The 2008 Dodge Viper: Now In Extra Spicy, With 600 BHP

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Yes, but the Viper has NO options, a gas guzzler tax, is extremely uncomfortable, with a race tuned suspension (which means a crap road ride), and the exhaust pipes running into the side sills, just so you remember last tuesdays run to the mall a little better. :grumpy:

The Z06 is a much more liveable car in the long run, with usable cargo space, relatively comfortable seats, and better fuel economy, not to mention the total lack of dealer support for the Viper, whereas the Corvette is much more easily serviced. (Or so I have read)
I wouldn't know about that, in terms of usable road cars both have been slated, but to talk about the Vipers suspension as being less road usable than the Vettes is just plain wrong. Of the two cars I would prefer the Vette based on price but I like both the Viper and the Z06, but as an everyday road car every single mag in the UK seems to agree, it just doesn't work. The Viper never got panned for half the stuff the Vette get's panned for regarding road use. The geenarl concensus here is that if you want an American car that's both sporty and good everyday, get a standard C6 Vette.
 
I've been a fan of the viper from way back when 450 hp was the stuff of supercars, and the viper was clearly the superior car, but the corvette has gradualy caught up and become the better car over the years.

It's good to see that america has finaly caught up to the rest of the world in terms of power. I say this viper will be the car to out run the SLR and if it cant catch the 599 then a 600 hp vette will.
 
Yes, but the Viper has NO options, a gas guzzler tax, is extremely uncomfortable, with a race tuned suspension (which means a crap road ride), and the exhaust pipes running into the side sills, just so you remember last tuesdays run to the mall a little better. :grumpy:

The Z06 is a much more liveable car in the long run, with usable cargo space, relatively comfortable seats, and better fuel economy, not to mention the total lack of dealer support for the Viper, whereas the Corvette is much more easily serviced. (Or so I have read)

Just my two cents.

So these aren't options to you?
-18x10.0" Front, 19x13.0" rear polished aluminum wheels
-7 Speakers with subwoofer and tweeters
-Sirius Satelite Radio
-Air conditioning
-Stripes.

Um, ok.

The comfort is a matter of opinion, honestly. I like the Viper's interior, and the way the seats are. I sat in a Vette and felt cramped. The only time I didn't was with one that said it had optional bucket seats.

Lack of support? Sure that doesn't just depend on the dealer, not the car?
Dodge of Plano is wonderful to me, though they rarely have Vipers in. Same with the Chevrolet dealer here.
But if I go way out of town to another Chevy dealer, nobody really pays me any attention and asks how if I need anything.

Dealer support depends on the dealer and its employees, not the car.
 
Well the Z06 did manage to pretty much match the SLR in straight line speed (on a track, it all goes to the Z06), and obviously the 599 is just beyond that. I doubt very much that the Viper will be that much faster than the Z06, given that it would have to make up nearly half a second in acceleration times, and I'm not sure if 100 BHP is enough to do that.

Either way, the cars are still outrageously fast and are still probably some of the fastest cars you can buy for less than $100K that are actually usable (M14, Atom, Ultima don't count here) on a day-to-day basis.
 
Very impressive but sadly, the article does not mention any changes to the handling capabilities.

This car might eat a C6, I highly doubt it'll "eat" one one a track with tight corners...

For the looks, still nothing better then the old GTS...


CCX:

That's typical for American engines, compare it to the Lancer MR. 2L and they push out a rough 400 HP out of it, and then there are cars with a 3.2L which nearly have 200 HP.

I'm not trying to sound, "Viper Fan #1", but I'm not too sure on whose better in terms of the average tracker. The Vette always gets regarded as a tail happy, twitchy car while the Viper is a very responsive to the driver car. I know it doesn't mean the Viper is any more or less better as it's an aggressive car, but I think in those terms a Viper could take one pretty well.

It's lap times at Gratton weren't really that far behind the Z06.
 
Well the Z06 did manage to pretty much match the SLR in straight line speed (on a track, it all goes to the Z06), and obviously the 599 is just beyond that. I doubt very much that the Viper will be that much faster than the Z06, given that it would have to make up nearly half a second in acceleration times, and I'm not sure if 100 BHP is enough to do that.

Either way, the cars are still outrageously fast and are still probably some of the fastest cars you can buy for less than $100K that are actually usable (M14, Atom, Ultima don't count here) on a day-to-day basis.

