So why aren't the tires fixed?

[Samus]

To me the problem does lie in the fact there are only three, generic tyre models in the game whilst in the real world there are hundreds of different constructions and compounds. So it's all very well saying for example 'soft racing tyre' in GT, but soft in relation to what? F1 soft tyres? Endurance soft tyres? GT racing softs? Because in real life they're all different, I'm not going to look it up but I assume Kaz would have run the Ring 24 hours race on 'hard' tyres at the weekend. The compound and endurance of those tyres will be completely different to the hard tyres used in F1, the silver ones (and even the hard tyres before Pirelli turned up with their deforming tyres). But in GT5, they are the same, they give the same grip and endurance and are only affected by the power of the car and how it puts it down. They don't offer different levels of grip and endurance from the start, as they do in real life.

So that's where we need changes as far as I'm concerned, as well as a much improved tyre model all around. A much bigger expansion on the tyres, so when you go to the shop and buy 'racing soft' tyres for your Honda Accord touring car you get very different tyres to a 'racing soft' tyre you buy for a Peugeot LMP car.

 

[JLawrence]

To me the problem does lie in the fact there are only three, generic tyre models in the game whilst in the real world there are hundreds of different constructions and compounds. So it's all very well saying for example 'soft racing tyre' in GT, but soft in relation to what? F1 soft tyres? Endurance soft tyres? GT racing softs? Because in real life they're all different, I'm not going to look it up but I assume Kaz would have run the Ring 24 hours race on 'hard' tyres at the weekend. The compound and endurance of those tyres will be completely different to the hard tyres used in F1, the silver ones (and even the hard tyres before Pirelli turned up with their deforming tyres). But in GT5, they are the same, they give the same grip and endurance and are only affected by the power of the car and how it puts it down. They don't offer different levels of grip and endurance from the start, as they do in real life.

So that's where we need changes as far as I'm concerned, as well as a much improved tyre model all around. A much bigger expansion on the tyres, so when you go to the shop and buy 'racing soft' tyres for your Honda Accord touring car you get very different tyres to a 'racing soft' tyre you buy for a Peugeot LMP car.

I think that would be quite awesome to see implemented into the game. As cool as it would be to drive my Fiat 500 on Formula 1 grade tires I just don't see why that should be an option. Now, a class based set of tires could be pretty awesome. That way we could presumably have the best of all worlds. A pretty grippy SCCA style tire that you would see at any given race weekend, for our street cars, while the purpose built race cars get their reflective slicks, then the F1 and LMPs could have their endurance setups.

Doesn't seem like too much to throw into the next update, but I could certainly dig it.

 

[MSTER232]

Bug Fixes

* Fixed a problem where Karts and Ferrari F1 cars could drive together with other cars in the Lounge
* Fixed a rarely occurring issue in which the system freezes when exiting the lounge
* Fixed a problem where you could purchase tires for the 125 SPL racing Kart in the tuning parts shop (Tires purchased previously will now become invalid)
* Fixed a problem in which the straight-line stability of the Lancer Evolution X was decreased when using a steering wheel controller
* Fixed an issue where wrong color dirt and snow tire wheels were displayed on some cars when the wheels were changed
* Fixed delay when launching electric cars using controllers other than a steering wheel controller pedal
* Fixed a rarely occurring issue where the system would freeze at the end of a race
* Fixed an issue where it becomes difficult to hear your own car when driving with other race cars in online races, etc.

They fixed an issue where you could drive F1 cars and go carts with other people, but they don't fix the tires? Good job PD. I like how they listed that it was a "rarely" occurring issue when you freeze. It happens to me a lot in GT5.

Do you mind explaining in more detail what the problem is with the tyres. In my eyes there is nothing wrong with the tyres, they are fine how they are.

 

[McClarenDesign]

Do you mind explaining in more detail what the problem is with the tyres. In my eyes there is nothing wrong with the tyres, they are fine how they are.

I agree.

 

[Snakebitten]

No it isn't.

Read up to what JLawrence and snowgt have posted. That is constructive and logical.

Your opinion is obviously biased seeing what you chose to quote from my post. Biased opinions like in your post means nothing to me. The tire and driver system is woefully lacking in any type of realism. Go ahead and quote "woeful@ and claim not logical etc lol.

Is it logical that in real life racing tires, even the softs, last much longer than in this game? Is it logical that drivers can go hours and hours and still have endurance in real life but in this game 15-30 mins and your lvl 40 Bob is tanked? Is it logical? No.

