Sportsmanship...

Discussion in 'Gran Turismo Sport' started by Ashthebash, Oct 20, 2017.

  1. kitchenboy

    kitchenboy

    Messages:
    112
    Location:
    South Africa
    The system is not perfect and it's not infallible and someone will always be able to take advantage of that, but it does work and i believe it will improve with time, also a lot of the cheaters will get bored and disappear. i was ranked A and due to a couple of bad races due to others bumping into me and also due to my own over eagerness i got busted down to B, so yesterday after some great runs, some caution and patience i achieved my S ranking, did about half a dozen races more and those were some of the cleanest, fairest and respectful races i've experienced on GT, sometimes a hard fought for 5th place is more of an accomplishment then a dirty 1st. it's about having fun after all, Enjoy, be patient and see you on track:cheers:
     
  2. GTWelsh

    GTWelsh Premium

    Messages:
    2,270
    Location:
    Wales
    I have had this in Lobby a few times at various tracks. I'm very careful usually and if I'm diving up the inside at the Brands hairpin for example I often back out even though I was basically there, because I just know he hasn't seen me and is about to shut the door. I lose time, but if I'm faster I'll get another shot soon enough. Clean racing is actually very difficult because of this.

    Then when I'm having an off-day I'll dive up the inside, be too hot because even though I brake on the marker I use the room has slipstream on High and I'm doing 40000mph (god I hate slipstream on anything other than REAL). No where to go, smash, I look and feel like an idiot :( . Obviously send a message afterwards though
     
  3. JulesDennis

    JulesDennis

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    1,245
    I am happy for any player that enjoy the game.I do too.But the fact remains that
    a.System is not working that good
    b.Even in S rating,people exploit the game's SR system and keep driving dirty.
    I can give you examples:
    Had a race (ar S SR rating lobby) with a guy pretty much using me and the guy in front of me,as brakes in every single corner,cutting the track in many situations and ending up in 1st position with a POSITIVE SR rating at the same time the "victims" (me and the guy in front of me,running at 1 & 2nd position) getting a...negative SR rating because of getting hit from behind in many occasions from that same dude.He did not recive any kind of penalty in the end btw.
    I was really laughing so hard because the system had it all wrong....
     
  4. kitchenboy

    kitchenboy

    Messages:
    112
    Location:
    South Africa
    I'm sorry that happened to you, like i said the system is not infallible, but i firmly believe such incidents are more of an exception rather then rule
     
  5. Mr P510

    Mr P510

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    1,221
    As far as I'm concerned the SR system in GT Sport need an overhaul.
    iRacing does it right in my opinion,and until PD get it closer to that or eliminate a negative SR from some kid/clown ramming you from behind,then I have no interest in the online side of it till its fixed.
     
  6. ynot

    ynot

    Messages:
    1,504
    I agree here, one thing to remember is there are a lot of first time racers on GT Sport so they are in the early stages of learning sim racing. I am not making excuses by any means. Hate dirty drivers with a passion. Just something to think about while screaming nice words to the guy who just jacked your race up. Newbies will get better if they stick with it.
     
  7. MikeV27

    MikeV27

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    1,480
    Location:
    Canada
    It's not perfect but it will get better in time, I have only encountered a couple of dirty drivers out of 22 races in sport mode so far. It's been far better than what I've experienced in the Forza Motorsport hoppers over the years.
     
  8. BigBravo21

    BigBravo21

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    18
    I'm 64. But feel quite young.
     
  9. cf357

    cf357

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    43
    Do you think the evaluation of SR in a race has changed a little bit? Yesterday I had a couple of races (Kyoto - GR4). I think I did a couple of small mistakes, or at least, something that would have given me some SR penalties, and actually I got nothing, and I eventually got a blue "A" at the end of the race. This is like if the system had considered it was because of the other drivers were driving to fast, or the collision was not strong enough to justify a SR penalty.

    This is hard to give objective numbers and facts here, but again, I'm pretty sure I should have got a neutral or red "A" with the system.

    Did anyone else notice that?
     
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  10. TCG

    TCG

    Messages:
    78
    I think the only thing that’s consistent is the systems inconsistency. Also today I had a string of bad races where I received 4 Red SR S’s in a row which I was expecting to be dropped down to A again but nope. Yet yesterday I had several blue S races and my last race for the night ended with a red S and I dropped to A. I was able to than go back to S after two clean races this morning. I can’t work the system out. It’s completely random, both in the race and at the end.
     
