The 2009 Ford Ka: US Bound? Depends on How Much Cash Ford Wants to Make

[nd 4 holden spd]

So, Ford is developing a 3 cylinder, there's a new Ka on the horizon, and there's talk of a sportier version when Ford are quite keen on Ecoboost. 💡 Ecoboost 3 cylinder in the Ford Ka!

 

[Joey D]

The Mazda 2 would like to have a word with you.

The original Mini is smaller I would assume. Actually according to it's Wiki page the length of a Mazda 2 is 153.5" or if you want something from Mazda itself here is the South African site: http://www.mazda.co.za/servlet/ContentServer?cid=1178824119017&pagename=Page&site=MSA&c=DFYPage

3885mm which = ~152.95" the new MINI is 145.6" and that had to get bigger because of EU bumper requirements. So the Mazda 2 can not have a word with me since the original Mini is smaller then both of them since it was about 120" long.

I can't figure out the weight since I have no idea how the South African's classify things. I would guess the Mazda 2 has a curb weight of 995kg = 2,105lbs. which is a few hundred pounds more then the new Mini which is 2,500lbs. Still both are significantly heavier then the original Mini which weighed 1,360lbs.

You say that but there's alot of really flimsy electric cars knocking around London nowadays. Sure, they won't reach more than 30-40mph but the cars that run alongside them can still do 80-90mph+

They are classified as quadacycles though right? Not the same safety requirements.

The 107 / Aygo / C1 would also disagree with you.... actually loads of super small cars in europe are easy to lift with like 2 people.

Robin

Aren't all three of those cars the same? While they are shorter they still outweigh the original Mini by several hundred pounds.

===

I stick with my point, all modern cars are going to be bigger and heavier then their previous models do to safety requirements bought forth by the government. The original Fiat 500 had a size of just 72.4" long, the new one though is nearly double that at 3.55m or ~139". It weighs about a ton as well so 2,000lbs. but the original was 900lbs. less at 1,100lbs.

Cars like the original Mini and 500 wouldn't fly today, you can't design cars like that due to regulations.

 

[TheCracker]

I can't figure out the weight since I have no idea how the South African's classify things. I would guess the Mazda 2 has a curb weight of 995kg

From the figures i can find it has a curb weight of 1030 kg - for the 3-door Mazda 2.

 

[Joey D]

From the figures i can find it has a curb weight of 1030 kg - for the 3-door Mazda 2.

Going by the South African site's Tare Vehicle Mass (which I assume is the weight of the vehicle) it's 995kg. But I don't really know how to read that correctly. But 1030kg makes the vehicle even heavier so the point I was trying to make is still there.

 

[nd 4 holden spd]

Even Commodore 6 cylinders used to weigh like 1200kg (early '80s), and now they're up to 500kg heavier!

 

[GilesGuthrie]

Congrats to Ford for making what was once a very distinctive little car into a Vauxhall Corsa clone

And the Corsa itself is a bit of an inspiration-fail after looking at a Renault Clio.

What was great about the original Ka was that it was great in spite of the lack of effort in making it. Really, it's a parts-bin special to get Ford into an emerging market, and yet it hung around for ten years. Which is longer than the utterly awesome Mark 1 Focus!

 

[Robin]

This is what the Corsa should have looked like.. all angry and pumped but unfortunately... Its just the new curvy lights that I dislike...

 

[Tornado]

Cars like the original Mini and 500 wouldn't fly today, you can't design cars like that due to regulations.

Again, that was only a minor part of Robin's original point.

 

[Joey D]

Again, that was only a minor part of Robin's original point.

How do you figure that? He said cars like that missed the point, but they had to miss the point that they once made because of motoring legislation. The Ka probably had to be redesigned to meet with certain EU standards like other cars.

 

[Tornado]

Actually, no. He said that the redesigned Ka (like the redesigned Mini) lost the spirit of the original car. The original Ka was a modern day interpretation of the Mini in its clever packaging, use of materials, simpleness to build, reliability, durability and cheapness. These were things that the old Mini is known for. You are so hung up on weight and size that you either are ignoring everything else or were ignorant about everything else. The size and weight was only a single part of his whole point that does nothing to detract from it. Modern day crash standards and the like do nothing to prevent Ford from merely making a larger, heavier version of the original Ka that had all of the same ideas that the old one did. That reasoning for the weight argument also doesn't hold water in this case: The next Ka will be built on the Fiat Panda platform, so the car could be smaller and lighter than the old one.

