Taming the Beast - Ford GT Settings - No Driving Aids

Discussion in 'GT4 Tuning' started by panjandrum, Jun 2, 2005.

  1. KSaiyu

    KSaiyu (Banned)

    Messages:
    2,822
    eh? Didn't u just read the quote Scaff got from Evo (arguably the best car mag in the UK) and their road test:

    "On the couple of occasions that it does start to oversteer it's difficult to gather up smoothly because ofthe tyres' quick recovery of grip and the exaggerated weight transfer due to the rear body roll. But for all this it's an engaging and rewarding track car if you are precise and smooth"

    Seems to me it clarifys the handling traits of the GT4 model - oversteers only when pushed too hard and hard to recover (although I don't understand how a tyre regaining grip would be bad, but I'm not a test driver). I love the GT because of the fact that it's challenging, I wish more cars in the game were as much fun.
     
  2. Scaff

    Scaff Staff Emeritus

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    Location:
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    The tyre regaining grip too quickly can be an issue because if your not expecting it you can overcorrect and you get the 'snap' effect that has thrown so many people trying to drift in GT4,

    ....and I quite agree the GT is a blast to drive, its tricky, but then anyone who honestly does not think a 550bhp mid-engined car would be a tricky car to drive on the limit is just being unrealistic. I honestly think that the GT4 NSX and Elise are just as sensitive on the limit as the GT.

    Part of my job involved testing cars for training purposes and while I unfortunetly have not had the pleasure of the Ford GT I have driven a good number of mid-engined cars and all of them have been tricky on the limit and very sensitive to input. The Mk1 Clio V6 is an excellent example of this, lift off the throttle mid-bend and the car would quickly be facing the wrong way (and I found that out the hard way) and that with a lot less power that the Ford GT.

    Regards

    Scaff
     
  3. Zardoz

    Zardoz

    Messages:
    2,208
    Well, I feel like a fool. I'm guilty of multiple counts of jumping to conclusions, believing negative hype, and negligent laziness. I plead temporary insanity and throw myself on the mercy of the court.

    There's nothing wrong with the '05 Ford GT, at least as it exists in the NTSC version of the game. From what I've been reading about it in every GT4 forum I visit, I suspect the PAL version may be different somehow, but we Yanks get a car that is just fine, thank you.

    My problem was that I neglected to get the Increase Rigidity stiffening option for it, tried it in stock form for just a few laps, and instantly gave up in disgust as it understeered right off the road on every turn, just as I expected it to do from all the stuff I had been reading about it. I instantly wrote it off and never tried it again, as so many others appear to have done.

    I was so negative about it that I even ignored this thread until a couple of days ago. Big mistake. There's lots of good stuff here, especially rk's post:

    https://www.gtplanet.net/forum/showpost.php?p=1742405&postcount=20

    Reading that motivated me to try again, and I'm glad I did. No, the '05 Ford GT doesn't handle like an NSX Type R with full engine mods and lightening options, which actually has a better power-to-weight ratio than the Ford. The NSX is crazy good with stock racing suspension settings, as you would expect it to be. Even with stock settings, though, the Ford is fine, and with a great setup like rk's, its a dream. It handles Sport tires beautifully, and is actually pretty amazing with R3 Mediums.

    With just a little TCS (2 or 3), the car exhibits no handling vices whatsoever. You can be a ham-fisted, throttle-mashing, steering-jerking Neanderthal driver if you like, and the car will not betray you. I get no "snap oversteer" or heavy understeer at all. Mine is set up with 637 HP, the racing tranny (Autoset at 1 and final at 4.75), a GT Auto wing at full downforce, LSD at 10/27/13, and rk's suspension settings. Its an unfairly dominant monster in the Supercar Festival, reducing that supposedly tough series to a boring walkover.

    I hope I've learned my lesson. We'll see...
     
  4. KSaiyu

    KSaiyu (Banned)

    Messages:
    2,822
    I see, so that is what is happening physics wise when I snap my AW11 when I try to correct a slide. :dunce: I seem to remember that happening to the GT on occasions too, so that's another plus for PD.
     
  5. Scaff

    Scaff Staff Emeritus

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    Location:
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    No problem, and glad this thread has helped. Just to let you know I have the PAL version of GT4 and the Ford GT is fine in that as well. I just think it suffers from the same problem as the Yellowbird, its a powerful car that can be hard to control on the limit and some people blame the car rather than learning how to drive it.

    Glad you 'tamed' it, because I love the Ford GT.

    Regards

    Scaff.
     
