The Damage Thread - Best Buy Demo, Now Thats More Like It!

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Im not saying anyone suggested that, but certainly a Genious can spell GENIUS.

Im done with you. Your GENIOUS, and the rhetoric that spills from you GENIOUS mind is mind numbing.

Spelling and grammar police has catched me! :dopey:





But that is actually pretty embarrassing :rolleyes:
 
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All you can do is hope the page itself is wrong because the translation is not (which is what I'm doing until TGS).

Or you can realize that even in as accurate a translation as you can get, sometimes ambiguity steps in necessitating a little common sense and background knowledge to asses what the most likely meaning really is. Heck, ambiguity even steps in without translation.

I heard the other day on the radio, top story:

DOCTOR HELPS DOG BITE VICTIM

and I thought to myself, what kind of ****ed up doctor helps a dog bite his victim? :P

Yeah serversurfer, you must be very intelligent to follow the guy who's telling you that 2+2=5

Que?:confused:
 
Rhetoric should be performed by a person that is able to spell, at least.

Plato would have killed himself if he heard you, or Simple minded Sim, perform :lol:

I c u'ins L8r
 
Or you can realize that even in as accurate a translation as you can get, sometimes ambiguity steps in. Heck, even ambiguity steps in without translation.

Que?:confused:

Then read Angela's translation and tell me where do you think it's ambiguous and I'll try to clarify it to you. If you implied that she is the one who misinterpreted the source prior to translating it I can assure you those two sentences I translated (the most controversial ones) have no room for ambiguity at all. You can see it for yourself in my explanations. I'm not hiding anything. Also, I highly doubt an experienced translator could screw up in such a simple thing as ambiguity.

And about that "2+2=5" I meant that translations can be in fact accurate and when you told him not to trust them you were talking bull****, regardless of whether you knew you were or not.
 
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Then read Angela's translation and tell me where do you think it's ambiguous and I'll try to clarify it to you.

Well here is apparently part of the translation

-1000 makes/models
-170 premium models (with interiors and damage support)
-830 standard models (compatible models taken from GT4)
Translators Note: I interpret this as having 170 models with interiors and damage, and 830 models that are essentially upscaled GT4 models, whether those cars were in GT4 or not.

Courses

-More than 20 courses, and more than 60 layouts.
Translators Note: That’s literally what it says. I interpret that as 20 tracks (Suzuka/Fuji/Grand Valley/etc.) and 60 versions of those tracks (Suzuka East/West, Fuji F/GT).


Note both of them are literal translations but need interperatation. This means that there is somme abiguity, and the author is providing what she feels is the most likely meaning.

For instance compatible models taken from GT4, she says she thinks 830 models are upscaled GT4 models whether they were in GT4 or not... I am not sure how a car model can be an upscaled GT4 model if it wasn't in GT4, but I take it as 830 standard models, if one from GT4 could be imported and updated, it was, if not it was built from scratch. Perhaps some models form GT4 were actually upscaled models from a previous GT and only the ones made from scratch for GT4 are compatible for bringing into GT5? Who knows... some ambiguity.

And about that "2+2=5" I meant that translations can be in fact accurate and when you told him not to trust them you were talking bull****, regardless of whether you knew you were or not.

I didn't tell him not to trust them, I told him to apply some common sense, logic and oustide knowledge when figuring out what they mean.

Example:

He states that he thinks the fully modeled cockpit means that if a door were to swing open from damage on a car, then if it was a fully modeled cockpit you could look out the open door and see the road, however in a non premium car, you would just still see a closed door from the inside car view.

Does that make sense? From a coding point no. From a continuity of experinece point of view no. Common sense tells you that if that is what you take from the translation, likely something is amiss.

So I suggest applying some kind of common sense rather than just going of what it says literrally therefore must mean. When the literral interperatation does not make sense, you must entertain the possiblilty of ambiuity being the culprit.

Another example, he kept saying we are pulling 170 number out of our asses and no such thing has been said or that no one had specified some cars wouldn't have damage. I told him that you need to use outside knowledge (such as having seen KYs comments on such) and not just rely on the fact that it's not in the translation therefore it doesn't count.

You would want to look back a few pages to see the part I was referring to mostly, in the last 2 or 3 pages he has drastically changed his temperment and point of view.

https://www.gtplanet.net/forum/showthread.php?t=117007&page=65
 
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Well here is apparently part of the translation

-1000 makes/models
-170 premium models (with interiors and damage support)
-830 standard models (compatible models taken from GT4)
Translators Note: I interpret this as having 170 models with interiors and damage, and 830 models that are essentially upscaled GT4 models, whether those cars were in GT4 or not.