 

[McClarenDesign]

Your obvious biased opinion seeing what you chose to quote from my post. Biased opinions like in your post means nothing to me. The tire and driver system is woefully lacking in any type of realism. Go ahead and quote "woeful@ and claim not logical etc lol.

Is it logical that in real life racing tires, even the softs, last much longer than in this game? Is it logical that drivers can go hours and hours and still have endurance in real life but in this game 15-30 mins and your lvl 40 Bob is tanked? Is it logical? No.

What bias did Famine show? I think your expectations of realism are out of alignment.

 

[Exorcet]

To me the problem does lie in the fact there are only three, generic tyre models in the game whilst in the real world there are hundreds of different constructions and compounds. So it's all very well saying for example 'soft racing tyre' in GT, but soft in relation to what? F1 soft tyres? Endurance soft tyres? GT racing softs? Because in real life they're all different, I'm not going to look it up but I assume Kaz would have run the Ring 24 hours race on 'hard' tyres at the weekend. The compound and endurance of those tyres will be completely different to the hard tyres used in F1, the silver ones (and even the hard tyres before Pirelli turned up with their deforming tyres). But in GT5, they are the same, they give the same grip and endurance and are only affected by the power of the car and how it puts it down. They don't offer different levels of grip and endurance from the start, as they do in real life.

So that's where we need changes as far as I'm concerned, as well as a much improved tyre model all around. A much bigger expansion on the tyres, so when you go to the shop and buy 'racing soft' tyres for your Honda Accord touring car you get very different tyres to a 'racing soft' tyre you buy for a Peugeot LMP car.

Exactly. And included in that new tire model should be the ability to mismatch cars and tires, for example using slicks that are too hard for a light car and being unable to warm them up, or slicks that are too soft and end up overheating. This could put dynamic weather to good use as the track surface would heat up and cool off during the race, and settings such as suspension and downforce would change your tire choice.

I think that would be quite awesome to see implemented into the game. As cool as it would be to drive my Fiat 500 on Formula 1 grade tires I just don't see why that should be an option. Now, a class based set of tires could be pretty awesome. That way we could presumably have the best of all worlds. A pretty grippy SCCA style tire that you would see at any given race weekend, for our street cars, while the purpose built race cars get their reflective slicks, then the F1 and LMPs could have their endurance setups.

Doesn't seem like too much to throw into the next update, but I could certainly dig it.

There is no reason for Fiat 500's with F1 tires to not be an option. The only restrictions we should be given are realistic ones. Maybe if there's no F1 tire that exists that can fit a 500's wheel, then don't allow it. However if we can modify cars, then it would be nice to have the option to increase the Fiat's wheel size and put F1 tires on, just because.

Limiting options shouldn't be done without good reason because that just takes away from the game.

 

[Famine]

Your opinion is obviously biased seeing what you chose to quote from my post.

I chose to quote the incredibly unconstructive terms from your "constructive" post. Simply abusing things is not constructive. Suggesting why they are lacking and how to fix it is constructive.

You've just abused things. I've pointed out where things are lacking and suggested how to fix them. In this thread. So what's my bias?

Is it logical that in real life racing tires, even the softs, last much longer than in this game?

Yes. There is no reference point for what a real life tyre is compared to what a tyre in the game is. This is something that is lacking and is something four members have offered constructive thoughts on how to fix.

Is it logical that drivers can go hours and hours and still have endurance in real life but in this game 15-30 mins and your lvl 40 Bob is tanked?

Yes. There is no reference point for what a real life driver is compared to what a "Level 40" driver in the game is.

 

[MSTER232]

To me the problem does lie in the fact there are only three, generic tyre models in the game whilst in the real world there are hundreds of different constructions and compounds. So it's all very well saying for example 'soft racing tyre' in GT, but soft in relation to what? F1 soft tyres? Endurance soft tyres? GT racing softs? Because in real life they're all different, I'm not going to look it up but I assume Kaz would have run the Ring 24 hours race on 'hard' tyres at the weekend. The compound and endurance of those tyres will be completely different to the hard tyres used in F1, the silver ones (and even the hard tyres before Pirelli turned up with their deforming tyres). But in GT5, they are the same, they give the same grip and endurance and are only affected by the power of the car and how it puts it down. They don't offer different levels of grip and endurance from the start, as they do in real life.

So that's where we need changes as far as I'm concerned, as well as a much improved tyre model all around. A much bigger expansion on the tyres, so when you go to the shop and buy 'racing soft' tyres for your Honda Accord touring car you get very different tyres to a 'racing soft' tyre you buy for a Peugeot LMP car.