True, but let's look at the facts. How much does a SLR weight to a C6 Z06? Like, almost 500-600 pounds more? I know that makes a big difference.
 
McLaren
Lack of support? Sure that doesn't just depend on the dealer, not the car?
Dodge of Plano is wonderful to me, though they rarely have Vipers in. Same with the Chevrolet dealer here.
But if I go way out of town to another Chevy dealer, nobody really pays me any attention and asks how if I need anything.

Dealer support depends on the dealer and its employees, not the car.

Dealers here in Michigan get Corvettes and Vipers handed to them pretty much whenever they want. I believe Berger is one of the largest Corvette dealers in the state, let alone the country (I want to say the biggest is in California), and even the relatively small dealers around here can get you a Corvette if you really want one. According to our friends at the dealer, each one is allotted a given amount of Corvettes per year, some getting a lot more than others. Most will only get "regular" C6 models, while places liker Berger or Classic have a better chance of getting Z06 models more frequently.

Most dealers around here almost always have a Corvette of some kind on hand. They usually let you get in them, tinker around, and they do allow test drives, although I have yet to get one from a dealer (thats what friends are for).

As for the Viper, well obviously they are a bit more rare and a bit more low-volume than the Corvette. Of the Dodge dealers in town, normally they can get you one if you've got the cash, but normally there is a bit of wait involved. I've only been to the dealer a few times in which they have had a Viper on hand, as you are more likely to find a Ram SRT-10 than the Viper itself. The most I have seen together was indeed two Viper convertibles (this was before the coupe introduction), one black and the other white. Like the Chevrolet dealers, they will let you sit in them, tinker around, etc... But a test drive is pretty much out of the question if you don't have money with you.

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If we want to talk Grattan for a moment, that may turn out to be a very interesting race with the Viper's extra power. Given that GM was supposed to have sorted out the Corvette's suspension, it should be a tad bit easier to control around the uneven surfacing of the course. However, despite how "balanced" the Viper was reported to be, adding an extra 100 BHP is sure to have upset the balance in some way, so it may be a bit harder to handle.

One corner that does come to mind is the tight little twisty just before the (sort) back straight, similar to a carousel at the Nordschleife. Given the tightness of the corner, the Viper would likely fight it just a bit, requiring a larger slow-down, and then given the extra power, may be more likely to oversteer on the way out.

...But really, in-general, the whole back side of Grattan may become even more tricky for the Viper than ever before. Because of the extra power, it will likely become a less "tamed" beast around the track, and given the tighter corners, may have more issues with power on/off situations.

What I would like to see would be the race from the back corner at the bottom of the hill, all the way up to the front straight, and down into turn one. That should be good for 140 MPH before hitting the brakes, so it would be interesting to see who gets there first...

I'm still putting my money in the pockets of the Z06. Lighter, faster, more nimble all makes it seem like the better car at Grattan. Of course the tables could turn at a track like Road America or Silverstone, where longer stretches would presumably give the Viper a slight advantage.
 
we shall see. i would think that srt would have taken the power into consideration as far as handling is concerned. it would make sense from an engineering standpoint to make some tweaks to the chassis to make the car a more rounded package. i'm not saying anything big or revolutionary, but at least something like suspension setup etc. they also changed to michilen ps2 which should give it more grip. i don't think that srt would be stupid enough to really upset the handling of the viper with their latest engine and transmission changes. the new viper should handle the z06 no problem. nevertheless, i'm concerned about that blue devil gm keeps talking about. if the power to weight ration is anywhere were the current z06 is in comparison to the 2003-2006 model vipers, dodge is doomed. all i can say is GO VIPER!:D

after all, i love vipers (my favorite is still the gen 2 though. i hope they get some of that sexy rawness back in future models):)
 
WHY THANK YOU!!!!

i've been waiting for the viper to be revised from its first version....

AND HERE IT IS!!! WITH TONS OF POWER!!! :bowdown:
 
Either way, the cars are still outrageously fast and are still probably some of the fastest cars you can buy for less than $100K that are actually usable (M14, Atom, Ultima don't count here) on a day-to-day basis.
Why not the M14, I know that in America it's sold as a kit car, the powertrain is seperate to the car thanks to certain laws over there or something. But the M14 is not a true kit car, and it's nothing like the Atom or Ultima. Besides that the M14 is a damn sight more usable day to day than a Viper or Vette Z06 and it's pretty much as fast as a Z06 on a track, so why not the M14?
 
