Standard of driving

Like total lack of judgement? There is no other explanation for trying to pass in the chicane on the top of the hill in Bathurst as at many other places. Yet it is the fault of the single player where sticking a nose next to the AI is usually effective and encouraged by the game. Got to overtake them all.

What do you guys think of someone driving in the middle of the road on narrow straights to prevent overtakes? It's effective as the trailing car has to drive half in the grass and slows down. I had such a blocker in one of my races yesterday after he bump passed me in lap 1 while I was behind traffic. Penalty system won't do anything about driving like a donkey.

I was passed in that chicane, it was a bold move, and it was only thanks to me not forcing "the issue" that we stayed out of trouble. But even if it was me that was the victim, when i watched the replay i would call it a very aggressive move but still, not a clear cut case of bad driving. And for the next laps he seemed to race clean enough in a tight fight with another car. So it was more a case of taking a wild chance and getting away with it. In the last corner on the last lap i did the same to him and he lost a place, and it goes without saying that i might have been more careful if it weren't for him setting the standards earlier.

The narrow track thing it what makes certain tracks unpassable in real racing and to some extent in GTS where passing on grass is still possible. What you do is make a move and see if the car in front moves to BLOCK, with that move he just used up his defensive maneuvers and the next move will be illegal (unless schumacher situation). Driving in the middle of a narrow track is a valid tactic..
 
I agree with the majority of what you wrote but I still feel that a comparison to GTA Online is necessary. Tons of gamers race and play in GTA Online and despite that vastly different design intention between both games, many of those people come over to GT Sport and think that they're racing clean and fair.

Yay and nay. Many GTAO players will race in GT Sport, but to assume they think they are racing clean is a bit off. GTAO racers do vary in style and a lot tend towards demo derby, knowing their methods wouldn't pass on a race track, others are far more consciensious and try to give room and race fairly. Said traits are carried over and the more agressive racer who cares little for good driving in a game generally drives badly in GT Sport as well (and cares nothing for ranking). The others tend to do the same as in they play fair and decent. Finally the casuals will vary but tend towards a laisse fare manner and care little for some nudging and the odd mistake and equally care little for ranking.

As for Newbies they are a necessary pest in that they have to learn. Generally they do try to be careful and if you give them room you won't have a problem.

Ultimately I agree with keeping playing, but I think PD could do a lot to help, but adjusting the thresholds of the penalties/rewards to give increased reward for consistancy and good driving while giving increasing penalties for continued (cumultive) infraction. Also the same rewards should be copied over to the private lobbies so that a group of aspiring e racers can spar and train and boost their ranks against players who aren't likely to scupper their race.
 
Very interesting discussion. I like how @Alpha Cipher and @Sven Jurgens have slightly different points of views regarding blocking in straight, yet I can accept both of them. I shouldn't consider a steady line on the middle of the track unfair, it is absolutely the right of the driver in front. In narrow track it is a block, in a wider one it is not. Changing the lane (weaving) is the problem.
However, even if I like Sven's point of view*, and feel it being close to mine, I am slowly going to the direction of giving up that thoughtful approach. For 2 reasons: most of the "players" doesn't deserve, and most of them even doesn't understand. They think being cautious and fair is a weakness. (And that's why I keep on thinking that a badly executed online racing system teaches wrong and getting everybody to a wrong direction.)

A cardinal point in track racing is trust in the opponents. That is totally missing in GTS. As I read this topic, now I can say I'd happily go side-by-side either with Sven or with Alpha for example in the Suzuka esses, I trust them. But being matchmaked with unknown opponents, backed (and trained) by this penalty system, I am very far from this trust. And with good reasons, based upon the experiences.

* there are some turns which are faster with a wide in, late apex. Last time I started a race this way I wanted to trust the 2nd place guy, I thought he also knows that this way we will be faster, we can build some comfortable space from the rest of the field for us to fight. But instead of this, he put his nose inside, slightly bumped me out, we both lost the good line, and the field was in our back immediately. Cooperating in a fair way - without teaming against the others - is the _smart_ approach in my vocabulary, not the "tricking out and using the vulnerabilities of the penalty system"-style.
 