That is a very good and valid point that you have made there, but I'm afraid that if this was so then they would be spending ages doing the tyre physics for each and every tyre brand/compound/structure. And they also want Gran Turismo 5 to appeal to a wider audience than just hardcore sim racers so it's only best if they simplify it to 3 generic compounds per tyre type.

 

[Samus]

That is a very good and valid point that you have made there, but I'm afraid that if this was so then they would be spending ages doing the tyre physics for each and every tyre brand/compound/structure.

They wouldn't need to go into that much detail, maybe half a dozen or so different varieties of each compound. They don't need to get into extreme details like different manufacturers.

And they also want Gran Turismo 5 to appeal to a wider audience than just hardcore sim racers so it's only best if they simplify it to 3 generic compounds per tyre type.

To the end user nothing would change, they would still only be buying one of three compounds, they would just be slightly different in use across different cars.

 

[JLawrence]

Your opinion is obviously biased seeing what you chose to quote from my post. Biased opinions like in your post means nothing to me. The tire and driver system is woefully lacking in any type of realism. Go ahead and quote "woeful@ and claim not logical etc lol.

Is it logical that in real life racing tires, even the softs, last much longer than in this game? Is it logical that drivers can go hours and hours and still have endurance in real life but in this game 15-30 mins and your lvl 40 Bob is tanked? Is it logical? No.

I hate to see anyone ostracized in this forum, so please lose the pompous attitude and just stick with your logic. I can promise that people will receive what you have to say much better.

Exactly. And included in that new tire model should be the ability to mismatch cars and tires, for example using slicks that are too hard for a light car and being unable to warm them up, or slicks that are too soft and end up overheating. This could put dynamic weather to good use as the track surface would heat up and cool off during the race, and settings such as suspension and downforce would change your tire choice.

There is no reason for Fiat 500's with F1 tires to not be an option. The only restrictions we should be given are realistic ones. Maybe if there's no F1 tire that exists that can fit a 500's wheel, then don't allow it. However if we can modify cars, then it would be nice to have the option to increase the Fiat's wheel size and put F1 tires on, just because.

Limiting options shouldn't be done without good reason because that just takes away from the game.

I see where you're coming from, but from the sheer complexity of adding all of those elements I don't know how feasible that is.

That is a very good and valid point that you have made there, but I'm afraid that if this was so then they would be spending ages doing the tyre physics for each and every tyre brand/compound/structure. And they also want Gran Turismo 5 to appeal to a wider audience than just hardcore sim racers so it's only best if they simplify it to 3 generic compounds per tyre type.

That's why I think making 5 or so different sets of generic tires for the different types of cars could be a vast improvement. I mean with that if you were to add horsepower, cut weight, etc. they could throw in the ability to bump up your street car to the racing class. I mean that way you'd still only have the generic tires to choose from so there wouldn't be any real confusion in that regard to those who aren't serious racers, and the serious racers could have the tire compounds that better reflect what their cars would realistically be capable of.

 

[Snakebitten]

I chose to quote the incredibly unconstructive terms from your "constructive" post. Simply abusing things is not constructive. Suggesting why they are lacking and how to fix it is constructive.

Oh so all I did was abuse things. I didnt offer anything about patterning it after real life drivers and tire wear. lol. I guess you just shut down when you read the overly discriptive words against PD. No worries. Ill post without the discriptive words so you can soak in the many other words in the post

You've just abused things. I've pointed out where things are lacking and suggested how to fix them. In this thread. So what's my bias.

Your bias was that you disregarded everything I said simply because of my usage of overly discriptive terms to show my dislike for PD's programming. So you then just focused on those words instead of the whole post. No sweat. Ill respond without the words you dont like.

Yes. There is no reference point for what a real life tyre is compared to what a tyre in the game is. This is something that is lacking and is something four members have offered constructive thoughts on how to fix.

No reference point? They put enduro races in the game for instance and you see no reference point in real life. Since they have Le Mans race in the game how about patterning the tire wear closely according to the real life counterparts. The LMP etc cars will do way more laps per tire than this game allows on any compound. Most racing series have hard, medium and soft tires. Its not hard to implement. It doesnt have to be exact just be close to the overall wear of these kind of tires. Use this for the whole game. Take the average laps for each type of tire, by each type of class car and pattern the tire wear after that. Or just add the weight, camber etc penalties depending on car to the programming. Simple. Pick and example series and do it that way. It would be better than what we have now.

