That's it I'm DONE with Daily Races and FIA Demolition Derbies

[Phoenixsui]

Tried to do a good clean Race today on Suzuka in Sport mode to push my rank to a higher B or Close to A. Started 8th after qualifying time didnt save ...
The Race was not bad but 3 guys couldnt brake and all of them overtook me by pushing me out and i ended up 15 after the last guy even turned me around because he didnt brake. I could hold it for long enough to be saved if only he left off throttle for a bit. This made me really angry. I was 4th for some time until the first beetle pushed me out. Once again this stupid car totally out of BoP and even fast in the Hands of total idiot players.
Beetles only overtake by diving in and pushing you out. Always! Never in the last 2 weeks a Beetle took me fair. Whats wrong with this idiots i really really am pissed now! I will never reach a higher Rank until i play the game more and hope for better fair races. Ahhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh!!!!

 

[izecold77]

I'm done with FIA crap too. Even SR A drivers act like monkeys there. FFS! What's wrong with them?

 

[gapper59]

With regards to matmaking. I would rather be matched more rigidly by SR, DR, and especially Q time at the expense of a full field.

A ten person closely matched race isn’t going to be less exciting than a 20 person race with a 10-15 sec difference in qualifying times. It will only make it tighter and more fun with an opportunity for more racers to get to the front.

It would also lessen the must pass as soon as possible in every turn mentality a lot of people have simply because they actually have a chance for a decent finish.

Well said!!!
I've seen 15 second time gaps also and found it to be kinda puzzling. I usually qualify somewhere between 3rd-8th but can never catch up to the cars
in front who are sometimes 3+ seconds a lap quicker, and don't know if I'll ever be able to make that up. It'd be nice to win every once and a while.

Got pole once with a Ferrari in GR.4, only to get past up by 3-FWD cars before the finish. I know it's off topic but it just adds to the frustration.
Hope that can fixed also.

My questions are, do they factor in Q times right now?
And does EXP level have anything to do with it?

Happy Holidays to All

 

[AdamA998]

Why are you blaming PD and not the players? Some players are frustrated they can't tune and won't allow clean passes, lol. On a serious note try enjoying the game, you are going to run into people like that no matter what. You will also run into clean drivers. I've accepted it.

 

[baldgye]

Here.

Totally unfair loss..

This nicely highlights everything that’s wrong with Sport mode.

Unfair ghosting allowing some, often the worst drivers, an advantage and allowing them to literally drive through people.

Then being able to race wilfully ignorant of their surroundings.
In that view you had no clue as to what was happening around your car or behind you, no radar and no mirrors.

Having been punted off you then rejoin spinning on the racing line in the middle of a chicane.



I like many in here gave up on the FIA events and I think maybe Sport mode in general.
I enjoy hard aggressive, but fair racing. Late lunges that you know the guy in front will see and react too by not driving into you is thrilling. Being able to spend a lap door to door without contact. These are rarely possible, even in SR-S.

I was in a Sport mode race and accidentally ran too deep and hit a guy in front, not off track but enough to knock him off line. I lost SR for that mistake, which is fine I wasn’t safe. How ever I then let him past on the following straight. Giving up any advantage I gained. The game knows I did this, it has all the data, why are acts like this not also factored into SR?
SR can and should be deeper than it is, at the moment you can very easily game SR and the result is that SR-S is only marginally cleaner than SR-A and I honestly found cleaner drivers in SR-B than A...

 

[Sven Jurgens]

This nicely highlights everything that’s wrong with Sport mode.

Unfair ghosting allowing some, often the worst drivers, an advantage and allowing them to literally drive through people.

Then being able to race wilfully ignorant of their surroundings.
In that view you had no clue as to what was happening around your car or behind you, no radar and no mirrors.

Having been punted off you then rejoin spinning on the racing line in the middle of a chicane.



I like many in here gave up on the FIA events and I think maybe Sport mode in general.
I enjoy hard aggressive, but fair racing. Late lunges that you know the guy in front will see and react too by not driving into you is thrilling. Being able to spend a lap door to door without contact. These are rarely possible, even in SR-S.