  6. Scaff

    Scaff Staff Emeritus

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    Location:
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    Thats it, its far more difficult with some cars to catch a big slide in GT4, just as it should be.

    Overcorrection is an easy thing to do, try and slow down your actions, it should help, and you will feel on top of the world when you do catch a big slide in the GT.

    Regards

    Scaff
     
  7. DuckRacer

    DuckRacer Premium

    Messages:
    10,164
    Here's my settings.
    ______________________

    This set-up is for the Ford GT. It's fully modified with the best parts, including the rollcage, without nitrous, and uses Sports Medium tires. It also gave 1'08.685 on Midfield.

    Comments and Suggestions are welcome.

    Suspension
    -Spring Rate: 15.5 / 15.0
    -Ride Height: 100 / 115
    -Bound: 5 / 5
    -Rebound: 8 / 8
    -Camber: 2.0 / 1.5
    -Toe: 0 / 2
    -Stabilizers: 5 / 3

    LSD
    -Initial: 5
    -Acceleration: 15
    -Deceleration: 40

    Downforce
    Amount: 30 / 40

    Driving Aids
    -ASM Oversteer: 0
    -ASM Understeer: 0
    -TCS: 0

    Brake Controller
    -Brakes: 7 / 3

    Transmission
    Autoset 9.

    Ballast
    -Weight: 0
    -Location: 0

    © Duck
     
  8. fordgt150

    fordgt150

    Messages:
    137
    Hey it's really not that hard for my gt I just put RH on front and RM in back sure it makes it burn up the rear tires fast at least I can easily control it and beat JGTCs and DTMs eaisly I even won the All American Championship with this puppy I absoultly love this car and I belief it is much better than the white with the black stripe 04' LM RC
     
  9. panjandrum

    panjandrum

    Messages:
    1,026
    Yes, this helps tremendously. I have an entire array of tuning based on this idea, but I haven't had time to post them yet, maybe I'll get to them today. I've been trying to figure out the differences in handling between GT and Two-Player-Battle-Mode (TPBM), so I could post a TPBM tune as well. I'm hoping to test that final tune today and then post several sets of full-car tuning settings.

    But, if you want an easy way to control the car's rear-end issues, slap one-level softer tire on the rear than the front.
     
  10. Zardoz

    Zardoz

    Messages:
    2,208
    ...turn the TCS up to 3.

    I understand your no-driving-aids tuning objective, but I'm not sure you can make this car really driveable without TCS. I couldn't.
     
  11. panjandrum

    panjandrum

    Messages:
    1,026
    Well, I guess I’ll chime in on the whole “is the Ford GT messed up” question.

    I’m going to have to go with the opinion that there is indeed something very wrong with the Ford GT in this game. I’ve read two excellent full reviews of the GT in US magazines and neither of them had anything in them that would suggest the bizarre handling issues the game version of the car has. One of the magazines (Road and Track, I think) specifically said that the Ford GT has excellent at-the-limit handling characteristics, and that when the car finally broke loose it went into a nice easy-to-manage 4-wheel drift. Neither magazine indicated that the car would instantly flip around so the butt was pointed forward at the least provocation. This is one of the world’s best-handling supercars! What is going on here?

    Here is a quote from the Oct. 2004 Motor Trend:

    “Flying through the cones at 71.8 mpg, the GT notched a second place (ahead of the Enzo) in our slalom test, the chassis responding with the same inspiring, predictable feel we’ve experienced in sports cars like the Corvette Z06. You can slide the GT and rein it back in without ever feeling like it’s about to bite you.”


    Does that sound *anything* like the Ford GT as presented in GT4? I think not. So, some of us will just have to agree to disagree on this point.

    But, I’m more concerned with how the car handles in the game as compared to other cars. *NONE* of the other cars I’ve driven and/or tuned exhibit the crazy low-speed tendency of the GT to flip around under even mild acceleration, nor its awful tendency to spin at high-speeds. I drive many of the supercars fully tuned (the Pagini, Yellowbird, Saleen, and Vanquish being some of my favorites. And personally, I think the Lotus Elise belongs in the supercar category as well, just based on its handling). While most of these other vehicles do exhibit throttle-off oversteer (as they should), the difference is in the abruptness. The Ford changes orientation instantly, while all the other cars remain manageable.

