The elephant in the room: bad frame rate

  • Thread starter Proud_God
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poumpoum
Hood view -> huge immersion breaker...
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That's a very debatable point. I have the wheel in my hands, the wheel a meter in front of me isn't adding to the immersion. I'd argue that hood view is more realistic in almost all situations. That is, unless you stick your face into the screen or wear something like Oculus Rift.
 
Dimontez
That's a very debatable point. I have the wheel in my hands, the wheel a meter in front of me isn't adding to the immersion. I'd argue that hood view is more realistic in almost all situations. That is, unless you stick your face into the screen or wear something like Oculus Rift.
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My wheel touches the screen, If you see two wheels than you have to modify your configuration. This is what I'm targeting for gt6 (screens/POV):

If we could choose to remove the wheel in gran turismo like in iracing it could be perfect... But even if we can't, you can see clearly that your IRL wheel will be in front of your "virtual wheel" so it's ok.

IMO, playing with hood view is like playing a mircomachine game, you are too high and you can see to much, I'm better with it but there is no immersion...
 
Streeto
FPS is one of the most picky arguments ever.

I've never had a moment where I think "wow this frame rate is really a problem".

I think people like you just like complaining.
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I partially agree. I think framerate's important, especially in a racing game. But despite framerate drops in GT5 being fairly perceptible and not exactly uncommon, they weren't that bad. What bugs me many times more than FPS is the screen tearing.

Hopefully screen tearing has been reduced compared to GT5.
 
Dimontez
That's a very debatable point. I have the wheel in my hands, the wheel a meter in front of me isn't adding to the immersion. I'd argue that hood view is more realistic in almost all situations. That is, unless you stick your face into the screen or wear something like Oculus Rift.
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I'd be with you if GTs hood view was a true hood view like a camera stuck where the windshield meets the hood.

But most of the time it seems to be mounted way up on the roof or above, and it's just bizarre to drive from there.
 
poumpoum
My wheel touches the screen, If you see two wheels than you have to modify your configuration.
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Well, that's what I meant by sticking your face into the screen, can't play this close, but if that works for your, then sure, cockpit view is the way to go (though I still feel that it's way too cramped and blocks your view unless you go for a full 3-screen setup). The way my monitor is positioned, it's roughly where my windscreen would be if I was sitting in an actual car.

poumpoum
IMO, playing with hood view is like playing a mircomachine game, you are too high and you can see to much, I'm better with it but there is no immersion...
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Imari
I'd be with you if GTs hood view was a true hood view like a camera stuck where the windshield meets the hood.

But most of the time it seems to be mounted way up on the roof or above, and it's just bizarre to drive from there.
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With that I completely agree. One of the things I miss most since my transition from Forza (apart from non-anemic AI and a working performance index) is a proper hood view. It's alright on some vehicles, but horrible on others. Funnily, I can't remember from GT Academy, isn't it a bit better in GT6?
 
Trux
Really hope it's fixed. There were drops in GT5 but they never really bothered me.
I play in 1080p and only ever use cockpit view.
The frame drops in the GT6 demo made it unplayable using cockpit view.
The aliasing (jaggies) were also much worse than in GT5.
I hope both are improved for the finished (cough) game but I do remember Jordon saying the frame drops were still there in a very recent build.
If i have to play in 720p I will I guess.
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This is typical PD marketing.. making a game inferior in an area where a new console can shine, basically so that they can show off what the PS4 can do with frame rates and graphics.
 
Magic Ayrton
This thread is a joke right? I have run GT5 and GT6 demo in 1080P on my Panasonic 32 and 37 inch screens and have never ever, not even once noticed any issues.

It simply looks gorgeous with no slow down at all.. and that is on my fat 40gb and slim 160gb
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Calling this thread a joke is an insult to those who do notice the drops. Your either lying or oblivious to the problem. If it's the latter then your a fortunate individual.

http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/digitalfoundry-gt6-demo-vs-gt5
 
poumpoum
My wheel touches the screen, If you see two wheels than you have to modify your configuration. This is what I'm targeting for gt6 (screens/POV):

If we could choose to remove the wheel in gran turismo like in iracing it could be perfect... But even if we can't, you can see clearly that your IRL wheel will be in front of your "virtual wheel" so it's ok.

IMO, playing with hood view is like playing a mircomachine game, you are too high and you can see to much, I'm better with it but there is no immersion...
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IMo that cockpit view is totally unrealistic, far to much clutter and far to little view ahead.
I mean look at it about 2/3 the FOV is taken up by the interior of the car and just a very very small window to see the road ahead.