Very interesting discussion. I like how @Alpha Cipher and @Sven Jurgens have slightly different points of views regarding blocking in straight, yet I can accept both of them. I shouldn't consider a steady line on the middle of the track unfair, it is absolutely the right of the driver in front. In narrow track it is a block, in a wider one it is not. Changing the lane (weaving) is the problem.
However, even if I like Sven's point of view*, and feel it being close to mine, I am slowly going to the direction of giving up that thoughtful approach. For 2 reasons: most of the "players" doesn't deserve, and most of them even doesn't understand. They think being cautious and fair is a weakness. (And that's why I keep on thinking that a badly executed online racing system teaches wrong and getting everybody to a wrong direction.)
I also see both points of view, and favour @Sven Jurgens .
I think a lot of people use the term "block" and "defend" as the same... and they are not.
While I understand driving down the middle of a narrow road is not "illegal", you are leaving your opponent no choice but to slow down... you are now impeding another car, it is no longer a defensive position, it is a block... you have left your opponent no alternate line, no choice...
A defensive position allows other racers to continue racing at pace on an alternate line...
A block causes another car to have no choice but to back off and concede (or go off track, which, is also unsportsmanlike)... that is no longer racing, nor is it a defensive position, it is simply impeding... aka blocking... aka, not defensive racing.

I watched... mmm... ~15hrs (maybe more) of the 24hr Nurb last weekend, and never once saw a car intentionally driving down the center of a narrow bit when being "raced". It was always pick the side that provided good corner strategy (to the next corner), and let things be what they may.

My .02
 
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Technically driving in the middle of the road on a narrow track is the same as weave blocking with an amplitude of zero.
While weave blocking is the same as choosing where you want to drive, a sine pattern is a line too :)

What's the spirit behind the one line change rule, ie no weave blocking? I agree with @cleanLX that it's not to impede the other car beyond one defensive move.

Yet I also agree with @TamasToth, it's hard to trust opponents, especially the impatient ones that have to pass instantly. I wish there was a high five button on the controller for when you actually find someone that can drive clean through several corners side by side. I had one such opponent on Bathurst yesterday, we were dead even coming out of the corner to the downhill section, stayed side by side all the way to the final turn while hardly losing pace. I'm like damn you're awesome.
 
Is this of any help ?



Edited to avoid double posting :

Technically driving in the middle of the road on a narrow track is the same as weave blocking with an amplitude of zero.
While weave blocking is the same as choosing where you want to drive, a sine pattern is a line too :) ...

Sven, was it really necessary to mix up things like that ?
Nobody was defending weaving.

Btw what about "sawtooth weaving" - it'd be moving in straight lines at least :lol: ...
 
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I'm not a fan of anyone going off track, corner cutting or excessive curb abuse. I'm not a fan of blocking in general yet I understand it is a valid tactic and not illegal. Perhaps the game needs a GR rating next to SR, gentleman rating :) I'll keep leaving room for people where it's safe to do so. To me someone passing me cleanly is as rewarding as making a clean pass myself. It takes two to facilitate a clean pass and there's nothing more fun than swapping positions multiple times during a race.

Of course it can be thrilling too to hold off the pursuer in the final lap, but I'll do that by concentrating on the best corner exit while trying to keep the door closed at corner entry. I never block on the straight to the finish, the most exciting finish I had was a virtual tie. Can't recreate that feeling by blocking.

I've raced so much now I already know by the gap time at corner exit whether I'm going to let the car behind me pass. Perhaps I'm simply addicted to following cleanly. It's the bigger rush for me rather than blocking. It's also nicer to have your fate in your own hands :)
A GR rating would be nice, and it would show the aggressiveness of a driver. Say someone is a GR B, they're not necessarily dirty, but they are really aggressive. A GR S would mean they are more cautious :)
I find swapping positions fun as well, but I'm sort of competitive so I try not to do that often in Sport mode :lol:

And of course, while I do force people to put two wheels on the grass when passing me on a narrow straight, I still try to do what I can so they can get a nice pass, if they can. An example would be the slight right hander in Bathurst. If they put two wheels on the grass to the right, I'll use the slightly outside line on the right-hander since I know that it's almost impossible to turn without either spinning out or going back to the track

In home straights where the road is wide, I honestly don't really know how to block there :lol: there's just so many possible moves that you can't cover them all in one move, so I just set myself up with the best exit on the final corner. It's a great feeling when you take the late exit line on the last corner at DT so you can cutback your opponents at the last moment :D

In the end I guess we just have different strokes, but I think our points are just as valid :)
I also see both points of view, and favour @Sven Jurgens .
I think a lot of people use the term "block" and "defend" as the same... and they are not.
While I understand driving down the middle of a narrow road is not "illegal", you are leaving your opponent no choice but to slow down... you are now impeding another car, it is no longer a defensive position, it is a block... you have left your opponent no alternate line, no choice...
A defensive position allows other racers to continue racing at pace on an alternate line...
A block causes another car to have no choice but to back off and concede (or go off track, which, is also unsportsmanlike)... that is no longer racing, nor is it a defensive position, it is simply impeding... aka blocking... aka, not defensive racing.

I watched... mmm... ~15hrs (maybe more) of the 24hr Nurb last weekend, and never once saw a car intentionally driving down the center of a narrow bit when being "raced". It was always pick the side that provided good corner strategy (to the next corner), and let things be what they may.