I was gonna point that out, the M14 is meant to be alot more luxurious than the Z06 and viper so it should be included.
 
Why not the M14, I know that in America it's sold as a kit car, the powertrain is seperate to the car thanks to certain laws over there or something. But the M14 is not a true kit car, and it's nothing like the Atom or Ultima. Besides that the M14 is a damn sight more usable day to day than a Viper or Vette Z06 and it's pretty much as fast as a Z06 on a track, so why not the M14?

And the Atom is sold in the US as a pre-assembled vehicle by Brammo Motorsports.
 
You know, it occurs to me that no one is on Ferrari's case for the gradual increase in displacement in their range. Porsche, BMW, and Aston Martin are also gaining in engine size as well.

Hells bells, there hasn't been a 200mph supercar under 4.0L since the Jaguar XJ220, and there's never been one under 4.0L without forced induction.

On top of that, quite honestly, I think that asking the street Viper to be as track-savvy as its competition brother - the Competition Coupe - is a little silly. Remember, this car still has to be tractable enough and have high enough limits that the lawyers, dentists, and stockbrokers who buy them as automotive jewelry don't stick 'em in the fence.

The Viper succeeds on its own merits as an exotic. Compare it against its competitors in the series where you find it (FIA GT3 and Speed World Challenge GT) and you'll see it's a competent performer, and its drivers rave that it's stone simple to drive quickly.

If you want a track ready Viper, they sell a track ready Viper. For people who want an outrageously fast piece of exotica that'll get the most attention at a suburban stoplight AND won't break the bank account (the Viper's other secret to success, it's an exotic that's considerably more expensive than the "commoners" 911 Carrera or standard Corvette, but not 2nd house expensive like a DB9 or Ferrari F430), the Viper is the e-ticket ride.
 
Why not the M14, I know that in America it's sold as a kit car, the powertrain is seperate to the car thanks to certain laws over there or something. But the M14 is not a true kit car, and it's nothing like the Atom or Ultima. Besides that the M14 is a damn sight more usable day to day than a Viper or Vette Z06 and it's pretty much as fast as a Z06 on a track, so why not the M14?

Good point. But I think it is the problem that it is a "kit car," and that it is very tough to get one in America for less than $100K... However, I've seen more M400/M14s than Vipers over the past year or so, and that is really strange...

But I don't know if I'd jump up can call the M14 more usable in a day-to-day situation. The Z06 is just as capable as a Corolla for driving about, as a matter of fact there are quite a few blokes who do it around here. As for the Viper, not so much... The Z06 is by far more comfortable between the three, has far more comforting options and add-ons, and fuel economy would be better than the other two as well.

It is kinda hard to describe how easy it is to live with a Corvette if you haven't driven one, much less ridden in one. I've only been around a Noble a time or two, had a look, but no chance to sit. Sure, it may be "comfortable," but it certainly wouldn't be my choice to live with, much less to do any kind of long-distance travel/rally.
 
And by comparison, every motoring source in the UK says that the ride of the Z06 is absolutely intolerable on the road...
 
Which still seems completely odd to me. I know we have discussed the issue countless times in so many different threads, but here in America I have yet to read of any kind of complaint about the ride of the car. If anything negative has been written, it would have been by Car and Driver who said that it was leaned too far towards "regular roads" than the track (hence the skittish suspension).

I dunno. I don't have a good answer. I haven't driven/ridden in a new Z06 (I have sat however), but I've had plenty of experience with other C6s and the old C5 Z06 (among other older Corvettes). I generally take C/D's word for it, especially when they did test the Z06 and Viper near my house in the comparison test, and generally test their vehicles throughout the rest of my home-state.

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Ya know, maybe we should get the guys from Top Gear and CAR together with the guys from Car and Driver and Automobile and have them compare notes about different cars and trucks. It would be interesting to see Clarkson go head-to-head with Csere on various topics, especially that of the Corvette and 335i Coupe.
 
I'm a bit confused as to why people are so hung-up on the idea of specific hp/litre. Not everybody wants a wring-the-neck S2000 engine, and not every car suits the power delivery of a forced-induction unit. Though, consider this; in the 15 years or so since the first Viper, there's been less than a half-litre of displacement increase to the engine, yet the increase in power is more than 200hp. Comparing the 'Egg's supercharged engine to the Viper is equivalent to saying "I don't understand how VW only gets a crappy 100hp out of their 1.4L engine when Mazda gets 250hp out of their 1.3L rotary".