    JulesDennis likes this.
  11. cf357

    cf357

    Messages:
    43
    Hmmm I think I disagree with this. I don't think this is completely random, neither in the race nor at the end. I find pretty fair, as far as I can say with my current races. I always went up and down accordingly, and at the end of every race, my final rating reflected my race and all the intermediate ratings. I never considered this unfair, but I trust you and I'm sure it may be unfair sometimes.
     
  12. jesQuick

    jesQuick

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    144
    If you're worried about your SR, just throw a few race while you stay in the back and avoid any incidents. Voila, your SR has just gone up and you can enjoy races with more 'friendly' drivers.
     
  13. mustafur

    mustafur

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    8,509
    Location:
    Australia
    not when someone wants to ruin you and then gets back to the same rooms you are in at S
     
    jesQuick likes this.
  14. InebriHATED

    InebriHATED

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    117
    I disagree. I havent had one sport race yet where Im not being bumped all over the place.
     
  15. Cfft555

    Cfft555

    Messages:
    137
    Location:
    Australia
    I had my dad pop in last night while I was playing. He is a massive car guy, but not a gamer. I was explaining the system to him and had a few incidents that caused others to go off. I didn't get penalties for them and he basically said that none of the incidents were my fault. Both on Kyoto

    Im 3rd and slipstreaming the guy in 2nd pretty much right on his bumper on the first sweeping corner. Comfortable holding speed that would allow to power out with possible crisscross into the chicane or a pass up into the hairpin, all of a sudden he brakes and I go straight into the back of him and into the grass he goes. He message after berating me to going into the back of him and giving him a penalty and I replied saying learn how to drive, you don't hard brake on a sweeper with a car right behind, there is a reason you got a penalty and I didn't.

    Next race im sitting 5th on the last lap and get a good exit from the chicane comfortable pass on fourth and in position on third who went deep. I kept tight to the apex allowing room on the outside for the 3rd place car and keeping myself with position for the last corner. The car in 4th backed off and dropped in behind me, but the car in 3rd place decided he was going to cut back to the apex, I tagged about a 3rd up the back of his car and spun him out I got no penalty and he had a 8 second penalty at race end. Once again I got an angry message saying it was my fault, I responded that he was at fault. That I had position and racing line and he needed to hold the outside line.

    It just shows to me what I was thinking about people thinking they are in the right when they are in the wrong.
     
  16. TCG

    TCG

    Messages:
    78
    Yup, I agree with you. However, my concerns are when I am 100% at fault and don’t receive a pentalty. You’re example gives a great view on how the system is trying to do the right thing, however there are just as many examples where is has completely dropped the ball. The framework for a good rating system is there, it just needs further refinement and I think it’s important for the longevity of the game that it gets sorted early on which is why many of us are quite vocal for the good of the game and the racing community we are trying to build with PD.
     
  17. soundtiger95

    soundtiger95

    Messages:
    491
    Location:
    United States
    Your special occasions don’t take away from others where the system worked against them wrongly. I just had a race today at Kyoto where I qualified first and spent most of the race in first. The person in second raced cleanly the whole race up until the third to last lap. I was down on the inside part of the track in turn one and the guy in second decided to go lower and push me off to the side and up the track and ended up passing me. I get an SR hit and end up in second. Then going into the hairpin on the same lap, he leaves the inside line open so I try to pass but he decided halfway through the turn to block the inside. He turns and puts two tires in the grass to stop me and puts me in the wall and I end up spinning out. Again, my SR takes a hit. I ended up finishing 8th or 9th. He went on to win without any penalties. His SR was red after the race but that means nothing when he was still awarded with the win, and there’s no guarantee that it’ll “catch up to him” like so many people say. You can get away with a lot in this game and not be penalized at all.
     
    Last edited: Nov 2, 2017
  18. VFOURMAX1

    VFOURMAX1

    Messages:
    1,469
    Location:
    United States
    That scenario I would need to see the replay, if you were coming up the "open inside" and he moves over putting 2 wheels in the grass on the inside then if you had of been on the inside lane inside of him when he dropped down he would have hit you and could not have dropped his wheels into the grass.

    If he was clear and in front of you even taking an action of protecting the inside line that would be considered a defensive move and not illegal or unsportsmanlike behavior.

