TCS and ABS

[uncle_hayley_j]

Basically, poking around threads here and there, I see people saying TCS is almost as bad as standing on a small fluffy creature, which believe me, is bad.

So, why is ABS not as bad? If people boohoo TCS, why not the ABS too?

 

[RacingManiac]

You don't get FFB brake pedal, and most wheel setup(and I am talking about wheel setup here) still uses the "wrong" method of metering brake force. On real car pedal you use pressure on the pedal to control force. On game pedal you use travel. Much harder to judge properly especially without feed back. On some PC game you can compensate for this by resetting the sensitivity of the pedal, but on PS3 you can't do it...

Granted it CAN be done(both having a pressure sensitive pedal, or using without ABS with regular game pedal), but not everyone does it.

For what its worth driving some cars in this game without ABS once you get your brake force and balance set right is a lot of fun...

 

[niky]

What's funny is that playing with the ABS and brake balance is much more beneficial than TCS... which is only really useful if you have a boatload of power and really bad tires.

When I do use TCS, I only use it for standing starts, depending on the car (my 600+ hp Mclaren still launches better with TCS off on Sports Hards... I just launch in 2nd). By the first corner, it's off.

 

[W3H5]

Most race series...Super GT, other touring cars and such cannot use these aides. Some people like not using them (myself included) to bring a little more realness. Others find them useful, it's all down to the individual which you prefer.

Off topic - Congrats to you niky for getting moderator status.👍 (Sorry I've only just noticed.)

 

[Ghost Rydor]

So far I have only raced with TCS in the default position of 5. I figure using a controller you probably need it. Using the x button to modulate acceleration gives you about 4 options. Full throttle, minimal throttle, no throttle or you can pulse it to try to maintain speed. Not having analog control, high power cars can be impossible to race competitively on technical tracks. Eg Try to keep pace with a GTR in a RWD Ruf at trial mountain!
I'm under the impression that yes you might have some power drain in corners or when it is expected to work but I think that it is worth it to prevent the 4wds from walking all over everything.
There obviously is an exploit as I frequently have people request I turn off TCS in games I host. If indeed driving without TCS was all that then why don't they just turn their own TCS off and take advantage of those like myself? Because they are trying to exploit the weakness in 2wd. TCS is completely unnecessary in a 4wd but allows 2wd to keep up with them across uneven terrain.
Not to say all 2wds need TCS some handle emacculate out of the box but I tend to be attracted to the difficult cars or ones that need tuning to make them handle right. (Currently tuning Ruf Super Bird!)

 

[niky]

TCS 5 is a huge handicap. Too restrictive, too much bog. TCS 1 is the only level that's truly helpful, and even that is too much for some cars. A good LSD tune can sometimes be more beneficial than TCS.

I've never felt threatened by people using TCS... and most of the fastest players don't use it. Personally... I don't care who uses TCS or ABS (SRF is a different matter), because if I can't beat a guy who's using those, then it's my fault for not being better... not their fault for using them!

Off topic - Congrats to you niky for getting moderator status.👍 (Sorry I've only just noticed.)

I get that a lot.

 

[DrkPhnyx]

TCS 5 is a huge handicap. Too restrictive, too much bog. TCS 1 is the only level that's truly helpful, and even that is too much for some cars. A good LSD tune can sometimes be more beneficial than TCS.

I've never felt threatened by people using TCS... and most of the fastest players don't use it. Personally... I don't care who uses TCS or ABS (SRF is a different matter), because if I can't beat a guy who's using those, then it's my fault for not being better... not their fault for using them!

Totally disagree. From playing around I can say without a doubt, that TCS 5 does NOT interfere in any appreciable way. If people are finding it does, it makes me wonder about their technique. Lower than that renders it increasingly less effective, which changes the feel and also slows many high end cars down.

I try to estimate values to reflect a car's sophistication level. So a 1990 car with TCS will have a lower setting than a 2007 car with TCS. And a car with "Competition mode" (Corvette), or "Sport mode" (Ferrari) I back it down a bit. So, with modern cars, I guesstimate it around 5. For sports/competition mode, I back it down to 2. For cars that don't have it, I turn it off completely (quite a few cars in my garage as a matter of fact).

