Sportsmanship...

Discussion in 'Gran Turismo Sport' started by Ashthebash, Oct 20, 2017.

  1. Ashthebash

    Ashthebash

    Messages:
    132
    Have to say, I've been staying away from the GR3 online races but after doing one last night that's where I'm going to increase my SR. Field gets much more spread out and the races are long enough to let you recover from a bumpy start. Plus you can be sporting without being desperate to improve SR...

    I had an incident free race for 3 laps, then chasing 3rd right up his exhaust heading towards the chicane I didn't think the pass was on so stayed behind him, however brakes don't work so well in a slipstream and I hit him up the back, punted him off and got a well deserved 10s penalty. I took the penalty coming out of the chicane, rounded the final corner then left it in 3rd on medium revs to let him back past. He spun 3 laps later as I began to pressure him again but at least I could claim the 3rd place was mine, and fairly.
    Felt good to be sporting!
     
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  2. eran0004

    eran0004

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    8,677
    Because "using them as brakes" is not a state recognised by the game engine. When designing a penalty system you are limited to what the game engine can detect. Collisions are detectable, leaving the track is detectable. Intentions are not detectable.

    As for why this system works:

    It's simply a matter of probability. Poor drivers will get a penalty for each of the incidents they cause (+ any incidents they are a victim in). Victims only get a penalty for incidents they are caught up in.

    Over time, the poor drivers get a worse rating than their victims.
     
  3. Foxis

    Foxis

    Messages:
    181
    I do not agree. The system is currently very flawed.
    I just raced two races (gr4) where I (in both races) got used as a brake by another player. I race with the radar on and really work to avoid having people accidentally bump me (brake softly at first so the lights come on, adapt my line, etc.).

    In both the latest instances, the car came literally out of nowhere and shunted me into the barrier with considerable force. I got an SR penalty and a 10 second penalty, and (despite racing cleanly for the rest of the race) ended with a negativ SR (B currently).

    Despite heavy jostling and bumping ahead of me (which I stayed out of), the offending player and those ahead all finished with positive SR.

    As for me braking late, being slower, etc. and causing the incidents that was not the case. I started in 4th position both times and am generally consistent and drive quite smoothly.

    It seems some people use bumping as a tactic, and the current SR system does not penalize the agressor, but does penalize the victim.

    It really makes me quite irritated and has me thinking about going back to iRacing again. At least there both cars are punished.

    :-(
     
  4. eran0004

    eran0004

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    8,677
    Did you take the penalty or did you ignore it?
     
  5. TCG

    TCG

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    78
    I’ve noticed several occasions where I am at fault yet do not get a penalty yet the victim of my late breaking does.

    These incidents do happen from time to time despite being an SR A driver, so I get if it was a no fault system and BOTH parties get a penalty, that in the long term would work out for clean racers. My concern is that this is NOT the system. More often than not the victim is pentalised and the offender is not. It’s flawed. It’s broken and it’s prettt obvious at times and I worry that it will just grow a community of professional shutters because, so far, it’s allowed and in many cases your rewarded for doing so.
     
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  6. cf357

    cf357

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    43
    How do you figure whether the offender (when it's not you) has been penalized or not?
     
  7. TCG

    TCG

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    78
    After race chat, I always message and apologies when I’ve impacted someone’s race in a way that’s cost them a win or podium spot as I know the system is flawed and is a way to maintain a level of sportsmanship when the SR system fails. Usually I will give the place straight back when accidents occurs but on two occasions that didn’t make a difference as they also received time penalties so I still finished ahead on time.
     
  8. Foxis

    Foxis

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    181
    I always take the penalty, and I raced the remainder of the races without incident. But still got a red B.
    I was about to quit entirely, but in my last attempt for today I managed to get a clean race. It helps to get pole and then extend a lead... :)

    However, the point is not really about the incidents themselves. I get that people make mistakes and misjudge each other. Especially in SR B where all new players get placed. What irks me to no end is that I get a severe penalty that I cannot make up for, whereas the guys who bump me managed to *raise* their SR. It's entirely backwards.

