The BMW History : It was fifty years ago. Today...

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From my point of view BMW is not as sporty anymore as they were. Only the M Models have nowadays a limited-slip-differential. The E36 you could buy it at least as an extra...
And I drive an E46 325i... Good car but on wet surfaces or snow it would be nice to have the LSD.

Aaaaaye.. I agree that they don't look as sporty as before. The reason is, I actually don't know why but mainly it's because of the designers itself. Have you seen the new Z4?? It's gorgeous!!

Anyways, I'm not sure if there are LSD in a normal BMW cars nowadays but in M cars, I think yes. Since you own a BMW, then you should know more and yes on wet surface or snow, you really need to have the LSD to prevent wheelspin.
 
Sadly all "normal" BMWs don´t have LSDs nowadays. Only "M"s have it nowadays. SADLY...
 
Sadly all "normal" BMWs don´t have LSDs nowadays. Only "M"s have it nowadays. SADLY...

Oooowkey that's sad... But I believe BMW must have done something to prevent the wheelspin.
 
Also you can have BMW in manual but the reason why they fit in Flappy Paddle, 8-Gears etc. is because, they don't want to sacrifice perfromance and fuel efficiency. You have fun and true driver feeling through traditional manual but you lost the perfromance. You have Flappy Paddle and 8-Speed because you want performance but you have to sacrifice the fun but I have to say, eventhough I'm not driving yet but it's fun but not as much fun as playing around with the clutch and the gearstick, heel and toe but still there is some fun.[/COLOR]
Wait a second, says who?

I've had the pleasure of driving the 335i in both transmissions, and from my own personal view, the car isn't any less of a performer. It's still very fun to get on the highway, downshift with the paddles, and zoom away. BMW's problem is that the paddle shifters did the samething. If you were on the gas they both shifted up, & shifted down if you were on the brake. I don't know where BMW got that idea, or if they got it out of their system, but it was annoying.
 
Based on some people who says that Paddle-Shifting is just for noob shifter and it's bloody boring etc... Actually I pointed that to some of them who think that Paddle-Shifting is boring. Though I disagree with that. COMPLETELY... But I also did say that there are still some fun even without having to heel and toe, clutch etc.

In my opinion, I like Paddle-Shifting more for some reason. I didn't knew that problem but I guess that is due to prevent any over-rev or maybe to avoid stalling the engine when driving slow at high gear??
 
Based on some people who says that Paddle-Shifting is just for noob shifter and it's bloody boring etc... Actually I pointed that to some of them who think that Paddle-Shifting is boring. Though I disagree with that. COMPLETELY... But I also did say that there are still some fun even without having to heel and toe, clutch etc.

In my opinion, I like Paddle-Shifting more for some reason. I didn't knew that problem but I guess that is due to prevent any over-rev or maybe to avoid stalling the engine when driving slow at high gear??
Anybody who says Paddle-Shifting is noob-shifting is a dumbass. Unless they really want to tell a large majority of motorsport drivers that they're noobs.
 
Anybody who says Paddle-Shifting is noob-shifting is a dumbass. Unless they really want to tell a large majority of motorsport drivers that they're noobs.
:lol: Even in my complete abhorence to Paddle-shifting I wouldn't go that far. HOWEVER: It does turn an absolute moron into a superstar the easiest. Think about it: Even if he missed the shift for about a second or so, either the car's computer will pick it up and shift for self-preservation, or he remembers to hit the button, the shift happens .03 a second later, and he's back in it. It takes less skill to go as fast, which is something I have no respect for. :grumpy:


I just think that if I'm going to press pedals and buttons, I'll save the gas and use a Logitec Wheel. ;)



Cheers,
Jetboy
 
Oooowkey that's sad... But I believe BMW must have done something to prevent the wheelspin.

They apply brakes to the spinning wheel, which sends torque to the side of the axle which hopefully has grip. It will even cut engine power if it needs to. It is a part of DSC called DTC, which stands for dynamic traction control.

The entire system is tuned for safety and stability rather than putting power down cleanly.

It is not as nearly as good as a real LSD in practice. For performance driving, at any rate. It works pretty well for 98% of street driving.


