The Carmagedonn Thread: FCA and "Consolidation"

  • Thread starter Thread starter YSSMAN
  • 836 comments
  • 74,156 views
Michael Scott Paper company?

Seriously, do the big three need THAT much paper...



Or am I too much of a geek.

Okay, things really getting interesting. I think we know that Chrysler is to become a division of FIAT, that much was a given. However, all this talk of them taking bits of GM...well, it's interesting to say the least.

If they take any of GM, I don't see them holding onto them long, save for, perhaps, the Swedes. Although, I'd like to see Saab Aircraft or even Volvo take up that automaker. Still, I could see Saab and Alfa Romeo being a good fit...and NOT in the Richard Hammond's Dual-ended monstrosity sense.

Opel...Perhaps not. Bargain basement German Engineering....really doesn't fit. Then again, they're getting German Leftovers from Chrysler, so, what the hell?

But GM's US Mainstream divisions, like Chevrolet and Cadillac? What's to happen to them? Where will hot-rodders get their engines if there's no more Small Block Chevys?
 
Jim Prower
But GM's US Mainstream divisions, like Chevrolet and Cadillac? What's to happen to them?
Click to expand...

Nothing.

Plans are already in place that if GM ends up declaring bankruptcy in the summer, it will be a tiered practice that will allow their sustainable portions of the business to remain in-tact and under the control of GM altogether. In this process, this is likely where we'd see the "bad" GM get cut off; Saturn (if it isn't sold), possibly GMC, HUMMER (if it isn't sold), Saab (if it isn't sold), and possibly Pontiac. Otherwise, there will be no major effect taking place with Chevrolet, Buick and Cadillac as we know it.

The Opel ordeal, as far as I can tell, is GM ridding itself of extra debt. Not that Opel doesn't make money, it actually makes a lot, but the terrible economy is really wearing it down, and I think the GM NA guys are beginning to wonder why they should continue to deal with it. However, I don't exactly support that thought process. What concerns me is that it is becoming increasingly likely that GM will be "giving away" Opel if they get a respectable offer. Likely less than $1B in cash, presumably a continued (but limited) partnership with the company, but otherwise splitzies.

But if Opel is gone, what does that say about Vauxhall? Holden? Hell, even Buick? Who and where does overall product development for global models get shifted? To GM-Daewoo in Korea? Or do the people in Detroit start designing things again? If the entire GM Europe operation essentially gets "sold off" that easily, it completely alters the way that GM must be thinking about their business model globally. It makes me wonder if forces are at work which will be focusing GM attention on Asia and the Americas only, leaving Europe to be a battle between Toyota, Volkswagen and FIAT.

I dunno. I guess in my opinion, I see Opel as a critical piece in the sustainability of the company in general. Much like Chevrolet, the name is iconic, and it operates like the "everyman" brand it should be throughout Europe. But perhaps GM is silly enough to believe that Chevrolet can carry its own weight selling GM-Daewoo products based on (former) Opel architectures in Europe... Eliminating overlap once more in a critical market.

I guess in my mind, its always been a Chevrolet - Opel/Vauxhall - Holden game. Removing a critical third pillar just doesn't seem like a good idea.
 
Last edited:
Leonidae: you know dang well that GM is about the only thing we have left in the US that actually makes anything, now. I'm afraid if we lose our remaining manufactures, we might hit an actuall depression that'd make the original look like a 5 cent gas hike!

I also don't want stuck with nothing but boring old fords, either. and, guys...GET RID OF that Gilette grille!

I think Fiat is forgetting that older americans will shy away from them, big time. Europe got out of the american automotive market for more than just too much Japanese competition...they sent us REAL crap...the stuff intended for their former colonies (and I say this to britan, as well...you should have invested in quality for more than bloody Rolls-Royce, even at home!!)

I think they forget over on the Continent that americans remember EVERYTHING, and stay stuck in that frame of mind. they also forgot the big swell of "buy American" when the japanese started swarming in.

American vehicles may be turning to crap, but they're OUR crap
 
Sniffs
Leonidae: you know dang well that GM is about the only thing we have left in the US that actually makes anything, now. I'm afraid if we lose our remaining manufactures, we might hit an actuall depression that'd make the original look like a 5 cent gas hike!
Click to expand...

Except maybe Honda, Toyota and Nissan who all make quite a few cars here...and that should be disgraceful but they provide Americans with jobs so I don't really care.
 
Sniffs
(and I say this to britan, as well...you should have invested in quality for more than bloody Rolls-Royce, even at home!!)

...

American vehicles may be turning to crap, but they're OUR crap
Click to expand...

Take heed - we don't have a car industry anymore because of that attitude.
 
Joey: there's still the "you furriners" attitude that america carries (at least, the part that isn't in the public eye). this is why I mentioned the "buy American" bit earlier *rolls eyes*

Roo: yes, and you'd think we'd learn from that mistake, wouldn't you? must be an Anglo-Saxon thing :P let's hope people like President Obama change that attitude around, but without diluting the rest of america's character to the point that it only survives in places like Australia (with apologies to down under for over-contamination)
 
Wow, Sniffs, u have to relax a bit. I know this concerns a lot of people working there, but you don't have to crap on every car Manufacturer that sells cars in USA. U could say the same thing that GM and Chrysler should remove their crap out of USA, because you like it so much...Jeez
 
Appie: actually, I think it would be a brainy idea to pull some things out of Europe altogether...like the Chrysler products I keep reading complaints about. I think they have, already. what I HAVE been saying is that non-luxury European Marquis, with the exception of Volks, are perceived as waste matter because of America's past experiences with extremely poor quality imports from europe that don't have some sort of flying propeller type symbol on them. if we'd had the likes of the current Goshen-run crops of Renaults, they'd still be here, giving "Japan, Inc" a run for their money.