    Even if you argue that the problem is that we are putting too much power in the Ford GT, why isn’t the same thing happening to these other cars? Why does the rear-end of the Ford come around so abruptly when even the Yellowbird’s doesn’t? Why does the rear-end of the Ford become almost completely unmanageable if you throttle-off during a high-speed turn if you put anything softer than Racing Hards on it? Why, when an AI car barely taps you does the Ford try like hell to spin as if the rear-end suddenly hit a patch of solid ice? None of these things happen to any of the other cars I’ve tuned, some of which, like the Pagini, have much more HP and Torque than the Ford does, and some of which, like the Yellowbird, should have a much more pronounced rear-weight bias. Yet, compared to the Ford GT all these other handle with ease when pushed to the limit.

    Something is definitely wrong here, even if you’re ignoring real-world comparisons.

    So, I’ll get off my high-horse now and say that I do still love the Ford GT in the game in spite of these problems. One of the nice things about this car is the sound (with Racing Exhaust). Another is the fact that, with these handling quirks, if you have a good lap you know you’ve driven damn well, because this car is completely unforgiving of even the mildest error. Also, it is, in a way, nice to have a car that is this raw and untamed, it kind of feels like you are attacking the course rather than getting to know it!

    And yes, if you are willing to use the driving nannies, this car instantly becomes more manageable, but that isn’t the point of this thread, which I started specifically to discuss trying to get this car stable with NO nannies, not even TCS! This is the way I drive all my vehicles.

    I’ve come up with a number of solutions that work for me. I’ll post them below in individual posts with titles to make them easier to find for those searching for similar solutions.

    I set out to solve two specific problems:

    1) I wanted to drive the car with all the power I possibly could, so I needed to reduce the tendency of the vehicle to spin uncontrollably if you so much as hit a gum-wrapper when powering out of a corner.

    2) I wanted to reduce the tendency of the vehicle to go from properly-positioned to sideways or backwards if you mistakenly need to throttle-off or hit the brakes a little during a medium-to-high-speed turn.

    I also wanted to make the car a usable 6-speed rather than functionally a 5-speed. Even fully tuned, the GT’s top speed was achieved in 5th. gear with the standard transmission. But, I wanted to leave the first two gears very tall because the car doesn’t need tight-gearing (and, in fact, as mentioned above by another poster, making the first couple of gears too low will only serve to increase the tendency of the car to spin under heavy acceleration).

    In the next couple of posts are the primary setups I’ve come up with. The can be summarized as the Super-Stable configuration, and the Nimble-But-Trickier configuration.

    Note that if you run the car in Two Player Battle Mode it handles a little differently. I’ll post notes on that as soon as I get time (couldn’t get to it today).
     
  12. panjandrum

    panjandrum

    Messages:
    1,026
    Ford GT ‘05
    MORE-STABLE CONFIGURATION
    ============================
    Using this setup you can be absolutely brutal with this car (and, if you’re using the DFP, it is brutal to you in return). I’ve used one-step softer tires on the rear than on the front to greatly increase stability. You can push this thing to the limit, slam the pedal down over bumps and through corners. But, because the front tires are harder than the rears, it tends to understeer if you don’t remember to *power through the turns*. If you try to drift the rear around the corners with this configuration you’ll just drive straight off the turn. But, if you slow down first, then power-through, it works perfectly and really rips through the corners. I use the configuration on all but the tightest tracks (I don’t use it in city courses).

    Note: I’ve used the non-striped prize car version for this tuning. If you are using the GT which you purchase you may need to adjust downforce variables.

    Exhaust: Racing
    Chip: Sports
    NA Tuning: Stage 1, 2 or 3, depending on tires (see below).
    Brakes: Normal (I find the normal brakes provide better stability and control with this car)
    Clutch: Triple-Plate
    Flywheel: Racing
    Driving Aids: 0/0/0

    Lightening: Fully lightened with Roll-Cage installed.

    Transmission: Full Customize:
    Set Auto to: 15
    Set Final to: 2.750

    Then set the remaining gears as follows:

    1st: 3.238
    2nd: 2.098
    3rd: 1.575
    4th: 1.260
    5th: 1.032
    6th: 0.831

    She’ll do 251 mph in 6th. without NOS.