M
 
:lol: Even in my complete abhorence to Paddle-shifting I wouldn't go that far. HOWEVER: It does turn an absolute moron into a superstar the easiest. Think about it: Even if he missed the shift for about a second or so, either the car's computer will pick it up and shift for self-preservation, or he remembers to hit the button, the shift happens .03 a second later, and he's back in it. It takes less skill to go as fast, which is something I have no respect for. :grumpy:


I just think that if I'm going to press pedals and buttons, I'll save the gas and use a Logitec Wheel. ;)



Cheers,
Jetboy
Not necessarily. The only thing it does is shift for the driver easier. The driver still has to watch his downshifts & gear when on the track.

Trust me, just because you have paddle shifters doesn't mean you suddenly become a better driver....
 
A paddle shifter makes it easier to get in gear, but all it does on track is save you a few tenths here and there... it won't turn the car for you, it won't pick the right gear for you (sometimes, in fact, a flappy paddle system will balk when you ask it to do something it doesn't want to do... causing you to lose time) and it won't brake for you. It makes a good driver better, but it won't make a moron anything more than a moron who doesn't miss shifts.

-

The X-Drive BMWs have something better than an LSD. Dynamic Performance Control... computer-controlled traction juggling differentials which act both front-to-rear and side-to-side, and work even under deceleration (sort of like a 2-way LSD, but not)... quite similar to a Nissan GT-R or a Mitsubishi EVO.

Bloody brilliant system. Shame it's attached only to their two-ton SUVs and not to something like... say... a 335xi.

One can only hope... :lol:
 
early Miata's (well they had A/C),

Not in the UK they didn't ;)

I have to be honest here. The run flat tyres is the BIGGEST mistake that BMW have done in years. It's a great idea but guess what, they also tuned the suspension to accomodate the RFL. That's what made the cars soo harsh and soo uncomfortable. However, you can choose an option to not having yours in RFL. I've heard a lot of bad story about the RFL through the concumers and I have to say the idea is good but the answer is a mess.

Many magazines recommend going for the non-Sport models of BMWs like the SE, simply because they lose little in day-to-day handling, but the ride (although still bad) isn't anywhere near as bad as the Sport models. Ironic also that the M-Spec cars don't have run-flats, and yet ride better than some of the base models...

As the previous owner of a '96 Miata M as well as numerous BMWs, I can't agree with you. I also thought the steering in our Miata was not anything special. In fact, it was quite leaden compared to the rest of the controls. My E36 M3s gave you a *much* better idea of what the front tires were doing-- it wasn't even close.

It very much depends on the model, I reckon. I've driven... three Mk1 MX-5s now, and four BMWs, all of which were E36 Compacts. The best steering of all of them was the top-spec 318ti Sport that I drove, which had wider tyres and sport suspension settings. The weighting and feel were perfect. The MX-5s are all about the same as the other Compacts I drove for feel, and the Mazda has slightly lighter steering than the BMWs seem to, though this could be something to do with weighing 200-300kg (or more...) less.

From what I've gathered from trawling the internet, the Mazda is at it's best on the standard-size 14" wheels and 185/60 R14 tyres. Mine wears 195/50 R15s and I'm wanting to change back to standard ones, even if it sacrifices a little grip. What it will do is reduce this:

What the Miata has is a lot of NVH. While some of it certainly connects the driver with the car, I wouldn't consider that all "feel".

...which 95% of the time will be more beneficial.

The MX5's steering definitely improves at speed though. When you put a bit of load on the tyres it comes alive. Mine feels a little dead at low speeds and I suspect that's down to the non-standard wheels and tyres. In this respect, the standard BMWs I've driven have been better when you aren't pushing them.

If you compare like for like though (i.e. an earlier MX-5 to an early Z3, say) the Mazda seems to be better on the "feel" side of things if you go by virtually any review out there. I've not sampled a Z3 myself to determine whether this is the case, though had I had the money, a Z3 would have been high on my shopping list.
 
^That. It takes a while and hard driving to discover the meat in the Miata's steering... and, yes, bigger wheels and tires will ruin it... since it was tuned to work with the base 14" stuff... actually... wider and grippier tires will ruin the "feel" of any steering system, though lower profile tires help to take the "squish" out of it.
 
It very much depends on the model, I reckon. I've driven... three Mk1 MX-5s now, and four BMWs, all of which were E36 Compacts. The best steering of all of them was the top-spec 318ti Sport that I drove, which had wider tyres and sport suspension settings. The weighting and feel were perfect. The MX-5s are all about the same as the other Compacts I drove for feel, and the Mazda has slightly lighter steering than the BMWs seem to, though this could be something to do with weighing 200-300kg (or more...) less.

