STAR WARS General Discussion | Warning: Possible SPOILERS!Movies

[JKgo]

Spoiler

A fair point no doubt but I think it comes to not only him being emotionally compromised and as you mentioned (which I actually forgot!) being previously injured, he was so beset on retrieving the whereabouts of Luke and now his lightsaber that it probably amounts to nothing more than an incredible lapse in judgment - something he's plenty familiar with as we've seen. We know Ren is capable, perhaps more so than Vader (he definitely has a bit more of an evil streak to him) but all throughout the movie he hasn't been planted on either side of the force.

Should Rey have posed that much of a threat so early on? It's a little hard to say without knowing more because he was shaken up earlier by her Vader comment, shaken up even earlier than that by discovering there were latent abilities awakening within her while he was trying to force information out of her, and perhaps even more than he just impaled his father which clearly had an effect on him as you could see in facial expressions when he confronted both Rey and Finn.

I don't think it's as easy as "Well Ren was better in almost every conceivable way." because while that's almost certainly true he was torn in too many different directions to assert that.

...I think there were one or two scenes or lines of dialogue that were cut, that maybe could have given more context to the situation, and the development of the character.

I can only think of one concrete moment when Ren's reaction hinted at his shaken psych:

Spoiler

...when he arrogantly tried to summon Luke's saber but it didn't respond to his calling, rather at Rey's - hell, rejection's a bitch y'know.

 

[NLxAROSA]

Spoiler: Yep, another one. Getting tired already...

the level gap should be too wide to be bridged by sudden and rather convenient lapse in judgement, especially when earlier he was "pushed" back by Rey's another equally opportunistic and timely awakening...
Yes, I'm aware coming into contact with Luke's saber "may have triggered" something in her, but even with that scene, Kylo shouldn't have been in that much of a disadvantage. Incomplete training or not, it's still better than someone with no training.
Handling a staff and a saber should also be quite different, so her adopting to it that quickly is a stuff straight out of anime.
Yes, he got shot by Chewie too, and that might have been a bigger issue of all, but as witnessed by Finn fight, it shouldn't have affected him that badly either.

Spoiler

Rather than being a matter of skill/experience, I presume that Ren doesn't want to kill her but see if he can turn her instead, so he's not really trying that hard. But her aptitude catches him by surprise, and when the planet rupts the fight comes to and end rather undecidedly.

 

[JKgo]

Spoiler

Rather than being a matter of skill/experience, I presume that Ren doesn't want to kill her but see if he can turn her instead, so he's not really trying that hard. But her aptitude catches him by surprise, and when the planet rupts the fight comes to and end rather undecidedly.

...True, he did try, didn't he.

Me thinks...

Spoiler

Ren and Rey are family. He feels it, but unsure. Rey too senses something's a miss. Maybe that's the justification Kasdan and Abrams might use when the inevitable Ren-Snoke excuse-making scene takes place next film. Who knows.

As for the victor, I think it was pretty clear who stood tall after all that tree-cutting, don't you think?

 

[Terronium-12]

...I think there were one or two scenes or lines of dialogue that were cut, that maybe could have given more context to the situation, and the development of the character.

I can only think of one concrete moment when Ren's reaction hinted at his shaken psych:

Spoiler

...when he arrogantly tried to summon Luke's saber but it didn't respond to his calling, rather at Rey's - hell, rejection's a bitch y'know.

That's practically guaranteed but we'll know for certain on April 5th.

Spoiler

I agree that that may have damaged his ego more than it probably already had been, but if anything I would consider that more a point of intense outrage and not something that would cloud his judgment.

Then again, like I said (and believe to an extent) he isn't really firmed planted on either side at the moment so he can't really channel anything other than temper tantrums.

That one scene with the Stormtroopers "noping' out of that hallway during his last tantrum is still great.

 

[ECGadget]

That's practically guaranteed but we'll know for certain on April 5th.

Spoiler

I agree that that may have damaged his ego more than it probably already had been, but if anything I would consider that more a point of intense outrage and not something that would cloud his judgment.

Then again, like I said (and believe to an extent) he isn't really firmed planted on either side at the moment so he can't really channel anything other than temper tantrums.

That one scene with the Stormtroopers "noping' out of that hallway during his last tantrum is still great.

