Taxes

[MatskiMonk]

Overall the UK tax rates aren't so bad, the problem is that we overly penalise the highest earners. That might seem fair but the net effect is that those earners can afford to move somewhere else and so do. That means there are far fewer high-earning taxpayers in the UK than there should be. They go to the countries that give them a break, and that's exactly what we should be doing.

I'm nowhere near THAT bracket so I'm staying put

EDIT: I pay 28% of my wage in IT/NI, that's nowhere near the figure in the previously-linked article! I'm not in the top tax bracket but nor am I in the lowest by some margine.

On a gross of roughly £35k and a tax code of 902, I pay 15% of it as income tax and 12% of it as NI. So I actually take home 73% (roughly £25,000) of my gross income, and the government gets about £10,000. I wouldn't mind this so much, but I know people my age and younger that have received that much in benefits each year and that grates on me - it's like they are taking money off me, and giving it directly to people too stupid to use contraception (multiple times) or are too lazy (or had no intention of...) to work hard enough to pay for their own choices in life.

 

[Carlos]

On a gross of roughly £35k and a tax code of 902, I pay 15% of it as income tax and 12% of it as NI. So I actually take home 73% (roughly £25,000) of my gross income, and the government gets about £10,000. I wouldn't mind this so much, but I know people my age and younger that have received that much in benefits each year and that grates on me - it's like they are taking money off me, and giving it directly to people too stupid to use contraception (multiple times) or are too lazy (or had no intention of...) to work hard enough to pay for their own choices in life.

Jesus Christ man my gov takes 42% of my salary per month, I need to move outta here!

73% That's like a third more, every month!

 

[MatskiMonk]

Jesus Christ man my gov takes 42% of my salary per month, I need to move outta here!

73% That's like a third more, every month!

Hmm, does seem a bit much, given you seem to pay similar taxes to us on other things.

 

[TenEightyOne]

Hmm, does seem a bit much, given you seem to pay similar taxes to us on other things.

Fuel prices often represent a large offset; countries that pay less "as you earn" tax seem to have much higher fuel duty... or so I seem to remember?

There is already a fuel price thread that somebody's just dug up from 2003 (very interesting figures!!), so to keep this on-topic I pay 28% tax and £1.35 for Unleaded 98 fuel. How does that compare with the Dutch fuel figure, @Carlos ?

 

[MatskiMonk]

Fuel prices often represent a large offset; countries that pay less "as you earn" tax seem to have much higher fuel duty... or so I seem to remember?

There is already a fuel price thread that somebody's just dug up from 2003 (very interesting figures!!), so to keep this on-topic I pay 28% tax and £1.35 for Unleaded 98 fuel. How does that compare with the Dutch fuel figure, @Carlos ?

Yeah, I know Fuel duty is/was one of the top earners for the goverment behind income tax... I googled the cost of fuel in the Netherlands and it seemed about the same as here in the UK (£1.45/litre).. so I guess the tax on it must be similarish?

The VAT rate is a little higher than the UK too I think..

Corporation tax is about the same as far as I can see.

Other cost of living expenses (Council Tax) looks like it might be more

 

[Carlos]

Fuel prices often represent a large offset; countries that pay less "as you earn" tax seem to have much higher fuel duty... or so I seem to remember?

There is already a fuel price thread that somebody's just dug up from 2003 (very interesting figures!!), so to keep this on-topic I pay 28% tax and £1.35 for Unleaded 98 fuel. How does that compare with the Dutch fuel figure, @Carlos ?

What is your currency? British Pounds? 1.35 would be around 1.63 Euros. In the city I pay around 1.70 Euros for a litre. But that is Unloaded 95, 98 is around 2 Euros. Diesel is around 1.30 Euros. LPG3 just went up by a mile (7 cents per January 1st).

I think taxes on anything other than food is way too high. It's 21%, 6% for food. So imagine, I give a little under 1000 Euros per month to my government and they still feel the need to raise tax on things. It just went up last year from 19 to 21%.

Also, when I have too many free hours from work (more than 160 hours), they pay me out with a whopping 56% tax.

 

[TenEightyOne]

Close here, 20% sales tax with 5% on fresh food (a bit more complicated than that, unsuprisingly ).

I was going to put my overall percentages but you could reverse-engineer my salary

 

[ROAD_DOGG33J]

Here's a tax guide from Kiplinger by state. They took a look a look at each state using an example scenario. Illinois is ranked as the worst with several neighbor states falling not too far behind.

https://www.kiplinger.com/tool/taxes/T055-S001-kiplinger-tax-map/index.php
https://www.kiplinger.com/slideshow...ax-friendly-states-in-the-u-s-2019/index.html

 

[TheGeologist]

I lose almost 20% of my paycheck to taxes here in Indiana. Its been frustrating as I could really use that money.

This is where I get angry at rich people and mega companies who purposefully go out of their way to avoid paying taxes. It's not fair.

 

[PocketZeven]

Interesting look at taxes:



hoe looks can be deceiving. Looking at the math it seems to be accurate.