ABS is similar. As referenced above, you don't have pedal force feedback, which is all the more reason to need ABS in the game. But either way, many cars have a switch for TCS to be off - not for ABS, you can't turn that off or dial it down. And again, newer systems are more advanced than earlier ones, so on a new car I guesstimate that at 10 as well, and back it down for less sophisticated cars, or off for cars that don't have it at all.

And it makes a HUGE difference. You not only get better braking, it's repeatable, and you don't have to worry about it, just press the pedal and slow down, and spend your focus on the corner and the race.


The other day, I was in an online room with a friend and we were racing Ferraris at Suzuka, then I broke out a Cobra. I forgot to check the settings and was amazed at the feel of the car. It still burned the tires up and kicked the back out, but it was very controllable and I set a good lap time. Then I checked - sure enough, stock settings, TCS 5, ABS 1. So even with TCS 5 it was still letting it break loose in a launch and slide in a turn, and when I turned it all off, I immediately found I couldn't go anywhere near the throttle, and my lap time dropped like 9 seconds. Hardly interferring, I'd say.

Also, with a car that has ASM, I enable that too - again, it's there on the car, it should be there in the game (in particular, thinking about the ZR1 and GTR <- the GTR is built around tech like that). And it makes a big difference (improving lap times with it on).

The more the car/vehicle can do, the more the pilot can keep his head out of the cockpit and off the controls and focus on racing/combat/etc.

 

[Hig-GT]

Mate you are 100% wrong ... fact. I drive only using ABS, no other aids and I do faster times like that than I do with any aids on.

Try doing a lap of the Indy 500 ... One with ASM on & one with-out ASM. I can promise you the lap without ASM will be faster.

From everything else you harped on about (especially regarding the Cobra) you need to learn some throttle control and not just mash the throttle down. I can promise you I could drive those cars just fine with no aids compared to you with them on.

You can't control the Cobra without TCS, so you switch it on. By doing that TCS is restricting the throttle from you, therefore slowing you down. We are not saying that it doesn't do anything, we are saying that it is restricting you from actually doing a fast time. Switch off TCS and learn to drive mate.

To add ... I think people do have to use ABS as it just isn't realistic in the game, my car doesn't have ABS and when I try to brake like I do in real life the wheels lock up, its just too much of a pain to judge. I've tried driving without ABS and I just couldn't get it to work, only way I succeded was to turn the bias down and to brake at half pressure which doubled my braking zones, might have a search for some advice on driving without it actually ... Either way I was faster with ABS than without.

TCS 5 is a huge handicap. Too restrictive, too much bog. TCS 1 is the only level that's truly helpful, and even that is too much for some cars. A good LSD tune can sometimes be more beneficial than TCS.

That is such a true statement, although I like to run with the LSD set to 5,5,5 but each to their own

 

[Parnelli Bone]

^^ Yup. The very purpose of ASM is to slow a car down. By having ASM on, the driver is losing natural maneuverability that he or she could use to pivot the car into more desireable cornering angle.

Also, if TCS works for you, great. I find that for the majority of cars below 600 hp (and some above 600 hp) it only hinders my lap times. AGain, its very purpose is to limit a car's wheelspin, to tame it, but in doing so the driver won't be able to use a lot of natural behaviors that are beneficial.

Like there are some rear-drive cars that I like "kicking" around out of tighter hairpins and chicanes. I force the throttle, the car's rear kicks into the angle I want, and off I go. Having TCS off also allows more helpful throttle-oversteer (steering from the rear). I'm not talking about breaking traction and going for a drift, I'm talking about delicately sending power to the rear, so that it "steers" the car into a tighter exit. It's very possible with LSD set up properly.

Can't argue about ABS. I drove the gullwing Benz in the AMG Driving school last week, for instance. Golded the first session okay without ABS, but the 2nd session was impossible! I couldn't get within 3 seconds of the gold time with ABS off.

But it makes me think that the Benz probably has its Brake Balance on 5/5, as most default brake settings are. If you turn Brake Balance down to 1/0 or 0/0, I've found ABS off becomes much more useful, although there's still a danger of brakes locking up at the limit.

 

[NFSCARBON1]

TC off can help with controlling the car in the corners (e.g. kicking the back out in RWD cars to prevent understeer.) ABS off means that the tyres can lock and doesn't really provide much of an advantage, except on tight tracks in FWD cars when you can use it to slide the rear of the car (like the handbrake but much more controllable)

 

[FC3S5]

DS3 users need TCS. How are you supposed to control zero to full throttle within a few millimeters being pressed by your thumb. Wheel users are at a huge advantage, all the careful inputs are being done by both arms and both feet with a much larger range of motion, instead of a few fingers moving a few millimeters. The learned driving style with the DS3 is going to be different than with a wheel. But yes, with a wheel I'd say TCS isn't needed, but I don't have much experience with one.