Agreed with the last bit of what you said. Everyone in the cinema started chuckling at that. Reminded me a little of the part in A New Hope where R2 and 3PO walk in the crossfire without a scratch. But only vaguely

 

[CodeRedR51]

So how long do we give people to see this movie before we ditch the spoiler tags? 4 weeks?

 

[Terronium-12]

So how long do we give people to see this movie before we ditch the spoiler tags? 4 weeks?

While that sounds fair it introduces an entirely new problem: what if whomever haven't seen it by now couldn't see it for whatever reason?

It's only partially negated by "SPOILERS" being in the thread title but if my time here has taught me anything it's that people don't really read thread titles.

 

[SlipZtrEm]

Saw it again yesterday with my girlfriend. She was surprisingly indifferent – didn't hate it, didn't love it – but we talked about two things I didn't think about the first go-round:

Spoiler

• When Finn, Rey, and BB-8 first escape off Jakku, and the one officer comes to Ren literally hat-in-hand to give him the bad news before the hilarious tantrum, Kylo then immediately has a change in attitude when the officer mentions "a girl". I forgot about that.
• Remember Luke's voiceover in the earlier trailer about his family?!

 

[CodeRedR51]

While that sounds fair it introduces an entirely new problem: what if whomever haven't seen it by now couldn't see it for whatever reason?

It's only partially negated by "SPOILERS" being in the thread title but if my time here has taught me anything it's that people don't really read thread titles.

I was just thinking there has to be some sort of timeline. I think it would be hilarious for us to be using spoiler tags still in February. Maybe put something in the first post of this thread that warns newcomers about possible spoilers and that spoiler tags are no longer used after a certain period of time, etc.

 

[Terronium-12]

I was just thinking there has to be some sort of timeline. I think it would be hilarious for us to be using spoiler tags still in February. Maybe put something in the first post of this thread that warns newcomers about possible spoilers and that spoiler tags are no longer used after a certain period of time, etc.

We'll say January 11th is the cutoff point and from thereon out spoiler tags are no longer mandatory.

 

[CodeRedR51]

We'll say January 11th is the cutoff point and from thereon out spoiler tags are no longer mandatory.

Works for me.

 

[Terronium-12]

It's amazing how I went from this in 2012:

No. Absolutely no.

To where I am now all giddy about Star Wars again. Episodes I-III really left a mark on me for better and worse.

Saw it again yesterday with my girlfriend. She was surprisingly indifferent – didn't hate it, didn't love it – but we talked about two things I didn't think about the first go-round:

Spoiler

• When Finn, Rey, and BB-8 first escape off Jakku, and the one officer comes to Ren literally hat-in-hand to give him the bad news before the hilarious tantrum, Kylo then immediately has a change in attitude when the officer mentions "a girl". I forgot about that.
• Remember Luke's voiceover in the earlier trailer about his family?!

Spoiler

I'd forgotten about the trailer voiceover but the first point is interesting because I think we're all thinking they're related because there's this natural tension between the two of them before they even lay eyes on one another. I'm really interested in the family dynamic now because there's Leia who's undoubtedly going to be super pissed yet hopeful Ben will come back to the light side, Luke who's been scorned, and now presumably Rey.

 

[AnthonyD1993]

I finally saw The Force Awakens today and loved it. I thought it was far, far better than any other move I've watched this year. I did have a couple of minor gripes, though, but they didn't kill the movie. I'll certainly be buying this when its out for Blu-Ray.

Spoiler

I really felt is if Ren was going to kill Han long before it even happened. The earlier movie buildup made it far, far too obvious that he was going to get killed. I also was a little confused as to Po could singlehandedly destroy the cannon. If the defense systems were taking out the X-wings when they were flying as a squadron, how in the hell could once single x-wing survive undamaged if it was the sole focus of all of the defense systems? They were clearly on when he was flying, so either Poe was a wizard that could outmaneuver the rounds (which seems to be a tall task even for an ace pilot) or the systems were shut off just before he got to the core of the defense system.

 

[DK]

I finally saw The Force Awakens today and loved it. I thought it was far, far better than any other move I've watched this year. I did have a couple of minor gripes, though, but they didn't kill the movie. I'll certainly be buying this when its out for Blu-Ray.