Yes. There is no reference point for what a real life driver is compared to what a "Level 40" driver in the game is.[/color][/b]

Again Le Mans drivers, F1 drivers, Nascar drivers etc run from anywhere from an hour and a half to 4+ hours a stint. Pattern the drivers somewhere in the middle since this is a game. A Bob should at least be able to go one hour and a half or more wihout depleation. No need to get overly scientific. What PD has programmed is path....[oops....keep reading and ignore that word lol].....not even close ton the realm of reality. Also they age your driver to the point of retirement even if he isnt used everyday. So you literally have 3 weeks or so before your bobs decline. Im not a fan of that as well.

1. Set tire wear to reflect what hard, medium, soft wear is for Le Mans series based on the average of the different car classes. LMPs class, GT etc. No one runs "one lap specials" in an endurance race so obviously the Racing Softs in GT5 are no where near a simulation of what real life racing soft tires are. This is so simple to me I just dont understand why it isnt implemented this way. But everhones opinion is different so I digress.

2. Driver depleation/retirement - So obvious to me. The average driver can go MUCH longer than a Bob in GT5 before they are approaching depleation. Just look at Nascar, Le Mans, F1 etc. Give a reasonable simulation of driver ability by at least giving the Bobs 1 hour and a half before depleation or pattern it off of how many laps a driver does on average in a Le Mans race. The current programming isnt even trying to simulate realism hence my problem with it. Retirement needs to be done away with or give us an on/off switch so we can choose as there.

 

[CodeRedR51]

Again Le Mans drivers, F1 drivers, Nascar drivers etc run from anywhere from an hour and a half to 4+ hours a stint.

Not without changing tires...

 

[Snakebitten]

I hate to see anyone ostracized in this forum, so please lose the pompous attitude and just stick with your logic. I can promise that people will receive what you have to say much better.

What????LOL. You get pompous from my post LOL. My original post wasn't directed to anyone here except PD. I got told my post was worthless but Im pompous?

Not without changing tires...

Huh?? Obviously. The driver stuff is separate from the tires.

 

[Famine]

Oh so all I did was abuse things.

No. What you did was lay out terms of abuse.

I didnt offer anything about patterning it after real life drivers and tire wear.

No. You asked what was wrong with them doing it.

I guess you just shut down when you read the overly discriptive words against PD.

Nothing to do with who it was against, everything to do with what you said. You laid out terms of abuse and then claimed you were being constructive and logical - neither is true. Abuse is never constructive.

Your bias was that you disregarded everything I said simply because of my usage of overly discriptive terms to show my dislike for PD's programming.

Thus revealing your bias, rather than mine... Disregarding self-proclaimed constructive comments that are merely veils for abuse is not bias.

You'll notice I and others have stated what we think is wrong - without abusive terms - and offered our thoughts on paths to better implementations. We do this free from bias (for example, tyre modelling is superior in FM4 than in GT5).

No reference point? They put enduro races in the game for instance and you see no reference point in real life.

There is no reference point in real life for what a Racing Hard tyre is in Gran Turismo. If you believe otherwise, please tell me the exact tyre make, grade, friction coefficient and wear coefficient of a GT5 Racing Hard compound.

You cannot. We have no reference point for what the tyre names mean in real life. Claiming that the Racing Hard degrades too quickly compared to a real life "hard" tyre requires knowing what real life tyre it's supposed to simulate. We don't have that. All we know is that compared to tyres run at, for example, the 24 Heures du Mans, the GT5 Racing Hard tyre offers more grip and degrades more quickly (the two often going together like that).

This is an issue, but not the one you - or the thread-starter - think it is. The issue isn't that the tyres are unrealistic because they grip too much and wear too much, but that they are not simulations of the real tyres. They grip and wear exactly as they should, because they are not simulations of the real tyres.

This should be readily apparent. GT's "Racing Hard" tyres go on Le Mans cars, DTM cars, GT300 cars, rally cars, F1 cars... what one make/grade/compound can you possibly get in all of those applications? The compound supplied to F1 in reality (by Pirelli - but by Bridgestone and Michelin for the F1 cars in GT5) is utterly ludicrous and worlds - and millions of dollars - apart from what even top-end factory LM Prototypes have fitted, which are, in turn, way out from touring car rubber. It's a completely different application - F1 tyres sidewalls form 30% of the suspension travel on the car, but less than 5% on an LMP - but in GT5 it's a unified genero-tyre. It cannot possibly be matched to a single, real world tyre and so comparison between this single genero-tyre and any specific, real tyre in any specific, real application is moot.


