Sportsmanship...

Discussion in 'Gran Turismo Sport' started by Ashthebash, Oct 20, 2017.

  1. Tido84

    Tido84

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    26
    Hi guys

    Quick question . If I get a penalty even it’s not my fault and I erase the let’s say 10 seconds over the race than my ranking is getting up till I’ve a s rank?
     
  2. Ckingrx7

    Ckingrx7

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    37
    After playing nearly all day yesterday. In my opinion the tires have exaggerated grip it's good for begginer and pad users but it forces everyone into extremely late braking and pushing corners faster then is possible in reality. So it's harder to set up passing or defenseive moves since there is only one fastest line and rarely can you go two wide anywhere. If the tire grip/model was more accurate you would force people to drive slower and concentrate on clean prescisce driving and allow for much better racing. The one make racing is nearly impossible to pass on once you get matched with similar drivers so you wind up staying in the same position you started in unless someone makes an error or is slower due to pressure of actually racing. You also have to do your own part to improve sr by determining bad situations before they happen such as someone trying to pass where you just should not ever try to pass. I've noticed the gtr drivers in the gr4 class are really bad about going to the inside where I know they won't make it without contacting me, so I slow down and let them pass before the corner. With great grip comes great responsibility. That awd is getting to there head and making them greedy lol ;)
     
    Last edited: Oct 23, 2017
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  3. LordDrift

    LordDrift

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    382
    I got hit from behind because I had to slow to stop from hitting the slow guy in front...i got a 10 second penalty.. don't make the system seem smarter than it is.. it's not.
     
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  4. Coiler

    Coiler

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    2,636
    Got B-B today God bless Dragon's Trail!
     
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  5. swillisam

    swillisam

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    I don’t understand the slowdown penalties sometimes. If being completely off the accelerator along the front straight on Dragon’s Tail doesn’t count as slowdown I have no idea what does!
     
  6. Imari

    Imari

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    11,134
    Location:
    Australia
    Hate the game, not the player. Also, I don't have GTS. I haven't bought it. Therefore, I can't be an unrepentant dive bomber. I don't play games that encourage this sort of behaviour. I'll thank you not to ascribe actions to me that I haven't taken. I have held an A license on iRacing for 5 years with something like 20% of my races having no incidents at all and a lifetime average incident rating below 4 (below 3 in ovals, which I'm quite proud of).

    I am not the droid that you're looking for.

    I'm simply pointing out that in competitive sports, the point is to win. One does what one can to win within the rules, and that includes taking penalties sometimes. As you'll know if you've watched basically any basketball, soccer, rugby, football, etc. Even motorsports does this. Anyone remember a chap called Ayrton Senna? He became quite famous for it. I'm not familiar enough with the rules of pool or darts to know if there's ever a situation where it would be in a player's interest to take a penalty.

    As long as the system allows it, it will continue. You can get mad, or you can play the game the way it is. The correct party to get angry at, if you must, is Polyphony for designing a system that fails to adequately penalise certain actions. They're the only ones that can change it, and they're the only ones who had any hand in creating it. The rest of the players are just playing with the tools that Polyphony provided.

    The one I use is to watch them in my mirror, and pull slightly to the side just before I brake. It's actually good practise in general to make sure that you're not lined up with the car behind you, because you never know what might happen. They might have a much later braking point than you, or their foot/finger slips, or any sort of totally innocent failure that might accidentally send them up your chuff.

    If you find that difficult (and it can be difficult getting a good corner entry with one eye on the mirror) consider simply taking yourself off the racing line when others get close. Usually the defensive line isn't on the racing line, and usually you can still stop them passing if you choose a good defensive line. But at least that way they have to tangle with you at the apex instead of running you over in the braking zone.

    The no-fault penalty system isn't flawed as such, it simply works over a much longer time frame than most of us are comfortable with. You'll get penalties for things that are absolutely not your fault, but long term a safe driver will end up with less penalty points than a reckless one.

    It's not so much about assigning fault as it is about keeping track of incidents. Over 20+ races a reckless or incompetent driver will get into more incidents because they're constantly crashing, whereas a safe driver like yourself is only crashing when you're unlucky enough to be near an incompetent driver.

    It is frustrating. I've been through it in iRacing. If you can work through it for long enough it starts to make sense and you get a feel for how any single incident really doesn't affect your rating that much. But to start with it can feel horrible to be working so hard to drive clean and feel like it's all being taken away for something that isn't your fault. It's not true, and in two weeks or a month you'll be at a much better SR and these tools will be at the bottom.

