The age of the Earth

  • Thread starter Thread starter milefile
  • 68 comments
  • 2,374 views
Define the universe and give three examples. Extra blue books are available at the proctor's desk.
 
Originally posted by Red Eye Racer
Life on earth has been present for approx 3.5 billion years,... proof commin when I get time to surf.

or how about BECAUSE I SAID SO

:lol:

i think its up there tho.....cuz of the dinosaurs and all that crap..
 
World Book Multimedia Encyclopedia. Chicago: World Book, 1996.

"Rocks of the Archeon eon contain the earliest fossils, which are about 3 1/2 billion years old."


Want more?
 
Here's a little more for the argument of evolution:

According to Aristotle, "Life in the first instance, is formed by the inherent energy of the primary elements such as: Earth, Water, Air and Fire which molds and organizes inert matter into living things." Some examples of this idea are fireflies developed from the morning dew, bedbugs and lice developed from the slime of wells and mice along with some higher animals came from moist soil. Aristotle also felt that humans first appeared on Earth in the form of a worm. - Ron Higgins, 1997

Not factual by any means,... but thought provoking none the less.
 
Well the reason I asked is because I saw a link to a website that provided biblical explanations for things like evolution and the age of the earth. There is a section on dinosaurs, the most famous ancient animals. It's language very confidently noted that scientists have merely found these "bones" in the ground and, due to their preconceived notions of evolution-ism, assume they are as old as they are. It then goes on to do some simple math that is supposed to prove that the biblical account of the passage of time reveals the factual age of the Earth.

I couldn't help noticing how the fossils are repeatedly referred to as "bones". They are not bones. They are rocks. And I thought that was misleading. I also couldn't help noticing the conspicuous absence of any scientific method mentioned, whatsoever. There are ways of determining the age of rocks which adhere to the scientific method, which is totally acceptable when it has developed a medicine or engineered a vehicle, but when it tells us where we came from, it is clandestinely concealed and brushed over without even a modicum of consideration. Hypocritical.

I also couldn't help noticing the lack of any accounting for the contradiction in the fact that archaeologists have uncovered 6000 year old cities and tombs and have found many things, including animal and human remains, and none of them are fossilized. Six thousand years is not enough time for anything to fossilize.

There are two ways to date fossils. One is relative dating. It is based on geology and estimates a time period based on the strata of rock is was found in. Geology is as groundbreaking as astronomy in revealing the age of the world.

The other way, which uses technology, measures radioactive decay in the rocks. It is known that certain elements like potassium and carbon decay at a certain rate. The stability of these atoms can be measured and the age of the rock is revealed. Another way is to measure the magnetism of the rocks and compare that to the same magnetism in various layers of the earth. The shifts in the magnetic field over time leave their mark in the rocks. The fossil record supports RER's post. Life on Earth of 3500 million years. Humans on earth for about 120,00 years.

It is worth noting that Galileo was tried as a criminal for insisting the Earth revolved around the sun, which we now take for granted. His contemporaries thought him wrong and even dangerous. And that was not very long ago. We are still in the era of discovery. Galileo's discovery is where we get our modern use of the word "revolution" to point to radical change.
 
Excellent synopsis mile 👍 It's funny cause the biblical side does all the guessing,... but they insist that scientists are guesssing,... so, how do we prove who is guessing and who isn't,...?,..... by using the gift of logic and reason. Science is exact because it is, pardon the expression, an exact science. Millions upon millions of hours trouble-shooting tells us more than just 1+1=2. People have been trouble-shooting science for centuries,.. thats how it's exact,.. centuries is a very long time when it comes to trouble-shooting. The bible isn't scientific documentation,... the creator never trouble-shot his scenerio's,... it's a bed-time story, not evidence.
 