The rest of your post is reasonable, sensible and constructive - and what several of us have already been talking about.

 

[Exorcet]

I see where you're coming from, but from the sheer complexity of adding all of those elements I don't know how feasible that is.

The good news is that a higher fidelity tire model should be all you need. Right now tires seem to have two or three main parameters, grip, heat capacity, and life. Those three seem to be independent of the car. To get a system like the one I want, you just need to add car dependence. This is something that [I hope] higher end sims like iRacing do, and I'm pretty sure that Forza does this as well, so I think it should be doable. If not in GT5, then in the next game. Once car dependence is taken into account to a realistic enough degree, you will automatically get varying optimums for grip, tire life, etc.

That's why I think making 5 or so different sets of generic tires for the different types of cars could be a vast improvement. I mean with that if you were to add horsepower, cut weight, etc. they could throw in the ability to bump up your street car to the racing class. I mean that way you'd still only have the generic tires to choose from so there wouldn't be any real confusion in that regard to those who aren't serious racers, and the serious racers could have the tire compounds that better reflect what their cars would realistically be capable of.

Choosing between more realistic tires with many more options could be more confusing for people, but I don't think it will make things overly complex. New players who aren't very familiar with cars will probably be as confused by the suspension settings as they would be by the tires. PD could also lessen the difficulty of finding the right tire by providing adequate descriptions and perhaps some kind of performance indicator (I really think all tuning parts should give an idea of what they will do before you add them to your car). For tires, a simple one would be lateral grip, which the game should be able to calculate based on your current car's setup without actually having to load the car on a track and running it around. Forza has done this since at least FM3 so I think that GT should be able to use it as well.

 

[Snakebitten]

HUGE wall of over-thinking text

If this were a thesis then your replies would be better served. It's a game so I prefer the KISS method hence my arguments to pattern it after the averages of a series like Le Mans. Do you think PD's methodology for programming tire/driver wear even remotely took into account all the variables we all know exist in real life??? The softs dying in just half lap depending on track length tells me NO. that's why I came up with the simple approach of patterning it off of averages in a series like Le Mans since the game is influenced by it quite a bit.

To approach it from your perspective would never get anything done as there are just too many variables to account for and implement. It's a game so at least it can simulate some of that reality. The current driver/tire programming doesnt resemble an serious effort at realism IMHO. There are I'm sure better suggestions but it has to be simple.

Edit. Nevermind.

 

[Famine]

If this were a thesis then your replies would be better served.

Not really. I've written enough of them and none contained BB code nor anything in indigo.

Intelligent discourse often involves long statements.

It's a game so I prefer the KISS method

Well now, here's a problem.

If it's a game, notions of simulating or emulating reality are moot. If it's a simulation, they aren't. It turns out that, right now, it's a game so it's kept simple as you suggest. Three grades of genero-tyres which get incrementally better grip and higher wear rates as they get softer. Pretty simple.

If you're going to call for faithful replication of reality, you can't keep it simple.

Do you think PD's methodolevents tire/driver wear even remotely took into account all the variables we all know exist in real life??? The softs dying in just half lap depending on track length tells me NO.

They don't need to. It's a game, remember? Keeping it simple means not taking into account the variables we know exist in real life. Half a lap of what anyway? I can run two laps of the 'Ring 24hr in just about any car on racing softs. Incidentally some friends of mine run a real race car with real very soft compound slicks that wouldn't last half a real lap of Circuit de la Sarthe...


But again, it's beside the point. GT5 Racing Softs are not any real world tyre. They are GT5 Racing Softs. Their wear rate and grip levels are exactly right - by definition.

To approach it from your perspective would never get anything done as there are just too many variables to account for and implement.

Not at all. My perspective is amazingly simple and PD wouldn't have to calculate or patch a thing - but not something that can be achieved in GT5, I suspect. It also has the merit of being (a hitheto overlooked) part of the ethos of the series.

It's a game so at least it can simulate some of that reality. The current driver/tire programming doesnt resemble an serious effort at realism IMHO.

Which should, again, be readily apparent. There is no single racing tyre that can go on every car - but there is in GT5. There is no such thing as a level 40 driver - but there is in GT5. They are what they are and without any possible reference point to reality it is not possible to say they are unrealistic.

P.S. I'm touched you approved of the rest of my post j/k

I didn't say I approved of it, just that it was reasonable, sensible and constructive. See how much better rational conversations go when abuse is left out?

