will clearly differ in opinions on this matter, and as such moving away from a concrete tuning prohibited format will drive away some people; but it will also likely attract others that would have not been interested in the current format. As well, while you may lost some of the folks without the resources(PS4, etc), you may gain folks who weren't active on PS3/GT and tap into an entirely new group of drivers.

The prospect of a platform move makes me recall the GT5-GT6 changeover. In that process, several folks were lost and several new folks were gained. That was with, by most measures, a less drastic change than what would be proposed here. GT6 had a lot of teething problems, and initially the quality of the rooms(connection/lag, screen graining/tearing, invisible glitches, grip loss, etc) was far below GT5. In fact, some of those issues have never been resolved, and as such some valued snails never returned. Some I know moved on to competing platforms at the time(PC/iceRacing), and some left sim racing. Unfortunately, there was no way to foresee how unprepared GT6 was at release, and with many discussions at the time circling round deteriorating entries; something had to be done. As it were, GT5 online support was pulled ~6 months later anyway, so even if the changeover was delayed until then the move would have still been to a less-reliable but perhaps more content-rich and fresher-looking software. IMO, GT5 at it's best, was better than GT6 from a pure organisational and driving perspective. GT6 brought better graphics, content, and some convenience with the club format later on, but clearly given the continued support of software like iceRacing and LFS; those aren't viewed as great limitations.

I certainly long for the interface and familiar organisation of a GT game allowing spec racing, private lobbies, custom parameters, etc, and patiently await GTwhatever. However, I understand the need to quell the bleeding here as the wider range of sim options dilute the driver pool and entries wane. Folks may notice that my two paragraphs above do not necessarily agree, and that each could be taken as both for and against a move now. That is not unintentional.

There is no easy answer. There is no doubt in my mind that a move to PS4 now would increase entry numbers. There is also no doubt that some folks would be lost. Some to find new pastures, some may hang around on GT6 for a bit, and some may come and drink beers on my yacht in GTA V hahaha. It is a risk. I suppose the decision should then arise from an assessment of what the potential reward might be over this potential risk. As suggested above, perhaps a pole to start.

Lastly, one or the other is not necessarily the only option. I'm not sure how many folks that still participate in Sundays on GT6 have a PS4 and Project Cars, nor am I aware of how much overlap there is. If you create a PCars Sunday series I would wager you would find entry numbers. If you cancel the GT6 Sunday series would those folks move immediately to PCars or would they move to another GT6 series, or another game? It almost might be beneficial to pilot a Sunday Pcars event while leaving the GT6 series intact, if the human resources exist to do so. This might allow a better read on the pulse here, and see if the Pcars series draws the entries for a few weeks, and where they draw from. If a pole is going to be opened, I would suggest using a method that can narrow the responses into various groups rather than a wholesale "Will you come race on Pcars?" Perhaps and open pole might be more appropriate, allowing you to see if the folks signing up for Sunday on Pcars are new folks, folks that left in the past, or folks still on GT6 Sundays now. If folks on GT6 aren't going to move yet, and there is enough support for a PCars Sunday(I think there is), perhaps if there are enough resources it may work to run both for a bit. Normally I would say without question, make the move that is going to be the best for the direction the leaders want for the club. Only because, as Whitey pointed out, this move would be from one soon to be obsolete software to another am I spitballing other options.

Feel free to disregard the lengthy concoction of letters and stuff above.
Click to expand...
Just wanted to congratulate you on a well written, thought off and explained post.
I agree with what Mr. Garvey that a try out Sunday series on a PS4 title could help iron out whatever niggles we'll find.
Also, I know a tune makes cars more driveable, but I'd like to see it remain spec, as I never have time (nor the touch) to tune and would rather compete on equal footing, as if the car drives poorly, we all get the same poor experience and the voting system solves that problem.
 
I just want to quickly chime in, without stalling the discussion. The SNAIL BOD has been discussing what to do for many months. We have gone back and forth about what our best options are and still have ideas, but the purpose of this thread is to get more input. Which everyone is doing and we appreciate this greatly!
 
I'm on a quick lunch break and will read all the replies tonight, but PCARS 2 for me, as of now.

Not sure if anyone's talked about it, but what about the damage setting? The reason we have PITS & LOBANS room is the damage setting. Thoughts?
 
Those details need to stay as they are in the current Sunday series I feel. Anything that can be done to provide the same general feel should probably be used.

Spec cars
Clear/fixed weather
No damage
Short races
No pit stops

Anything that changes should be a result of a need due to game limitations. Otherwise it becomes a new series, rather than a transition.
 
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