The Toyota Aygo shows that cars can still be built with the same philosophy that the original Mini had with only a couple of details fudged. It was designed to be cheap to build, repair, buy and own. It was designed to be packaged efficiently. It was designed to use its materials in the most efficient way possible. Essentially designing a car to be cheap rather than cheapening a more expensive car. But instead of trying to follow the original Ka's spirit, Ford (like BMW did with the Mini) redesigned it and repositioned it by a completely different design philosophy. With the Mini, it was changing the car to a premium sports hatch. With the Ka, it was turning it into a smaller Fiesta. Furthermore, one could make an argument that some Kei cars (Mitsubishi i for example) follow the formula of the original Mini as closely as the original Mini did.

Cars can still be designed with the same philosophy as the original Mini. One just needs to understand what the philosophy was. As Americans, we don't view the Mini as an incredibly clever use of materials and packaging. We view it as a trendy, cool car because we were exposed to them by famous people. That view is what BMW cashed in on with the new Mini. Why do you think the the VW Up! concept drove everyone crazy when VW showed it off, yet no one loves the New Beetle? Because one is a modern day interpretation of the original Beetle from a design point of view, and one is a modern day interpretation of the new Beetle from a styling point of view. The similarity the Ka had with the old Mini is why the old Ka has been such a huge success for Ford Europe. Ford didn't even try recreate that philosophy with the new Ka. They were given a platform to build the car on that would have allowed them to prevent weight or size gains, so there is no excuse for the Ka to be changed into a baby Fiesta. That is why no one seems to care about it, because Ford doesn't seem to care why the Ka was such a success in the first place and instead took the easy way out when making the new Ka.

 

[Robin]

^ What Toronado said 👍

 

[Venari]

This is the last Ka I drove, a week ago.

1600 Zetec-S 16V engine, bike throttle bodies (hence the 'bulge') custom engine management, dyno proven 150hp, SportKa style underfloor brace, new aftermarket suspension, set of cheapy alloys and some sticky tyres.

Best handling FWD car I have ever driven - bar none. It was a hoot!

 

[SlipZtrEm]

I can't figure out the weight since I have no idea how the South African's classify things. I would guess the Mazda 2 has a curb weight of 995kg = 2,105lbs. which is a few hundred pounds more then the new Mini which is 2,500lbs. Still both are significantly heavier then the original Mini which weighed 1,360lbs.

I stick with my point, all modern cars are going to be bigger and heavier then their previous models do to safety requirements bought forth by the government. The original Fiat 500 had a size of just 72.4" long, the new one though is nearly double that at 3.55m or ~139". It weighs about a ton as well so 2,000lbs. but the original was 900lbs. less at 1,100lbs.

Cars like the original Mini and 500 wouldn't fly today, you can't design cars like that due to regulations.

I'm not surprised you're missing the point again.

"I stick with my point, all modern cars are going to be bigger and heavier then their previous models do to safety requirements bought forth by the government."

That was exactly what I was getting at with the Mazda 2. Despite it being a newer model, it weighs significantly less than the one it replaces. Or how about the current XJ? It's noticeably bigger in every direction than the previous, but weighs significantly less.

Hell, even the new LP560/4 is slightly lighter than the old model, despite being a fraction longer and having a bigger engine. The weight increases you speak of are only seen from lazy manufacturers who don't bother trying to offset the added weight of consumer demands. And actually... the 500 comparison isn't even a realistic one, the old car was designed in a completely seperate generation than the new one. But considering the new one is "nearly double" the size of the old one, I guess the fact it weighs double really isn't a big deal then, heh.

Fake Edit: I think the new 7-series is lighter than the old too, but I can't find any hard sources.

 

[forza2.0]

100% agree with you, while I am biased, the current Ka is a simply great car.

The 1.3 (which is what my wife has) is a great engine, derived from the Ford Kent engine block it both sounds great and goes well. The interior of the car is excellently packaged (keep in mind that this is a decade old design now) and well thought out. The shape manages to avoid the problem most small cars have, and that is of rear head room, it also allows you to carry quick a surprising amount with the rear seats folded down.

As an example of that we bought a new cage for our rats this weekend (one of ours dies so we ended up adopting three new ones), my 320 was a total fail to get the new (very large) cage in it. Being a saloon the boot opening was too small and the M-sports seats stopped it getting loaded in that way. The Ka however was a different story, fold the back seats down and it went straight in through the boot no problem at all.

All of which is aside from just how well they drive, sorry Forza 2.0 but you can keep your Ibiza. It may have a better quality interior, but having driven many examples of both, I would rather have a basic Ka to drive over a basic Ibiza. Grippy front end + light rear + a short wheelbase = lift off oversteer and FUN.