 

[Tornado]

Again Le Mans drivers, F1 drivers, Nascar drivers etc run from anywhere from an hour and a half to 4+ hours a stint.

Your average NASCAR race is generally around 4 hours long. I'm pretty sure they change tires in them at least once.




Also, because none of the LMP/Group C cars in the game have specifications that are accurate, tire wear between the two cannot be directly compared in addition to for the reasons Famine has been saying.

 

[Famine]

Also, because none of the LMP/Group C cars in the game have specifications that are accurate, tire wear between the two cannot be directly compared in addition to for the reasons Famine has been saying.

I'm sure some of them are nearly right, but yes, there's a lot of strange fudgery going on with those power figures. Not to mention that we drive faster in the game (as expected) or what happens when everything in the game has a 0 front toe and a +0.2 rear toe, then people tune the cars to drive differently and then stick driving aids on...


There's a further problem with just changing the genero-tyre wear rate to suit Le Mans double-stints - I alluded to it in my apparently overthought text wall. Say we got PD to "fix" the wear rate on your Racing Hards so that you could pull a double stint and go 25 laps on a single set. Your tyres now last 212 miles and still have enough meat to get you to box safely. Brilliant, it's fixed!

Problem is that your genero-tyres are now simulating a set of 18", 40 profile, 14" wide Michelin LMP class slicks. Your genero-tyres also have to go on a Formula One car and simulate a set of 15", 80 profile, 16" wide Pirelli F1 slicks - and when was the last time you watched a set of those suckers run 212 miles (given that an F1 race cannot exceed 186 miles and the tyres are designed to wear sufficiently to require teams to make at least one stop for a second grade)?

Changing genero-tyre wear to more suit one race breaks how they behave for all other races. Bringing in real tyres does not.

 

[Bottoz]

Circle track guys will change tires well before they've lost their grip or have been heat cycled out. In fact, I have road race friends that get single use take off Hoosier slicks from circle track guys, and use those tires for 1/2 a season of road course racing.

IMO, as I've said before, GT5s 'Racing' tires wear too quickly and have too much grip as compared to real life comp racing slick tires.

 

[Samus]

I'm sure some of them are nearly right, but yes, there's a lot of strange fudgery going on with those power figures. Not to mention that we drive faster in the game (as expected) or what happens when everything in the game has a 0 front toe and a +0.2 rear toe, then people tune the cars to drive differently and then stick driving aids on...


There's a further problem with just changing the genero-tyre wear rate to suit Le Mans double-stints - I alluded to it in my apparently overthought text wall. Say we got PD to "fix" the wear rate on your Racing Hards so that you could pull a double stint and go 25 laps on a single set. Your tyres now last 212 miles and still have enough meat to get you to box safely. Brilliant, it's fixed!

Problem is that your genero-tyres are now simulating a set of 18", 40 profile, 14" wide Michelin LMP class slicks. Your genero-tyres also have to go on a Formula One car and simulate a set of 15", 80 profile, 16" wide Pirelli F1 slicks - and when was the last time you watched a set of those suckers run 212 miles (given that an F1 race cannot exceed 186 miles and the tyres are designed to wear sufficiently to require teams to make at least one stop for a second grade)?

Changing genero-tyre wear to more suit one race breaks how they behave for all other races. Bringing in real tyres does not.

Very well put, which is why what you, I and others have said needs to be done.

 

[Snakebitten]

Your average NASCAR race is generally around 4 hours long. I'm pretty sure they change tires in them at least once.


Also, because none of the LMP/Group C cars in the game have specifications that are accurate, tire wear between the two cannot be directly compared in addition to for the reasons Famine has been saying.

You are the second guy that is implying that my posts somehow indicate a lack of understanding about tires stops. Im talking about driver stints NOT tire stints in the instance of the drivers endurance. The tires and the drivers endurance are not linked in my argument. My goodness. Just because a driver pits in for tires doesn't mean he gets out. I guess what I'm typing and what you guys are reading ain't one and the same. I have to reread and make sure what I wrote earlier as some of it was on my iphone at work.

I did not indicate that you follow to the letter real life variables. I simply stated to chose a series and pattern the dynamics after the averages. It would be better than what is implemented by PD at the moment. You will never get exact reality but what is given in the game for tire/driver wear is not even a close facsimile of real life.

Not really. I've written enough of them and none contained BB code nor anything in indigo.

Intelligent discourse often involves long statements.



Well now, here's a problem.