I was in a Sport mode race and accidentally ran too deep and hit a guy in front, not off track but enough to knock him off line. I lost SR for that mistake, which is fine I wasn’t safe. How ever I then let him past on the following straight. Giving up any advantage I gained. The game knows I did this, it has all the data, why are acts like this not also factored into SR?
SR can and should be deeper than it is, at the moment you can very easily game SR and the result is that SR-S is only marginally cleaner than SR-A and I honestly found cleaner drivers in SR-B than A...

This so much. When I make a mistake I slow down to let the person pass again and don't start chasing him right away again either. Sometimes that leads to funny situations where we are both waiting for the other to go ahead!

That the game doesn't take back the SR down for that is not the worst by far though. Driving in a group is playing with fire. You slow down not to run into the people in front of you, the person behind thinks that's their chance, or is not paying attention, runs into you, bumps your car into the person in front who goes off the track, SR down 10 sec penalty. (and he'll blame you for it, great) Or he comes from the side and the person you get knocked into bounces of a wall back into you, you into the someone on the left, it's pure comedy. However the aftermath is that the instigator has a single SR Down event, while causing a ripple effect where everyone not responsible for the accident gets punished far more heavily. And yes, the instigator usually gets ghosted then runs on ahead straight through all the mess he's caused!

I've had people intentionally ram me from the back at high speed, we both crash out of the track, and the game spawns him in front of me while giving me a time penalty?! Plus the SR downs for passing crashed ghosted cars next to the track on yellow flags is pure nonsense. There is no possible way I could stop the car to not pass the wreck on the side of the road.

I have given up on FIA races as well. Mount Panorama is nothing more than a pinball machine, Interlagos why use the road in the chicane with all that lovely green around, Ovals walls are for slowing your competition down, etc.

I guess you get better driving in SR.B as for one that's where new people start out and still have good intentions. Plus by the time the troublemakers hit B they'll need to clean up their act to get back to the easy targets in SR.A and SR.S...

Anyway seeing that some people drive in external view in sport mode explains a lot.

 

[Tassie_tiger]

This so much. When I make a mistake I slow down to let the person pass again and don't start chasing him right away again either. Sometimes that leads to funny situations where we are both waiting for the other to go ahead!

That the game doesn't take back the SR down for that is not the worst by far though. Driving in a group is playing with fire. You slow down not to run into the people in front of you, the person behind thinks that's their chance, or is not paying attention, runs into you, bumps your car into the person in front who goes off the track, SR down 10 sec penalty. (and he'll blame you for it, great) Or he comes from the side and the person you get knocked into bounces of a wall back into you, you into the someone on the left, it's pure comedy. However the aftermath is that the instigator has a single SR Down event, while causing a ripple effect where everyone not responsible for the accident gets punished far more heavily. And yes, the instigator usually gets ghosted then runs on ahead straight through all the mess he's caused!

I've had people intentionally ram me from the back at high speed, we both crash out of the track, and the game spawns him in front of me while giving me a time penalty?! Plus the SR downs for passing crashed ghosted cars next to the track on yellow flags is pure nonsense. There is no possible way I could stop the car to not pass the wreck on the side of the road.

I have given up on FIA races as well. Mount Panorama is nothing more than a pinball machine, Interlagos why use the road in the chicane with all that lovely green around, Ovals walls are for slowing your competition down, etc.

I guess you get better driving in SR.B as for one that's where new people start out and still have good intentions. Plus by the time the troublemakers hit B they'll need to clean up their act to get back to the easy targets in SR.A and SR.S...

Anyway seeing that some people drive in external view in sport mode explains a lot.

I use chase cam.
(much to the disgust of die-hard sim racers no doubt)

I've had almost 300 Sport mode races with over 100 wins.
Over 100 poles and fastest laps.
And 20 consecutive clean races logged on my achievements.

So your point is??

 

[baldgye]

I use chase cam.
(much to the disgust of die-hard sim racers no doubt)

I've had almost 300 Sport mode races with over 100 wins.
Over 100 poles and fastest laps.
And 20 consecutive clean races logged on my achievements.

So your point is??

Yeah my point wasn't to hate on any particular camera angle, more so that you have to be aware of your surroundings. Something this chap wasn't in any meaningful way.

 

[Tassie_tiger]

Yeah my point wasn't to hate on any particular camera angle, more so that you have to be aware of your surroundings. Something this chap wasn't in any meaningful way.

It's cool mate.

But l was responding to the other comment.
Let's leave the elitist rubbish at the door when we enter.
After all, this is a game to be enjoyed by everyone, regardless of their skill level or their choice of how they play it.