The new one just looks a bit boring, shame really.

Oh and despite Forza 2.0's claim they are not expensive second hand at all, hell you can buy a Ka Sport 1.6 with 3k on the clock for less than a basic 1.2 entry level Ibiza (£8,995 for a 1.2 Ecomotive Freerider).


Regards

Scaff

Cant say I have driven a KA, or a basic ibiza but it still stands that overall it was odd for that ford dealership to sell a 2 year old 30,000 mile car for little less than a brand new ibiza considering the KA is a tiny tin car of a vehicle.

Perhaps its just my local ford dealer taking the mick? I went in there to buy a zetec s fiesta, they messed me about, tried to sell their vehilces for ludacrious prices so I just upped left and bought my ibiza the next day instead.

I would say 7 grand for a near 2 year old KA is expensive though and I was looking at london dealerships who would be more costly.

I stick with my point, all modern cars are going to be bigger and heavier then their previous models do to safety requirements bought forth by the government.

The new ibiza is lighter than the outgoing version even though its bigger, the new fiesta is also lighter than the outgoing version and the new audi a4 is also lighter than the model it replaced. The mazda 2 argument doesnt really wash though as the new mazda 2 is a completely different vehicle really.

 

[Tornado]

The mazda 2 argument doesnt really wash though as the new mazda 2 is a completely different vehicle really.

How so? It sits in the same segment, is powered by engines based on the prior engines, and is roughly the same size.

 

[YSSMAN]

Which all makes a pretty fair bit of sense too. I guess, at least for me, I look at the "value" of the car, and it makes the Ka seem more special to me. If its going to give me 9/10ths the Fiesta in a smaller and more efficent package, why not?

The sad part is that we don't know the official details, and furthermore, we can assume that we won't get one here either. Oh well.

 

[forza2.0]

How so? It sits in the same segment, is powered by engines based on the prior engines, and is roughly the same size.

the old mazda 2 was more of a mpv in my mind and was larger.

 

[Tornado]

Ah. Okay.

 

[killer450235]

The new Ka looks like a downgraded Fiesta(other thread) but I could be wrong.

 

[EA11R]

Can't really say I like this one. I don't like the way it's a Fiesta styling, but thrown out of proportion, then shrunk.

And, I think the American market can be more than content with the smallness of the new Fiesta. The new Ka is too small, and not good-looking enough, for the Americans to take it seriously, at least when it's sold alongside the Fiesta.

Don't misunderstand me, I'm all for small cars, but the Ka in America? That won't do, because it won't have anything interesting enough about it.

 

[YSSMAN]

Two new photos arise:

I still like it. Even if it isn't quite as "simple" as it used to be.

 

[ExigeEvan]

Who stuck a Ford badge on a corsa?

 

[Jim Prower]

I keep hearing comparisons to the Corsa. I guess since we don't get the latter here, I really don't mind that fact.

 

[YSSMAN]

We're due to get the Corsa soon-ish, problem is, the Astra isn't selling well. That doesn't bode well for the "hey, lets ship Opels here" idea from before. Also, remember that the Corsa is a Fiesta competitor if I'm not mistaken, GM is without a micro-car on the world stage.

 

[Tornado]

We're due to get the Corsa soon-ish, problem is, the Astra isn't selling well.

Good. It doesn't deserve to.

 

[homeforsummer]

Glad to see such support of the old Ka in here. I have to admit that when it was released I wasn't a fan, but then when it was released I was only eleven years old and by virtue knew nothing and couldn't appreciate it like I can today.

The original Ka looked like it was wearing a nappy. It had dumpy proportions and a horrible interior - the only thing coherent about the old Ka was its ugliness.

This is what I thought when it was released, and I couldn't understand why all the journalists loved it. However my opinion changed completely over the years. The versions with colour-keyed bumpers completely get rid of the "nappy" problem, but even the originals are good looking cars to my eyes, and having such large tough bumpers is very practical in town where most are driven.

Basically I completely disagree with your comment but I can understand why you don't like the car, because I've been there myself. However I think your comments would be tempered by driving one, as they're brilliant cars to drive.

His answer was that even though the KA wouldnt be a patch on the ibiza

Its because the new one goes totally against the idea of the original.... plus it bares no family resemblance to its predecessor at all and is just a new Fiesta put in the microwave like the new Corsa.

The old Ka was like the modern original Mini...... it was cheap, very realible, resistant to damage, well built and it kinda looked good, the interior is like a shrine to 90's euro design... remember that clock!