If it's a game, notions of simulating or emulating reality are moot. If it's a simulation, they aren't. It turns out that, right now, it's a game so it's kept simple as you suggest. Three grades of genero-tyres which get incrementally better grip and higher wear rates as they get softer. Pretty simple.

If you're going to call for faithful replication of reality, you can't keep it simple.



They don't need to. It's a game, remember? Keeping it simple means not taking into account the variables we know exist in real life. Half a lap of what anyway? I can run two laps of the 'Ring 24hr in just about any car on racing softs. Incidentally some friends of mine run a real race car with real very soft compound slicks that wouldn't last half a real lap of Circuit de la Sarthe...


But again, it's beside the point. GT5 Racing Softs are not any real world tyre. They are GT5 Racing Softs. Their wear rate and grip levels are exactly right - by definition.



Not at all. My perspective is amazingly simple and PD wouldn't have to calculate or patch a thing - but not something that can be achieved in GT5, I suspect. It also has the merit of being (a hitheto overlooked) part of the ethos of the series.



Which should, again, be readily apparent. There is no single racing tyre that can go on every car - but there is in GT5. There is no such thing as a level 40 driver - but there is in GT5. They are what they are and without any possible reference point to reality it is not possible to say they are unrealistic.



I didn't say I approved of it, just that it was reasonable, sensible and constructive. See how much better rational conversations go when abuse is left out?

Oh brother. Believe what you wish about your over-verbiage and intelligence. It can also point to someone else other than intelligence.

Anyway, this issue need not be as complicated to fix as you and some others have made it out to be. Pick a series and use the averages in terms of tire wear and driver stinting to get a better implementation that what is in the game currently. All the variables don't matter just that the basic implementation of wear and driver stamina. Nascar drivers go for 4 sometimes 5 hours straight. Le Mans drivers double and in the past triple stinted before. F1 guys go for about 1 hour and a half etc not that they couldn't do more. Even if you just took the least of those three to pattern Bobs after, F1 drivers, you will still have a better stamina level than what is in the game.

It wont be exact example of EVERY driver from every racing series but it will be closer to reality than the games default setting.

Same for the tires. Obviously the soft tires in Le Mans, F1 etc last for much much more than half a lap on a lot of tracks as they do in this game. I'm sure the same for the medium and hard as well. So just implement a closer to average reality wear rating for all three tire compounds in the game and let it be. Simple fix without this committee going on and on and on and on and.............

 

[Famine]

Oh brother.

Nope. He's at Monaco right now.

Believe what you wish about your over-verbiage and intelligence. It can also point to someone else other than intelligence.

Aaand we're back to square one.

Incidentally, it's not "over-verbiage" (tautology: "verbiage" means excessive or superfluous verbosity) - every word was required for the point and to no excess.

Anyway, this issue need not be as complicated to fix as you and some others have made it out to be.

My suggestion is, still, massively simple and in line with the ethos of the series.

Pick a series and use the averages in terms of tire wear and driver stinting to get a better implementation that what is in the game currently.

Nope. You'll get one series right and make all the others worse.

All the variables don't matter just that the basic implementation of wear and driver stamina. Nascar drivers go for 4 sometimes 5 hours straight. Le Mans drivers double and in the past triple stinted before. F1 guys go for about 1 hour and a half etc. Even if you just took the least of those three to pattern Bobs after, F1 drivers, you will still have a better stamina level than what is in the game.

It wont be exact example of EVERY driver from every racing series but it will be closer to reality than the games default setting.

Is a Level 40 Bob a NASCAR Nationwide driver? Is he a Le Mans driver? Is he an F1 driver?

No. He's a level 40 Bob. No real world reference.

Same for the tires. Obviously the soft tires in Le Mans, F1 etc last for much much more than half a lap as they do in this game. I'm sure the same for the medium and hard as well. So just implement a closer to average reality wear rating for all three tire compounds in the game and let it be.

And then you break DTM (no stops), GT500/300 (no stops), F1 (no stops) and in fact every series other than the one you picked.

It is impossible to get closer-to-reality tyre wear in every series represented in GT5 with three generic tyre grades that do not reflect real tyres. An F1 tyre is supposed to be fit to burst after 60 miles, whereas a Le Mans tyre won't hit canvas until 300 but they are the same tyre in GT5. No matter how you try and fix it one way, you will break it worse the other. This is why "change the wear rate of the generotyres" is not a solution to the problem.

Simple fix without this committee going on and on and on and on and.............

Your "fix" is not simple. It's simplistic and breaks more than it mends.

