T10 forcing PD's Hand?

[G.T.Ace]

Its not a feature, its a design.
Thats the difference.

It would be the same if Mercedes starts producing Sportscars that look exactly like a Porsche.

And im not even saying "T10 sucks, because they "stole" the UI design", i dont really care, but you also cant state the opposite (no, also not as an opinion). This is why i found your reply to Tenacious D so plain wrong. If you wrote "So what? Who cares?" it would have been something different.

Again, yes they copied the UI of the showroom, fact, is FM3 a bad game because of this? No, its still one extremely good racing game i would buy if it would come to the PS3 for sure. Did PD copy the damage model of Forza? No, come on please.

 

[Bogie 19th]

Its not a feature, its a design.
Thats the difference.

Whatever works for you man. If that is the way you want to go (which isn't the way I want to go), then we agree that GT has copied everybody, including a UI that has menus and a black background, with cars in the middle, and track layouts.

That is getting really pedantic.

 

[TwentyValve]

If you read above in previous posts, people were dismissing insideSimRacing as a legit review source, and they were saying that insideSimRacing said the game was for casuals, not the hardcore. They were saying the review score was good for the fluff and wasn't really considering actual racing. And yet, the opposite is true. That is why he quoted it.

Sorry, i did not. I am at work and have limited time to read through all posts. Especially a fast moving one.
I just don't get why everone that is "defending Forza" only uses that one review, when apparently there are so many others.

 

[Bogie 19th]

Sorry, i did not. I am at work and have limited time to read through all posts. Especially a fast moving one.
I just don't get why everone that is "defending Forza" only uses that one review, when apparently there are so many others.

Because many sim racers rely on insideSimRacing for many of their hardcore reviews and details. It's not TeamXbox.com, SDF.com, IGN PS.com, etc. They are looking for neutral sites that are more specific to sim racing.

I don't think people are "defending" Forza. They are enjoying BOTH racers and can see the positives and negatives in both.

 

[chepe371]

).

One thing I would caution some of you on, is that we don't yet know what GT5 will look like from an user interface point of view. I would be wary of getting to high and mighty about a copied showroom, as it could lead to being rather embarrassed when GT5 releases.


Regards

Scaff

Actually yeah you're right, i meant to say GT5P, GT5 could look like anything but Forza mirrored GT5P showroom.

 

[seanchump]

GT fans should welcome Forza as indirect competition. Yes, it is on another console but I still consider it competition because both games are "system sellers."

Without competition the consumer loses in terms of game depth, features, prices etc. Just look at the Madden NFL series. The best years for NFL games where when 2K sports and EA shared the NFL license. Once EA became the exclusive license holder the entire genre became stagnant. Consumers suffered. Madden 10 sucks IMO.

At least EA has Konami to keep the Soccar/Futbol genre in check.

One could argue that GT doesn't need Forza, that PD does justice to the genre without competition. I agree with that, but you have to look at the NEW features that will be included with GT5.

Both game have damage. Coincidence? I think not.
Am I complaining? nope!
Will I but an xbox for Forza? lol hell no.
Am I going to play GT5 for 48hrs straight when it comes out? ... You already know!

 

[TwentyValve]

Because many sim racers rely on insideSimRacing for many of their hardcore reviews and details. It's not TeamXbox.com, SDF.com, IGN PS.com, etc. They are looking for neutral sites that are more specific to sim racing.

I don't think people are "defending" Forza. They are enjoying BOTH racers and can see the positives and negatives in both.

I understand that IsideSimRacing would be a good source because its only linked to racing and not a specific manufacturer, but why not another one to help back up their claim? Truly I am not trying to argue, I just find it a bit curious.

I tried to think of a better way to explain what I ment with "defending Forza" but couldn't. I'm still not sure. Well the more i think about it, defending, would be a good word. There are others that take this review like the work of God and imply that it is absolute. But anyway it still looks like a great game and in 2 weeks i will be able gather my own review.

 

[Simple SIM]

Why does everyone keep quoting that one review? From what others have said FM3 was getting great reviews from all over, so why just this one review?

Because it's the most credible review out there.

With other sites they may be biased one way or the other, or the reviewer might not know the first thing about Racing SIMs ( which clearly was the case for some of them ).