Yes, the exact model BMW vs. exact model Miata would certainly make it more complicated. But let's not lose the context my original remark was in response to: the notion that all Miatas have better "feel" than most BMWs. That simply hasn't been my experience and I've pretty much driven all of them, with a few exceptions.

Here in the states, we got a model called the Miata R, which was available from '94 on. The car had Bilstein sport shocks, an LSD and no power steering. I had one drive in the car, which belong to a friend and was prepped for autocross and was also riding on R comp tires. It had *excellent* steering. Much better than the power assist racks. But alas the vast majority of Miatas out there are not Rs, and the lack of power steering is likely a big turn off for, um, certain buyers.

Would I put a '94 Miata R above an E36 M3? Honestly, I'm not sure. It was only 1 drive and it was on cold R-comps and more than 10 years ago.

I've driven a 318ti, but it was not a Sport. It's steering and handling in general was underwhelming. The E36 Compact had the same front end as other E36s. Which is to say very good and certainly better than it's direct competition, but not stellar.

The M3, on the other hand, had it's own steering rack(s), lower control arms, bushings, as well the typical spring and shock upgrades. The sway bars were also attached to the strut on the M3, versus the lower control arm as on non-Ms. It's basically a different animal --much sharper, precise and direct than non-Ms, even those with the sport package. The E36 M3 was considered for years here in the US as a steering and handling benchmark.


From what I've gathered from trawling the internet, the Mazda is at it's best on the standard-size 14" wheels and 185/60 R14 tyres. Mine wears 195/50 R15s and I'm wanting to change back to standard ones, even if it sacrifices a little grip. What it will do is reduce this:

Fair enough; our car had 15 inchers with the same rolling stock as you have. But I think even the "base" wheels/tire combo car was not as good as the M3.


...which 95% of the time will be more beneficial.

Could you rephrase this comment a little? I'm not sure if you mean that 95% of NVH is beneficial?

The MX5's steering definitely improves at speed though.

It does get better at speed. And it loads up in a natural way. But I never thought it had the level of granularity and detail that my M3 rack had.

If you compare like for like though (i.e. an earlier MX-5 to an early Z3, say) the Mazda seems to be better on the "feel" side of things if you go by virtually any review out there. I've not sampled a Z3 myself to determine whether this is the case, though had I had the money, a Z3 would have been high on my shopping list.

Well, if I were to compare our '96 Miata 1.8 to a '96 Z3 1.8 and try to keep the comparison to steering alone, I would probably side with the Miata. If I were to compare the entire spectrum of handling, then I would definately go with the Miata. I think the 1.8 Z3 is very ho-hum dynamics wise.

I think you made a much better choice with the Miata 👍 I know you like the look of Z3, but honestly the car was never up to the task of carrying the "Ultimate Driving Machine" moniker.

Does the Miata have better "feel" than the Z3? Yes, probably because it doesn't feel underpowered and over-chassied.

But again, please keep my comment in context --comparing the Miata to the runt of BMW's litter isn't really what I had in mind when I posted my reply. And as I expounded on earlier, "feel" is one of those very subjective things that very few people seem to agree on.

I do think that a lot of what many people consider "feel" is simply NVH. I think one of the things BMW does very well is filter out the unimportant stuff, while leaving in the things I really want.


M
 
MSpec
My definition of "feel" is more than just the steering feel. That's a large part.

My definition also extends to how it sounds, how is responds, how tactile it is, the feedback you get from brakes, chassis, tires, steering, engine. The sense of total involvement. The use of all the senses.

I want my car to involve all my senses. To delight my whole being. To please my inner child. My 02s do that. And that only proves i'm easy.

New cars, and especially luxury cars, have too much insulation; from the noise, the street, the engine, the brakes, the suspension etc.

Old cars, well, it's you and them. No interface between you and the steering. You brake, and YOU are the one who is braking, not some computer deciding how much brake pressure to apply to which wheel. You accelerate, and your action directly affects the carb/ injection. In your new car, the computer decides how much acceleration you want.
 
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@ ///M-Spec - I'm going to keep my reply here just for simplicity, though I have replied in your new thread too.