Courses

-More than 20 courses, and more than 60 layouts.
Translators Note: That’s literally what it says. I interpret that as 20 tracks (Suzuka/Fuji/Grand Valley/etc.) and 60 versions of those tracks (Suzuka East/West, Fuji F/GT).


Note both of them are literal translations but need interperatation. This means that there is somme abiguity, and the author is providing what she feels is the most likely meaning.

For instance compatible models taken from GT4, she says she thinks 830 models are upscaled GT4 models whether they were in GT4 or not... I am not sure how a car model can be an upscaled GT4 model if it wasn't in GT4, but I take it as 830 standard models, if one from GT4 could be imported and updated, it was, if not it was built from scratch. Perhaps some models form GT4 were actually upscaled models from a previous GT and only the ones made from scratch for GT4 are compatible for bringing into GT5? Who knows... some ambiguity.

Then we are now talking about how to interpret the sentences and not if the translation is accurate or not. That's what it says, what you understand from it and if it's right or not is a completely different thing.

I agree it doesn't make sense to have 830 upscaled models if GT4 only have about 700 and that's why she added the "whether those cars were in GT4 or not". However that's what the page says, if you have something against it complain to the person who wrote it, not the one who translated it.

About her note on the courses line she was just saying what she understands by "course" and "layout" since this seems to have different meanings for different people somehow.

I didn't tell him not to trust them, I told him to apply some common sense, logic and oustide knowledge when figuring out what they mean.

Example:

He states that he thinks the fully modeled cockpit means that if a door were to swing open from damage on a car, then if it was a fully modeled cockpit you could look out the open door and see the road, however in a non premium car, you would just still see a closed door from the inside car view.

Does that make sense? From a coding point no. From a continuity of experinece point of view no.

So I suggest applying some kind of common sense rather than just going of what it says literrally therefore must mean. When the literral interperatation does not make sense, you must entertain the possiblilty of ambiuity being the culprit.

Another example, he kept saying we are pulling 170 number out of our asses and no such thing has been said. I told him that you need to use outside knowledge (such as having seen KYs comments on such) and not just rely on the fact that it's not in the translation therefore it doesn't count.

You would want to look back a few pages to see the part I was referring to mostly, in the last 2 or 3 pages he has drastically changed his temperment and point of view.

Well I guess I owe you an apology. However, it did looked like you were telling him not to trust the translation.
 
Since the page clearly contradicts itself, definitely has wrong info and was quickly taken down, I have some hope it's wrong in quite a few aspects and we will see different info at TGS.

However that's speculation.
 
About her note on the courses line she was just saying what she understands by "couse" and "layout" since this seems to have different meanings for different people somehow.

And that's an area where by ambiguity might come into play... what is accepted by the word "course" in one language might be slightly different in another. Perhaps in Japanese a course can apply to all tracks at a given location... I am not saying that's the case here, but I have run into plenty of that kind of thing before. I always refer to the many kinds of "snow" eskimos have. Even directly translated, something can be lost.

The problem is it's hard to spot ambiguity from only one side of the translation becaues when I read that, I know what I think it means, but that's not necessarily what it means. Subtle meanings and understandings are always lost going from a mothe tongue to a second or third.

Well I guess I owe you an apology. However, it did looked like you were telling him not to trust the translation.

I can see how it would look like that. It's the problem with forums, unless you get the whole story (which can mean a LOT of reading, especially if I am involved) things can look very skewed.

Since the page clearly contradicts itself, definitely has wrong info and was quickly taken down, I have some hope it's wrong in quite a few aspects and we will see different info at TGS.

However that's speculation.

That does bring into question why KY confirmed it was 100% accurate though...

That is exaclty the kind of reason I put logic and common sense into it. It's ALL speculation at this point, but due dilligence is to apply as many resources as possible towards your educated guesses. Not necessarily just sticking to the literal meaning.
 
You know, if we assume that Angela's translation is accurate, and also her assumption that not mentioning damage in the section on standard cars implies that standard cars don't have damage, then don't we also have to assume that the fact that it doesn't mention interior views for standard cars also implies that standard cars don't have those either? Which in turn means that GT-PSP will be better than GT5 in this regard, given that cockpit views are available for all 800 cars?