That's a fundamental mistake that non-scientific people always make. They point to uncertainty as if it invalidates science as a whole. In actuality science is all about being wrong - but the goal is to be righter than you were yesterday, then to repeat that process forever.
 
milefile:

To date a rock by radiometric means, one must first assume:


What the initial amount of the parent atoms was at the time that the rock formed.
That the original composition of the rock contained no daughter atoms.[76]
That neither parent nor daughter atoms have ever been added or removed from the rock.
That the decay rate of parent atom to daughter atom has always remained constant.


If these assumptions are correct, then the radiometric dates are correct. However, there is no way to independently test these assumptions. If they are wrong, the method could yield faulty dates that might be far too old.

When dating a rock, the geochronologist (scientist who performs the dating procedure) must first assume the rock’s age before it is dated. For example, if a scientist believes a piece of rock is 4.5 billion years old, he or she may then use the uranium-lead dating method because it has a half-life of about 4.5 billion years. This involves circular reasoning, as is clearly evident in the article on dating in the Encyclopedia Britannica: “Most geologists must rely on geochronologists for their results. In turn, the geochronologist relies on the geologist for relative ages.”[77] The geochronologist must also be sure that the rate of decay, from uranium to lead for example, has remained constant in the rock over the past 4.5 billion years. Furthermore, the amount of uranium in the rock that was present to begin with must also be assumed. And neither uranium nor lead can have ever been added or removed from the specimen by any natural circumstances, catastrophic or otherwise. If all of these assumptions are correct, then the resulting dates are correct. However if even one of these assumptions is wrong, then the resulting dates are erroneous.


Why does radiometric dating repeatedly result in very old dates (such as billions of years)? While one explanation is that these dates show the specimens’ true age, another is that one or more of these large assumptions associated with this method of dating is wrong.


Scientists have dated lava rock samples from various active volcanoes with the radiometric method. Because the formation of these rocks has recently been observed, radiometric dating should not give them an age of millions of years.[78] Yet there are many such examples. Consider the following:


Rock which was formed in 1986 from a lava dome at Mount St. Helens volcano was dated by the Potassium-Argon method as 0.35 ± 0.05 million years old.[79]


Rocks from five recent lava flows at Mt. Ngauruhoe in New Zealand were dated using the Potassium-Argon method, and resulted in dates ranging from <0.27 to 3.5 million years – but one lava flow occurred in 1949, three in 1954, and one in 1975.[80]


Salt Lake Crater on Oahu was determined to be 92-147 million years, 140-680 million years, 930-1580 million years, 1230-1960 million years, 1290-2050 million years, and 1360-1900 years old, using different radiometric dating methods.[81]


How did 1000 year old carbon-dated trees in the Auckland volcanic field of New Zealand get buried under 145,000-465,000 year old Potassium-Argon-dated lava rock?[82]


One explanation given by scientists for some of these incorrect dates is that excess argon was retained in the rocks when they solidified from a molten state. According to the Canadian Journal of Earth Sciences, “It is common to discard ages which are substantially too high or too low compared with the rest of the group or with other available data such as the geological time scale… The discrepancies between the rejected and the accepted are arbitrarily attributed to excess or loss of argon.”[83]


If excess argon can cause exaggerated dates for rocks of known age, then why should this dating method be trusted for rocks of unknown age?


No one knows for sure if any of the assumptions of radiometric dating are correct, however this is the only method of dating that is considered “absolute.”[84] Physics professor and researcher Dr. Saami Shaibani, a leading consultant for America’s Federal Bureau of Investigation (FBI), who has one hundred scholarly articles to his credit and has been designated International Expert in his field by the US Departments of Labor and Justice, realizes, “In man-made dating methods, there is assumption upon assumption, plus a couple of more assumptions sprinkled in, plus some blind guesswork. And this masquerades as wonderful, legitimate methodology, but it’s not.”[85]

I'll leave that for your interpretation.
 
Thats fine and dandy Pako,.. but you would have to assume that EVERY test was corrupted,... I doubt that they were,... cause without accurate results, they wouldnt be able to determine the tolerances.... just a thought.