Making snide remarks suggesting someone is doing it wrong because they aren't doing it as some think they should be doing it shows nothing more than lack of tolerance for peoples choices.

 

[baldgye]

It's cool mate.

But l was responding to the other comment.
Let's leave the elitist rubbish at the door when we enter.
After all, this is a game to be enjoyed by everyone, regardless of their skill level or their choice of how they play it.

Making snide remarks suggesting someone is doing it wrong shows nothing more than lack of tolerance for peoples choices.

I know you weren't replying to me directly, but I guess I didn't want my post to see like I was attacking anyone for using a certain camera angle.

And agreed, I've been attacked for using bumper cam and cockpit cam and having the in game music on during races already.. oh the humanity!

 

[Mr616]

With regards to matmaking. I would rather be matched more rigidly by SR, DR, and especially Q time at the expense of a full field.

A ten person closely matched race isn’t going to be less exciting than a 20 person race with a 10-15 sec difference in qualifying times. It will only make it tighter and more fun with an opportunity for more racers to get to the front.

It would also lessen the must pass as soon as possible in every turn mentality a lot of people have simply because they actually have a chance for a decent finish.

I agree with this with 1 exception. Racing and following faster drivers can hugely benefit slower ones. I Know when I've been matched with DR:S & DR:A (I'm hovering between high DR:B low DR:A) that I can learn from lines and breaking points. I've become faster after racing them. You must be willing to learn though, and not try to outbreak somebody who is obviously running a faster pace.

Again this boils down to driver mentality. I had some monumental 10 lap battles on Saturday night in Gr3 & gr4. Tight clean racing to get the heart pumping. Sunday morning, I get on to crash fests at Suzuka. The problem with the game is some of the over enthusiastic player base.

 

[MikeTheHockeyFan]

I enjoy hard aggressive, but fair racing. Late lunges that you know the guy in front will see and react too by not driving into you is thrilling. Being able to spend a lap door to door without .

I agree with in this dude, but frankly if you are driving every race with this expectation, or the expectation that you can trust drivers you don’t know, you’re gonna have a bad time as they say.

You cannot, cannot depend on the car ahead using the ONE multifunction display feature (radar) that aids in situational awareness, and you cannot depend on the car ahead using the mirror.

I’d wager if you did some weekend warrior club racing on the track in real life, the “hard, aggressive but fair racing” mindset would net you exactly the result you have in GT Spirt: more incidents.

There is a place for hard racing in GTS, but it’s as part of a 10 lap plus race where you have had a lap or two to judge the drivers around you and you know you can push each other on overtakes or defending.

 

[baldgye]

I agree with in this dude, but frankly if you are driving every race with this expectation, or the expectation that you can trust drivers you don’t know, you’re gonna have a bad time as they say.

You cannot, cannot depend on the car ahead using the ONE multifunction display feature (radar) that aids in situational awareness, and you cannot depend on the car ahead using the mirror.

I’d wager if you did some weekend warrior club racing on the track in real life, the “hard, aggressive but fair racing” mindset would net you exactly the result you have in GT Spirt: more incidents.

There is a place for hard racing in GTS, but it’s as part of a 10 lap plus race where you have had a lap or two to judge the drivers around you and you know you can push each other on overtakes or defending.

A pretty fair assessment, though I don't really tend to drive like that in Sport mode. It was merely an example of how I want to go racing, but I'm more than aware you cannot force that upon people.

That said, the ability to trust other drivers to be sporting, should be the point of the SR system. If you cannot trust an SR driver to drive with any kind of awareness then who can you trust? Which is essentially the issue with the SR system.

That said, I did go karting (an endurance race) and was monumentally aggressive while keeping it fair and didn't have a single incident or cause any haha

I guess my point with that last one was that, you should be able to trust the people around you in the higher levels of SR and DR. And those handful of drivers who you can trust to be fair, should be match with similar drivers, rather than them being the exceptions to the rule...

 

[Scaff]

I agree with in this dude, but frankly if you are driving every race with this expectation, or the expectation that you can trust drivers you don’t know, you’re gonna have a bad time as they say.

You cannot, cannot depend on the car ahead using the ONE multifunction display feature (radar) that aids in situational awareness, and you cannot depend on the car ahead using the mirror.