Given the fact it's pretty unlikely GT-PSP will offer features that GT5 doesn't (or at least, offers them in a more complete way), then why are we assuming that her translation and/or interpretation of that translation is the "most reasonable"?

No offense, Angela. I just don't know how we're going from, "Umm, that can't be right," to, "Yeah, that must be right."

No, and I quite see where you're coming from. In lieu of all other information I would come to the same conclusion, 170 cars with damage and cockpit and 830 that are essentially hi-res GT4 cars (no cockpit or damage).

An important part of checking a translation is going through it and checking for logical sense. I left the actual translation as vanilla as I could, hence "cars taken from GT4". However, that in itself tells us very little. So, with my experience of what a Japanese person is likely to mean by that and my knowledge of GT, driving games and current gaming trends I gave my interpretation of the meaning. Ditto with the tracks, those terms are reasonably common but it's possible that within PD they have some other sort of meaning.

Were it a serious commercial translation, I'd have rung the writer up and clarified the meanings of some things with them. As a document it's pretty good, but were I translating this for PD themselves I'd be aware that people are going to be hanging over every word so it needs to be spot on.

Basically, the translation is the best rendering I could get into English that maintains the meaning of what is in the page with the ambiguity of what's left out. I'm not about to claim that the page gives an actual clear picture of GT5, even in Japanese it raises as many questions as it answers. In short, the information given is relatively clear but is by no means complete.

Probably the best information you get is in comparatives. There are at least two classes of cars, one of which offers internals (probably cockpits) and supports damage. The second category of cars may not have either of these features, or they may simply have lesser versions of (non-visual damage, simplified cockpits...). This second class of cars is somehow derived from GT4, but how is completely unknown. It's safe to say that they're not lifted directly from GT4 as there weren't 830 cars in that game. That's about as far as I'd take actual concrete information from the page, and anything past that is informed speculation. We can make reasonable guesses based on other knowledge, but they're still only guesses.

I did do a complex breakdown of the course/layout translation here, reposted for clarity:

If you saw the actual Japanese page, the text was:

Quote:
20コース以上、60のレイアウト以上
For those not fluent in Japanese, let me run through it for you. There are two parts to this sentence which are not entirely separate, but we'll get to that in a bit.

コース is a word borrowed from English. It's simply how the Japanese spell the word "course" in their phonetic alphabet. 以上 means "more than". So we have "20 course more than". Pretty simple, and putting it into proper English grammar gives us "more than 20 courses".

In the second section, we again have 以上 meaning "more than". レイアウト is again a borrowed word from English, "layout". It's open to some interpretation what they mean by this, as it's not a common English word in that context and could mean several things. I've looked in past Polyphony literature to see what they use it to refer to in older games, but it's hard to find.
Lastly, the most important part of this sentence, the particle の. This particle indicates belonging, or something being a subset of a larger group. It's usually used in the format "noun1"の"noun2", for example "PeteのPS3" would be "Pete's PS3" or "the PS3 of Pete". One noun is often omitted when it's obvious what it would be. And here we have a case of noun1 being omitted. This could make stuff difficult, but the only other noun that has been referred to is "course". So this gives us a proper sentence of 60コースのレイアウト以上. This would be literally translated as "60 courses' layouts more than", or in proper English "More than 60 layouts of courses".

Of course, this information could be faulty or incomplete. But assuming that the leaked page was accurate, there are 20 courses with 60 layouts and a layout is a subset of a course. The obvious interpretation is that a layout is a track variant.

Obviously, I'm as hopeful as the next person that this is not what we end up with, but based on the information given this is what we have. You may choose to disbelieve it if you wish, but I'd prefer that people didn't try to warp the translations into something they want it to be.

P.S. If this has gibberish symbols in it, they're Japanese text.
 
And that's an area where by ambiguity might come into play... what is accepted by the word "course" in one language might be slightly different in another. Perhaps in Japanese a course can apply to all tracks at a given location... I am not saying that's the case here, but I have run into plenty of that kind of thing before. I always refer to the many kinds of "snow" eskimos have. Even directly translated, something can be lost.

The problem is it's hard to spot ambiguity from only one side of the translation becaues when I read that, I know what I think it means, but that's not necessarily what it means. Subtle meanings and understandings are always lost going from a mothe tongue to a second or third.