Spoiler

I really felt is if Ren was going to kill Han long before it even happened. The earlier movie buildup made it far, far too obvious that he was going to get killed. I also was a little confused as to Po could singlehandedly destroy the cannon. If the defense systems were taking out the X-wings when they were flying as a squadron, how in the hell could once single x-wing survive undamaged if it was the sole focus of all of the defense systems? They were clearly on when he was flying, so either Poe was a wizard that could outmaneuver the rounds (which seems to be a tall task even for an ace pilot) or the systems were shut off just before he got to the core of the defense system.

Spoiler

I think I remember someone in this thread posting a couple of frames from a recent Star Wars comic showing Luke with someone who could be Poe's mother.

 

[CodeRedR51]

Spoiler

I think I remember someone in this thread posting a couple of frames from a recent Star Wars comic showing Luke with someone who could be Poe's mother.

Spoiler

I think I heard about this, it was either a comic or a book that detailed Poe's parents? The guys on Collider Jedi Council mentioned it a few times.

 

[DK]

Spoiler

I think I heard about this, it was either a comic or a book that detailed Poe's parents? The guys on Collider Jedi Council mentioned it a few times.

Spoiler

I just checked Wookieepedia, Luke's not his father.

I still think he's Force-sensitive, though.

 

[jimipitbull]

Spoiler

I just checked Wookieepedia, Luke's not his father.

I still think he's Force-sensitive, though.

Spoiler

I predict Poe and Rey to be half brother/sister - same mum different dads, with Rey being Luke's daughter. Finn seems attracted to both of them, so there may be another weird love triangle thing going on.

 

[FoolKiller]

I saw it last week. I have some thoughts to add that I've heard on a couple of podcasts.

Spoiler

Rey's ability to use the force the way she does seems like quite a gap. People are constantly trying to make her Luke's daughter. That misses another big thing.

Luke had restarted the Jedi Academy. Kyle Ren went all Vader obsessed and destroyed it all. Rey's earliest memory is of being "abandoned" on Jakku. She has no memory of her parents. It is highly possible that Rey was a student and Luke hid her on a remote, desert planet much like he was. In her memory a hand reaches out to take her and says something about it being time to go or that she would be OK. She wasn't left alone, so whoever dropped her off left her with a guardian. One idea I heard said it was the guy she was selling scrap to, but I need to rewatch it to see if they seem more familiar than just a regular customer relationship would explain. It does seem odd that when he was shorting her that she only complained that the price was higher previously. No haggling, no fighting, no going to competitors. No way Jakku only has room for one scrap dealer.

I like this theory better, mainly because it explains an apparent plot hole and JJ Abrams is notorious for red herrings.


Also, Daniel Craig cameo...who caught it?

 

[CodeRedR51]

I saw it last week. I have some thoughts to add that I've heard on a couple of podcasts.

Spoiler

Rey's ability to use the force the way she does seems like quite a gap. People are constantly trying to make her Luke's daughter. That misses another big thing.

Luke had restarted the Jedi Academy. Kyle Ren went all Vader obsessed and destroyed it all. Rey's earliest memory is of being "abandoned" on Jakku. She has no memory of her parents. It is highly possible that Rey was a student and Luke hid her on a remote, desert planet much like he was. In her memory a hand reaches out to take her and says something about it being time to go or that she would be OK. She wasn't left alone, so whoever dropped her off left her with a guardian. One idea I heard said it was the guy she was selling scrap to, but I need to rewatch it to see if they seem more familiar than just a regular customer relationship would explain. It does seem odd that when he was shorting her that she only complained that the price was higher previously. No haggling, no fighting, no going to competitors. No way Jakku only has room for one scrap dealer.

I like this theory better, mainly because it explains an apparent plot hole and JJ Abrams is notorious for red herrings.


Also, Daniel Craig cameo...who caught it?

Spoiler

The Daniel Craig thing is all over now. 👍

 

[niky]

Spoiler

I predict Poe and Rey to be half brother/sister - same mum different dads, with Rey being Luke's daughter. Finn seems attracted to both of them, so there may be another weird love triangle thing going on.

Spoiler

Not only a gay Star Wars character, but a bisexual one in a three-way relationship. That would be a first for a tentpole movie.

But seriously, the Finn-Po dynamic strikes me as simply a "bro" thing, Po is the first 'bro' in Finn's life, which is why he's taken a shining to him, however short their bonding time was before the crash.