    By all accounts, these things go away in A and S, but getting out of B is a bit of a pain. My opinion is that PD should be harsher on penalties in general, as in iRacing. Bumping still happens in iRacing, but you can be sure that both parties are penalised.

    (Sorry for the long post. TLDR: If both parties race cleanly except for the incident and i get a red SR and the other guy a blue, he got the less severe penalty of the two of us)

    Long version:

    In my case I can be sure that they at least got a less severe penalty in both races. Basically the same thing happened in two races after each other:
    - I place in position 3-4 on the grid
    - In one of a couple of corners where I do slower in / faster out, I am rear ended by someone who is misjudging his speed.
    - I get pushed off and into the barrier and get a 10 second penalty.
    - I race the rest of the races without incidents.

    = I get a negative SR (red B in the results). The perps get BLUE Bs.
    Which means that however you slice it, I got a more severe penalty than the bad drivers. I would guess that they only got penalised for contact, whereas I got penalised for contact + off track + barrier contact.
    Which is not a well designed system. Sure it will balance itself over time. But right now it is *promoting* bad drivers and punishing clean ones. That's just wrong.

    (And regarding slow in / fast out, I do get that some may find themselves in a situation where they think I am "too slow", but that's really their problem. When the situation is reversed I am passing people in those corners, so it's certainly not that I am slow. I don't threshold brake in those corners either, so they really should have ample chance to slow down or pick another line. But no. Tap me hard and off I go... :(
    FWIW, I have switched to bumper cam to get the virtual mirror and am now stepping off the line if I think a turd is behind me. He can go flying off on his own instead... :) )
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Oct 28, 2017
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  9. ItIsOkBro

    ItIsOkBro

    Messages:
    72
    I just saw a race where a guy lightly tapped a car as it was passing him. The tapped car ended up on the grass and spun out, falling several paces. The tap was not enough to significantly affect the offender's SR if at all, because they finished first with a blue SR.

    Maybe a system that penalizes the person who comes out on top whenever contact is made would work.
     
  10. Imari

    Imari

    Messages:
    11,133
    Location:
    Australia
    If nothing else they should probably move to the iRacing system where an incident count is displayed for each driver at the end of the race. If people don't have faith that the system is working that's a problem, regardless of whether it's actually working or not.
     
  11. SpawnBlack

    SpawnBlack

    Messages:
    410
    Location:
    United Kingdom
    Getting your car rammed by another driver also decreases your Sportsmanship rating regardless if you braked too late on corners or it’s not entirely your fault. Being aware of your surroundings and the behavior of fellow drivers is the only way to prevent car collisions. If you spot an ill-mannered driver, reposition your car accordingly and steer out of their way. http://twinfinite.net/2017/10/gran-turismo-sport-sportsmanship/

    No one wants to move over and let someone pass them because we do get greedy. However, recognising that you have made a mistake and letting another driver past helps your SR Rating. Clean sectors raises your SR and overtakes when done cleanly in conjunction with Driver Rating will go up significantly over a period of 3-4 race meetings.

    There have been many situations where you can't do anything but to get hit because the racing is so close the higher your DR and SR are. But ultimately there are many out there who are just playing to spoil your fun and credibility. Everyone has a different braking point whereby some brake early or later which is fine, but it's important to remember that there are many who do race are talking or listening to music so they are not fully concentrating.

    Returning to the track on to the racing line is just plain dumb if you know that you should wait, because to be honest if you crash out or are run on to the grass it will take you some time to get back up to speed so awareness of where others are beside or behind you is important because If you get hit your SR and DR will go down.

    I'm no Angel as I had a Spanish driver named Alonso1988 who kept weaving from side to side and braking early just so that I would ram him. So I gave him what he wanted....I rammed him at the bottom of the hill approaching the chicane. No it wasn't nice I know but he either had no awareness or just didn't care as he was fighting with a gtr until the gtr gave up.

    GT SPORT is great and the sport mode is good but yes some tweaks to the rating system need to addressed. If there is a car behind and you get rammed then it should not affect you the car in front. Above all else patience is key and practice as much as possible with racing lines and set ups.
    Also just because a particular car is fast like the gtr and the sirocco on the straights does not mean it makes you a better driver.