    Of course, this comes back to sizing the penalties correctly. If the penalty for hitting you is too small, then the whole system fails and the clobberbuttons are right up there with everyone else. I suspect Polyphony have gone soft on the penalties for fear of scaring people off, but if anything they needed to go overboard to really encourage people to take the SR system into account. I hope that they're watching and make a change soon before too many people get frustrated, but for now the game is what it is.
     
  7. Baron Blitz Red

    Baron Blitz Red

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    Location:
    Canada
    Oh well, at least there's humour in these ratings...

    Only in the world of Gran Turismo Sport is it actually better to be known for BS than someone having a BA! :idea: ;)

    Take that you university big shots!!! :lol:

    Cheers
     
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  8. TCG

    TCG

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    78
    Awesome reply - thank you!

    Also great tip on slightly moving off the line at breaking, particularly those first few corners of the race. I’ll be using this technique to try minimise the frustration so far at the start of many laps until the idiots wipe them selves out and drop right back.

    Again, thanks for the great reply and you’re right, whilst it’s currently quite frustrating, I’ll give it more time to sort itself out.

    Happy racing!
     
    Imari likes this.
  9. Ian Fairbanks

    Ian Fairbanks

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    220
    When I encountered this in forza I would
    Take a brief knee. Let the moron pass, hit the wall, and the. You never have to see him again. That said, I would love a system that slows idiots for long 25sec penalties. It would make the game very frustrating for them, Fair for the good guy that got over zealous and realizes it, it would train the ape still learning, and reward all who comply. Forza outright banned some players. And I commended them for it. The forza forums would light up daily with some ignorant cur complaining about how his account was disabled. The mods would roast him. It’s the one thing turn10 did right.
     
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  10. Azaz3lXRT

    Azaz3lXRT

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    44
    This sportsman ranking is such trash. In a 5 lap race with three sectors, you can run 12-13 clean sectors, get plowed from behind once and suddenly you have a bad sportsmanship ranking. The time deduction are inconsistent and the ranking drops are maddening. You get in a race with idiots that plow through you, you lose ranking, get stuck in a lower class group of inbred mongrels and have to sacrifice your driver rating to get your sportsmanship ranking up. So extremely frustrating. Going to be a lot of broken dual shocks over this game.
     
  11. ItIsOkBro

    ItIsOkBro

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    72
    I just had my first race after being downgraded to C-level Sportsmanship and...it was the most respectful race I've played. Turns out, C is just filled with people who have been wrongfully downgraded (or are taking the downgrade to heart) and are trying to get back up to B.
     
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  12. PrinceMG

    PrinceMG

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    74
    I think the SR works almost fine at the moment. It's not perfect and sometimes a bit unfair, but it's not as bad as it was in the closed beta last spring. If you get punished for being rear ended more than once, most likely the game thought you had a reckless driving style (braking too soon, changing lanes under braking and so forth).

    Contact in motorsport was an issue in DTM/BTCC and so in the 80's and 90's. The racing world has matured since that and contact is usually not accepted in FIA-rated racing. However, the stewards will most likely look another way if the contact is of the kind that don't affect the other driver (touching).

    And don't you dare to call Ayrton Senna a crasher. He went for gaps and demanded his space. That's a big difference compared to bump into other cars because the punishment is too low. I expect any race driver to understand that.
     
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  13. Chris Notes

    Chris Notes

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    53
    Location:
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    So ... I've had nothing but good things to say about this game... Until tonight... Back to back to back races... I started 3-3-4. Slammed into twice dropping me back and finishing 9th in all 3 ... But rating which already should have been ALOT higher but for some reason my clean races are not counting towards my achievements which is frustrating as hell... But anyway... The last 3 races has caused me to go to a C level SR which is straight ******** considering ZERO of the **** was my fault... Then my first 2 races in C level... It's like a ****ing bumper car race... C level drivers are Garbage... The difference from B to C is unreal. I'm so frustrated with how this is going it's really ****ing annoying.
     
  14. Depo

    Depo

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    92
    this is sarcasm at it's finest

    There will never be a perfect system in real life racers need to abandon the race because other racers were defending there line to much
    don't get me wrong i have it happend to me too and i'm not happy about it but
    that's just the way it is
     
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  15. TRGTspecialist

    TRGTspecialist

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    1,433
    Location:
    Northern Ireland
    During the closed beta, there was a period somewhere in the middle of it where PD did adjust SR to be quite punishing - I think a single medium-sized collision during a race was enough to drop your SR. If I remember right there were a lot of complaints about it on here (which you'd think has the dedicated fans which would be receptive to this idea - goodness knows what more casual players thought of it).