If you read my explanation on the "courses" line you wouldn't be telling me this.

The word "course" was taken directly from english and therefore means the exact same thing. It's written in katakana which is the alphabet japanese people use to write worlds from other languages. The same thing for the word "layout". There's nothing open for interpretation there.

And you obviously don't have experience translating. What you described is the main concern of translators and the good ones make an extra effort to find the exact word that means the exact same thing in the other language. When it's not possible they give you the right interpretation or an in depth explanation.

EDIT: And again angelacaine was quicker.
 
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If you read my explanation on the "courses" line you wouldn't be telling me this.

The word "course" was taken directly from english and therefore means the exact same thing. It's written in katakana which is the alphabet japanese people use to write worlds from other languages. The same thing for the word "layout". There's nothing open for interpretation there.

And you obviously don't have experience translating. What you described is the main concern of translators and the good ones make an extra effort to find the exact word that means the exact same thing in the other language. When it's not possible they give you the right interpretation or an in depth explanation.

I didn't mean that, just used courses as a possible example. Totally forgot your explanation of where it came from but yes I see what you are saying there.

I haven't done a lot of translating, but my father did a lot (he was one of the top professors at a large English institute in China) and as such had to translate a lot of works. The problem was that after hours and hours of researching meanings and intonations, it was never perfect.

No one understands a language quite like a native speaker who grew up with it, so translating is always an art and not a science and perfection is pretty much just out of grasp at the best of times.

Often times his translations had to have numerous references and notes and even then the readers personal experiences, culture and what not would often play a part in how it was taken no matter how careful the translator was.

As I said, the problem isn't whether a translator searches hard for the exact word in another language, there are some words that simply don't exist in other languages (examples evade me at the moment :ouch:) so often you have to find the next closest match or do a lot of explaining. And again, if the exact word doesn't exist in your langauge, it's probably because your culture hasn't historically had need to represent that idea so clearly (again, eskimos and snow) so it's even harder because not only is there not an exact word with that meaning, the very meaning may be foreign and difficult to comprehend for the reader.

Anyhow, I could go on but if I make the explanation too long, it would probably not make it any more clear :)


EDIT here is a page discussing such issues, I haven't read the whole thing so may be shooting myself in the foot, but the general idea is there.

http://www.languagehat.com/archives/003614.php

That is where I find that most translation issues come from. In one culture an idea may exist that simply doesn't or only exists in a limited way in another. So even a good translation will leave something to be desired.
 
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I think that's a great recommendation!

However, that was the pitfall of many translations.

20 tracks makes no sense, so many translators somehow steered the translation into something else that makes more sense. Same thing happened with the 170 cars with interior and damage.

I know I'm repeating myself, but what makes no sense in that page makes no sense both in english and japanese.
 
I didn't mean that, just used courses as a possible example. Totally forgot your explanation of where it came from but yes I see what you are saying there.

I haven't done a lot of translating, but my father did a lot (he was one of the top professors at a large English institute in China) and as such had to translate a lot of works. The problem was that after hours and hours of researching meanings and intonations, it was never perfect.

No one understands a language quite like a native speaker who grew up with it, so translating is always an art and not a science and perfection is pretty much just out of grasp at the best of times.

Often times his translations had to have numerous references and notes and even then the readers personal experiences, culture and what not would often play a part in how it was taken no matter how careful the translator was.

As I said, the problem isn't whether a translator searches hard for the exact word in another language, there are some words that simply don't exist in other languages (examples evade me at the moment :ouch:) so often you have to find the next closest match or do a lot of explaining. And again, if the exact word doesn't exist in your langauge, it's probably because your culture hasn't historically had need to represent that idea so clearly (again, eskimos and snow) so it's even harder because not only is there not an exact word with that meaning, the very meaning may be foreign and difficult to comprehend for the reader.

Anyhow, I could go on but if I make the explanation too long, it would probably not make it any more clear :)

Yes, indeed. That's why you're asking us and we are giving you the in depth explanation. Thankfully, it's about straightforward, common things any outsider can understand without much of a hassle.
 
However, that was the pitfall of many translations.

20 tracks makes no sense, so many translators somehow steered the translation into something else that makes more sense. Same thing happened with the 170 cars with interior and damage.

I know I'm repeating myself, but what makes no sense in that page makes no sense both in english and japanese.

That's not quite right. 20 tracks makes perfect sense semantically. It's just not at all what people expected to hear.