    Suspension: Racing (Settings follow in standard Front / Rear notation format):
    Springs: 8.0 / 13.9
    Height: 80 / 85 (I do this mainly because I think the GT looks a little down in the rear when the rear is set to the same height as the front. This corrects that issue).
    Shocks (Bound): 3 / 8
    Shocks (Rebound): 5 / 10
    Camber: 2.0 / 2.5
    Toe: 0 / 0
    Stabilizers: 7 / 4

    LSD: Standard (note, this turns out to really be a Fully-Customizable LSD)
    Initial Torque: 5
    Accel: Default
    Decel: Default

    TIRES, DOWNFORCE (you’ll need a wing), and SUGGESTED NA TUNING
    Your downforce settings depend on your tire choice:

    Tires - Downforce (Front / Rear) - Suggested NA Tuning
    S2 / S3 - 25 / 35 - Stage 1 or Stage 2
    R1 / R2 - 15 / 35 (my most used config) - Stage 3
    R2 / R3 - 5 / 35 - Stage 3
    R3 / R5 - 0 / 35 - Stage 3 (uses rears that are 2-levels softer than the fronts. Can only be used in races with no tire-wear. Will throttle-off oversteer pretty badly at high-speeds, but manageable if you keep an eye on it)


    All in all, I have a blast with any of these mixed-tire configurations, but wish I could eliminate more of the understeer. I like a MR car to have a nice manageable throttle-off oversteer like the Elise and Zonda have, but I’ve never accomplished that in this car no matter what I try. If you configure it to have oversteer, it just tends to let the back-end fly away instantly. Rats.

    Well, that's the best I can do given an unwillingness to spend huge amounts of time on it. I'm sure it can be improved on further, but I think you'll find this setup is very stable.
     
  13. panjandrum

    panjandrum

    Messages:
    1,026
    Ford GT '05
    MORE NIMBLE CONFIGURATION
    ============================
    You’ll need more skill and less brute-force to use this setup, but it is still a very drivable car. I use this configuration on tighter tracks or anytime I need R1 tires on the rear due to tire-wear issues. The only real difference between this setup and the STABLE setup is the tire and downforce configurations. Using the same tires front and rear eliminates much of the understeer issues associated with my STABLE configuration, but it also means you need to use a lot more finesse on the throttle!

    Note: I’ve used the non-striped prize car version for this tuning. If you are using the GT which you purchase you may need to adjust downforce variables.

    Exhaust: Racing
    Chip: Sports
    NA Tuning: Stage 1, 2 or 3, depending on tires (see below).
    Brakes: Normal (I find the normal brakes provide better stability and control with this car)
    Clutch: Triple-Plate
    Flywheel: Racing

    Driving Aids: 0/0/0

    Lightening: Fully lightened with Roll-Cage installed.

    Transmission: Full Customize:
    Set Auto to: 15
    Set Final to: 2.750

    Then set the remaining gears as follows:

    1st: 3.238
    2nd: 2.098
    3rd: 1.575
    4th: 1.260
    5th: 1.032
    6th: 0.831

    She’ll do 251 mph in 6th. without NOS.

    Suspension: Racing (Setting follow in standard Front / Rear notation format):

    Springs: 8.0 / 13.9
    Height: 80 / 85 (I do this mainly because I think the GT looks a little down in the rear when the rear is set to the same height as the front. This corrects that issue).
    Shocks (Bound): 3 / 8
    Shocks (Rebound): 5 / 10
    Camber: 2.0 / 2.5
    Toe: 0 / 0
    Stabilizers: 7 / 4

    LSD: Standard (note, this turns out to really be a Fully-Customizable LSD)
    Initial Torque: 5
    Accel: Default
    Decel: Default

    TIRES, DOWNFORCE (you’ll need a wing), and SUGGESTED NA TUNING
    Your downforce settings depend on your tire choice:

    Tires - Downforce (Front / Rear) - Suggested NA Tuning
    S2 / S2 - 20 / 35 - Stage 1 or Stage 2
    S3 / S3 - 20 / 35 - Stage 1 or Stage 2
    R1 / R1 - 15 / 35 - Stage 2 or Stage 3
    R2 / R2 - 10 / 35 - Stage 3
    R3 / R3 - 5 / 35 - Stage 3 (Will throttle-off oversteer at high-speeds, but manageable if you keep an eye on it)


    As with the stock GT, you’ll want to watch your throttle input over rough terrain or when powering through turns. I don’t have too many stability issues with this configuration, but it took a lot of practice because this beast is just brutally unforgiving. You can stabilize it a bit more by reducing the front downforce, but at the expense of high-speed cornering ability. I think I’ve hit a fairly good compromise with the numbers above.

    You can also add weight to the front if you wish, but with practice you won’t need it.
     