I saw it last week. I have some thoughts to add that I've heard on a couple of podcasts.

Spoiler

Rey's ability to use the force the way she does seems like quite a gap. People are constantly trying to make her Luke's daughter. That misses another big thing.

Luke had restarted the Jedi Academy. Kyle Ren went all Vader obsessed and destroyed it all. Rey's earliest memory is of being "abandoned" on Jakku. She has no memory of her parents. It is highly possible that Rey was a student and Luke hid her on a remote, desert planet much like he was. In her memory a hand reaches out to take her and says something about it being time to go or that she would be OK. She wasn't left alone, so whoever dropped her off left her with a guardian. One idea I heard said it was the guy she was selling scrap to, but I need to rewatch it to see if they seem more familiar than just a regular customer relationship would explain. It does seem odd that when he was shorting her that she only complained that the price was higher previously. No haggling, no fighting, no going to competitors. No way Jakku only has room for one scrap dealer.

I like this theory better, mainly because it explains an apparent plot hole and JJ Abrams is notorious for red herrings.


Also, Daniel Craig cameo...who caught it?

Spoiler

I think adding a few more clues in the Force flashback would have helped make Rey's sudden Force abilities look less like a clumsy "Deus Ex Machina" plot device... but I think the possibilities of her being a hidden padawan, whether Skywalker or not, a big possibility.

Of course, the very obvious fact that she doesn't give a last name (chooses not to, or just doesn't know?) is a big tip-off that they're saving that fact for the next movie.

Also, I wonder, once again:

Spoiler

How many people think that Han's "death" was written specifically for plausible deniability, just in case Harrison Ford is willing to come back for Episode VIII?

They went to great pains to elaborate how crude Ben's weapon is, and we know that Finn survived a killing stroke at point blank range, and somehow the old man at the start is coming back for the next movie. So what are the chances of Kylo failing to kill name characters with his fancy light saber being three out of three?

Han's case is the only one in which we have no corpse or near-corpse to bring back to life, though.

But if Luke can survive a fall of several hundred feet down a cooling shaft, surely Han can, too?

-

Also, having Han's death faked in an elaborate set-up would explain a lot of problems with that scene. Han knowingly walking out into the line of fire of a dozen Storm Troopers, on a quest to reclaim a son he knows is irrevocably lost. Ben actually surviving being hit in the stomach by an explosive bowcaster bolt. And him not being able to beat two light saber novices in a saber duel without damage... because he didn't really want to kill them at that point.

Let's say Han and Ben plan the whole thing, simply to get Ben into the Knights' inner circle... does that work? But then again, does it jive with Ben's simply offing (almost) all of Luke's padawans (except for Rey)? And how does it jive with him ordering the death of an entire village? So perhaps the fake death is a long-shot, but still, it has its allure.

-

Also, I am very disappointed that our local film festival has halted Star Wars screenings for the meantime. I would very much like to go back and watch that lightsaber fight again, just to further examine the differences in styles between Ren (lots of powerful, sweeping strikes), Finn (uses the saber more like a fighting baton, keeps it close in) and Rey (very obviously a style adapted from using a staff... relying on long reach and stabbing/poking motions). The fight wasn't as polished as the infamous Darth Maul - Obi Wan duel, but it was a great twist on light saber fighting... sadly overlooked by people complaining how easy it was for two fit, healthy people with combat training and experience to avoid being completely killed by a troubled, tempermental young man who'd just taken an explosive bolt to the stomach and who didn't really want to kill his second opponent.

 

[CodeRedR51]

Spoiler

But if Luke can survive a fall of several hundred feet down a cooling shaft, surely Han can, too?

Spoiler: Maybe not a spoiler?

Let's not forget that Darth Maul is still alive as well.

 

[niky]

Spoiler: Maybe not a spoiler?

Let's not forget that Darth Maul is still alive as well.

Spoiler

If you can actually call that living.

Now Vader surviving multiple amputations, yeah, that works. Maul surviving a split torso? Uh... no.

 

[CodeRedR51]

Spoiler

If you can actually call that living.

Now Vader surviving multiple amputations, yeah, that works. Maul surviving a split torso? Uh... no.