    But yeah, it's a shame they've given in a bit - it's not like they would win whatever they did. Even with SR drops seemingly being too lenient at the moment, there's still people in this thread who think they're far too punishing!
     
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  16. Maximum11

    Maximum11

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    72
    Location:
    France
    They should be able to come with a system where the braking zones are clearly delimited for all tracks, and if a guy brakes to little or too late, ending up with crashing into someone. the one in front doens't get anything , and the one behind gets a good 10 seconds. How hard this can be to develop? At the moment, it's most of the times punishing every one, the clean and the dirty drivers.

    I had a good fight with a guy on Lago Maggiore, we were racing very close in the fast turns that lead to the downhill, after a full lap battle, I think I had about 6 seconds penalty for occasionally touching him side by side (none of us crashed). It was great driving but I'm not gonna do this again.

    The problem we have is that there is absolutely no slipstreaming force, we are forced to overtake in corners, which can be hazardeous sometimes, IRL or in any racing game, especially when you are facing a car with a very close pace than yours.
     
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  17. Imari

    Imari

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    11,134
    Location:
    Australia
    I'm sorry to be the one to tell you this, but Ayrton Senna was a crasher by his own admission.

    https://www.f1fanatic.co.uk/2010/10...t-prost-at-suzuka-1990-japanese-gp-flashback/

    Senna was an incredibly talented racer, and had great skill at being both fast, aggressive and clean. And there was a bunch of history and politics behind that incident that make it more complex than a 30 second video clip. But the truth remains that people have died in crashes on that corner. Senna intentionally took out Prost so he could win the title, in a way that put both their lives at risk.

    Ayrton Senna was a magnificent driver and off the track he was an incredibly kind and generous man. But on at least one occasion he deliberately crashed out his opponent, because the rules at the time meant that it was to his advantage. Thankfully, the rules in F1 (and the culture of safety) have since changed, and I sincerely doubt that such an act would be rewarded with a title today.

    I should note that both Prost and Schumacher got away with essentially the same thing. But I use Senna as an example because people tend to hold him as some sort of sacred god of motorsport. Rather, he was the ultimate competitor, and if the rules allowed him to crash someone off to take a win then by damn he did it. To not recognise that is to deny him credit for the singlemindedness and strength of will that allowed him to risk death and murder in the pursuit of a shiny trophy.
     
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  18. ferreira

    ferreira

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    120
    Location:
    United Kingdom
    Again, they aren't playing within the rules. The penalty system is a consequence and reprimand for breaking a rule. I don't see what's so hard to understand about that.

    I'm pretty sure the rules state that you're not allowed to cut corners or make contact with other participants - to say it isn't cheating or against the rules is just factually wrong. Now, in the real world, stewards will turn a blind eye to very minor contact, so long as it hasn't hindered or impeded someone, as in the competitive nature of the sport, people are going to try to get as close to the limit as possible.

    Personally, I think the SR system does a pretty good job for the most part, but it will never be as good as having a real steward adjudicate, which is why I think we need something else implemented like the disqualification system I suggested before.

    Comparing with other sports is pointless. What you've described is still cheating and against the rules. In football, players often dive to get a penalty or freekick. Just because we see cheating in other sports doesn't make it ok, which is why there are now even harsher punishments in place for people that dive and also an inclusion of the video referee to make sure the right call gets made.

    Something like this will need to happen in GTS in order to minimise cheating, which again, is why I suggested the disqualification system before.

    Lastly, it's the human element that makes sport exciting, because we're not perfect and we can make mistakes, but it's also that human element that can choose to be an asshole or not. We just need to find ways to discourage it as much as possible.
     
  19. iainn

    iainn Premium

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    360
    Location:
    United Kingdom
    I think it is sorting itself out pretty quickly.

    I haven't done that many races online, but I ended up in a couple of N300 ones yesterday with only 10-12 entries all with SR B and it was pretty fair, as long as you're careful you can avoid the over eager late brakers and get round cleanly.

    My problem is I'm still too slow!
     
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  20. PrinceMG

    PrinceMG

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    74
    You are quoting to make the reality fit your arguments. He did not crash into Prost. Prost crashed into Senna and Senna was not punished even though the driving itself was kind of insane.

    Senna went for gaps and used his car to deny others to win. Crashing into other cars on purpose to take them out of the race (note: not making others crash into you on purpose) is and have always been illegal. You are talking about deliberately use your car as a weapon to take out other cars. Huge difference!
     