  14. Zardoz

    Zardoz

    Messages:
    2,208
    I don't think there's anything wrong with it at all. I just finished running ten laps on Midfield with the car configured as follows:

    Brand-new car (0.0 miles)
    Increase Rigidity option applied
    607 HP
    S2/S2 tires
    Full Customize transmission, Autoset 1, final drive 4.75
    Racing suspension, stock settings
    Racing brakes, controller set at 5/3
    All available drivetrain upgrades
    All lightening upgrades
    Stock 10/40/20 LSD settings
    Stock downforce settings of 0/20
    ASM 0/0
    TCS 0

    The car exhibits no handling vices whatsoever, other than a steady, predictable, totally-manageable understeer, but how can you consider that to be a "vice"?

    There is no unpredictable bouncing or sudden oversteer, other than when you mash the throttle and attempt to suddenly put 607 HP to the asphalt through Sport Medium tires. I use the much-maligned Mad Catz wheel, and gentle use of the accel pedal keeps the wheelspin to a minimum.

    Heck, it even does fine over the grass and strips, and I even managed to powerslide right back onto the track when I got out onto the dirt once.

    I managed a cool and calm 1:12.531 with the above config, and I'm sure there's well over a second to be cut from that with a bit more practice.

    The Ford GT debate is puzzling, indeed. You're not alone, Pan, when you say the car is screwed up. Lots of people feel the same. None other than Fumes himself agrees with you. Read his notes:

    http://www.gtvault.com/gt4/setup-view/s_sid::3237/Ford-GT/

    He calls it a "crazy car", talks about bouncing and severe oversteer, and says he can't get it to handle properly. The first response describes driving it as a "drift event".

    And yet, others, like me, see none of that, and this very setup has so far received 20 thumbs-up votes from visitors on the GT Vault site. I have no idea what is going on here. How could so many people love a setup that is so maligned by its originator? Why all the differences of opinion?

    After Midfield I went back to the full-on config, with 637 HP, 30/50 downforce, 10/27/13 LSD settings, TCS at 3, and rk's suspension settings. I then went looking for trouble: I took the GT to the graveyard of unstable cars, Sarthe, and tried it for the first time, still with the S2/S2 tires.

    I wish some of the race cars in GT4 could be as stable and easy to drive on Sarthe as the Ford GT. The car feels glued down. I deliberately let it drift out onto the grass a little, went over the rumble strips after Mulsanne, weaved around on the straight at over 200, and mashed the brakes hard, all in an attempt to try to get it to do something wrong.

    I failed. I couldn't make it misbehave, even on bumpy old Sarthe I.

    Once again, I'm stumped by a GT4 anomaly. I'm clueless as to why there is such a wide difference of opinion on the '05 Ford GT. To me, its a great car.
     
  15. panjandrum

    panjandrum

    Messages:
    1,026
    One of the key problems with the GT is that it becomes increasingly twitchy as you make the tires softer. I too have little or no problem running the car on Sport tires (although I usually use Sport Soft). I just ran my most stock GT a couple times around through the Premium Sports Lounge series (to win a couple more GTs), without a single spinout at 723 horsepower. This is with the standard suspension that comes on the car, not even the racing suspension.

    But, try putting softer racing tires on it (the softer, the more pronounced the problem, don't ask me why), taking it out on high-speed ring, get to about 210 on the long straight, start into the turn, and just lift your foot off the gas. It does something no other car in the game does; flip around in about a tenth of a second. It's awful.

    Also, you might try a course with a lot more elevation changes to test how twitchy the car really is. I've been using Trial Mountain and El Capitan to test these cars. They are twitchier than anything else I've got over anything uneven. Sarthe, however, has never been a problem for me with the Ford GT, because the rough part is so straight.

    There might also be a difference because of the driving wheels. I started out with the Mad Katz myself, and there are some huge handling differences with certain cars. The Opel Speedster went from being a joy to drive with the Mad Catz to a tail-heavy spinning nightmare with the DFP. It took me a long time to tune the Opel back to where I wanted it to be. It was a *much* easier car to handle with the Mad Catz.

    BTW, I think that, for the money, the Mad Catz is a fine wheel. It gets mostly good reviews from what I've read (expect from one guy who obviously never read the manual and didn't bother to calibrate it). I mean, it is a $50, and pretty darn good when you take that into consideration....
     
  16. Zardoz

    Zardoz

    Messages:
    2,208
    Funny you should mention this, because exactly the same thing occurred to me. I've been wondering about the differences of opinion on this car, and looking back through the posts, it appears that those who like it are DS2 users, but DFP people have a lot of trouble with it.

    Could be that the Force Feedback on the DFP makes this particular car more of a handful. Who knows what the mechanics are, but I think you're onto something.