Here in the states, we got a model called the Miata R, which was available from '94 on. The car had Bilstein sport shocks, an LSD and no power steering. I had one drive in the car, which belong to a friend and was prepped for autocross and was also riding on R comp tires. It had *excellent* steering. Much better than the power assist racks. But alas the vast majority of Miatas out there are not Rs, and the lack of power steering is likely a big turn off for, um, certain buyers.

I reckon many non power-assisted racks are better than most power racks. My experience of a non-assisted MX-5 wasn't a great one - it was a stiffly-sprung, slick-tyred race version on a damp track. The rack felt too heavy to throw the car around with confidence, and not quick enough to deal with mistakes effectively. Perhaps a road car on the 14" wheels would be more pleasant without power assistance than the race car, but I'm glad I have the power-assisted version, which still has brilliant feel.

I've driven a 318ti, but it was not a Sport. It's steering and handling in general was underwhelming. The E36 Compact had the same front end as other E36s. Which is to say very good and certainly better than it's direct competition, but not stellar.

I don't know too much about the Sport version but it was certainly an impressive machine. I've driven a regular 318ti, as well as two 316i Compacts, and none was even remotely on the same level as the Sport, despite being very impressive in isolation. I dunno - perhaps the Sport even has the same (/similar) rack and suspension components as the M3.

Fair enough; our car had 15 inchers with the same rolling stock as you have. But I think even the "base" wheels/tire combo car was not as good as the M3.

Really? You didn't get 14" wheels as standard on the NA Miata? I was sure even the US versions had the 14" Minilite "replicas"?

Could you rephrase this comment a little? I'm not sure if you mean that 95% of NVH is beneficial?

Sorry, I phrased that very badly indeed. What I meant was that I'm prepared to sacrifice a little grip to reduce the NVH a bit (I was referring mainly to my comment just previous to the quote). I'm not saying that NVH is beneficial, and indeed I reckon my car has a little too much of it (it's a good case for not pissing about with Mazda's own handiwork - they got it right first time and I reckon that messing about with wheel sizes, suspension etc isn't going to work 99% of the time).

It does get better at speed. And it loads up in a natural way. But I never thought it had the level of granularity and detail that my M3 rack had.

I've not driven an M3 (unfortunately) so I'm unable to compare. All I can say is that with a bit of load through the chassis the steering gets pretty damn good...

I do think that a lot of what many people consider "feel" is simply NVH. I think one of the things BMW does very well is filter out the unimportant stuff, while leaving in the things I really want.

I'd tend to agree 👍 But I certainly don't regret picking the Mazda :sly:
 
It's good to know the history of BMW. The thing between Mazda and BMW as far as I know, the Eunos Roadster and the Z3 are great cars. Both can have a good comparison. I like Mazda too especially their rotary engines. Since now Mazda has the new MX-5 and BMW has the new Z4 came out, none of them would ever be compared. I like to get the new MX5 for track, but if I want speed, I'll just get the new Z4. My brother owns the black 2005 BMW 530i and I like the iDrive, the seats and the smooth inline-6 engine. Yeah, BMW is awesome; they don't make a lot of cars and that's a good thing. Quality is important.
 
they don't make a lot of cars

Well... they do really. In 2007 they made 1.5m vehicles worldwide (from here) and in the UK for a few years running the BMW 3-Series has outsold the Ford Mondeo.

They may be a specialised brand but they're still a volume manufacturer.
 
I believe he meant not so many models as opposed to production. ;)


Cheers,
Jetboy
 
1 series. Sedan, coupe, hatchback convertible.
3 series Sedan, coupe, wagon, convertible, AWD and 3 M variants
5 series. Sedan, wagon, AWD and M variants.
6 series. Coupe, convertible and M variant.
7 series. Short and long wheelbase, protection variant.
X3
X5
X6
Z4
Mini
Silver Ghost
Phantom.

How is that NOT a lot?
 
1 series. Sedan, coupe, hatchback convertible.
3 series Sedan, coupe, wagon, convertible, AWD and 3 M variants
5 series. Sedan, wagon, AWD and M variants.
6 series. Coupe, convertible and M variant.
7 series. Short and long wheelbase, protection variant.
X3
X5
X6
Z4
Mini
Silver Ghost
Phantom.

How is that NOT a lot?