    I drive the Mazda Attenza which I did not know was 4 wheel drive. I've got it set up with the drive mostly at the rear making it very competitive but still not as quick as the GT-R, but I have to work hard on track to get the desired results.

    Sorry for the long post but I had to put it out there. So if you see me out there say hello and remember to race fairly.
     
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  12. BigBravo21

    BigBravo21

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    18
    I have always raced dirty (because everyone else does, so make it a level playing field lol) so I'm fine with it as it is.
     
  13. Foxis

    Foxis

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    181
    So you are bragging about your inability to race cleanly and still come out ahead? Yeah, winning by cheating must feel like a good achievement.

    I am going to guess that your are quite young. If so, my advice would be to take learning racing technique more seriously, especially if you plan to ever race cars around a real track. It's going to be quite hard to unlearn your bad technique.
     
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  14. ynot

    ynot

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    1,504
    So don't be surprised when you get booted from lobbies as soon as you enter one. Thanks for letting us know up front.
     
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  15. GeoQuin4

    GeoQuin4

    Messages:
    331
    Location:
    United States
    I for one am so effing tired of my SR going down because other people can’t drive for crap and get into me, or put me in a situation I can’t get out of. The system needs A LOT of work. Tired of being stuck with these aholes that drive so dirty!
     
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  16. Foxis

    Foxis

    Messages:
    181
    Agreed. The only advice I can offer which has helped me some is this:
    Drive in a cockpit with a good rear view mirror (or in bumper view) and make sure to not be directly in front of the guy behind when braking. Since I started stepping off the optimal braking line and braking a bit earlier I can't count the number of times the idiot behind has come flying into the corner. I have happily just watched it happen and driven away with an SR boost due to a clean overtake.

    It takes a bit of extra effort to check the mirror when entering a corner, and it may slow you down some (since you don't get the perfect line into the corner), but it's much better than being slammed into the barrier.
     
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  17. ZWValandil

    ZWValandil

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    6
    Same problems here.....
     
  18. Foxis

    Foxis

    Messages:
    181
    I noticed the same thing earlier today. I accidentally bumped someone (he braked way earlier than expected and had just overtaken me so we were close). I did *not* get any penalty, despite him going off track.

    So, we have "evidence" from several people, from both sides of the issue (victim and perp), and everything points to an uneven distribution of punishment in the case of contact during braking.

    My hunch is this may be related to an attempt to judge whether the front car is braking in the "wrong" position therefor being at fault. However, if this is the case, the system is not a no-fault system.
    Has anyone observed a penalty for blocking (getting bumped into on a straight for example)?
     
    TCG likes this.
  19. RAMSAM

    RAMSAM

    Messages:
    43
    Location:
    Canada
    That's exactly why I consider that new feature a genius one. It is far from perfect at this moment but it surely conscientise drivers of consequences to be dirty and we can observe the benefits already. And more important, those who didn't understand the good sense yet won't be mix with higher SR rating drivers. Mission accomplish!
     
    deviln3 likes this.
  20. The folks in this thread with big complaints seem to be posting right after an incident or two, with their blood boiling. You really have to just try and drive defensively and alertly over the course of 10s of races, not just 2. If you keep getting SR drops, at some point you have to ask yourself why you continually put your car in positions where you can get *****d by bad drivers.

    I know this system is working because it's modelled on iRacing, and in iRacing you get EXACTLY the same whinging when folks start out and think they're going to get getting podiums and wonder why they're always getting involved in big wrecks.

    You guys need to be patient, use the radar, use the moving track map to see if a car is further behind outside the radar. You need to go wide into asphalt run offs to let idiots go past. Drive the car like bad contact will cost you thousands of dollars, because that's how people in SR-S class drive them.

    I was patient, I was very careful, and after around 30 races I have moved up to S safety rating and it's great.
     