    I'll try the GT on some other tracks, particularly those you mentioned.
     
  17. panjandrum

    panjandrum

    Messages:
    1,026
    I happened into a Ford dealer over the weekend, and they had a Ford GT (blue with racing stripes) in the showroom. This is the first one I've seen in real life, and I have to say, wow, what a beautiful machine. It looks even better in real life than it does in the game.

    I've been playing with the LSD more and tweaked the settings above slightly to help eliminate understeer.
     
  18. Gabkicks

    Gabkicks

    Messages:
    5,605
    i'm.... confused. I am using no driving aids and N3 tires and i just got a 58 second lap time on tsukuba with the Ford GT.

    It is completely stock. I dont understand the debate? i get almost no wheelspin and the car has insane.... INSANE cornering speeds! i never would have dreamed the car could get under a minute on tsukuba. Rossriders mentioned the thread to me and so i took the Ford GT on tsukuba for the 1st time today... and i am amazed how well this car corners!!

    My God, are we driving different cars? I dont understand what the debate over this car is about. it is insanely easy to drive. Is it because i am using the Driving force pro? I'm sure this car can get in the high 56 second range if i spent more time getting used to the way it handles.
     
  19. Scaff

    Scaff Staff Emeritus

    Messages:
    24,544
    Location:
    United Kingdom
    Gabkicks

    I'm with you, I find the Ford GT to be a wonderful car, just messing around in a stock car with N2's and no aids I can post 1minute times at Tsukuba.

    I do think that using the DFP makes a big difference as the GT is producing almost all of its torque at very low engine speeds (500 ft/lbs @ 3,750rpm), unless you have very good throttle control then it would be easy to lose it on corner exit.

    The DS2 just allows wide open throttle to be applied too quickly and with little room for fine adjustability (compared to the DFP).

    I would not say personally that its an easy car to drive, but that is going to vary form person to person and also depend on how comfortable people are with high power MR cars.

    Regards

    Scaff

    Just to support our case, heres my stock Ford GT sideways at Tsukuba wet, no major drame, just a lot of fun.

    [​IMG]
     
  20. Zardoz

    Zardoz

    Messages:
    2,208
    Seems like we are, to read the various opinions posted. Even Fumes calls it a "crazy car" in his setup on GT Vault.

    I agree with you about the Ford GT, but a lot of people find it virtually undriveable. I don't get it.
     
  21. panjandrum

    panjandrum

    Messages:
    1,026
    Well, personally, I don't have any problems with any other high-powered MR car, even those with substantially more power than the GT. The Pagini and the Saleen come to mind right away. In fact, I prefer the MR cars over any other configuration.

    I don't know exactly why people have such wildly differing opinions of this car. I use the DFP, so my throttle control is fine...
     
  22. Gabkicks

    Gabkicks

    Messages:
    5,605
    the ford gt exposes that gt4 doesnt have a good sense of speed. Going 100mph is supposed to be a thrill. i dont feel anything at all if i'm going under 180mph in gt4, which is often since i spend most of my time tuning weaker cars.

    I think the ford gt accellerates much faster than most people realise unless they look at their speedometer. you think your going 70 and look at the speedometer and it says 120. 70mph in RBR feels like 150mph in GT4.
    ok... i'll shut up and stop before i go off on a tangent.
     
  23. Zardoz

    Zardoz

    Messages:
    2,208
    Hmmm. Interesting idea. You may be on to something.

    (BTW, I'm currently spending an obsessive amount of time precision-tuning a setup for it. I'll post it when I run out of things to do to it.)
     
  24. panjandrum

    panjandrum

    Messages:
    1,026
    I think you've definitely hit on part of the problem here. The Ford GT has so much torque that you don't have to run it up through the gears like most of the cars in the game. The first three gears get you well over 120 mph, but you don't feel like it.

    OK, I've once again revisited the Ford GT. I compared the handling with the Yellowbird (a notoriously difficult car to drive), the Saleen, and the Pagini Zonda. In all four I tuned the car all the way in terms of power but left their suspension default.

    One thing I found, is that I've now practiced with suspension-tuned Ford GTs that I was able to drive it with stock suspension with no trouble (until the rear tires turned yellow). But, it took a *lot* of practice, I've driven the Ford more than any car other than the Lotus Elise.


    Again, don't forget that I love the Ford GT, I'm just trying to get rid of a couple annoying characteristics.

    The Ford GT exhibits several "quirks" that these other MR / RR cars don't exhibit or exhibit to a far lesser extent.