I’d wager if you did some weekend warrior club racing on the track in real life, the “hard, aggressive but fair racing” mindset would net you exactly the result you have in GT Spirt: more incidents.

There is a place for hard racing in GTS, but it’s as part of a 10 lap plus race where you have had a lap or two to judge the drivers around you and you know you can push each other on overtakes or defending.

100% agree.

Its not the car in fronts job to give the car behind space, its the job of the car behind to not drive into the car in front.

Almost without exception the 'was it my fault' posts here are from people attempting 'hail Mary' late lunges from too far back and then wondering why the car they are trying to pass didn't just let them through.

 

[Sven Jurgens]

I use chase cam.
(much to the disgust of die-hard sim racers no doubt)

I've had almost 300 Sport mode races with over 100 wins.
Over 100 poles and fastest laps.
And 20 consecutive clean races logged on my achievements.

So your point is??

My point was that it explains behavior where people cut me off oblivious to the fact that they're not alone on the track. I don't know of course whether you still use the rear view mirror if that's available in chase mode. Without that, how can you tell whether you are cutting people off or not. In the video the only thing he had to go on was the time difference to the person behind him, zero awareness.

The lack of radar in chase mode should not be a problem as you can see what's beside you, no clue if there's a blind spot between the mirror and cars showing up next to you, I haven't played in that mode. I do use radar and all 3 mirrors while racing.

 

[Foxis]

I’d wager if you did some weekend warrior club racing on the track in real life, the “hard, aggressive but fair racing” mindset would net you exactly the result you have in GT Spirt: more incidents.

I agree with you that trusting others in a Sport race is going to end in tears.
But, I think you are way off with the above statement. There is a huge difference between GTS and RL track racing (be it actually racing or more casual club track days):
In RL, you can actually rely on other drivers being safe and sporting. In Europe you don't get on a track without having some form of license or mandatory introduction. And if you ignore the safety rules there will be real consequences. At best monetary, at worst real blood.

That is the major problem at the moment: Too many simply don't give a d*rn about the penalties. I just did a Sport race to see if it's gotten better or worse in the month I've stayed away, and my god what a mess it was. I kept well clear of it but ended way worse than I would have had I dared pass the morons ahead.
Much of the field was 3 cars wide through many corners of Interlagos, for the duration of the 10 laps. Granted, it was one race, but still. Horrible.

Not sure what can be done about it, but I think people should get short bans from Sport mode if getting too many strikes against them. Because from what I saw, the penalty system itself was working as the absolute majority of the field got demoted in SR rating. It's just that they did not care about it...

 

[Scaff]

I agree with you that trusting others in a Sport race is going to end in tears.
But, I think you are way off with the above statement. There is a huge difference between GTS and RL track racing (be it actually racing or more casual club track days):
In RL, you can actually rely on other drivers being safe and sporting. In Europe you don't get on a track without having some form of license or mandatory introduction. And if you ignore the safety rules there will be real consequences. At best monetary, at worst real blood.

That is the major problem at the moment: Too many simply don't give a d*rn about the penalties. I just did a Sport race to see if it's gotten better or worse in the month I've stayed away, and my god what a mess it was. I kept well clear of it but ended way worse than I would have had I dared pass the morons ahead.
Much of the field was 3 cars wide through many corners of Interlagos, for the duration of the 10 laps. Granted, it was one race, but still. Horrible.

Not sure what can be done about it, but I think people should get short bans from Sport mode if getting too many strikes against them. Because from what I saw, the penalty system itself was working as the absolute majority of the field got demoted in SR rating. It's just that they did not care about it...

Part of the issue is that the penalty system is far too light, and its also absurdly easy to build SR back up again of you do drop down a rank.

The systems that iRacing and PC2 use are both more robust, with Drive through penalties for repeat offences, slow-down timer periods that you don't get told the time for (so can't easily game it) and DQ's if you keep ignoring them or fail to take a Drive Through penalty. They also both make it slower to gain driving standards rankings that to lose them, again making the penalty for poor driving much more

 

[LBDN123]

I'm a firm believer that it takes two to tango in online racing.

I can't say my experience of online racing on GT Sport/iracing is anything other than a group of people mainly trying to perform to the best of their ability.

Sure, you get the odd clown but overall my experience has been very good. Certainly i can count the number of idiots on one hand.