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  21. Cfft555

    Cfft555

    Messages:
    137
    Location:
    Australia
    From further playing I feel like the SR system is actually working pretty well. I rarely get hit with penalties, but am taking alot of care in hitting my points and giving room to others.
    I feel that people complaining are thinking they are driving cleanly, but infact are either missing braking points early or late, not providing room to people in passing positions, going off track and returning into dangerous situations.
     
    ynot likes this.
  22. toddstar77

    toddstar77

    Messages:
    156
    Definitely for me it's about situational awareness and also not letting your emotions impact your driving, I know it's hard when you get dive bombed and some guy bumps into your side panels but in reality give it a couple of corners and those guys/girls will make other mistakes where you can make a clean pass.. getting into a bit or push and shove is a just a sure fire way of taking that A/B rating down to C/D pretty quickly - and then you are back in the cesspits of drivers.
     
  23. Ashthebash

    Ashthebash

    Messages:
    132
    It is about situational awareness but at some point you have to turn in! There have been plenty I've let fly up the inside and cut back on them but you can't always do it and you can't always avoid contact, no matter how hard you try. If people want to throw one up the inside and t-bone you when they have no chance of passing legit then they will and you'll get a pen. You may also get a pen for your recovery onto the track (especially if it's in the chicane area of Kyoto track). 12-15s pen, plus places lost, doesn't really compare to the 10s pen and place gained that the aggressor gets.

    Hopefully S rank will be as good as it's made out to be, I'm tempted to do a bit of driving Miss Daisy to get there... but I like to race!
     
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  24. Spitfire77

    Spitfire77

    Messages:
    1,152
    Location:
    United States
    Some people have mastered the edge of what you can do without being penalized.. it's annoying they don't spend the time improving their racecraft instead. Mostly I've had great experiences.. just a couple of these professional tappers
     
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  25. toddstar77

    toddstar77

    Messages:
    156
    definitely agree that you cannot always avoid bumps/crashes there are plenty of muppets out there who brake late and hope for a bumper car to slow them and then there are those who are just over zealous... point was more you just have to accept those idiots for that small moment in time, move out of the way if you can, move on if you can't.
     
  26. ZEROTHEKNIGHT

    ZEROTHEKNIGHT

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    356
    Location:
    Kuwait
    Just a question.
    I notice the CPU on nurburgring giving turning signal then holding the signal pointed position allowing you to pass cleanly ( i think in case you were aggressive behind his tail ) so does the drivers online use the turning signals to avoid collision ?
     
  27. kitchenboy

    kitchenboy

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    112
    Location:
    South Africa
    Actu
    actually if you check the profile it says 64 year old male, so i guess wisdom does not automatically come with age, its not the only forum he bragged about driving dirty
     
  28. hrtrob

    hrtrob

    Messages:
    126
    I thought the system was good as I was having nice clean Gr.3 races for the past couple of days with SR-A until today when some idiot deliberately tapped me on my left rear on a straight section of the track, causing me to spin out on the last lap. The offender was not penalised and even ranked up.

    After this particular race I am now at SR-S but I'm not going to keep my hopes up as the system is obviously flawed

     
    Last edited: Oct 30, 2017
  29. GTWelsh

    GTWelsh Premium

    Messages:
    2,267
    Location:
    Wales
    (Not aimed at you specifically, but I feel it needs saying)

    The offender may of had a purely clean race up to that point, and then on balance, ranked up. It's playing the system yes, but unless they're going to pay someone to sit there and use human intuition to properly judge these things in every race it's always going to be like this.

    It's just one of those things, keep at it, rankings will balance out and settle and the crashers will eventually either get bored or get demoted.
     
    Last edited: Oct 30, 2017
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  30. Dairyworker

    Dairyworker

    Messages:
    761
    Location:
    Canada
    The system is not percect but i find it to be pretty good. My biggest issue right now is being pushed onto the grass on the outside of tbe second big sweeper on kyoto. Not sure if it is i tentional or not. Sometimes you go to hot inside i have done it, but i also make sure to send an apology msg after the race and if possible will slow down to keep him in front of me in the race. I have not been receiving any msgs though.
     
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