    1) If you get a single rear tire on grass or sand in the GT, even if you aren't under heavy acceleration, you're far more likely to spin around that with the other cars. Even the Yellowbird doesn't spin as easily.

    2) Ditto if you just barely nick a wall or rail with either front corner of the nose of the car. Admittedly, you're not supposed to be doing that, but it happens and when it does the Ford overreacts considerably.

    3) The car's oversteer is more likely to be "snap oversteer" than any of the other cars I've listed. This is especially true at high-speeds when you lift your foot off the gas all the way. I expect MR and RR cars to begin a controlled oversteer at that point, but often the GT will often turn sideways almost instantly and initiate a extremely rapid sideways slide. It should begin to come around slowly, you get back on the throttle, and you're golden. You often can't do that with the GT. Also, sometimes, when you get back on the throttle the car just continues on around, probably because it rotating so much faster that the spin has more inertia and getting back on the gas can't bring it under control like it should. Note that this snap oversteer problem gets *worse* as you put softer tires on the car. What's up with that? Something is definitely messed up there.

    4) The car really does seem to require an extra long distance to slow down, but I think that's partly (but not totally) an issue of going much faster than you think you are.

    So, there are the "problems". Looking around I think you'll find many similar complaints from others.

    I have a theory that might explain some of the spinning issues. If I remember correctly from my old-school tuning days in RL, there are some problems with LSDs and unusual handling situations causing spins. I think this is what happens:

    a) Your tires have a certain amount of grip. This grip goes toward acceleration, deceleration, and lateral stability.

    b) You have posi-traction in your car, you're on the gas hard and suddenly a rear tire (we'll say the right one), hits oil, or gravel, or water, and begins to spin.

    c) You have lots of torque, so the tire starts to spin very quickly. With an open deferential you would be OK, because you still have the left rear tire providing plenty of lateral grip. But if you have posi, it will lock up and suddenly you're spinning both tires! Oops, you've lost lateral grip on both rears.

    Maybe this is happening with the Ford and causing it to spin easily. I don't usually use LSDs because I don't like the way the hamper handling. In the GT however, the "standard" deferential is actually a fully-customizable LSD. So, there isn't any way to see how the car would handle without posi-traction.

    I've actually worked up yet another set is suspension tuning for the GT and I'm really enjoying them. I'll post them here soon!
     
  25. Scaff

    Scaff Staff Emeritus

    Messages:
    24,544
    Location:
    United Kingdom
    You've hit the nail on the head with this one; its one of the main reasons I originally started the GT4 & Brakes thread. The Ford GT is capable of race car levels of performance and most importantly torque, it reaches high speeds very, very quickly and as a result a lot of people are missjudging braking points. The main reason I believe is quite simply because they are going much quicker that they think, its a particular problem on tracks with medium length straights, such as Tsukuba.

    Again I agree with all of these points, the Ford GT delivers its peak torque at 3,750rpm (500 ft/lbs stock), this combined with the close ratios on the standard gearbox (and even closer ratios on the FC Gearbox unless you change them) is just a problem, unless you are aware of it and drive around it.

    This much torque at these low revs (very few MR cars have a compariable level of torque at these kind of engine speeds) mean that if you are not smooth with throttle applications (either acceleration or deceleration) you risk upsetting the car in a major way. Remember this is in stock form as well, full modified its a frightening level of torque.

    Now before anyone starts with the 'real car' is not said to be like this, a couple of points. The first being that you can't compare a GT4 modified car with a real world 'stock' car. The second is that even using the DFP you have a much shorter travel on the throttle that in any real world car I have driven. As a result going to wide open throttle will happen much more quickly that in most cars. The final point is that GT4's version of the Ford GT is never going to be perfect and comparing a modified car with the real stock car is always going to be problematic.

    On the whole I personally think that PD have done a good job with the GT.

    Regards

    Scaff
     
  26. panjandrum

    panjandrum

    Messages:
    1,026
    Ah, well, that's correct of course, as far as it goes. Any car in the game which you've tuned to have gobs of additional power would be difficult to compare to the real-world model. BUT, that still doesn't address why the Ford GT is so much twitcher when modded than other cars, or why it has certain (lack of stability) traits regardless of whether it is modded or completely stock. I mean, if you put Racing Mediums, Softs, or Super-softs on the car it goes completely wonky. Just try it! I know you can only use those tires in a few circumstances (Special Conditions races, for example), but still it is exhibiting a behavior that it shouldn't. I'm thinking PD forgot to bug-check this model or something. Maybe they never thought that people would be turning off their driving aids...
     