That was one of the least confusing parts of the translation, to my mind.
 
Yes, indeed. That's why you're asking us and we are giving you the in depth explanation.

Yes and since you are here, that's great, but when I was dealing with serversurfer the translation available was the news page one and as far as I can tell, no such luxury was afforded.

I suppose therin lies an ambiguity. When I was referring to translating, I was referring to the finished product, often without the luxury of asking for further detail or followup. For instance, when my father translated a text, you weren't likely to be ringing him up on the phone to ask a lengthy question about a certain meaning.

In this case since we have the option of dialogue and discourse, the subject is changed somewhat.

However, that was the pitfall of many translations.

20 tracks makes no sense, so many translators somehow steered the translation into something else that makes more sense. Same thing happened with the 170 cars with interior and damage.

I know I'm repeating myself, but what makes no sense in that page makes no sense both in english and japanese.

And such is the problem with using judgement when to apply. I seperated what I wanted to hear with what was said and have relegated myself to the idea that there will be 20 tracks and 60 variations.

This is because it DOES make sense, so you don't need to analyze it (unpleasant but it makes sense). Going backto my example of fully modeled cars showing doors flopping open from interior view but the non premium ones not showing that... that just doesn't make sense.

BTW see my edit above http://www.languagehat.com/archives/003614.php
 
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That's not quite right. 20 tracks makes perfect sense semantically. It's just not at all what people expected to hear.

That was one of the least confusing parts of the translation, to my mind.

Yes, I meant people saw what they didn't wanted to see and changed the translation to their liking. After all it makes perfect sense semantically but it doesn't make any sense GT5MustBeEpicAndWasInDevelopment5Years-lly, if you know what I mean :)
 
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Which in turn means that GT-PSP will be better than GT5 in this regard, given that cockpit views are available for all 800 cars?

AFAIK there is a cockpit view in GT PSP but no actual cockpit. The cockpit details are all blacked out. Like this....

gran-turismo-20090914055731811.jpg


There better be nothing like that in GT 5.
 
Admittedly, there are cases in which the secondary language doesn't have a simple word or phrase for something from the primary language.

The best example I come across all the time is tsundere. It's basically a girl who is kind of a bitch most of the time, but then turns into a lapdog around her love interest. It's impossible to convey that in a succinct manner, and as a result English translations simply use tsundere and then put an explanation at the bottom.

I find this often to be more of a problem with casual speech or conversational speech, as technical speech is becoming more and more standardised as the technical community becomes more international.

Yes, I meant people saw what they don't wanted to see and changed the translation to their liking. After all it makes perfect sense semantically but it doesn't make any sense GT5MustBeEpicAndWasInDevelopment5Years-lly if you know what I mean

I get what you mean now. Yes, that's another failing of translators at times, imposition of your own views instead of the views of the author.

AFAIK there is a cockpit view in GT PSP but no actual cockpit. The cockpit details are all blacked out. Like this....

That's exactly the kind of thing I'm really hoping isn't used for the 830. Because that would make sense in the translation, but good lord it looks terrible.
 
Admittedly, there are cases in which the secondary language doesn't have a simple word or phrase for something from the primary language.

And bear in mind this came up because there was some disageement over the accuracy of the word "corresponds" vs meaning "correlates" in the original translation. With things like that, it seems even more possible that something is amiss. Considering your translation contains neither word and is more precies I would think that scrutiny was warranted.

That's exactly the kind of thing I'm really hoping isn't used for the 830. Because that would make sense in the translation, but good lord it looks terrible.

Add one vote to team "I hope not!"
 
And bear in mind this came up because there was some disageement over the accuracy of the word "corresponds" vs meaning "correlates" in the original translation. With things like that, it seems even more possible that something is amiss. Considering your translation contains neither word and is more precies I would think that scrutiny was warranted.

Oh, absolutely. As a translator, it can be a bit demoralising to have your work questioned by people who don't know the language. But it's just part of the job I think, people naturally want to understand things.

If something seems strange, I think it's healthiest to go for questioning the translation first. It's the most likely culprit, even from a veteran translator which I am surely not. It's then the translator's job to justify their translation, especially in something like this where every word matters.
 
Have you seen all these things people are bringing up where KAZ does indeed mention 170 cars, sets will have damage, etc etc?
No, I've never seen Kaz say that 170 cars will be race cars, or that 170 cars will feature damage, or that 170 cars will have "interior design," or that 830 cars aren't/wouldn't. Do you happen to have a link to any or all of those statements?