And the "1000 year old trees" dated the way they did because the were protected from coorosion,... the same theory holds true int he caves in france where they found the oldest known cave paintings. They were there, undisturbed, for 10000+ years,.. until we exposed oxygen to them,... that exposure accelertated the decay to it's original state,... basically, the cave is rotting at 10x the normal rate.....

same goes for out of date food when you take it out of the freezer ;)
 
Pako: The article illuminates the uncertainty of science and portrays it as it's one, single characteristic and uses it to somehow discard it. I hope for all our sakes this twisted pseudo-logic never succeeds. It is worth noting that in estimating the age of rocks and dinosaur fossils, a margin of error of several million years is totally acceptable. I see no problem with it at all. It's the difference between 3.5 billion and 3.48 billion. The larger variations are errors. Errors occur all the time in science and are confronted. Errors in the bible are denied, and not because there aren't any.

All scientific theory is circular logic. Physics, the science that makes your computer a reality, is founded on Newton's imagination. He says "I imagine in my mind" a plane with no boundary or gravity. A force-less space that exists nowhere in the universe except Newton's mind. The laws of physics play out and are formed in this space. And yet we don't see anyone attempting to refute it? I wonder why?

Quantum theory, which nobody understands, is still used in all kinds of consumer electronic products. Without it there'd be no Pentium processors, no picture phones, no DVDs. Nobody understands it, but it works. And yet if quantum mechanics were somehow used to demonstrate the age of the Earth it'd be attacked at quackery faster than you can say a Hail Mary.

Any good, honest scientist will be the first to point to the uncertainty of his science. And this is what keeps him working and searching. This quote:

“In man-made dating methods, there is assumption upon assumption, plus a couple of more assumptions sprinkled in, plus some blind guesswork. And this masquerades as wonderful, legitimate methodology, but it’s not.”

is precisely what is so credible and tangible and attractive about science. It makes it even more convincing. It is 0.52 million times more tenable than the notion that the Earth is 6000 years old or younger because the bible says so.

And I'd love for you to try and explain why in 6000 year old archaeological sites there are no fossils.
 
milefile:

The only point I'm making here is that the results of such dating techniques are subjective, and I would be careful what you call Fact. I have not personally carbon dated or radiometric dated, but from I have read from all aspects of it, it is not an exact science. The science of evolution screams for justice, yet the fossil records fall short of what Darwin had hoped and originally theorized. Do you think the Earth to be 3.5 billion years old because of what the World Book Multimedia Encyclopedia tells you based on anything but perfect scientific speculation.
 
Originally posted by Pako
milefile:

The only point I'm making here is that the results of such dating techniques are subjective, and I would be careful what you call Fact. I have not personally carbon dated or radiometric dated, but from I have read from all aspects of it, it is not an exact science. The science of evolution screams for justice, yet the fossil records fall short of what Darwin had hoped and originally theorized. Do you think the Earth to be 3.5 billion years old because of what the World Book Multimedia Encyclopedia tells you based on anything but perfect scientific speculation.

The age of the earth is an estimate. Like I said, a margin of error of hundreds of millions of years would be insignificant in this debate. Geologists do not need to know the exact age of rocks. Geological time is written in layers. When a geologist looks at the face of a cliff he sees layers of rock, each laid down at a certain time. Within each of those layers are fossils and chemical and magnetic signatures that place it in a certain period. The rocks are not date stamped. It takes human investigation and intuition to find the period.

Here is a good way of explaining it I read... Here is a list of events:

TV in every household
The first airplane flight
WW II
Man on the moon
WW I

We can put these in order without a calendar based on what we already know. WWI was obviously before WWII. There were planes in WW! so that had to be after the first airplane. The moon landing was on TV so the popularity of TV had to have happened before that. And Rockets came after airplanes. We can put them in order using what we know, and without using a calendar.