 

[niky]

Totally disagree. From playing around I can say without a doubt, that TCS 5 does NOT interfere in any appreciable way. If people are finding it does, it makes me wonder about their technique. Lower than that renders it increasingly less effective, which changes the feel and also slows many high end cars down.

Most cars in the game don't need that much TCS. There are exceptions, and yes, a Cobra on Sports tires is one of them... but for properly balanced cars, there's not much need for TCS to be that high. It's absolue murder on anything below 500 hp... and even some 600 hp cars bog appreciably with more than a smidge of TCS.

GT5's ASM helps if the car is very twitchy or poorly balanced, but on most common road cars and race cars, it's a handicap... which is why absolutely nobody minds if you have it on... but turn on the TCS and they'll scream bloody murder...

In real life, it's 50:50. Twitchier supercars and 911s run very well with ASM, but on most cars, it's a hindrance. Unfortunately, GT5's ASM tends towards the latter.

 

[Hig-GT]

DS3 users need TCS. How are you supposed to control zero to full throttle within a few millimeters being pressed by your thumb. Wheel users are at a huge advantage, all the careful inputs are being done by both arms and both feet with a much larger range of motion, instead of a few fingers moving a few millimeters. The learned driving style with the DS3 is going to be different than with a wheel. But yes, with a wheel I'd say TCS isn't needed, but I don't have much experience with one.

I'm a DS3 user and I have no problems running without TCS (or anything else except ABS for that matter) and I now run manual aswell. And I bet I could keep up with wheel users online as long as the cars are relatively matched.

I'm getting a wheel on Friday though and I expect I'll be driving just as fast with that after a few hours (if not pretty much straight away)

 

[Parnelli Bone]

DS3 users need TCS.

No they don't. I've got a DS3 and I rarely use TCS.

How are you supposed to control zero to full throttle within a few millimeters being pressed by your thumb.

Um...you practice? Play the game till your thumbs have callouses? It's called "finesse".

Wheel users are at a huge advantage, all the careful inputs are being done by both arms and both feet with a much larger range of motion, instead of a few fingers moving a few millimeters. The learned driving style with the DS3 is going to be different than with a wheel. But yes, with a wheel I'd say TCS isn't needed, but I don't have much experience with one.

I actually had a wheel a few years ago, and could barely control the car. I was so bad, I actually took the wheel back to GameStop for a refund. Granted, this was GT3, and the wheel was a cheapie Mad Katz, but I'm confident that if I were to get a wheel today, I'd still be faster with a dual-shock because that's what I'm used to.

In real life, it's 50:50. Twitchier supercars and 911s run very well with ASM, but on most cars, it's a hindrance. Unfortunately, GT5's ASM tends towards the latter.

Also, let's not forget that in real-life, ASM and TCS are usually configured differently for sports cars than they are for average passenger cars. In an SUV or wagon with TCS/ASM, these systems will kick in more forcefully if abberant forces are being detected because the ultimate goal is safety in such vehicles. Sports cars usually have this stuff configured to allow the driver a bit more leeway, only interfering if the car absolutley seems as if the driver is out of control.

I'm not saying all sports cars are like this, but a lot of them are because their customer base demands a sporting drive, rather than a dull, uninspired drive.

 

[SuperCobraJet]

Most cars in the game don't need that much TCS. There are exceptions, and yes, a Cobra on Sports tires is one of them... but for properly balanced cars, there's not much need for TCS to be that high.It's absolue murder on anything below 500 hp... and even some 600 hp cars bog appreciably with more than a smidge of TCS.

GT5's ASM helps if the car is very twitchy or poorly balanced, but on most common road cars and race cars, it's a handicap... which is why absolutely nobody minds if you have it on... but turn on the TCS and they'll scream bloody murder...

Two of your statements seem to be somewhat contradictory.
I guess your saying they will object to the use of TCS in cars over 600hp?

In real life, it's 50:50. Twitchier supercars and 911s run very well with ASM, but on most cars, it's a hindrance. Unfortunately, GT5's ASM tends towards the latter.