I'm always left wondering in a number of these threads of people complaining whether the people doing the complaining are failing to consider that they themselves may well be doing something that attracts trouble. There has to be a reason why people keep on getting involved in incidents and you can't always blame other people.

 

[Foxis]

Part of the issue is that the penalty system is far too light, and its also absurdly easy to build SR back up again of you do drop down a rank.

The systems that iRacing and PC2 use are both more robust, with Drive through penalties for repeat offences, slow-down timer periods that you don't get told the time for (so can't easily game it) and DQ's if you keep ignoring them or fail to take a Drive Through penalty. They also both make it slower to gain driving standards rankings that to lose them, again making the penalty for poor driving much more

Fully agree.
So, given the above it would seem as a golden opportunity for GTS to beat the competition by improving the severity of the penalties. (I write "beat" as many seem to indicate that the matchmaking in GTS is better than in rival titles).
However, the fact that they opt for a very lenient penalty effects implies that they themselves do not trust the penalty system yet. Which makes it all quite pointless and watered down.... :/

I'm always left wondering in a number of these threads of people complaining whether the people doing the complaining are failing to consider that they themselves may well be doing something that attracts trouble. There has to be a reason why people keep on getting involved in incidents and you can't always blame other people.

Well, in my case I was not part of the tango.
I merely observed the carnage while manoeuvring around it. But it was carnage all the same. Impossible lines and blatant rams to get people to go off.
But again, it was one race (all I had time for this afternoon), so I may have just had incredibly bad luck.

 

[baldgye]

I'm a firm believer that it takes two to tango in online racing.

I can't say my experience of online racing on GT Sport/iracing is anything other than a group of people mainly trying to perform to the best of their ability.

Sure, you get the odd clown but overall my experience has been very good. Certainly i can count the number of idiots on one hand.

I'm always left wondering in a number of these threads of people complaining whether the people doing the complaining are failing to consider that they themselves may well be doing something that attracts trouble. There has to be a reason why people keep on getting involved in incidents and you can't always blame other people.

I don't really agree with this, but the principal is fair enough.

The problem is that there is almost no penalty in being clumsy or not using the radar and ramming into people either on purpose or accidentally.

 

[Tassie_tiger]

My point was that it explains behavior where people cut me off oblivious to the fact that they're not alone on the track. I don't know of course whether you still use the rear view mirror if that's available in chase mode. Without that, how can you tell whether you are cutting people off or not. In the video the only thing he had to go on was the time difference to the person behind him, zero awareness.

The lack of radar in chase mode should not be a problem as you can see what's beside you, no clue if there's a blind spot between the mirror and cars showing up next to you, I haven't played in that mode. I do use radar and all 3 mirrors while racing.

How can l tell?
Because l can see the car behind if it's close enough.
Any car in any other position is clear as day and l can position my car accordingly.

How else do you propose l got to 20 consecutive clean races?
Pure luck?

People driving in views where they don't know the external limits of their car are a bigger menace than someone driving chase cam.

 

[MikeTheHockeyFan]

There is a huge difference between GTS and RL track racing (be it actually racing or more casual club track days)
In RL, you can actually rely on other drivers being safe and sporting.

Kind of......

 

[Foxis]

Kind of......

A lot of incidents, but only a couple that were caused by a driver intentionally nudging or hitting another car. If GTS races were limited to incidents like in the video I would be absolutely fine with it. Things happen and people misjudge the capacity of the car and their skill level all the time.

The problem in GTS is that all too many cause accidents on purpose. That is extremely rare IRL. Which was my point.

 

[ItIsOkBro]

Here.

Totally unfair loss..

Braking diagonally like that is just asking to be rammed

 

[MikeTheHockeyFan]

The problem in GTS is that all too many cause accidents on purpose. That is extremely rare IRL. Which was my point.

That's very true. Unfortunately trying to develop reliable algorithms to detect different types of abuse that happens in matchmaking would be very difficult (each type of infraction involves different physics forces acting on two or more cars, their place on the track relative to the apex of the corner, etc).

Hence why iRacing went with a no-fault incident system.

A suggestion I'd have for GT Sport is to simply make SR-S a 'walled garden'. Give it no ghosting, damage, blue flag rules, and ban drivers from races for windows of time for accrued infractions.

Clean drivers want to get to SR-S, period. So once they get there, perhaps the game could enforce a much harsher standard of conduct to keep S class full of diligent people.