  21. Ryan Dungey

    Ryan Dungey

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    427
    This whole sportsmanship rating needs to be reworked got rear ended 3 times in my last race along with getting hit by people trying to cut corners and smashing me in the side which ended up dropping me from a B to a C in sportsmanship rating. Happens pretty much every race by people in GTRs who think there car is the width of a pencil. People just ram ram ram and ram. Then there is the people who decide to brake check you mid corner just so you rear end them, it's so annoying the whole system needs to be reworked. This is just great after getting put down to a C because others smacking me off track I'm not stuck in lobbies with everyone doing it and will probably not be able to escape it now because it happens in every race on every corner and it's always damn nissan GTR drivers in GR4 or Porsche RSR drivers in GR3.

    EDIT: IM DONE IM BLOODY DONE ITS LITERALLY UNPLAYABLE 3 LAPS OF BEING AHEAD THEN THE GUY BEHIND JUST GOES NAH I CANT CATCH HIM ILL JUST PLOUGH INTO HIM AND OUT HIM INTO LAST...
     
    Last edited: Oct 24, 2017
  22. MW_Turned

    MW_Turned

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    56
    Location:
    Austria
    After many Sport mode races during the last week, i have to say, the system works ok for me. Kept a SR B rating all week, despite some minor bumps and crashes. Even today a guy bumped into me from behind (without any consequences) and i didn't get orange SR or a time penalty. I even got a clean race bonus at the end.
    But i also think it shouldn't be too hard to implement a system that knows the cornering top speed for slow corners and just ghosts guys that are way over that speed in a certain zone.
     
  23. Imari

    Imari

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    11,134
    Location:
    Australia
    Mate, I'm quoting Ayrton Senna's own words. If you think you know him better than you think he knows himself, then by all means continue idolising a fantasy.

    That's the reality of the man.

    Are you thinking of '89? In 1989, Prost did indeed crash into Senna. The next year, Senna crashed into Prost. They have both at different times crashed into each other.

    [​IMG]

    I see you're set on parroting the marketing line instead of assessing each case on it's merits. Most of the time this was true. At Suzuka in 1990 it was not. By his own admission, either he was going to get through T1 ahead of Prost or he was going to make sure Prost didn't make it.

    No, in F1 it actually hasn't.

    Obviously you're familiar with Prost and Senna in '89, where Prost hit Senna and Senna was penalised for running through the chicane (as if he had anywhere else to go). Nobody was punished for the impact though. You should also look into Schumacher and Hill at Adelaide in '94.

    Max Mosley has said that Schumacher wouldn't have won in '94 under today's rules. Yet he did back then, because crashing into other cars on purpose wasn't exactly illegal.

    https://www.f1fanatic.co.uk/2007/08/22/schumacher-would-have-lost-94-title-under-modern-rules/

    Nothing difficult to understand, you're just wrong. It is not illegal to take a penalty. Penalties are part of the game. Badly designed penalties allow players to use them to their advantage. There is no rule that says that one must avoid penalties wherever possible, nor that one must attempt to follow the rules wherever possible. It's implied, but never stated because it's unenforceable.

    Which rules are these? The one in The Big Book of Polyphony Racing Rules? Could you link that to me again? I seem to have lost it. I'd like to check - factually - what is and isn't against the rules.

    You can't? Oh dear me, what a pickle.

    It's a computer game, and the rules are whatever the game allows you to do. If an action comes with a penalty, the penalty is whatever the game chooses to assign.

    And this is where you're missing the point. This is not the real world. It's a game. There are no stewards. There is only our robotic overlords, who I for one welcome.

    Why? It seems quite relevant if GTS is trying to be an eSport.

    Diving is cheating. That is trying to mislead the umpire and gain an advantage from an infraction that has not been committed.
    Intentionally fouling is not cheating. The penalties are severe (red card, I think?) to discourage it, but if a team wishes to do so they may. It is taking an action knowing and accepting the consequences within the rules of the game. There is no attempt to mislead or avoid any aspect of the rules or penalties.

    Did you read what I posted about competitive gaming? I suspect not. There's a difference between cheating and playing the rules. I hoped that a better comprehension of the competitive mindset would help you understand that.
     