In experimenting so far, I find most all PD's assists tend toward the latter.
There are some exceptions, the FGT being one.

In TCS they don't use a modern (real) model. Rather its a delay on throttle model or bog as you call it.

If it was real, reguardless of the car, you would be hard pressed if not impossible to beat your times without it.

Thats why they are not allowed in most racing, and the B2 bomber is unflyable by human means alone. Same principle.

PD's model appears to be part of optimising the physics to favor wheel and pedal setups. These allow for more precise throttle and steering inputs having more travel to work with.
The Academy TT leaderboards demonstrate this.

At any rate, more use of the assists does follow the higher horsepower, rowdier behaving cars.

I'm a DS3 user and I have no problems running without TCS (or anything else except ABS for that matter) and I now run manual aswell. And I bet I could keep up with wheel users online as long as the cars are relatively matched.

Have you tried your hand in the Academy with a DS3?
If so, how did you fair?

 

[eight6er]

I don't know if it's been mentioned but the ABS in GT5 seems different than other GTs. In GT5 if you turn ABS off it's possible to do braking techniques that don't seem to work with it on, unlike other GT's where you can still do all the same braking techniques weather ABS is on or off.
Some cars with ABS on will not go sideways when braking no matter how much to the rear i set the brakes.
I find this a bit disappointing because before I used think having ABS was acceptable, because you're not really loosing any characteristics of the car, but now in GT5 it's giving an aid to the cars stability under braking which I do not want. I still use ABS but it's because I am unable to slow the car down anywhere near as fast as with ABS on, using a DS3. It's just sad, I don't get as much enjoyment driving the car with it on.

 

[Sohvakettu]

The ABS in GT5 effectively controls the brake balance on the fly wheel by wheel...

 

[Parnelli Bone]

I don't know if it's been mentioned but the ABS in GT5 seems different than other GTs. In GT5 if you turn ABS off it's possible to do braking techniques that don't seem to work with it on, unlike other GT's where you can still do all the same braking techniques weather ABS is on or off.

How is this possible if earlier Gran Turismos (except GT5P) did not allow us to turn ABS off?

Some cars with ABS on will not go sideways when braking no matter how much to the rear i set the brakes.
I find this a bit disappointing because before I used think having ABS was acceptable, because you're not really loosing any characteristics of the car, but now in GT5 it's giving an aid to the cars stability under braking which I do not want.

But that's part of the purpose of ABS...an aid towards stability, which keeps wheels from locking up. :shrugs: This keeps cars from skidding and possibly spinning out of control.

I still use ABS but it's because I am unable to slow the car down anywhere near as fast as with ABS on, using a DS3. It's just sad, I don't get as much enjoyment driving the car with it on.

Then turn if off! And make sure you dial your brake balance down to 0/0 or 1/0. This keeps those brakes from locking up as easily.

 

[SuperCobraJet]

Then turn if off! And make sure you dial your brake balance down to 0/0 or 1/0. This keeps those brakes from locking up as easily.

In his case I think it should be 0/1 instead. Or 0/10 maybe.

 

[eight6er]

How is this possible if earlier Gran Turismos (except GT5P) did not allow us to turn ABS off?



But that's part of the purpose of ABS...an aid towards stability, which keeps wheels from locking up. :shrugs: This keeps cars from skidding and possibly spinning out of control.



Then turn if off! And make sure you dial your brake balance down to 0/0 or 1/0. This keeps those brakes from locking up as easily.

Yes in GT5p you could turn it on or off and the car could still pivot under braking, and in other GT's you could still pivot under braking with ABS. My point is, there is extra help in GT5's ABS, that was not there before. If I turn it off I don't know if it's even possible to slow down any where near as short a time as with it on, something I didn't have to worry about before because the car still handled like it should with ABS on.

 

[JJ72]

ABS is similar. As referenced above, you don't have pedal force feedback, which is all the more reason to need ABS in the game. But either way, many cars have a switch for TCS to be off - not for ABS, you can't turn that off or dial it down. And again, newer systems are more advanced than earlier ones, so on a new car I guesstimate that at 10 as well, and back it down for less sophisticated cars, or off for cars that don't have it at all.

And it makes a HUGE difference. You not only get better braking, it's repeatable, and you don't have to worry about it, just press the pedal and slow down, and spend your focus on the corner and the race.