Anywho, as for the actual news, I've always been a fan of the Viper, so it's good to see Dodge is keeping on top of the American cars in terms of power. I'm not one to promote the mindless power wars Daimler seems to love, but that always seemed to be the point of the Viper; to have more power than any other car in its class from the States. I'm not surprised this turned into another Viper vs Vette debate, but some things never change. Though, I haven't really seen a positive review of either car in any UK magazines.
 
I'm not surprised this turned into another Viper vs Vette debate, but some things never change. Though, I haven't really seen a positive review of either car in any UK magazines.

Which is even odder, as we all sort-of grudgingly like the Viper and Corvette - the only real problems with them are that they are wrong hand drive and lose the price edge they have in the US when sold over here.
 
the only real problems with them are that they are wrong hand drive and lose the price edge they have in the US when sold over here.

Wrong hand drive? Why is it that England decided drive on the other side of the road, anyway? Was it so you can shake hands and wave while driving past eachother in your buggies?

American cars are about being an asshole with huge balls, not being all courtly and gentleman-like.




... :lol:


So, anyway, what is the premium put on american vehicles or other grey imports?
 
Wrong hand drive?

The natural opposite to right-hand drive... :D

Why is it that England decided drive on the other side of the road, anyway? Was it so you can shake hands and wave while driving past eachother in your buggies?

Actually, ALL traffic originally "drove" on the left - dating back to the Romans. It may be due to the prevalence of right-handedness (riders would hold the reins in the left hand to leave the right-hand free for the sword. They would then ride on the left, to keep opponents on their stronger side). The origins of the US having traffic on the right side of the road apparently date back to the War of Independence (which isn't that surprising).

It has been posited that countries which drive on the left have lower accident rates because we're mainly right-eye dominant (as well as right-hand dominant), so driving on the left allows the driver to see oncoming vehicles with their dominant eye...


So, anyway, what is the premium put on american vehicles or other grey imports?

Grey imports have no premium - they are used vehicles, so beyond VAT payable on arrival, have no additional price attached.

With new vehicles sold through dealerships, the price is set by the manufacturers.

US
Corvette Z06 - $70,000
Viper SRT-10 - $85,745
BMW M5 - $85,200

UK
Corvette Z06 - £59,895 ($117,310)
Viper SRT-10 - £77,500 ($151,791)
BMW M5 - £63,495 ($124,361)

In the US, both the Viper and M5 are 22% more expensive than the Z06. In the UK the Z06 is still cheapest, but the M5 is only 6% more expensive and the Viper nearly 30% more expensive - yet the Corvette is 40% more expensive in the UK than any of the cars is in the US, and 68% more expensive than itself...
 

US
...
BMW M5 - $85,200

UK
...
BMW M5 - £63,495 ($124,361)

Just for shock value, I'll add.

AUS
BMW M5 - $230,500 ($183,076US,
£92,969)

For that price, I'd could pick any two of those cars in the US and still have change.
 
Doesn't a lot of that have to do with taxes as well. All things considered, taxes on new car purchases here in America appear to be relatively low by comparison to other countries. Added to that, you get the funky exchange rates that make purchases even more crazy.

Oddly enough, the differences that I have noticed between most "normal" vehicles sold on mainland Europe, America, and Australia don't seem to vary all too much. I've noticed that BMW 3-series prices are nearly identical between America and Germany, and the presumed prices of the Zeta cars in America are also reflected positively with pricing in the Australian market.
 
This one caught me completely by surprise. I didn't know till Motor Trend had it emblazoned across this month's cover.
 
Well, lets put it this way... Can you see the Viper powered by the following:

- 2.0L Turbocharged I4?
- 3.5L Twin-Turbocharged V6?
- 4.3L V8?

...I know I can't...


I don't think that was his point. It's just that for a supposedly lightweight sports car with a 8.4L V10, it seems a bit unimpressive that it's "only" 600HP. And I agree. They shouldn't need more displacement to reach that power level. They should have added character to what is otherwise a glorified drag racer: less weight, aerodyanmic improvements, greatly improved secondary ride.... All these things would have gone much further in proving the Viper's ability, rather than a 15% increase in power without a 15% increase in traction.