My .02
I only think those blocks are illegal if you do them illegally (weaving etc.). Defensive driving is being able to keep your position while still keeping up the pace, as well as your opponent on an alternative line so you two don't lose much time. Blocking is the maneuver that you make to keep your position. Honestly for me, like I said before, a good block is one that specifically impedes your opponent to the point that they can only either concede or do a dirty move. It's something like a check in chess
 
Standard of driving is up to you. There is no control over other people. It is always going to come down to how you handle bad/dirty drivers.
 
I feel don't block on straights. Fine, make your one move to guard the inside line. Don't block on a straight and then while the car is gaining, decide to move over.

There's a player that blocks at the start of every race. Blocked on straights and runs wide on turns. To the point where they were targeted to get them off the track. Forget reporting that driver. No form of fair driving standard at all. And that person usually starts from pole!

In most cases, if players give room, allow the pass and don't move extra, they van gap the field. Causing too much grief actually leads to slower times from all parties involved.

I've had some awesome races by swapping places. I've even been ahead for corners and backed off, for the sake of it would slow us both.
 
I feel don't block on straights. Fine, make your one move to guard the inside line. Don't block on a straight and then while the car is gaining, decide to move over.

There's a player that blocks at the start of every race. Blocked on straights and runs wide on turns. To the point where they were targeted to get them off the track. Forget reporting that driver. No form of fair driving standard at all. And that person usually starts from pole!

In most cases, if players give room, allow the pass and don't move extra, they van gap the field. Causing too much grief actually leads to slower times from all parties involved.

I've had some awesome races by swapping places. I've even been ahead for corners and backed off, for the sake of it would slow us both.
Most racers don't race that way...

Edit: maybe I should have said most people and not racers
 
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Is this of any help ?



Edited to avoid double posting :



Sven, was it really necessary to mix up things like that ?
Nobody was defending weaving.

Btw what about "sawtooth weaving" - it'd be moving in straight lines at least :lol: ...


Great video, so many people would get penalties if that was adhered to lol. Reacting to the move the driver behinds makes happens constantly in sport mode. Pick a line, avoid confusion.

Unfortunately they didn't address narrow tracks. My comment was more about what the difference is between blocking the entire road by weaving or by driving down the middle of a narrow track not leaving a car width on either side. Where do you draw the line. Which is also addressed in that video in the form of try to make the car wide and essentially get a little sneaky to avoid getting called out on blocking. A little squeeze to the right or left of the center line, coincidence, lag or driving the mirror. Anyway, I'm a firm believer of reap what you sow.

Yellow to red connections already sawtooth weave by default, they're a nightmare on narrow tracks :/
 
Unfortunately they didn't address narrow tracks. My comment was more about what the difference is between blocking the entire road by weaving or by driving down the middle of a narrow track not leaving a car width on either side. Where do you draw the line. Which is also addressed in that video in the form of try to make the car wide and essentially get a little sneaky to avoid getting called out on blocking. A little squeeze to the right or left of the center line, coincidence, lag or driving the mirror. Anyway, I'm a firm believer of reap what you sow.

Yellow to red connections already sawtooth weave by default, they're a nightmare on narrow tracks :/

On a narrow track you place your car in the middle and make it as hard as possible for the car behind to pass you. And it is ok, anything else would be like moving out of the way to help the car behind you pass.
 
I think defensive driving when you're racing someone who's the same speed as you is fine, it's not fine when the person behind has taken 2 secs out of you in half a lap, and then you "defend" your position.

You made half a point here - if I was the slow driver I'd actually start consider moving out of the way and letting him pass, probably :lol: ...
But besides that, an honest and humble question, ... WHY ? Why shouldn't the slow driver have the same rights to defend his position like anybody else ? If I was the quick guy behind, I'd show all my respect and wait for my chance to overtake ... as always.
 
You made half a point here - if I was the slow driver I'd actually start consider moving out of the way and letting him pass, probably :lol: ...
But besides that, an honest and humble question, ... WHY ? Why shouldn't the slow driver have the same rights to defend his position like anybody else ? If I was the quick guy behind, I'd show all my respect and wait for my chance to overtake ... as always.

If the person behind is obviously much quicker, then for me, racing etiquette would be to let that person by to get on with their race and I carry on with mine. The situation I'm talking about is when you get fast guys coming back through the field after an incident.
 
If the person behind is obviously much quicker, then for me, racing etiquette would be to let that person by to get on with their race and I carry on with mine. The situation I'm talking about is when you get fast guys coming back through the field after an incident.

Sometimes, the fast guy making his way back through the field after an incident ... is me :). Sadly ( and luckily ) incidents belong to racing and I wouldn't expect the field to move aside for me. The annoying thing is the incident, especially when it's been another driver's fault or intention 👍.
 