  27. panjandrum

    panjandrum

    Messages:
    1,026
    These settings look crazy I know, but I actually like driving the car with these settings better than any of my other configurations (and much better than stock).

    One day I was watching my rear tires wear out on my second lap around the ring, even though I was on Racing Super Hards. The rears go out so fast on this car!

    Anyway, in a fit of insanity I decided to take the car to a nice smooth track and put harder tires on the rear than on the front. I had gobs of fun spinning in circles.

    Then I decided to try and make it work no matter how bizarre the settings had to be.

    In the end, I managed to get settings that not only work, they have quickly supplanted all my other Ford GT settings.

    The best part is that the tires wear almost completely evenly. So, you can now get three laps around Sarthe or 2 around The Ring on Racing tires. Before, if you put R1s on it, you would end up with the rears worn out in the middle of a lap, so you would have to pit every lap on the Ring unless you went to sports tires. Yuck.

    I LOVE the way the car handles now. You can power through turns, or you can let the rear slide-out, or you can even drift it if you want! What a blast. It oversteers nicely at lower speeds and stabilizes pretty well at higher speeds as the downforce comes more into play. You can initiate a turn and then just tap the brakes to start the rear sliding out if you so desire, or you can do the traditional Ford GT style of slowing down on the straight then powering through. You can even throttle-off oversteer to get around a turn in many cases. DO NOT, however, jump hard on the accelerator at any point during a tight turn.

    Oh, also, the car stops much, much better with this tire configuration. Coming down the straight at Sarthe at 240ish I used to have to hit the brakes as soon as I SAW the roundabout sign on the right as I neared the turn, and sometimes I would still blow it. Now, I can begin breaking as I pass the sign and still stop with complete stability and confidence.

    The key was to use utterly crazy LSD, Suspension, and Ride-Height settings to compensate for the harder tires on the rear. The LSD setting do not cause understeer in this case because the front tires are so much grippier than the rears.

    I'm posting the settings as images from my personal tuning database (getting tired of retyping settings to post them here).

    As a last note, you'll need to practice a while with these settings before you get used to them, but give them a chance. I suggest playing at Deep Forest or High Speed Ring at first. And, let me know what you think! (Even if you think I must be nuts to put harder tires on the rear of this already-tempremental beast...)
     

    Attached Files:

  28. panjandrum

    panjandrum

    Messages:
    1,026
    The more I drive with my most recent settings the more I like them. The car has gone from a disappointment to a joy to drive. Hope some of you like them also. Here are a couple more settings with softer springs for the roughest courses. Other than that these behave similarly to those above.

    These settings don't work well at all for high-speed courses, they are for rough city courses or the Ring (where the only high-speed sections are at least relatively straight). You'll see what I mean if you try this on a course like the high-speed ring! Oversteer city! Use the stiffer settings for those courses...
     

    Attached Files:

  29. Zardoz

    Zardoz

    Messages:
    2,208
    You are very adamant about never, ever using "nannies". Fine, but it sure seems like LSD settings of 60/60/60 are accomplishing pretty much the same thing. I've never heard of anybody doing that, but I can see how it might be a usable substitute for a TCS setting of 2 or 3.

    I guess I don't understand how 60/60/60 LSD settings are not a "nanny"...
     
  30. panjandrum

    panjandrum

    Messages:
    1,026
    I'm using the LSD to stabilize the car because I'm now using harder tires on the rear than on the front, definitely a big "no-no", but it does work in this case. Remember, I just tried all this as a total lark, I had no idea I would actually come up with a configuration I could use and enjoy. The "nannies" make the cars feel sluggish to me, but the LSD doesn't in this case (although I don't like the LSD in general all that much as it tends to increase understeer when you power through turns). I'm not opposed to nannies on principle, I just don't like the way they make the cars feel. I like being able to slide the rear out, or scrub the fronts, or make lightning-fast corrections and learning how to control the cars instead of having the computer do part of it for me.

    I also love taking a car like the Ford GT, getting on the gas up a hill and watch twin trails of smoke burn off the rears as soon as the car starts to lighten on the crest of the hill (I enjoy watching the replays).

    If you want to use TCS that's fine, on this car it helps a LOT! I am often very tempted to turn it on in this car.

    So, I'm opposed to nannies from a personal-fun point of view, not because I think there is actually anything "wrong" in using them if you prefer. It is just a personal taste issue for me. In this case, using high LSD settings doesn't diminish my enjoyment of the car.