 

[afrojcactair]

@MikeTheHockeyFan Agree with the basis of your last post. "S" should be harder to come by and harder to keep. Ghosting and yellow flag complicate things. A problem is something like the south side of seaside. Person a second ahead clears the cutout bounces off the wall, stops in a spot you can't miss him. You don't know he's there till you shoot out at 120mph, and even if he ghosted he may very well unghost on you. Plus I wish there was a fix for when someone has a bad connection, and their car jumps around, their right in front, no there two seconds ahead.

I've got look into the radar view. Sounds helpful. I'm likely a dummy for not knowing already.

 

[Sven Jurgens]

How can l tell?
Because l can see the car behind if it's close enough.
Any car in any other position is clear as day and l can position my car accordingly.

How else do you propose l got to 20 consecutive clean races?
Pure luck?

People driving in views where they don't know the external limits of their car are a bigger menace than someone driving chase cam.

How can you tell someone is coming up from behind after a faster corner exit and you cut them off positioning your car for the next corner. I've had plenty times I'm about to overtake a car just for them to swerve and take out the nose of my car as I start coming up beside them. Check your mirrors before lane changes etc. Usually I manage to brake in time when I see someone swerve yet sometimes it's too close already.

 

[Foxis]

That's very true. Unfortunately trying to develop reliable algorithms to detect different types of abuse that happens in matchmaking would be very difficult (each type of infraction involves different physics forces acting on two or more cars, their place on the track relative to the apex of the corner, etc).

Hence why iRacing went with a no-fault incident system.

I think I have moaned before that I really, really wish GTS also had a pure no-fault system.
It is one of the best things about iRacing. Sure, it was annoying when I hit someone in a situation that was unavoidable and beyond my control. But at least it fostered a community where deliberate punting was extremely rare.

A suggestion I'd have for GT Sport is to simply make SR-S a 'walled garden'. Give it no ghosting, damage, blue flag rules, and ban drivers from races for windows of time for accrued infractions.

Clean drivers want to get to SR-S, period. So once they get there, perhaps the game could enforce a much harsher standard of conduct to keep S class full of diligent people.

Agreed. The SR levels have to mean something, and demotion should be swift and painful.

However, this all bounces back to my previous point: I suspect that the main reason it is quick and easy to gain SR is that PD knows that their penalty code is iffy. The harsher the penalties, the higher the demands on the system that hands them out.

It is a shame that PD does not set up some form of reporting system for racing incidents.
Sure, it would take a lot of man power if they were to review all incidents. But that would not be needed, just a few stated examples. If word gets around that they do view *some* (even very few) of them and ban people from online races for a few days / a week, I am quite sure it would have some impact.

 

[Mr616]

That's very true. Unfortunately trying to develop reliable algorithms to detect different types of abuse that happens in matchmaking would be very difficult (each type of infraction involves different physics forces acting on two or more cars, their place on the track relative to the apex of the corner, etc).

Hence why iRacing went with a no-fault incident system.

A suggestion I'd have for GT Sport is to simply make SR-S a 'walled garden'. Give it no ghosting, damage, blue flag rules, and ban drivers from races for windows of time for accrued infractions.

Clean drivers want to get to SR-S, period. So once they get there, perhaps the game could enforce a much harsher standard of conduct to keep S class full of diligent people.

This 100%. If your an S, almost zero contact should be tolerated. No blame. If 2 cars touch heavily enough both drivers lose their S rating. Then maybe every driver would 100% try to not touch, ram or nudge another. It's to easy to game the system. Needs to be harsher.

 

[Sloppy Shades]

For the record I went back and did one race today , purchased a Megvan cheat car and put a NERF livery on it. Would have been nice if I'd finished higher up but one dude decided I was his only opponent in the race.
I believe if you get rammed deliberately you should be able to submit ONE report to PD. If they agree offender gets 24 hour ban from sport races (not lobby). If they dont agree you have to wait a week before you can submit another report.
It would NEVER happen though. Banning idiots from Sport races in GT Sport would leave PD vulnerable to lawsuits in the US.
My S finished red of course in this race. I'm tempted to do a couple more today before quitting again for a while (never say never). Not for enjoyment sadly, just to see if I can out-Megane the Meganes WITH a Megane. My manhood is at stake!