 

[amar212]

I just have to say this is my personal Thread of the Week™ on GTP.

I will not participate by any comprehesive mean in this, but...

Alfred Hitchcock's Vertigo, allways have been, always will be

BTW Best tyres for the Ferrari F1 cars are Comfort Hard. However, that is just my non-humble opinion.

 

[Jav]

Not without changing tires...

Actually Audi penta stinted their tires on LeMans 2011, that's 5 stints on a set of tires! 4+ hrs of balls to the walls driving on the limit on the same set of tires! No tire in this game will ever come remotely close to that.

 

[Patrick]

Usually Audi does 4 stints on tires, but they did 5 last year which was incredible.

 

[Snakebitten]

Nope. He's at Monaco right now.

Tell him I said hi.

Aaand we're back to square one.

Incidentally, it's not "over-verbiage" (tautology: "verbiage" means excessive or superfluous verbosity) - every word was required for the point and to no excess.

In your opinion. I found it pointless and excessive except to try to win an argument.

My suggestion is, still, massively simple and in line with the ethos of the series.

PD didn't care about the Ethos of the series when they implemented this programming for driver/tire wear did they? I don't see them implementing anything but an overly simplistic fix across the board hence my suggestions.

Nope. You'll get one series right and make all the others worse.

At least it would be better than what we have now and its so simple that even a cave Kaz can do it. Sorry that was bad attempt at humor. Ahem..Moving on.

Is a Level 40 Bob a NASCAR Nationwide driver? Is he a Le Mans driver? Is he an F1 driver?

No. He's a level 40 Bob. No real world reference.

Again. This is PD. It seems they didnt put too much thought into some aspect of the game in the first place. But you have Nascar drivers that have done F1, Le Mans etc and vice versa so a driver from one series can adapt to what another series driver can do? Simply making the Bobs last for at least an hour before full depletion would be closer to reality than what we have now. Even amature racer drive at a good level for longer than a lvl 40 Bob will last.

And then you break DTM (no stops), GT500/300 (no stops), F1 (no stops) and in fact every series other than the one you picked.

Are the laps in those series as long as the laps in there respective series in real life? We don't really have an F1 series. Aren't DTM races longer than the ones in GT5? Also tire wear doesnt have to be excessively good. Just better than what we have now to be a little closer to overall reality. Again what series runs soft tires that are done in 1 lap? If the tires wear is increased across the board to a better variable that takes into account the different series in the game it would not break the series. No one wants soft tires to last 30 laps. But it should last more than half to 1 lap dont you think?

It is impossible to get closer-to-reality tyre wear in every series represented in GT5 with three generic tyre grades that do not reflect real tyres. An F1 tyre is supposed to be fit to burst after 60 miles, whereas a Le Mans tyre won't hit canvas until 300 but they are the same tyre in GT5. No matter how you try and fix it one way, you will break it worse the other. This is why "change the wear rate of the generotyres" is not a solution to the problem.

You are assuming I don't know what you are talking about. Simple fix is to do an across the board fix like I suggested because that is the best you are going to get from PD. Even if its not complete it will be better than what it is now. Im by no means saying my suggestion is the end all but I'm basing my suggestion on what it seems PD would be willing to do. Nothing past overly simple will get implemented in GT5 at this stage it seems to me. To believe anything major will be done after everything PD has done so far is to set yourself up for continued disappointment. Anything good like what some have suggested will probably be for GT6, at least I hope.

Your "fix" is not simple. It's simplistic and breaks more than it mends.

No my suggestion IS simple but if implemented right it would not break everything to me. Whether or not its the best suggestion out of every ones? Maybe not but I don't see PD spending too much time implementing individual tweaks to satisfy every series in the game.

Anyway I'm done for the night. If there is anything to respond to Ill do so at work tomorrow if I have the time. I'm a very important fellow you know...I hope you get something to eat Famine.

 

[Spagetti69]

Seems silly to implement a 24hr feature but the tire wear is on fast forward.

Give the user options to set tire wear. PD likes 1/10 so start with that. 10 being the longer lasting tire model. Still base it in hard to soft. Hards lasting longer than softs and see where that takes us.

 

[Nismo34]

I just have to say this is my personal Thread of the Week™ on GTP.

I will not participate by any comprehesive mean in this, but...

Alfred Hitchcock's Vertigo, allways have been, always will be

BTW Best tyres for the Ferrari F1 cars are Comfort Hard. However, that is just my non-humble opinion.

Com'on, Comfort softs at least I also agree with you about the thread.