The other day, I was in an online room with a friend and we were racing Ferraris at Suzuka, then I broke out a Cobra. I forgot to check the settings and was amazed at the feel of the car. It still burned the tires up and kicked the back out, but it was very controllable and I set a good lap time. Then I checked - sure enough, stock settings, TCS 5, ABS 1. So even with TCS 5 it was still letting it break loose in a launch and slide in a turn, and when I turned it all off, I immediately found I couldn't go anywhere near the throttle, and my lap time dropped like 9 seconds. Hardly interferring, I'd say.

It is just that you are at a level of driving which still depend on aids.

I don't find ABS all that helpful, consistent braking can be achieve with a set of good pedals, while it is a safety net if you are not consistent, it hinders some initial rotation with trial braking, without ABS you can brake a bit deeper and have some more turn in oversteer, on some combo you can gain 2 to 3 tenths from it.

same goes to TCS, with TCS 5 you lose some ability to turn the car with the throttle, especially so with rear wheel drive cars, some cars like the M3 are only really quick if you can steer with the throttle, you can gain as much as half a second on a really hot lap.

So driving aids doesn't reduce lap time if you are a capable and consistent driver, if you simply cannot control the car without aids (like in your case where you lose 9 second a lap) then of course it can minimize your lost in time, however in ultimate pace, no aids is quicker than with aids, except for Spin recovery of course.

 

[Parnelli Bone]

Yes in GT5p you could turn it on or off and the car could still pivot under braking,

Which car? Are you comparing the exact same car from GT5P to GT5? Same, or at least similar tires? Certain cars in the GT series have always trail-braked more successfully than others. Some brake-in while turning, others will just understeer massively under braking.

and in other GT's you could still pivot under braking with ABS. My point is, there is extra help in GT5's ABS, that was not there before. If I turn it off I don't know if it's even possible to slow down any where near as short a time as with it on, something I didn't have to worry about before because the car still handled like it should with ABS on.

Personally, I've found plenty of cars that still trail-brake with ABS on, and forcefully so sometimes, although I never dial ABS higher than "1". Where have you got your ABS set usually?

 

[zedextreme8177]

I use ABS only on road going cars which have them IRL. I don't use it on classics and racing cars.

With TC: I only use it when it rains, even then I don't usually set it higher than 2.

 

[eight6er]

Which car? Are you comparing the exact same car from GT5P to GT5? Same, or at least similar tires? Certain cars in the GT series have always trail-braked more successfully than others. Some brake-in while turning, others will just understeer massively under braking.



Personally, I've found plenty of cars that still trail-brake with ABS on, and forcefully so sometimes, although I never dial ABS higher than "1". Where have you got your ABS set usually?

I always have it set to 1 as thats where I thought the ABS should have least interference. The RX7 spirit r is one example, but I have to say I never tried ABS off in GT5p because never felt the need to. There is some trail braking possible but just try it with out ABS and see the difference. I can do stuff like I can do in real life with it off but with it on I can feel it's just not as realistic it's like having ASM on or something.

edit: Are you using a wheel or DS3? Maybe with a wheel it might be easier with more precise control of the steering and I know the DS3 gets some help with the steering that might be causing these problems, but I doubt it's down to that I don't think the DS3 gets that much help. I haven't got room to try my wheel on GT5 but I did use it on GT5p so there's another thing that should be brought into consideration.

@ Supercobrajet I have actually tried 0/10 on a civic type r to try to get it to trail brake, but still just understeer. In real life I drove a SiR civic with ABS and standard brake balance and I could get that to trail brake.

 

[Parnelli Bone]

I always have it set to 1 as thats where I thought the ABS should have least interference. The RX7 spirit r is one example, but I have to say I never tried ABS off in GT5p because never felt the need to. There is some trail braking possible but just try it with out ABS and see the difference. I can do stuff like I can do in real life with it off but with it on I can feel it's just not as realistic it's like having ASM on or something.

Huh. That's not what I'm seeing at all! I mean...yes, trail-braking with ABS off is much more severe (to the point of losing control if wheels lock up) but I can also trail-brake with it on. Just not as forcefully.

I don't have a Spirit A yet, but I have compared a couple cars from GT4 to GT5 (Lancia Delta HF Integrale being one of them) and even with ABS on, the GT5 version trail-brakes more effectively. GT4 is notoriously heavy with the understeer. The car trail-brakes in this game maybe only half as much, and needs a lot more "preparing" before the corner to do it. The GT5 Lancia? I can just fling it into the turn as I'm braking with better success of trail-braking.