I don't know how to put what I'm saying simply enough for anybody to get (understand), and that includes native english speakers. if I knew more latin-based languages, it'd be so much simpler...



and there's only one manufacturer I don't Crap on...Volkswagen.
 
Even though its one of the brands out there that need to be crapped on the most? I'm sorry, but through experience i've learned to stay away from that brand thanks to the build quality and reliability. I even talked a friend out of buying one when I found out he was considering a VW while car shopping. I wasn't the only bird chirping in his ear either which means i'm not alone in my opinions.
 
Joey D
Except maybe Honda, Toyota and Nissan who all make quite a few cars here...and that should be disgraceful but they provide Americans with jobs so I don't really care.
Click to expand...

Hey, if we're lucky, a GM and Chrysler bankruptcy means that the UAW's legitimacy is pushed to the brink... And instead, GM and Chrysler may adapt the Toyota/Honda/Nissan/BMW/Mercedes/Hyundai mentality of a "fair wage" and "decent benefits" all at once.

What's better? Having a job? Or not having one at all?
 
mabey we should offer Chrysler to Toyota? after all, they created the FJ from seizing a Jeep while invading Malaysia during WW2 (unfortunately, they grabbed a Bantam made one :P )

SRV: the only trouble we had was with the nearly universal case of "european Rot" that seems to plague those vintage years. thin bodies, mabey?

I've had one of each american Big Three and two toyotas. I know where all the weak spots are. unlike some of you, I've never even SAT in a Mitsubishi, Nissan, Subaru, suzuki, ANY european besides a Golf I, Hundai/Kia or Daewoo clone. Most of Western Europe was long gone from the market by the time i was 10, the american independants died 5 years later, and Japan was still considered a Joke. don't even ASK about the tiny early Hyundais. these vehicles are now so dang expensive (even junk like the Fiat Stradas they sent over here), I can't even look at them.

I can lust after an SL all I want, or a few of the Beamers, but they're so prohibitivly expensive as rust-piles for the name alone, I'd have to settle for a beat up old Chevy C/K...and if GM and CC die outright, that means no parts, no repairs, no nothing...and the remaining cheapies soar into the price stratosphere.

what I'm afraid of is that the Automobile will turn back into the super rich toy it originally started out as...and you guys will have to start swerving around piles of horseapples, dodging horse drawn vehicles, etc...just like a Century Ago!
 
obama.gif
 
Wow, a big news day today, I'll get to that in a moment. Seeing as how the news is driving out more quickly like it did back in the fall, I'm going to put this back in the "Auto News" section as it really has become less of a discussion of (global) bailouts, and more about who is closing, and what is being changed to remain viable in the future. Thank you for the support in the "Cars in General" section!

=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=

In case you hadn't heard:

Saturn_Pontiac_Dead.jpg


GM Kills Pontiac, Shutters Plants, Cuts Thousands of Jobs

Bad news for the "Excitement" folks, as well as the Aussies down under. (See Pontiac thread for more coverage)

Saturn to Close Up Shop by 2010, HUMMER Out by End of 2009

Even more bad news for franchise folks. It had been said that Saturn may last until 2012, but times are tough, and apparently GM needs to act fast to remain viable. Let's see if someone buys the "Different" brand.

=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=

http://www.blogcdn.com/www.autoblog.com/media/2009/01/chry_fiat_580.jpg

Chrysler and the UAW Reach Agreement on Labor, FIAT Could Move In for Purchase Soon

I suppose its really the only "good" Carmagedon news of the day. Lets hope this one works.
 
so....What we're seeing here is that the UAW is gonna leave their retirees behind in order to make sure the current workers stay paid?

or did I misread that?
 
I think its a matter of having some benefits versus none at all. Either way, it is eroding the UAW's strength almost completely. From my point of view, I still think that even if FIAT walked in with Chrysler offering $15 an hour jobs with no benefits, the line would go for miles to get in there. We need jobs, srsly.
 
I wouldn't be that amazed if such a hard line would be what Fiat will do. Its not like there is a shortage of eligible workers in the area.
 
Where is Mercedes fit in with the Chrysler Co. anymore,do'es this mean that if Fiat which is partof Ferrari takes over Chrysler/Mercedes that in a round about way Mercedes and Ferrari will be "inlaws" WOW.
 
Diamler gave up their rule in the company, what, two or three years ago now? Currently, Chrysler is operated by Cerberus Capital Management, while Diamler continues to hold a 20% share in the company... A share that some have argued is worth nothing, a likely reason why Diamler has been trying to offload it completely.

Although Ferrari is under the umbrella of FIAT, there is little "sharing" between it and the more "mainstream" brands, a trend that would be likely to continue after purchase of Chrysler. If anything, this is FIAT's way of having a legitimate way to bring their FIAT and Alfa-Romeo branded products into the US without having to build a new dealer network, or unsuccessfully ride on the Maseratti lineup that already exists.
 
Basically. Throw the Nissan contracts with Chrysler in there, and the possibility of FIAT buying Opel/Vauxhall from GM... Yeah, it gets exponentially messy.
 
They haven't said anything to the contrary, but, I find it doubtful, at least on Chrysler's recieving end. Nissan'll probably still get the Ram.
 
I haven't heard. I was under the impression that the Ram --> Titan program was still on, but that the Tiida --> Versa --> Caliber (?) deal was off. I have no idea, and frankly, I think the entire thing should be scrapped.
 
Its not like Chrysler was getting the better of that deal even before the manufacturer of the worlds best small cars offered to buy them.
I still want to know how Nissan suckered them into doing it.
 

Latest Posts

Back