 

[Danoff]

Interesting look at taxes:



hoe looks can be deceiving. Looking at the math it seems to be accurate.

The video assumes a couple of things. First, it assumes that payroll taxes are taxes, and they've been held out as exactly the opposite. Social security (which is the lion's share of the rate they talk about) is supposed to be forced savings for yourself. It's not supposed to be a tax. Of course it is, in principle, but admitting that is somewhat disastrous for the legitimacy of the program. The reason social security enjoys such a wide acceptance, is because people of both sides believe that it is self-contained. It's you saving for you. You even get statements about how much you've saved for your retirement through social security. Break this lie, and its popularity drops hard. It's not an easy sell to claim that the rich owe poor people a retirement, and that's the ultimate conclusion from the video.

Social security taxes are capped for a reason, and the reason is that social security is supposedly you saving your your retirement, and there's no reason to force a billionaire to save millions and millions for their retirement. They'll get by with the same minimums as everyone else.

Sales tax apportioned by income is a super weird concept. How much of your income do you pay in sales tax? Why are these being related? If I have no income for a year, and then big income for a year, those two years look wildly different in terms of the sales tax I pay. But they don't look crazy for all of the rest of those taxes, because the tax is on income not spending. Anyway we have no federal sales tax, so if you want to argue that sales taxes are not progressive enough, take it up with each individual state. Trying to "correct" for a tax inequity at the state level by imposing a federal tax on the richest 400 people in the country is kinda ridiculous.

You could make other points from the video, but the video's points are suspect.

 

[PocketZeven]

You could make other points from the video, but the video's points are suspect.

The discussion opened is that taxes are not as progressive as people think. The points are up for debate.

 

[Danoff]

The discussion opened is that taxes are not as progressive as people think. The points are up for debate.

"Taxes" are not just one thing in the US. When people generally talk about "taxes", they talk about federal income tax. And that is extremely "progressive". Like I said, if you want to lump state sales tax in, yes it's going to get less "progressive". If you lump social security (which isn't supposed to be a tax), then yes it gets less still.

 

[PocketZeven]

"Taxes" are not just one thing in the US. When people generally talk about "taxes", they talk about federal income tax. And that is extremely "progressive". Like I said, if you want to lump state sales tax in, yes it's going to get less "progressive". If you lump social security (which isn't supposed to be a tax), then yes it gets less still.

While progressive it still is quite low. I believe in the US the lowest bracket is 10% (0-9k)and the highest is 37% (more then 510k). In my country it starts at 36% (0-20k a year) with the highest bracket at 52% (more then 68K). Sales tax for nonessential goods is 21% and food, non-alcoholic beverages etc. at 9%

edit:
Why dont you count social security as a tax?

 

[Danoff]

While progressive it still is quite low. I believe in the US the lowest bracket is 10% (0-9k)and the highest is 37% (more then 510k). In my country it starts at 36% (0-20k a year) with the highest bracket at 52% (more then 68K). Sales tax for nonessential goods is 21% and food, non-alcoholic beverages etc. at 9%

We have state income tax as well in most states. Texas and Washington don't, but my state, Colorado, has a 4% income tax, and California goes up to 12%. So in california the top tax bracket pays 49% in income tax. In CO it's 41%.

Your taxes are high.

edit:
Why dont you count social security as a tax?

I think I explained that. It's supposed to be you saving for your retirement (by force). It's not supposed to be other people providing for your retirement (it is, but that's not what it's supposed to be).

It is a tax. I do count it as one, but it's not supposed to be one.

 

[PocketZeven]

We have state income tax as well in most states. Texas and Washington don't, but my state, Colorado, has a 4% income tax, and California goes up to 12%. So in california the top tax bracket pays 49% in income tax. In CO it's 41%.

Your taxes are high.



I think I explained that. It's supposed to be you saving for your retirement (by force). It's not supposed to be other people providing for your retirement (it is, but that's not what it's supposed to be).

It is a tax. I do count it as one, but it's not supposed to be one.

Do note that the highest bracket starts at 510k and in the Netherlands already at 68K. Thats a large difference indeed.

What is the US governments income, not including taxes?

 

[MaxAttack]

Be living in Netherlands, spot this thread.

Now, I know the Dutch HATE taxes.

I know there are Dutchies here on GTP.

I propose a fun game to myself - how many posts do I have to scroll up before I find a Dutchman criticising taxes?

11. 11 posts. Nice.

Disclaimer: I don't mean to disparage and categorise an entire nation of people here. Just acting on curiousity as nearly ever Dutchman I've met in Arnhem has a lot to say about taxation and they tend to tell me "we Dutch hate taxes more than anything". There are, of course, many far less sensible things to direct your hate towards.

 

[PocketZeven]

Be living in Netherlands, spot this thread.

Now, I know the Dutch HATE taxes.

I know there are Dutchies here on GTP.

I propose a fun game to myself - how many posts do I have to scroll up before I find a Dutchman criticising taxes?

11. 11 posts. Nice.