The only number I've seen him use lately is 100, as in, the leaked feature list is 100% accurate. I've also seen him later refer to sets, as in, it still hasn't been determined which sets of cars will feature damage.

But wait. According to Angela and Dravonic's translation, the feature list says that 170 cars will have damage, and 830 won't. And Kaz said the feature list was 100% accurate. But he also said that it was still being determined how many cars will have damage. How can all of those things be true? If they're still debating which cars will and won't feature damage, then how could it have been said more than a month ago with 100% acuracy that 170 cars will and the remaining 830 won't?

Gee, could it be possible that Angela's interpretation of the meaning of her literal translation of the feature list was incorrect? It seems far more likely than Kaz being incorrect what's in the game he's been working on for nearly 15 years, doesn't it?

Famine also translated the original text, and interpreted it to say, 1) All cars would have cockpit views, 2) 170 cars would feature both cockpit and exterior damage, 3) the remaining cars could feature exterior damage, but would not feature interior damage. None of this conflicts with anything I've heard Kaz say, and it's more in line with what I would personally expect from the game. (i.e. all cars would feature cockpits but not all would show exterior damage—likely dependent on manufacturer's restrictions—and as a surprise bonus, 17% would also feature cockpit damage in addition to exterior damage)

So to me, Famine's is the more reasonable interpretation of the document, yes, partly because it's in line with my own expectations, but primarily because it doesn't directly contradict anything I've heard Kaz say, as Angela's interpretation seems to do.

Hell, maybe "170 premium cars (interior design, support for damage)" is just explaining exactly what's "premium" or "better" about those cars; their interior design and damage modeling are just better and more detailed than on a standard car. That wouldn't necessarily indicate the other cars don't support these features at all, just that they didn't get the extra love needed to make them "premium."

To be clear, I'm not doubting the accuracy of Angela's translation, but rather her interpretation of said translation. Specifically, I don't know that it's most reasonable to assume the fact a feature is not explicitly mentioned in a given context indicates it does not exist in said context. Particularly when they go on to say that damage modeling is now just a basic feature of the game engine itself.

The section on the Cockpit Camera Interface explicitly mentions using head-tracking to control the camera. What about the bumper cam? It seems reasonable to expect head-treacking to function with that view, doesn't it? But it explicitly tells us that it works with the cockpit camera. Does that mean it's implicitly telling us it doesn't work with the bumper cam? Furthermore, since we're supposed to take an explicit mentioning of interior design in the section on premium cars as an implicit statement that standard cars don't have cockpits, does that tell us that head-tracking will only function with 170 cars, because they're the only cars we're able to climb inside? All of this seems pretty unlikely, but it's the logical extension of Angela's reasoning.

So while Angela's translation may be technically sound, it seems like her literality is causing her to misunderstand what they were actually trying to convey, because her interpretation makes everything sound pretty half-assed. Basically, by assuming that "what's not explicitly said is likely not there," she's saying that the three major, new features of the game—damage, cockpits, and head-tracking—can only be used by 17% of the cars in the game. With all due respect to Angela, I think her interpretations may be a little too literal, as they only seem to sound reasonable to the "haha GT suxorz" crew. Most everyone else is saying, "Well, I don't doubt that's what is says, but I don't see how that could be."

Edit: I started writing this, wandered away for a few hours, then came back an clicked Post, only to find at least a dozen other posts since I'd started it. So if I seem to be ignoring new information, I apologize. I'm off to bed now, so I'll catch up tomorrow.
 
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No, I've never seen Kaz say that 170 cars will be race cars, or that 170 cars will feature damage, or that 170 cars will have "interior design," or that 830 cars aren't/wouldn't. Do you happen to have a link to any or all of those statements?

The only number I've seen him use lately is 100, as in, the leaked feature list is 100% accurate. I've also seen him later refer to sets, as in, it still hasn't been determined which sets of cars will feature damage.

But wait. According to Angela and Dravonic's translation, the feature list says that 170 cars will have damage, and 830 won't. And Kaz said the feature list was 100% accurate. But he also said that it was still being determined how many cars will have damage. How can all of those things be true? If they're still debating which cars will and won't feature damage, then how could it have been said more than a month ago with 100% acuracy that 170 cars will and the remaining 830 won't?