I drove both Lancias with their equivalent tires from one game to the next...N2 in GT4 = Comfort Medium in GT5 for instance. Then I drove both cars (switching from one console to the next, lol) with S2 in GT4, which = Sport Mediums in GT5.

edit: Are you using a wheel or DS3? Maybe with a wheel it might be easier with more precise control of the steering and I know the DS3 gets some help with the steering that might be causing these problems, but I doubt it's down to that I don't think the DS3 gets that much help. I haven't got room to try my wheel on GT5 but I did use it on GT5p so there's another thing that should be brought into consideration.

Nope, I've got a DS3. Don't have a wheel yet.

 

[eight6er]

Sorry, I should have mentioned I'm not comparing to GT4, supercobrajet would tell you that Let's just say I'm not a fan of GT4 and leave it at that

But you do feel the difference, as you said until the brakes lock up and you spin out, this is where I think the ABS should come in if it's set at 1 but it seems to do far more than that. If my memory serves me correctly GT1-3 you can trail brake a bit more effectively with abs on, I just thought GT5 would be like them.

 

[SuperCobraJet]

@ Supercobrajet I have actually tried 0/10 on a civic type r to try to get it to trail brake, but still just understeer. In real life I drove a SiR civic with ABS and standard brake balance and I could get that to trail brake.

I've actually never tried such a setting.
If you have, and it won't swing the rear, I think its safe to say its not possible to make it happen.
However you are right. It certainly should.
Most of the cars in the game without ABS on, will lock the brakes pretty easily.

You tried it this way too? 0/10 and ABS off.


EDIT: OK I see that just induces loss of control which is what I would suspect.

ABS on 1 is still too anti slip in GT5 as opposed to GT4. Does not graduate % as well apparently.
You are right too in that ABS F/R settings would help turn cars in GT4.

 

[eight6er]

I've actually never tried such a setting.
If you have, and it won't swing the rear, I think its safe to say its not possible to make it happen.
However you are right. It certainly should.
Most of the cars in the game without ABS on, will lock the brakes pretty easily.

You tried it this way too? 0/10 and ABS off.


EDIT: OK I see that just induces loss of control which is what I would suspect.

ABS on 1 is still too anti slip in GT5 as opposed to GT4. Does not graduate % as well apparently.

I only tried 0/10 with ABS on in the civic as I was trying to get a quick time for a competition. But with ABS off I set it at 3/2 and the car would handle better but I lost so much time because I had to brake so much earlier. Maybe with a lot of pratice you can brake just as quickly with ABS on or off, but I get the feeling it's not possible in GT5.

 

[Parnelli Bone]

Sorry, I should have mentioned I'm not comparing to GT4, supercobrajet would tell you that Let's just say I'm not a fan of GT4 and leave it at that

I was a huge fan of GT4 for all its cars (800+) but after GT5's physics, I'm finding it harder and harder to "go back" to 4, which I still haven't finished after all this time.

But you do feel the difference, as you said until the brakes lock up and you spin out, this is where I think the ABS should come in if it's set at 1 but it seems to do far more than that. If my memory serves me correctly GT1-3 you can trail brake a bit more effectively with abs on, I just thought GT5 would be like them.

Yes of course there is a diff with ABS on or off, and thank goodness for that. I love driving with ABS off, especially if the car (in real-life) did not have ABS installed.

I disagree with your 2nd statement. ABS set to "1" should still do the job that ABS always does: keeping brakes from locking up. If a car (in real-life) is locking wheels and it has an ABS system installed, that ABS system is not doing its job.

And again. We did not have a choice to turn ABS off in GT1-GT4. It's been said by PD that they coded a rudimentary ABS system into all cars in these games, which is why their brakes never locked up, but we did not have a choice of turning this rudimentary system off. Only in GT5P did we get this option, and only if we had a wheel, if I remember correctly.

I would agree that there was more trail-braking in GT1 thru 3 than there was in GT4, though.

 

[eight6er]

I'm not trying to say that you could turn ABS off in the other games just stating that it's on.
I should have wrote it clearer, I was saying that the car is trail braking more effectively with ABS off, until the wheels lock up, so why does the car not handle the same only instead of the car spinning around when the wheels lock, the ABS comes in. That's pretty much the way it used to be.