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  24. ZEROTHEKNIGHT

    ZEROTHEKNIGHT

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    Location:
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    Leaving others (playing the rules) in a dangerous motorsport is like asking to go defensless in a mine field.
    I say i use the rules to shield myself better than allowing others to continue their aggressive behaviour - which is logical as a protection against their behaviour - or i'll be allowing myself to become a rock which they kick it rather than trying to carry it.
    In other words - they'll make their victims a twisted meat of ugly modern art which is addictive to the psychopaths.
    So i agree on not allowing them to do that in a dangerous motorsport.
     
    Last edited: Oct 24, 2017
  25. Maximum11

    Maximum11

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    72
    Location:
    France
    I'll never forget May 1st 1994, a day of unlimited sadness for me, but I have to say I never really liked Senna. Of course I was supporting Prost as a frenchman, but he shared that ability with Schumacher to be able to mix ultimate talent at times with stupid attitude at others. People today believe what they are told , about a mystic pilot much better than everyone, but ignore he was doing all he could to have a better car than his teammate and this built his 3 titles like it did for every single driver before and after him. He was sometimes untouchable , but not unbeatable. F1 and racing history is full of great stories and drama and that was makes it interesting.

    The main guy to blame is Ron Dennis about the Prost Suzuka incident. It ended with minor crashes, but in another similar situation, it ended with death (Gilles Villeneuve).

    And for the topic, I don't think Senna fit in the gentleman driver category, but which great champion does? He was dirty when he was challenged, like Schumacher.
     
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  26. ferreira

    ferreira

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    120
    Location:
    United Kingdom
    I'm talking about the rules of the sport - not the rules of physics in the game. If you want to live by your own definition of what a 'rule' and a 'penalty' is, that's fine, but the English dictionary says otherwise - not me.

    As for the rules themselves, maybe you should watch the racing etiquette videos again, where they explicitly state "Motorsport is called a non-contact sport. That means it is a sport that does absolutely not allow contact with others". If you want to be really pedantic about it, go and check the FIA regulations. I doubt they'd willingly associate themselves with a game that they didn't think would honor those rules as best and as realistically as possible.

    And as for competitive gaming, I'm fully aware of the lengths people will bend the rules to get an advantage over someone else. Personally, I don't care for it, but if people feel it's necessary to compensate for their shortcomings, then I feel sad for them. I don't foster any ambitions of becoming a professional gamer - I'm just trying to have a good time. If that makes me a "scrub" then so be it.
     
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  27. Ckingrx7

    Ckingrx7

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    37
    Well after making it to a sr of S last night. Went to bed feeling great. I decided to squeeze a few races in before work and managed to drop myself to a b either by my own fault accidental unavoidable contact. In which I would give the offended his spot back if it affected him. To being straight shunted in corner one and rage quitting lol yes quitting a race drops you a whole sr rating did not know that. So it does work out but it still needs some work you go down way faster then up.
     
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  28. RC45

    RC45 (Banned)

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    The term you are struggling with is moral relativism. It feels good from your perspective so its good behaviour.

    Games do involve morality - the fact they are played by human beings supports this concept, it is also known as good sportsmanship.

    Sorry, what you and others are promoting is not strong competition, it is cheating.

    IOW, your logic is this - if you are in a war zone and you could survive by pushing your fellow soldier into the line of fire so he will die while you run away and survive, it is ok - because that is just the nature of competition and someone needs to be the winner - why not you right?

    Cry all you want from the tree tops about this is the way to be the ultimate competitor - playing by this flawed moral code of "it is OK to cheat to win" is still being a jerk.

    Standing by for yet another dressing down by a certain mod because I choose to live by a certain moral code.
     
    Last edited: Oct 25, 2017
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  29. Nasherwood

    Nasherwood

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    27
    I had my own strange SR/Penalty encounter today.


    Overall I'm happy that this game has a form of Sportsmanship rating as it works more often than not, but when it doesn't work it's like an overzealous teacher punishing the whole class for one troublemaker's disruption :lol: (a far-fetched analogy...maybe).

    But at the end of the day it's just a game and you can always play it clean the next race! after you've screamed into a pillow.
     
  30. Ckingrx7

    Ckingrx7

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    37
    I had something similar happen in the last corner before the straight it's easy to spin and of course a guy two cars ahead of me spun and darted out in front of me with a car to my right and wall to the left I had to hit him and it in turn spun me around into a wall. After recovering from last to eighth, I passed a gtr and he decided he didn't like that I was obviously faster so he squeezed inside of me on the next and drifted his ass end into my car and gave me another negative sr. I swear people have no concept of when to pass. Gtr drivers are the worst for this I've noticed they use that awd to make up for poor driving. Not all but most.
     
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