It's not a lot actually. But sometimes we can see it's a lot... They also have the Security version of the 5er and the 7er but it's limited and only made upon request. Easy, no matter if they're AWD or convertible etc., they're still under one name and one model. Unlike Toyota or Honda which they have loads of other models.

The Silver Ghost and the Phantom are not included in the BMW cars line up. Yes BMW did owned and RR but they don't produce them. Those cars are still made by RR. Mini meanwhile, yes BMW made them. But still pretty much under Mini and they're not included in the BMW cars line up.

BMW 1 Series : Coupe, Hatchback, Convertible and M-Sport.
BMW 3 Series : Coupe, Sedan, Touring, Convertible, X-Drive, M-Sport and M3.
BMW 5 Series : Sedan, Touring, X-Drive, M-Sport and M5.
BMW 6 Series : Coupe, Convertible and M6.
BMW 7 Series : Sedan, M-Sport and Long Wheel-base.
BMW X Series : X1, X3, X5, X6, X5M and X6M.
BMW Z Series : Z4 and Z4 S-Drive including M-Sport.

That's all...
 
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X3 is not 7 series based. Completely separate line.

Rolls Royce Silver Ghost shares its platform with the 7 series.

And I forgot that abortion, the grand touring or whatever its called.
 
X3 is not 7 series based. Completely separate line.

Rolls Royce Silver Ghost shares its platform with the 7 series.

And I forgot that abortion, the grand touring or whatever its called.

Sorry I don't get what you mean by ''X3 is not 7 Series based''. If you meant by why I put it ''BMW X Series'' is because I don't want them to look confusing and long. Like what you did before by listing X3,5,6 all the way down. If I am not mistaken, they also called it the X Series. I also forgot to mention about your previous post that there are no 1 Series Sedan ;)

Well yes true that the Silver Ghost shares its platform with the 7er but, the car is still pretty much built by RR and not completely BMW. It's like Tata owns Jaguar and Land Rover. Also like the case of BMW and RR, Land Rover-Range Rover shares the engine with the Jaguar XFR. But still, Jaguar is Jaguar and Land Rover is Land Rover and they still build their cars as ever before.

Did you mean the 5GT?? Yes I also forgot to mention it up there.
 
It wasn't supposed to be an exhaustive list, but rather a list of the individual car lines, and some of the variants, that BMW makes. In contrast to the "they don't make a lot of models" comment.

The current X5 is based on the 7 series platform, unlike the earlier one that was based on the 5 series. The X6 is based on it, but is its own series. The X3 is based on the 3 series, as is the X1.
The Camry is the basis for the Avalon, Highlander, Sienna, Venza, and that is just the list of Toyota models. I am not going to list the Camry and it's derivatives as one model. For what it's worth, the wagon, coupes, station wagons, and convertibles have their own designation but I list them as the same.
Each one is separate and distinct.

20% of the Ghost parts are borrowed from the 7 series.

And I am well familiar with the concept of one car company owning another. I ascribe all brands that a company may own to the parent group. Rolls Royce Motorcars may be its own serapate entity but is a subsidiary of BMW and BMW is the topic of discussion. If we were talking ROlls Royce only, I probably wouldn't have mentioned BMW
 
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It wasn't supposed to be an exhaustive list, but rather a list of the individual car lines, and some of the variants, that BMW makes. In contrast to the "they don't make a lot of models" comment.

The current X5 is based on the 7 series platform, unlike the earlier one that was based on the 5 series. The X6 is based on it, but is its own series. The X3 is based on the 3 series, as is the X1.
The Camry is the basis for the Avalon, Highlander, Sienna, Venza, and that is just the list of Toyota models. I am not going to list the Camry and it's derivatives as one model. For what it's worth, the wagon, coupes, station wagons, and convertibles have their own designation but I list them as the same.
Each one is separate and distinct.

20% of the parts are borrowed from the 7 series.