But with Inside SIM Racing, they are extremely knowledgeable, unbiased and so "PC SIM Elitist" that it's downright shocking they said the things they did about a "console SIM."

If some random guy says he thinks Forza's physics are realistic that's a nice opinion, but if ISR says so it's a fact. They have been playing and reviewing every SIM out there for many years. They are in a position to know for a fact. There are few people out there as qualified to review SIMs as ISR is.

 

[TwentyValve]

Because it's the most credible review out there.

With other sites they may be biased one way or the other, or the reviewer might not know the first thing about Racing SIMs ( which clearly was the case for some of them ).

But with Inside SIM Racing, they are extremely knowledgeable, unbiased and so "PC SIM Elitist" that it's downright shocking they said the things they did about a "console SIM."

If some random guy says he thinks Forza's physics are realistic that's a nice opinion, but if ISR says so it's a fact. They have been playing and reviewing every SIM out there for many years. They are in a position to know for a fact. There are few people out there as qualified to review SIMs as ISR is.

So, let me ask you this, with all the reviewing of video games, when was the last time they were at a real track with a real car? I know I am no pro driver, but I do have some track time and have driven many diferent cars over the years.
So after playing the FM3 demo I felt they went in the other direction with physics from FM2. Yes it feels far better from FM2 but "Benchmark" is a bit of a streach.

 

[Devedander]

What does this prove? This is just their opinion of the game as was mine. One big thing to keep in mind is they have the full game, i only have the demo. After getting the full game my opinion may change. Why does everyone keep quoting that one review? From what others have said FM3 was getting great reviews from all over, so why just this one review?

Generally I think reviewers are credited with weighted opinions because they spend a lot of time and energy gathering information to base their opinions on. They are considered to be somewhat specialists in the field and thus their opinions are generally given more value than your average persons opinions.

Not to say that YOU might not be as well or better versed than they, but generally speaking I think a review proves that someone who is assumed to take the process seriously and is knowledgeable on the subject has given a thought out opinion on the subject.

 

[Dravonic]

And yes, that is my opinion.

A bad time to quote you since this time I actually agree with what you said in this quote, but I find it funny how you say the most moronic and absurd things and try to get away with it with "it's my opinion".

The Earth is flat. Don't argue with me! It's my opinion!

Your opinion is noted.

I also find it funny how you try to discredit what other people say by saying it is only "their opinion". Sometimes people are right and you're wrong. Acknowledge it.

 

[Bogie 19th]

Sometimes people are right and you're wrong. Acknowledge it.

True. And when that happens, I will. Thank you father Dravonic.

 

[FyreandIce]

So, let me ask you this, with all the reviewing of video games, when was the last time they were at a real track with a real car? I know I am no pro driver, but I do have some track time and have driven many diferent cars over the years.
So after playing the FM3 demo I felt they went in the other direction with physics from FM2. Yes it feels far better from FM2 but "Benchmark" is a bit of a streach.

According to the ISR guys themselves they do track days and work their own cars and, if I remember correctly, are actually working on a racing camaro or corvette or something.

One problem I see is alot of the GT fanboys (not point at anyone in particular as I havn't read the whole thread) don't like ISR becuase when they did the FM2 vs GT5 face off FM2 won with a margin.

 

[The Dragon Rebo]

Its hard to trust a reviewer who compares a full blown game at 60 dollars with a 40 dollar prologue game. When they compared gt5 p to forza 2 i instantly knew their inherent biases. then they go on to say that gt5 was delayed because of forza 3! as if gt 5 will somehow hamper gt's sales. gt 5 is a system seller and a pioneering game when it comes to simulation since the playstation 1. People will buy any gt game. you only have to look at prologue sales. but that's not the issue. PD never gave a release date in the first place. and yet ISR says gt5 was delayed.

that's shows dishonesty and frankly it's hard to trust them. i am calling it right now. inside sim racing review of Gt5 will be 7/10. Even if the full list of gt5 blows forza out of the water.

 

[Dravonic]

True. And when that happens, I will. Thank you father Dravonic.

Why do I have a hard time believing you? Oh right, because it just happened. G.T.Ace was right, your analogy was dumb, he told you why but instead of acknowledging it you pulled your "it's just your opinion" catch phrase. You can see it as parenting, but I'm just trying to let you know most people can see right through your BS.