I dunno. I don't have a good answer. I haven't driven/ridden in a new Z06 (I have sat however), but I've had plenty of experience with other C6s and the old C5 Z06 (among other older Corvettes). I generally take C/D's word for it, especially when they did test the Z06 and Viper near my house in the comparison test, and generally test their vehicles throughout the rest of my home-state.

There's a big difference between roads "here" and roads "there". I would also point you to the differing reviews of the Mk1 Focus....


SlipZtrEam
Comparing the 'Egg's supercharged engine to the Viper is equivalent to saying "I don't understand how VW only gets a crappy 100hp out of their 1.4L engine when Mazda gets 250hp out of their 1.3L rotary".

That's a little factoid which has always bugged me. For a rotary to cycle all it's compression chambers, it needs just one revolution. For a piston engine to cycle all it's cylinders, it needs two revolutions. Wouldn't it be only fair for the two to be compared on equal crankshaft revolutions? And if so, that means the 13B is truly a 26B, and thus the power outputs start to make more sense (in a HP/L way...as if that really means anything to anyone here).
 
I don't think that was his point. It's just that for a supposedly lightweight sports car with a 8.4L V10, it seems a bit unimpressive that it's "only" 600HP. And I agree. They shouldn't need more displacement to reach that power level. They should have added character to what is otherwise a glorified drag racer: less weight, aerodyanmic improvements, greatly improved secondary ride.... All these things would have gone much further in proving the Viper's ability, rather than a 15% increase in power without a 15% increase in traction.

I agree that Dodge shouldn't have to increase displacement to increase horsepower. Pushrod motors just aren't good at the whole hp/L thing, though. And everyone know that the Viper's motor can make and handle well over 1000 horsepower.

The Viper's tires have changed from the old Michelin Pilot Sport to the newer and better Michelin Pilot Sport 2, or PS2. I think these tires may show a handling benefit.

Your "more power, no more traction" sentence conveys the idea that the car's tires can't handle the torque. With the old 510 horses the rear tires were actually quite reluctant to spin in first gear, at least while going straight. If the power was rolled on smoothly that tires would grip with little drama. If the car was much lighter that wouldn't be true anymore though, because there would be less weight to hold the tires in place.
 
I've seen most C6 ZO6's go for around $75-79k. Heard of a few guys on ZO6vette somehow getting them for around $65 and msrp. THose are usually guys who are buddy-buddy with dealers and have bought several cars through the dealers previously.

Either way both the C6 ZO6 and the Viper(ANY year) are extremely sweet cars which I wouldn't mind owning at all. I'm just a slightly bigger fan of the C6Z for some reason.

How about road taxes for these two? I'd really like to know this actually, not to mention what it costs to drive a CCR :crazy:
 
Pushrod motors just aren't good at the whole hp/L thing, though.

Try out a Gaerte-built USAC midget four cylinder. 166ci (that's equal to about 2.7L) pushrod four-banger that'll produce almost 400hp.

A pushrod engine is - with careful design - the equal of an overhead cam engine on any day of the week, even with comparable displacements. Things such as combustion chamber shape, compression, reciprocating assembly weight, valve size and angle of operation, and so on have as much to bear on engine output as the operation mechanism of the valves.

The reason OHV technology is so prevalent in the United States has very little to do with its quality as a technology. OHV engines have an inherent durability that's very consumer friendly. The old engineering saw goes "The more components you eliminate, the more critical the remaining components become."

The most extreme example of this is the Wankel. Mazda had - for a time - a string of commercials featuring various Mazda race cars bragging how the racing rotaries never lost a race because they "dropped a valve" or "threw a rod". This is entirely true, the Wankel doesn't have a zillion little things that can sour an engine, but instead it has three or four things that are verbatim terminal.

Bent pushrod? No big deal, you can keep going with a bit of a lumpy idle. OHC designs simply don't have that luxury. As such, for a mass buying public that's vastly uninterested in automotive maintenance (in fact, it's seen as an unpleasant nuisance to many Americans, not a necessity) the pushrod engine that can make the same power as an OHC design, but has built-in redundancies against neglect is very appealing.

After all, what manufacturer wants a reputation for cars that break down at the slightest hint of a problem? Early belt-driven OHC engines in American cars received reputations for being problem children because of the added maintenance of a timing belt(!).
 
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