Hmmm... Owkey I didn't knew the new X5 is based on the 7er platform and also the X3 and the X1 based on the 3er platform. Extra info for me ;)👍

Anyways, 20% is quite an amount but, it's still not a BMW car. According to Wikipedia, BMW completely owns and produces the MINI brand (as we may know), and is a parent company of the Rolls-Royce Motor Cars. It is a subsidiary of the BMW Group (as you already know and stated up there). So with that enough said it's not a completely BMW made car and thus wasn't suppose to be claimed that BMW made RR cars (in your previous list) ;)
 
BMW 1 Series : Coupe, Hatchback, Convertible and M-Sport.
BMW 3 Series : Coupe, Sedan, Touring, Convertible, X-Drive, M-Sport and M3.
BMW 5 Series : Sedan, Touring, X-Drive, M-Sport and M5.
BMW 6 Series : Coupe, Convertible and M6.
BMW 7 Series : Sedan, M-Sport and Long Wheel-base.
BMW X Series : X1, X3, X5, X6, X5M and X6M.
BMW Z Series : Z4 and Z4 S-Drive including M-Sport.

That's all...

More like:

BMW 1-Series
BMW 3-Series
BMW 5-Series
BMW 5-GT
BMW 6-Series
BMW 7-Series
BMW X1... series... shudders.
BMW X3 Series
BMW X5 Series
BMW X6 Series
(the X's are on different platforms, and have many major chassis differences. Heck, even the X5 and X6 have different wheelbases and track widths...)
BMW Z4 Series (if the Z8 were out, it would be a completely separate series).
BMW F Series - twin cylinder bikes
BMW G Series - thumpers
BMW R Series - boxer bikes
BMW K Series - four cylinder bikes
BMW Bicycles...

Okay, so the last four are Motorad, and the bicycle is more of a marketing gimmick... but... :lol:

I'd say they make a hell of a lot of models, fill a hell of a lot of sub-sub-sub-niches (not as badly as Mercedes, but getting close) and sell a heck of a lot of cars.

The only consumer vehicles that BMW doesn't make are vans and MPVs. Supposedly because vans can't be sporty. Didn't stop them from adding jump seats to the X5 to make it a 7-seater, though... :dopey:

You could argue that Mazda is more bespoke based on the number of unique models they sell. Currently, they have:
Mazda2
Mazda3
Mazda5 - single body style only
Mazda6
MX-5 - single body style (minimal structural differences between PRHT and regular roadster)
CX-7 - single body style
CX-9 - single body style
RX-8 - single body style and engine choice
B-series pickups.
 
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BMW owns and operates both Rolls Royce and MINI. There isn't a difference between them. Both existed before BMW bought them. BMW bought both operations from the previous owners.

In fact, BMW resurrected the Rolls Royce brand because when Vickers sold Rolls and Bentley to Volkswagen, they retained the right to the Rolls name, which was sold instead to BMW, except they couldn't use those rights for a few years. VW, very intelligently, didn't put any resources into a brand they wouldn't own in a few years and basically let it rot on the vine, while making and marketing the Bentley brand.
The day BMW had rights to the Rolls Royce name, they released the Phantom. They had already been working on it for a few years.

If you were talking about a situation where one company only partly owns another, like Ford and Mazda, then I would say you are right. BMW completely owns Rolls Royce. Their production counts as BMWs.
 
What Jetboy said is what I really meant. BMW doesn't produce a lot of cars as Mazda and Chrysler do. Compared the three with Toyota, Toyota made almost 10 million production vehicles today and their car interiors are really flimsy as well as bad. My brother drove the Scion tC and the Toyota Tacoma Regular Cab before; their Chinese quality interior parts easily come off. I like BMW the best, it's an ultimate driving machine.

@TVC
Blasphemy! Honda is much overrated compared to BMW. It is because of the NSX/S2000 fame.
 
Okay, so the last four are Motorad, and the bicycle is more of a marketing gimmick... but... :lol:

Yeah they made bikes. Also times ago, they also made the Street Carver which is a Skate Board like but is faster, and... crazier also sometimes, useless :lol:. Anyways, I didn't pointed out the Motorrad (I also haven't familiarise myself with the Motorrad yet) since OneEyedPimp20 only stated ''They don't make a lot of cars''.

neanderthal
Their production counts as BMWs.

Owkey then. Just let the facts say it all.

TVC
BMW is overrated.

Do you have anything better to say other than BMW is overrated?? Try to question some of the people around you ''Do you know BMW M5, M6 and the legendary M1??'' and hear what they have to say because some of them, don't know those cars. Some other Japanese brands like Mitsubishi, Honda, Toyota are even more overrated. Now for this time, try to question them ''Do you know Toyota Supra, NSX, S2000, RX7/8, Evo, etc.??'' The will answer that they know some. IMO, Those cars are even more overrated.
 
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