Spoiler

They brought him back in the Clone Wars animated series which is considered canon. Explanation HERE, 3rd paragraph down.

 

[JKgo]

Spoiler: Maybe not a spoiler?

Let's not forget that Darth Maul is still alive as well.

...WUT

{...runs off, checks out the link}

 

[VEXD]

I had an interesting conversation with someone today who's theory is that kylo ren is a double agent, planted in his position to gain an advantage for when the time comes to do the right thing.
I'm being vague so as not to spoil things, but it's an enticing angle, don't you think?
If you consider the dialogue spoken on the bridge during that poignant scene from this perspective, the theoretical possibility gains momentum.....

 

[CodeRedR51]

I had an interesting conversation with someone today who's theory is that kylo ren is a double agent, planted in his position to gain an advantage for when the time comes to do the right thing.
I'm being vague so as not to spoil things, but it's an enticing angle, don't you think?
If you consider the dialogue spoken on the bridge during that poignant scene from this perspective, the theoretical possibility gains momentum.....

I've heard that story too.

Just saw it for the 4th time but in IMAX 3D this go round. The 3D was ok, good in some parts and meh in others. Ready for this thing to hit bluray. Already seeing presale things for it in stores, and you can pre-order it on PSN too. Meanwhile it did another $70 million domestically on Monday. The theatre I just got out of was sold out at 3pm.

 

[Terronium-12]

Is anyone else slightly worried about Episode VIII and IX having different directors and writers? Sure Ep. VIII will have Abrams onboard but I really like a sense of uniformity in movies and that typically shines through a uniform staff.

 

[CodeRedR51]

The fact that JJ is producing VIII doesn't have me worried too much, but as far as IX goes, a bit too soon to think about that one too much for me. From what I have heard so far about Rogue One, I'm definitely looking forward to that next.

 

[FoolKiller]

Is anyone else slightly worried about Episode VIII and IX having different directors and writers? Sure Ep. VIII will have Abrams onboard but I really like a sense of uniformity in movies and that typically shines through a uniform staff.

The original trilogy had different directors and the screenplay credits went to different writers as well, even though Lucas was always present. If Abrams stays around and is there in some form then these will be nearly along the same path as the original trilogy.

In contrast, the prequels were all Lucas. Sometimes it pays to have another person to point out bad ideas so the first guy doesn't get stupid from his previous success.

 

[prisonermonkeys]

I really like a sense of uniformity in movies and that typically shines through a uniform staff.

Conversely, you can wind up with writers who get complacent in their roles. They see what works in one film, and just keep rolling it over. A prime example of this is the James Bond film: there have been six since the current writing team came on-board in 1999, and in that time, five of them - including four in a row - have dealt with Bond's trustworthiness.

• In The World Is Not Enough, Bond disobeys a direct order to continue his investigation, prompting M to take him off the case despite his finding crucial evidence.
• In Die Another Day, Bond’s loyalty is called into question when he is held prisoner in North Korea for a year.
• With the reboot in Casino Royale, Bond’s judgement is questioned because of errors he makes in an operation.
• In Quantum of Solace, everyone believes that Bond has been compromised by his feelings for Vesper Lynd and is acting out of revenge.
• In Spectre, Bond carries out an unauthorised mission and once again deliberately disobeys a direct order (though this time around, M has the sense to trust him).

In that time, Skyfall is the only film where Bond's trustworthiness is not an issue. It's little wonder that of the six films, it's the most popular among fans - even if the trustworthiness theme is naturally born out of the story in the other films (ie, Bond's state of mind following Vesper's death).

The point that I am trying to make here is that The Force Awakens owes a lot to A New Hope. Ignoring my sentiments about JJ Abrams for a moment, the film is trying to recapture the sensation of A New Hope for established fans, and recreate it for new fans. And that works in the film's favour to begin with, but if the planned trilogy relies too much on nostalgia, then eventually it's going to reach the point of diminishing returns - and it's a safe bet that it will do so sooner rather than later. Return of the Jedi was guilty of this to a point, given that it simply recycled the Death Star. If The Force Awakens is grounding itself in the universe George Lucas established in 1977, then Episode VIII needs to put some distance between itself and the original trilogy and be its own film. One of the best ways to do that is to rotate the crew, especially the writers and directors, because if you keep them static, there's a risk that they will only focus on what worked before.