Gee, could it be possible that Angela's interpretation of the meaning of her literal translation of the feature list was incorrect? It seems far more likely than Kaz being incorrect what's in the game he's been working on for nearly 15 years, doesn't it?

Famine also translated the original text, and interpreted it to say, 1) All cars would have cockpit views, 2) 170 cars would feature both cockpit and exterior damage, 3) the remaining cars could feature exterior damage, but would not feature interior damage. None of this conflicts with anything I've heard Kaz say, and it's more in line with what I would personally expect from the game. (i.e. all cars would feature cockpits but not all would show exterior damage—likely dependent on manufacturer's restrictions—and as a surprise bonus, 17% would also feature cockpit damage in addition to exterior damage)

So to me, Famine's is the more reasonable interpretation of the document, yes, partly because it's in line with my own expectations, but primarily because it doesn't directly contradict anything I've heard Kaz say, as Angela's interpretation seems to do.

Hell, maybe "170 premium cars (interior design, support for damage)" is just explaining exactly what's "premium" or "better" about those cars; their interior design and damage modeling are just better and more detailed than on a standard car. That wouldn't necessarily indicate the other cars don't support these features at all, just that they didn't get the extra love needed to make them "premium."

To be clear, I'm not doubting the accuracy of Angela's translation, but rather her interpretation of said translation. Specifically, I don't know that it's most reasonable to assume the fact a feature is not explicitly mentioned in a given context indicates it does not exist in said context. Particularly when they go on to say that damage modeling is now just a basic feature of the game engine itself.

The section on the Cockpit Camera Interface explicitly mentions using head-tracking to control the camera. What about the bumper cam? It seems reasonable to expect head-treacking to function with that view, doesn't it? But it explicitly tells us that it works with the cockpit camera. Does that mean it's implicitly telling us it doesn't work with the bumper cam? Furthermore, since we're supposed to take an explicit mentioning of interior design in the section on premium cars as an implicit statement that standard cars don't have cockpits, does that tell us that head-tracking will only function with 170 cars, because they're the only cars we're able to climb inside? All of this seems pretty unlikely, but it's the logical extension of Angela's reasoning.

So while Angela's translation may be technically sound, it seems like her literality is causing her to misunderstand what they were actually trying to convey, because her interpretation makes everything sound pretty half-assed. Basically, by assuming that "what's not explicitly said is likely not there," she's saying that the three major, new features of the game—damage, cockpits, and head-tracking—can only be used by 17% of the cars in the game. With all due respect to Angela, I think her interpretations may be a little too literal, as they only seem to sound reasonable to the "haha GT suxorz" crew. Most everyone else is saying, "Well, I don't doubt that's what is says, but I don't see how that could be."

Yeah, I think you missed a bit. I agree, some of the stuff in there seems pretty left-field. But, that's what it says. It's a solid source of information. If you choose to disregard it, then so be it. But you can't twist it to mean something else.

What you're postulating here sounds reasonable but it's merely opinion. You could be correct, you could not. I have my own expectations for the game, and believe it or not they're not too different from yours.

What I say about the translation is intentionally literal. It's intentionally as concrete as I can make it. It's not a poem. It's not a novel. It's a spec list, which is a very literal document. Because of the sparse way in which it was written, it leaves questions unanswered though.

I intentionally separated my opinion from the literal text, because I didn't want people to confuse the two. The reality is the document gives you very little solid information other than some numbers. And potentially even those are subject to variation, how hard would it be for PD to add a few more cars or tracks over the months since that was published? There's a lot you can infer from what is said in the document, but you have realise that it's not concrete information.

I've not said that anything not in the document is not there. That would be foolish. It doesn't mention a livery editor, but that doesn't mean there isn't one. It doesn't mean there is either. We have no information either way. The same for anything else that isn't mentioned in there. We have no idea about the specs of standard cars other than they're somehow related to GT4 and they're worse than premium cars. They may or may not include some form of damage. We have no idea about premium cars other than they include interiors (whatever that means) and damage support.

I think you're wanting there to be more there than there actually is. I'm sorry that it's not the case, but most of what you're posting is solid speculation. All cars have cockpit views? All cars featuring exterior damage? I agree that these are things that SHOULD be in the game, but at the moment there is no evidence one way or the other.

Suspension of judgement is what we call it in scientific circles.

As an aside, did Famine ever publish a translation? I missed that one, does anyone have a link? More out of interest than anything, it's always good to see how other people translate the same material.
 