According to the ISR guys themselves they do track days and work their own cars and, if I remember correctly, are actually working on a racing camaro or corvette or something.

One problem I see is alot of the GT fanboys (not point at anyone in particular as I havn't read the whole thread) don't like ISR becuase when they did the FM2 vs GT5 face off FM2 won with a margin.

I don't really think that's the problem. I saw the review and anyone with common sense could tell that it only happened because they were comparing a full game with a demo. They even implied that in the review.

With the videos I saw, the only reason I don't take those guys seriously is because they are apparently just trying to get more audience by praising Forza.

 

[McLaren]

Dont get me wrong, but this analogy is dumb.
Copying a design of something like a UI is something completely different then implementing a feature that others games since the 90s (well more or less) have and people want since 10 years.

I can't believe this quote went as far as it did. All Bogie was doing was trying to point out how stupid the "They copied them" thing is. Wasn't a perfect analogy, but that's his point.

Yes, FM3's showroom is like GT's. But, that's a good thing. GT's vision of that menu is a perfect concept, just FM's livery editor is a perfect concept for changing up car exteriors. If GT had that (as Ferrari Challenge did), that'd be great as well.

 

[Bogie 19th]

Why do I have a hard time believing you? Oh right, because it just happened. G.T.Ace was right, your analogy was dumb, he told you why but instead of acknowledging it you pulled your "it's just your opinion" catch phrase. You can see it as parenting, but I'm just trying to let you know most people can see right through your BS.

Sorry you didn't like my opinion but you liked his. Is there anything else you wanted to cover? If not, let's try to stay on topic.

So based on where we are at, Forza copies GT and GT copies nobody....in DESIGN or FEATURES, and that is a fact. I am glad we got that cleared up.

If you want to be taken serious Dravonic, you need to put a little more thought into your rebuttals.

 

[Dravonic]

Sorry you didn't like my opinion but you liked his. Is there anything else you wanted to cover? If not, let's try to stay on topic.

So based on where we are at, Forza copies GT and GT copies nobody....in DESIGN or FEATURES, and that is a fact. I am glad we got that cleared up.

If you want to be taken serious Dravonic, you need to put a little more thought into your rebuttals.

Dude, you're priceless. I told you I agree with you on that.

But sure, let's stay on topic, the last thing I want is to get this thread locked.

I believe PD is influenced by any racing game out there. You can see they do their research from the pictures many websites took when they visited PD. If Forza has more influence than other racing games or not, I can't tell.

 

[Bogie 19th]

Priceless indeed.

I don't think we will ever know exactly which game influenced another unless the devs come right out and say it...or it's a blatant rip off.

In the end its a good thing. Competition breeds innovation, lower prices, better products and better games.

 

[TorqueHappenS08]

Priceless indeed.

I don't think we will ever know exactly which game influenced another unless the devs come right out and say it...or it's a blatant rip off.

In the end its a good thing. Competition breeds innovation, lower prices, better products and better games.

Well, Dan did say GT "inspired" him to by a 3000gt, And while i'm at it, didn't he say GT inspired him to make Forza?

 

[Bogie 19th]

Well, Dan did say GT "inspired" him to by a 3000gt, And while i'm at it, didn't he say GT inspired him to make Forza?

I wouldn't be surprised. I know I would be inspired in the same way. GT is an inspirational game with endless popularity.

 

[Devedander]

Well, Dan did say GT "inspired" him to by a 3000gt, And while i'm at it, didn't he say GT inspired him to make Forza?

I think back in the F1 days an interview with T10 revealed that most if not all the staff were racing fans, most if not all played GT and most if not all were inspired by GT.

But inspired could quite well mean they loved GT but were tired of the shortcomings (damage, physics engine they didn't like, lack of online etc) and so went to take a game to heights GT hadn't before.

If I am a football coach and I am inspired by another team with a strong running game, I may model my team to have a strong running game as well but they would probably be shaped by my coaching to be a seperate entity.

I see a lot of that with Forza vs GT... the two tackle the same type of thing from some fairly different angles. It feel PD and KY have focused very much on pretty and challenging while T10 have focused on in depth and numbe crunchingly accurate.

 

[Lucas]

To be honest, if I'm inspired by something, I will try to best it. Especially if it's a game. Why would I want to design my own game if it won't be as good as the concept that inspired me to design it in the first place? I would be wasting my time.