I don't know how much attention everyone contributes to looking at the leaderboard before or during a race. Obviously longer race's are easier to get familiar with everyone in a race. For me it's easy to tell what people are seconds faster than me vs those who are racing me for position.

I will just let those who are much faster than myself on by without a fight as it will cost me time to try and race them or hold them off. Now someone who is or has been racing me for position most of the race is when I will not make it easy for them to pass. A lot of time these people are faster than you in a certain section of the track but you will be quicker everywhere else.
 
On a narrow track you place your car in the middle and make it as hard as possible for the car behind to pass you. And it is ok, anything else would be like moving out of the way to help the car behind you pass.

If the person behind is obviously much quicker, then for me, racing etiquette would be to let that person by to get on with their race and I carry on with mine. The situation I'm talking about is when you get fast guys coming back through the field after an incident.

I move out of the way as then I can draft them and find out why they are faster than me by looking at their lines and braking points. If you manage a significantly faster corner exit than me, I'll make room as I want to see how you did that :)

Of course there are plenty exceptions. If I'm already on the bumper of the car in front of me then I really don't want another car next to me to get boxed in. Also there needs to be enough straight left to make a pass as you sadly can't trust anyone to keep their nose to themselves in corners.
 
... If you manage a significantly faster corner exit than me, I'll make room as I want to see how you did that :)

Well, if we ever get to meet in a race, I'll count on you : You let me pass at the end of lap 1 👍, follow me, just to watch me intentionally perform my worst corner exit ever at the end of lap 2 :D ... and then defend hard :lol: !
 
The line changing reminds me of a race I saw recently with Kie25 in it. A good example of safe defending while trying to break slipstreams. It looks irritating to the driver behind but I'd say it's an allowed practise.



As I understand it, you have to leave a car's width free when you're defending. Barrelling down the centre of Conrod or most of the Green Hell would be borderline blocking in my opinion.
 
The line changing reminds me of a race I saw recently with Kie25 in it. A good example of safe defending while trying to break slipstreams. It looks irritating to the driver behind but I'd say it's an allowed practise.



As I understand it, you have to leave a car's width free when you're defending. Barrelling down the centre of Conrod or most of the Green Hell would be borderline blocking in my opinion.


Nice video, mate - nothing wrong with his defense indeed.

Defending on Mountain or Conrod Straight for sure's borderline / greyzone. I haven't found any document yet regarding defense on a narrow track. Said carwidth room rule was introduced after a duel between Schumacher and Hamilton afaik. It's always and only mentioned in combination with / after making 2 defensive moves, so still not sure if it can be applied to racing on a narrow track.
 
There's nowhere so narrow you can't put two cars side by side so it stands to reason that you leave a car width if there's a car vying with you. You either take the optimum line or you defend as sitting in the middle leaves a half open door (and crap exit) and judging by the dailies, that's all they need to give it a go. They'd be better off taking the right line a bit slower and getting the power down earlier, while trying to break the rhythm of the quicker car behind.

Imagine someone taking that middle line at Horse Thief Mile. You'd have a procession.
 
I move out of the way as then I can draft them and find out why they are faster than me by looking at their lines and braking points. If you manage a significantly faster corner exit than me, I'll make room as I want to see how you did that :)

Of course there are plenty exceptions. If I'm already on the bumper of the car in front of me then I really don't want another car next to me to get boxed in. Also there needs to be enough straight left to make a pass as you sadly can't trust anyone to keep their nose to themselves in corners.

There is an alternative as demonstrated here 10 minutes ago :)

 
Is the standard of driving getting worse and worse in sport mode?? It used to be civilised in a way now its bad. I got spun out by a person in the Gr.3 blue moon raceway race.

When I hold the racing line you still have people not respecting that rule and still trying to overtake which leads to a spin out.
 
I move out of the way as then I can draft them and find out why they are faster than me by looking at their lines and braking points. If you manage a significantly faster corner exit than me, I'll make room as I want to see how you did that :)

Honestly the only time I hate defensive driving is on the early laps. It causes an unnecessary gap from the lead pack making it practically impossible to catch up. Just from a shared goal of trying to win first place you'd think the 5th place guy wouldn't tank his lap times just to keep the entire track behind him because he lost too much speed on corner 2.

When we get later into the race and it's clear the the war is over 5th place, I'm fine with everything but weave blocking. Actually, the more defensive the lead driver is, the easier it is to pass. If they just ran a wide defensive line it's hard as hell to pass them, but if they're actively changing lines to block then it can be easier to throw a feint, ruin their exit speed, and pass them on the straight. But all of this fighting slows down your lap time and is only worth it if you're abandoning your chances at a higher position.
 

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