PD certainly does have fun of us, they might show us all the poor stuff and nonsences just to reveal GT5 in one big WOW one day. The more I know, the more I think about it.
 
No, I've never seen Kaz say that 170 cars will be race cars, or that 170 cars will feature damage, or that 170 cars will have "interior design," or that 830 cars aren't/wouldn't. Do you happen to have a link to any or all of those statements?

No. For the same reason I didn't post them before, there has been a LOT of info and I am not going to go digging through it to make up for what you missed. You can choose not to believe me, but you will see that I am not the only one bringing up those numbers and descriptions so either it did happen or there is a big conspiracy against you here.

How can all of those things be true? If they're still debating which cars will and won't feature damage, then how could it have been said more than a month ago with 100% acuracy that 170 cars will and the remaining 830 won't?

Who knows? Maybe it's not all accurate, and if so, that's when we need to use common sense to come up with the most educated guess as to where the info is most accurate. Or maybe it is all accurate in some convuluted way, maybe there will be damage patched in after releaes and so they are determining how many will in the end have damage, thus making everything accurate.

You are suddenly very questioning of the very list you were treating as gospel only hours ago...

Gee, could it be possible that Angela's interpretation of the meaning of her literal translation of the feature list was incorrect? It seems far more likely than Kaz being incorrect what's in the game he's been working on for nearly 15 years, doesn't it?

Sure, anythings possible. But you know once you go down that road, you have to agree to abide by that rule too right? None of this what I think is right is right and what you think is right is an excuse stuff yeah?

Famine also translated the original text, and interpreted it to say, 1) All cars would have cockpit views, 2) 170 cars would feature both cockpit and exterior damage, 3) the remaining cars could feature exterior damage, but would not feature interior damage. None of this conflicts with anything I've heard Kaz say, and it's more in line with what I would personally expect from the game. (i.e. all cars would feature cockpits but not all would show exterior damage—likely dependent on manufacturer's restrictions—and as a surprise bonus, 17% would also feature cockpit damage in addition to exterior damage)

Odd you didn't jump all over Famine about his numbers... but hey, why not post what you think will be official over in my thread about TGS? Instead of this meandering constantly changing conversation where you keep flipping back and forth between righteous indignance and pussy cat curiousity just go lay it out there.

So to me, Famine's is the more reasonable interpretation of the document, yes, partly because it's in line with my own expectations, but primarily because it doesn't directly contradict anything I've heard Kaz say, as Angela's interpretation seems to do.

So where does that account for the problem you brought up earlier about knowing the exact numbers and still deciding which cars get treated how?

Hell, maybe "170 premium cars (interior design, support for damage)" is just explaining exactly what's "premium" or "better" about those cars; their interior design and damage modeling are just better and more detailed than on a standard car. That wouldn't necessarily indicate the other cars don't support these features at all, just that they didn't get the extra love needed to make them "premium."

Sure... get a longer line and you can deep sea fish. You can speculate almost anything, that's what we are all doing anyway.

What about the bumper cam? It seems reasonable to expect head-treacking to function with that view, doesn't it?

No... I don't think the bumper cam would be a logical place to have head tracking work...

So while Angela's translation may be technically sound, it seems like her literality is causing her to misunderstand what they were actually trying to convey, because her interpretation makes everything sound pretty half-assed.

It certainly seems like you are now the one picking what you like to believe. A while ago you wouldn't let me slide on corresponds becuase that's not what was literally translated no matter how reasonable it seemed to be elsewise (to the point of you assuming doors on some cars would not appear to fly open from cockpit view), but now the most literal translation isn't good enough?

You are more slippery than.... something that is really slippery and hard to nail down. I am tired.


Edit: I started writing this, wandered away for a few hours, then came back an clicked Post, only to find at least a dozen other posts since I'd started it. So if I seem to be ignoring new information, I apologize. I'm off to bed now, so I'll catch up tomorrow.

Happens.
 
PD certainly does have fun of us, they might show us all the poor stuff and nonsences just to reveal GT5 in one big WOW one day. The more I know, the more I think about it.

And the more confused you will be.
 
Am I the only one who's getting nauseous from going through this thread?

Basically there are two points of view repeated through over 70+ pages (on my forum settings), no new material whatsoever. I admire your patience. Maybe I'll rejoin the discussion after TGS.
 
TGS will only bring out more opposite views going back and forth. It's inevitable.
 
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