Disclaimer: I don't mean to disparage and categorise an entire nation of people here. Just acting on curiousity as nearly ever Dutchman I've met in Arnhem has a lot to say about taxation and they tend to tell me "we Dutch hate taxes more than anything". There are, of course, many far less sensible things to direct your hate towards.

Everybody hates taxes, I think that is universal and not dutch in particular. But americans even surpass the dutch.

 

[MaxAttack]

Everybody hates taxes, I think that is universal and not dutch in particular. But americans even surpass the dutch.

Of course, taxes are not particularly popular anyway. But the Dutch seem particularly miffed by taxation and I think Dutch government has a harder time imposing new/bigger taxes than other nations in the locale.

The US, of course, have a very strong anti tax sentiment in the whole story of their country, taxation with representation being one of the core beliefs behind the whole founding of the country, though from what I understand, as "unconstitutional" as the US income tax is, one seems to still get in a lot of trouble if they don't pay it.

Of course, many Dutch were among the original new world settlers. Perhaps the Americans got it from them

But to return to my first point and expand a little, one thing I've noticed is that Dutch people around my age and younger (let's say 18-25) definitely tend to have more understanding of their tax system and I've met plenty of young Dutchies who are already quite adept at paying as little tax as physically possible. That makes a stark contrast to the UK where most people my age don't even notice when they pay their income tax and national insurance.

 

[PocketZeven]

Of course, taxes are not particularly popular anyway. But the Dutch seem particularly miffed by taxation and I think Dutch government has a harder time imposing new/bigger taxes than other nations in the locale.

The taxes are alreay high. They could be lower, but hate taxes? In my environment, I dont think the dutch hate taxes at all. Were do you get that misconception? And I am an Small business owner employing 20+people.

 

[MaxAttack]

The taxes are alreay high. They could be lower, but hate taxes? In my environment, I dont think the dutch hate taxes at all. Were do you get that misconception? And I am an Small business owner employing 20+people.

Just anecdotally from my peers. I study at HAN UAS. The Dutch kids there seem to be from... More affluent backgrounds than average. I've frequently had them express their hate for taxes and their pride in their family's and their own ability to avoid paying them.

Like I said before, though, I don't mean to lump all the Dutch in one bucket, I was just testing an observation I've made in my limited time in Arnhem and I don't expect such a broad generalisation to be confirmed correct

 

[PocketZeven]

Just anecdotally from my peers. I study at HAN UAS. The Dutch kids there seem to be from... More affluent backgrounds than average. I've frequently had them express their hate for taxes and their pride in their family's and their own ability to avoid paying them.

Like I said before, though, I don't mean to lump all the Dutch in one bucket, I was just testing an observation I've made in my limited time in Arnhem and I don't expect such a broad generalisation to be confirmed correct

I also lived near Arnhem, but I agree it highly depends on what social environment people are.

 

[Liquid]

Capital gains tax and inheritance tax are two of the most abhorrent forms of taxation. And I am alone amongst 90-95% of my friends for thinking so.

 

[PocketZeven]

Capital gains tax and inheritance tax are two of the most abhorrent forms of taxation. And I am alone amongst 90-95% of my friends for thinking so.

I agree. But it also depends on the % though.

 

[Famine]

Capital gains tax and inheritance tax are two of the most abhorrent forms of taxation. And I am alone amongst 90-95% of my friends for thinking so.

Tax works when it's a punishment - or rather a deterrent. Tax on fuel and cars disincentivises car use (benefitting health), tax on cigarettes and alcohol disincentivises using these substances (benefitting health), and so on. VAT disincentivises buying things, which can help slow consumption or - when reduced - stimulate economy activity.


Income tax punishes working. Poll tax punishes being an adult. Capital gains tax punishes making money. Inheritance tax punishes dying, or being related to someone who dies while liking you.

 

[Danoff]

Tax works when it's a punishment - or rather a deterrent.

If the goal is to influence the behavior of the citizenry toward some state-preferred behavior.

 

[PocketZeven]

If the goal is to influence the behavior of the citizenry toward some state-preferred behavior.

State=the majority vote of the people

In my country we differentiate between "excise" or duty and Taxes. Excise/duty is used as a deterrent. Taxes have the goal to fund government expenditure.

 

[Danoff]

State=the majority vote of the people

In my country we differentiate between "excise" or duty and Taxes. Excise/duty is used as a deterrent. Taxes have the goal to fund government expenditure.

Some taxes are for revenue, but not all of them. Right now in the US Trump is enacting tariffs that have nothing to do with funding government expenditure, and everything to do with deterring legal behavior of the people. And it's not based on a majority vote of the people either.

 

[PocketZeven]

And it's not based on a majority vote of the people either.

The people who voted for Trump were a majority. (albeit electoral college)

 

[Danoff]

The people who voted for Trump were a majority. (albeit electoral college)

They were not a majority, and not even a plurality. As you said, it was an EC vote. Beyond that though, people who voted for trump did not necessarily support tariffs. Some of them did, to be sure. But some of them were voting "against" Hillary and making a confusing mess out of the speech of voting.