    Sounds more like he was taking an outside- inside- outside move through the corner and was carrying more speed coming from the outside to the inside than you could carry pinching the corner off by trying to take the tighter inside line.

    If his car was still in front of you entering the corner and you were not at least even with his door just prior to actually ENTERING the corner then he owned the racing line through the corner and cutting back down was not taking your line away, that was his line you were trying to pass on the inside where there was not ample room to successfully complete all the different components that consist in the passing process from start to finish.

    I came to this opinion just going by how you described the pass in your text, if you had of been up far enough on his door at racing speed I do not see any scenario where he could have cut back all the way to the grass where your car would have not been blocking the line "to the grass". Without a replay by your description its hard to see it any other way.
     
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  19. soundtiger95

    soundtiger95

    Messages:
    491
    Location:
    United States
    I think you need to read again. I wasn’t on the inside, I was behind him approaching the corner. He was taking the middle line around the turn since that’s where he entered the turn, so that was what he decided would be his racing line. I was actually taking a similar line to him. He didn’t start outside and then come in. He was literally in the middle part of the track in the first part of the turn and continued on nearly to the middle part of the turn. As soon as he saw me coming up the inside part of the turn, he moved his car further inside to block. That’s not a clean defensive move, that’s blocking, and it isn’t a sportsmanlike move at all, whether a sportsmanlike move is defined as it is in real racing or by PD themselves (blocking is in one of their videos, and it even says to refrain from blocking someone trying to pass). What it looked like happened is that he carried too much speed into the turn and went wide halfway through, and then tried to correct it once he saw me coming up the inside and blocked my pass attempt. By the time he reached where I was, the front of my car was even with the back right door of him and I had to go into the grass to avoid a collision and he continued to the inside until I touched the wall.

    It was a clear case of blocking. He made a mistake by carrying too much speed and then completely changed his line. Just because you’re ahead doesn’t mean you can change your racing line halfway through a turn because someone is trying to pass. That’s both dangerous and unsportsmanlike. Also, the first incident with him isn’t even being discussed here and shouldn’t be ignored either. He drove up on my bumper, loosened me up, and ended up pushing me away and made an easy pass.

    The penalty system is both flawed and inconsistent and when it negatively affects you, it completely ruins your race. This isn’t iRacing where most people are solid drivers who know proper racing techniques. This is GT where there’s many more casual drivers who know nothing about racing lines, passing, etc, even at higher levels. I understand the system will never be perfect, but it needs to be worked on so it stops penalizing people who are doing nothing wrong.
     
    TCG likes this.
  20. SCCAdeanRX-7

    SCCAdeanRX-7

    Messages:
    229
    I don't get it. Once you get to the S ranking, it's very rare that someone intentionally takes you off the track or even intentionally.... I got the A rating a couple times but then I had some b or a rated guy hit me from behind and then I get mad and lose my Sr. I just took a day of racing a little easier and got my Sr up to S and the last week has been pretty much great racing. I did about 10 races today and didn't get cheap shotted once.
     
  21. VFOURMAX1

    VFOURMAX1

    Messages:
    1,469
    Location:
    United States
    I did read your original post again and in what I read in your original post I would still make the same assumption, now what you wrote in your reply and 2nd post to what I wrote describes a scenario much more detailed that changes the facts from"he turns and put two wheels on the grass to stop me" which was what you had written originally and I said I would need to see a replay based off what information was given in that first account to change my opinion of the incident based off the information as written.

    Now in your second accounting you give a lot more information regarding car positioning and alignments going through the corner and from that description it sounds as if he overcooked the corner and he turned down onto your position of an inside racing line where by your accounts you were holding and you did not slide up into him but rather he turned down into you hitting your car forcing you off the inside of the track before he was able to put "two tires in the grass" as you originally wrote.

    If that was the case then you were in the right, but you have to admit that the differences in how the incidents were written actually could very easily be describing two separate incidents instead of the same incident.

    I also bet that the other driver would have a different accounting of how the events unfolded or what happened and would probably say he was going for the late apex to maintain a higher corner speed and not blocking and that is the reason that only a replay showing the actual event can be used by a 3rd party in most cases to determine who was in the right and who was in the wrong. Even with a replay some incidents can still leave a question of who was right or who may have been in the wrong and those get chalked up as "racing incidents" with no one being listed as "at fault" for the incident. Can easily get pretty confusing would you not agree?