Agree completely with this post. The original Ka really was the Mini of the 90s, at a time when Mini (Rover) themselves were winding down production of the classic car. The only real Mini competitor back then was the Fiat Cinquecento, which was a good fun little car but objectively not a patch on the Ka - and nor was the Mini.

100% agree with you, while I am biased, the current Ka is a simply great car.

Agree with all of your post Scaff. I regret that when I was car-hunting for my first car over five years ago, I chose the '98 S-reg Fiesta instead of the '98 S-reg Ka next to it in the dealership. Mechanically they were identical, but the extra £500 for the Ka would have given me power steering and a lower insurance group! I'm just glad I've driven one since.

Congrats to Ford for making what was once a very distinctive little car into a Vauxhall Corsa clone

+1

The Toyota Aygo shows that cars can still be built with the same philosophy that the original Mini had with only a couple of details fudged. It was designed to be cheap to build, repair, buy and own. It was designed to be packaged efficiently. It was designed to use its materials in the most efficient way possible. Essentially designing a car to be cheap rather than cheapening a more expensive car.

For me, the Aygo/107/C1 is the Ka (is the Mini) of the '00s. Conceptually so similar to the Ka and original Mini - looks good, youthful spirit, cheap to buy and run, economical, light, quick enough to be fun, handles well. Your last sentence is all of those cars in a nutshell - designed to be cheap.

However good the new Ford Ka is, it's a conceptual disappointment and a poor replacement of the original. Which is exactly a comment that can be levelled at the new MINI. Fantastic car, but emphatically not a Mini.

 

[forza2.0]

I dont see the issue every one is having with the new ka. So its slightly bigger than the old version, who is to say it will be more pricey. Alot of the new cars coming out these days are actually starting off at a cheaper price than the outgoing versions.

This new KA might look expensive in the press photos but thats what they are meant to be. Chances are the interior will still be budget (a good thing before anyone flames) like in the new fiesta (not such a good thing), but one wont notice till they actually sit in the car. Also this KA shown is obviously not a entry level model. The entry level will probably start off with hub caps and not alloy wheels. What ford have done is make a attractive looking small car that looks more grown up and will most likely cost about the same as the outgoing version. Its a success.

Dealer markups will be interesting, but going in the past how mainly women (many of whom are new drivers) will buy a KA over a fiesta with a similiar price tag and goodies I dont think they will have issues shifting them.

 

[homeforsummer]

I dont see the issue every one is having with the new ka.

Then you're clearly not reading our posts. None of us are saying it'll be a bad car, quite the contrary, we're just saying it doesn't follow the same ethos of the original. It doesn't stand out anymore. The original car was a seminal small car. The new one will just be another city car lost in the marketplace.

What ford have done is make a attractive looking small car that looks more grown up and will most likely cost about the same as the outgoing version. Its a success.

It's not a success until it's selling and selling well. And personally, I don't find it particularly attractive so it certainly isn't a success from that standpoint. And looking at many of the other posts in this thread I'm not in a minority with that opinion. I'm doubtful that it'll cost the same as the current model as well. It'll be similar in price to the Fiat 500 it's based on I'd think, and considering the current Ka has been on sale for 12 years and the dealers are doing massive discounts from list, I very much doubt you'd get the same discount on the new car.

 

[Omnis]

Two new photos arise:

I still like it. Even if it isn't quite as "simple" as it used to be.

Yep, I'm convinced. They took a Ferrari California texture and shrunk it around a Ka body.

 

[forza2.0]

Then you're clearly not reading our posts. None of us are saying it'll be a bad car, quite the contrary, we're just saying it doesn't follow the same ethos of the original. It doesn't stand out anymore. The original car was a seminal small car. The new one will just be another city car lost in the marketplace.

I disagree. So because it doesnt look like it cost 2 grand for ford to build its now no longer special or standout? This new model looks better in every way. Job done. Success.

It's not a success until it's selling and selling well. And personally, I don't find it particularly attractive so it certainly isn't a success from that standpoint. And looking at many of the other posts in this thread I'm not in a minority with that opinion. I'm doubtful that it'll cost the same as the current model as well. It'll be similar in price to the Fiat 500 it's based on I'd think, and considering the current Ka has been on sale for 12 years and the dealers are doing massive discounts from list, I very much doubt you'd get the same discount on the new car.

So the last one was attractive? Perhaps the sportka but not the normal KA. Every manufacturer does big discounts when the new model comes out so thats a unfair comparison, as once this new KA gets replaced in 10 odd years it will be the same story.

KA or those crappy aygo thingys/c1/102 or whatever the peugeot version is called and im sure people will go with the KA.