 

[Devedander]

To be honest, if I'm inspired by something, I will try to best it. Especially if it's a game. Why would I want to design my own game if it won't be as good as the concept that inspired me to design it in the first place? I would be wasting my time.

I would definitely do so also, but that's where best comes into being a subjective word... if I am not so impressed by pretty graphics but really want certain calculations done, perhaps I will sacrifice one for the other and still feel mine is the best.

For instance the football coach, maybe my inspiration had a great running game up the middle but I feel a strong running game up the sides is better, so I focus on that. We both have a great running game, but his is strong up the middle, mine is strong up the outside and I feel mine is better because of it.

 

[Lucas]

I would definitely do so also, but that's where best comes into being a subjective word... if I am not so impressed by pretty graphics but really want certain calculations done, perhaps I will sacrifice one for the other and still feel mine is the best.

I agree. 👍

In a racing simulator the less I could care about are graphics, to be honest. Sure, they are something nice to see, but physics should be the main deal in a simulator, as well as playability, since it's a game.

I'm not bothered by Forza's 8 cars. I've been playing in a field of 6 cars for two years already. All I expect from GT5 is an upgraded GT4 in every sense. Forza has apparently got it right, and it's funny to say that from a game that it's not GT. I've got to say the nailed that car list, it's everything I could ask for. 👍 The things that I wish Forza had would be NASCAR and the graphics of GT5. Though how good will NASCAR be in GT5 has yet to be seen... Physics are an important part in a simulator, but I never played GT4 because it was realistic, I played it because it was fun, in a way that no other game could be.

 

[paskowitz]

I guess this is where opinions vary. I personally find that the number of cars is a HUGE part of a sim. Considering real racing usually features starting grids of at least 18. On small tracks it does not really matter but on large tracks like The Ring or Le mans it makes a huge difference. Unless you are evenly matched with the Ai or human opponent there is a chance you may never see another car for many laps (and then its just hot lapping). Negotiating traffic is a HUGE part of racing. I ran a 2hr 40min race with 55 Ai cars at Le Mans in GTR2 and the experience was amazing (regardless of the date graphics and physics). I find FM's 8 cars to really put a damper on the whole experience.

 

[serversurfer]

I think it's a combination of the 4100 layers that you can add to each of the cars on the track …

If they don't flatten those layers pre-race, then T10 are a bunch of idiots.

… and the physics that each car is producing that makes it too much to handle for the console.

GT has physics too, but twice as many cars on track (not to mention much better graphics).

SIM SIM SIM SIM SIM SIM

psst "Sim" is not an acronym.

 

[GT]

I have only played the demo of forza 3 and wasn't impressed; nevertheless I am sure the reviewers are right in that Forza 3 is a great game.

However, for me personally, the GT franchise is something special. It is something that is difficult to grasp, an elusive layer that makes the GT games so special. As a car lover, GT provides me with that same passion I have for cars in general. The way the models show in the menu screen; the amount of insane detail in the exteriors and interiors, the look of the tracks, the little movies about the locations, the menu's themselves. It is something special to say the least. I feel that only PD can get this elusive aspect right. It is not something that can be copied; it has to be earned over the years.

And to me, that is what makes GT5 superior -- even though I haven't played it yet -- for I know the philosophy of PD and to me, that philosophy amounts to an experience that only PD can give me in which their love of cars and racing and beautiful landscapes feed into each other to create what is the GT brand.

Sorry, but before Turn 10 can get that right, they are not in the same league as far as I'm concerned. Furthermore, KY has said multiple times that he does not check out the competition; one could say this isn't wise but on the other hand, maybe, just maybe he knows why he shouldn't waste his time looking at them...and that is a comforting thought...

 

[pricey2003]

I ran a 2hr 40min race with 55 Ai cars at Le Mans in GTR2 and the experience was amazing (regardless of the date graphics and physics). I find FM's 8 cars to really put a damper on the whole experience.

I agree 100%.

I raced 50 other cars on GTR Evo around the GP 500 track. Around lap 20 there was traffic everywhere. Probably one of the best races i have ever had in any game.

24 on any game would be good, 16 is barely passable, 8 is unforgivable.

 

[G.T.Ace]

Yeah, or GTL with 36 cars on Virtua_LM.
16 is okay though, a lot of Touring Car series have between 16-20.