    This is one of the reasons that any penalty system for a racing game is going to get it wrong some of the time, there are many different ways to attack a section of race track and those differences sometime end up in contact. What about the situation that everyone is running at racing speed and the front car of about a train of 4 loses rear grip, gets loose and check up on the gas trying to keep from spinning out and basically for those at the rear of the pack it is like those in front just parked it and he hits the rear of the car in front of him causing a chain reaction.

    Who is at fault there? The guy in the front that failed to maintain grip and drastically cut speed in an instant or the cars in the train that hit the cars in front of them because of the instantaneous reduction of speed or would that be classed as just a racing incident? Remember we are racing on a track and the 2 second rule does not come into play like on the public streets. How can the racers behind anticipate the sudden change in momentum when they are running inches off the car in fronts rear bumper looking to make a pass at the first opportunity? Should those racers be assessed a 10 second penalty for contact while the lead car that actually caused the incident be penalty free?

    No system that relies on 1"s and 0's to determine fault or punishment in something that has the potential to have such controversial situations that many times a change in the blame of an incident can be caused or a result of the "intent" of the driver or even the loss of the rate of acceleration by tires losing traction from just being slightly over the physics of being able to maintain grip.

    This system seems at least to start to be doing a fairly good job of grouping drivers of similar speeds together and taking basic actions such as collisions or off track excursions and assigning a penalty for the action.

    Also using the amount of incidents for the time or miles raced to further group racers together or in some cases separate the racers by how on track incident free they race is another good step in trying to get clean competitive on line races to be more than just a rare event. . The system does lack the ability to examine a replay and make a penalty determination from the video evidence.

    As a result sometimes penalties will be wrongly assigned and when it happens it does suck. I do not think you will find anyone that races this game online that has not had an instance of feeling they had unfairly been penalized at least once. I think for what the system is it is overall doing well and even trying to assign blame at times to the guilty party but right now that model that assigns blame still needs some work.

    I think that turning on "high damage" would also stop some of the ramming or using other cars for a braking berm as damage will slow down your car and in instances require a trip to pits to continue. That still is not going to stop those that do not care about their ratings but as the rating classes get further separated and the guys wanting to race and run in clean races "value" their rating then there will be more emphasis on the "give" rather than "take" part.

    Patience and trying to race within what the system is trying to promote is the best we can do as racers. I think this going to single day races will cause more on track incidents as racers have less time to learn the tracks and cars they are trying to race so there will be more mistakes and frustration in the on line racing as a result.

    I know my on line racing will be made very selectively as a result. I personally do not want to be one of those that ruins someone's race because I do not know the track, the reasonable braking points or the cars behavior or handling characteristics. I think this may cause many to lose interest and put the game down.
     
    JulesDennis likes this.
  22. ElFlambe

    ElFlambe

    Messages:
    12
    I have been racing as cleanly as I can, but I'm starting to think there's no point, because all that happens is you get stuffed around by, both other players and the sr system. A system that penalizes you for someone else's error, be it deliberate or accidental is just asking to be abused and is ruining the game. There needs to be stricter penalties for consistantly deliberate offenders, because at the moment all that seems to happen is they win.
     
    JulesDennis likes this.
  23. Haitauer

    Haitauer

    Messages:
    1,620
    Location:
    Finland
    I think some actions should grant a permanent time penalty and repeating penalty ie bumping should result a warning and dnf. Or maybe there should be warning points that carry from race to race like in real life.

    Also the game should somehow recognize who is keeping the line and who is changing the line as most often the guy changing the line should be punished.

    In general getting hit to the side or rear while outside in a curve should get a lot less time penalties as it's not too likely to benefit from that position. Going out in a curve should reduce DR not SR.

    Also have noticed theres quite a few people who clearly dont care about sr or even time, just want to finish ahead. You can always grind back the SR.
     
    Last edited: Nov 7, 2017
  24. TenderLoins

    TenderLoins

    Messages:
    369
    Location:
    United States
    That just means you’ve been lucky.
     