The same can be done for geology. When a layer of rock is dated all the information gathered over the past 200+ years of geology comes into play. They know that if it has this fossil it must be older than another layer because that plant is not represented in later periods (and sometimes something totally new comes up and they learn *gasp*). Science is the continual building of knowledge. The knowledge it builds can and should be used to further itself. The goal and effect is understanding. Because this process never stops the theory is always being modified, and Darwin was merely the origin of the idea of evolution. His original theory barely resembles what he came up with. More and more evidence, some corroborative and some contradictory has been revealed. Thus goes science. There is no reason to utterly disregard science because it admits to being inexact. Every shed of evidence ever revealed by geology points to a very, very old Earth. There is no evidence whatsoever for a very young Earth. So they may be off by a couple million years. I'll forgive that.

I think people choose to believe that Earth is so young because it inflates the significance of humanity, albeit artificially. Ironic, then, that humanity's will to know should discover something else.
 
Originally posted by Red Eye Racer
Thats fine and dandy Pako,.. but you would have to assume that EVERY test was corrupted,... I doubt that they were,... cause without accurate results, they wouldnt be able to determine the tolerances.... just a thought.

The pro-Christian websites all have a bit of a 'slant' that way.
 
This is a very simplified example on a quantum level, the results of tests are based on the test themselves. If the test was setup to detect an "action A", then the test would result in documenting "action A", likewise, if the test was setup to detect "action B" the result would be documented that "action B" had taken place. If the test was setup to detect both "action A" and "action B" the results would show both. In conclusion, it is the test and the means of testing that determines the end result. What does this mean? I really have no idea, but I thought it might be interesting to share how test results can vary on a quantum level.
 
Originally posted by milefile

Here is a good way of explaining it I read... Here is a list of events:

TV in every household
The first airplane flight
WW II
Man on the moon
WW I

The first airplane flight, courtesy of the state of Ohio, the true birthplace of aviation, took place on December 17, 1903. World War II began for the US on December 7, 1941. Man landed on the moon on 31 July, 1969. World War I began in August 1914.

Whoa, you're right - I didn't need a calendar!
 
Originally posted by M5Power
The first airplane flight, courtesy of the state of Ohio, the true birthplace of aviation, took place on December 17, 1903. World War II began for the US on December 7, 1941. Man landed on the moon on 31 July, 1969. World War I began in August 1914.

Whoa, you're right - I didn't need a calendar!

Actually, the first airplane flight was in New Zealand, I'll dig up the article if I get around to it. I think it was in a Popular Mechanics article, or maybe I read it on some news site like the BBC....

What if I just say it's old, and that it's older than 6k years, but we don't know too well because Carbon Dating isn't as exact as we used to think it was?
 
Originally posted by rjensen11
Actually, the first airplane flight was in New Zealand, I'll dig up the article if I get around to it. I think it was in a Popular Mechanics article, or maybe I read it on some news site like the BBC....


ROLL AND EYES!

You revisionist historians!

The Americans were first! It says so on Ohio's license plate! North Carolina's too! And their quarters! That makes them right! The damn New Zealanders are just lying to try and make already poor relations between me and Cobraboy even worse.
 
yup who knows dinosaurs might of flown too but they didnt record it so it dont count.... bottom line americans win
 
Originally posted by M5Power
ROLL AND EYES!

You revisionist historians!

The Americans were first! It says so on Ohio's license plate! North Carolina's too! And their quarters! That makes them right! The damn New Zealanders are just lying to try and make already poor relations between me and Cobraboy even worse.

:D

I've got an peice of wood carved into the shape of an egg that is supposedly 10,000 years old or something.

I'll go take a piccie.
 
Here we are.

I think it was carbon dated, not sure, got it Jan last year.
 

Attachments

  • eggy.jpg
    eggy.jpg
    35.4 KB · Views: 90
Originally posted by Squid
yup who knows dinosaurs might of flown too but they didnt record it so it dont count.... bottom line americans win

Um... several dinosaurs did fly. We're going for the first manned flight, here.
 
Back