  25. Stutopia

    Stutopia

    Messages:
    11
    I like the SR concept and thought I was doing ok, getting up to B, but taking a serious rear end shunt (classic misjudge of the braking zone by the perp) saw me involved in a multi car crash and bumped straight down to D (missing out C completely). Since then I’ve really struggled to get back my SR, anything like a decent qualifying time sees me mid-grid or higher, so I can’t even back off and leave the bumper cars to it. Some can’t even file past me trying to get out of their way.

    I’d like to see some smart rules implemented around if Player X’s front is the impact zone and Player Y’s rear is the impact zone, X is at fault. Adding the speed differential of the two vehicles wouldn’t do any harm either. It’s not going to be perfect but it’d be a simple step forward. If that’s too complicated (which it isn’t) then more aggressive ghosting for rear end collisions.

    I honestly think if the repeat rear-enders were given serious go slow penalties, they’d get fed up far quicker and change their style or leave. Longer races would help to, there’s such a panic to make places in the first 3-6 corners in a 3 lap race, the 10 lappers are much more ‘safely’ driven and the required concentration time deters the terminally stupid.
     
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  26. Tristan Jones

    Tristan Jones

    Messages:
    204
    Location:
    Australia
    I have had orange SR warnings with no time penalty...does working off time penalties work off the oranges too?

    Also, I have noticed Penalties seeming less harsh of late - is this real or just me? Some lighter taps getting no penalty, where I'm sure the same scenerio got an orange warning and time penalty previously.

    Time penalties seem more harsh in FIA races!
     
    Last edited: Nov 7, 2017
  27. ArchangelX

    ArchangelX

    Messages:
    96
    Location:
    United States
    I'm in B A and it still sucks. Every official race has nothing but bumps sliding in it. I actually back off to try and race clean and people basically just rammed themselves right up inside of me every single time. Even though they're not fast enough to take the corner cleanly. They hit me, it forces me over and they get the place. All they are doing is late-braking just enough to ram into you and use you as a brake.

    Bad thing is that I get the SR down penalty, and they get practically nothing and a win.
     
    TCG likes this.
  28. RotorHed

    RotorHed

    Messages:
    157
    Time penalties and SR degrades aren't related.

    Time penalties seem to be primarily applied for going off track while SR degrades are for car contact and major things like ending up pointing the wrong way (probably why people get SR degrades when they go off track and spin).

    Working off a penalty doesn't remove the degraded SR sector, but running clean sectors may mitigate the effect.

    I think penalties can be changed by PD depending on the event - they can be adjusted for offline races at least so I imagine PD set the penalties in the higher class races higher as well.
     
    Tristan Jones likes this.
  29. ElFlambe

    ElFlambe

    Messages:
    12
    One thing I think would be beneficial, would be to give players some indication of how their dr and sr are progressing. At the moment, apart from losing two or three places from my starting position, thanks to shunters and people driving like they're inside a pinball machine, I come to the end of each race asking, so what did I get out of that, other than an urge to throw my controller at the wall in frustration?
     
  30. kevlar_hybrid

    kevlar_hybrid

    Messages:
    118
    It's a woefully dumb system, by which I mean the opposite to a smart (as in bomb) system. Think of the tech and problem solving that's gone in to create such a title and then marvel at the truly basic nature of the SR system. (e.g. literally *no* braking by the driver behind slamming into you at the hairpin is a joint SR penalty for you both. The information in the game is there to make smarter decisions - they're just not using it. Also, be aware if you're side by side you can push someone off the track completely with no SR hit whatsoever. Really nasty driving - but goes unpunished.)

    That said, it is what it is and the idiots will exploit it anyway they can, to the detriment of drivers who want to race close and clean. So we need a work around. My most successful method to date, having been molested back into red C a few times within the space of one race is as follows:

    1) Enter a daily through qualifying.
    2) Practice the track at full speed but always find a place to back off and drop around a second off your lap time. Your goal is to qualify mid field.
    3) Start the race clean and let anyone pass up the inside in quicker cars.
    4) Asses your competitors in front and behind you. Is there a teenage boy battle in concept cars? Back off.
    5) Spend the first lap finding where there's a space in the running order. You've qualified with speed in hand and you're not involved in the battle for a win. So move away from trouble behind, or back off from trouble in front.
    6) Avoid all contact, always yield no matter how unfair. Hitting the wall in better than hitting the opponent.
    7) Rinse repeat as you rating goes up.

    Now - is this "racing"? Of course not. But it's an effective way to get into the higher SR classes where hopefully over time the clean fair racing will take place.