When driving a real car you do not see 2 feet of the headliner, in fact I do not notice the headliner at all when driving a real car but yet in video games you see quite a lot of it as well as a lot more dash than you would see without looking down. The only way you FOV would include that much of the interior with eyes on the road would be if you were in the back seat which is exactly what it feels like. Not realistic at all.

It is like that took the view that you would have from straight ahead, then with eyes directed down to the instrument panel and then with eyes directed up and a bit of either side and merged them all into the view ahead, which IMO is horrible and makes the game much less immersive and harder to drive,

When driving a real car with eyes ahead I see the top of the dash board, the hood [on most cars anyway but not all] and the road ahead. I have to divert my eyes to see the rear view mirror, instruments side view mirror, headliner, and have a much larger and more clear view of the road than in these silly simulated cockpit views.

As for the wheel being right up at the screen that is a bit to close unless you are using a very small screen.
 
Calm down guys...

Perhaps Magic Ayrton plays on a TV with a lot of post-processing (Clear Motion Rate @200Hz, 400Hz, 600Hz....), in this case the game can be really smooth but you have a lot of input lag. :)
 
HBR-Roadhog
IMo that cockpit view is totally unrealistic, far to much clutter and far to little view ahead.

When driving a real car you do not see 2 feet of the headliner, in fact I do not notice the headliner at all when driving a real car but yet in video games you see quite a lot of it as well as a lot more dash than you would see without looking down. The only way you FOV would include that much of the interior with eyes on the road would be if you were in the back seat which is exactly what it feels like. Not realistic at all.

It is like that took the view that you would have from straight ahead, then with eyes directed down to the instrument panel and then with eyes directed up and a bit of either side and merged them all into the view ahead, which IMO is horrible and makes the game much less immersive and harder to drive,

When driving a real car with eyes ahead I see the top of the dash board, the hood [on most cars anyway but not all] and the road ahead. I have to divert my eyes to see the rear view mirror, instruments side view mirror, headliner, and have a much larger and more clear view of the road than in these silly simulated cockpit views.

As for the wheel being right up at the screen that is a bit to close unless you are using a very small screen.
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A lot of simracer consider this as the "perfect" FOV.

I think you are blending 2 different notions. Ther are :
-"what you are focused on" => usually, the road :D
-"what you can see" => speed feeling, immersion purpose...

When I'm on a track, I don't see the headliner because I'm really focused on what's happening in front of me but it does not mean that this headliner are is not in my FOV...

When you play on a triple screen like this one(3x43") and you are focused on the road, you don't see that headliner except if you stop focusing on the road like in real life. I don't know what is your screen right now but if you look this video on a triple 43" you will realize that the "road/track area" is big enough to attract your attention. So you don't really "see" the interior of the car...

Perhaps the nascar wasn't a good example, this one is really great :
 
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I use a single 40 inch display, no desire nor space to buy and use two more complete systems. If you like the view that is fine but to me it is not good at all to far away from the windsheild to much clutter not enough view of the road, not even close to realistic.

In fact that view is one of the worst I have saw, can't see the rear view mirror properly, which you can easily in a real car yet you see lots of stuff that you would never noticed while driving in real life

btw in that still of the video above the rear view mirror looks like it is a good 2 feet from the windshield and is barely visible whereas in a real car it would be mount to or at the windshield and easily visible. You would not be able to see 3 feet of headerliner unless you actually look up and possibly tilt your head back.

As far as realistic feeling cockpit views that one is actually one of the worst I have saw so far.
 
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This is why I wish all racing games had a fully adjustable seat position like TDU1 had. You could adjust forward back up and down in every car. It was perfect. For whatever stupid reason, TDU2 doesn't even have that anymore??!! I could not even comprehend removing that feature. :dunce:

Its even more mind blowing that simulation racers don't have that. :dunce: You could kinda do it in Forza 3 and 4 by going into a multi screen setup (even if you didn't have multi screen). That worked quite well.
 
HBR-Roadhog
I use a single 40 inch display, no desire nor space to buy and use two more complete systems. If you like the view that is fine but to me it is not good at all to far away from the windsheild to much clutter not enough view of the road, not even close to realistic.
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Yeah the thing that struck me about cockpit view is this...

And mind you, I'm someone who's rather short & drives a 2 door coupe, and needs padding in the driver seat of my real car, as a booster in order to see over the dashboard properly. LOL :lol:

I found that cockpit view in gt5 was an obstructed view I don't even have in my real car.
It's as if bumper cam or whatever better simulates for me, what I see in my real car, when I'm visually ignoring the interior of my car like the dash board & hood, etc. In real life, I'm almost completely visually unaware & not focused upon the presence of my dash board. Unless like a spider starts crawling across it. LOL
So I just never found any appeal in using cockpit view myself.


I don't know what this has to do with FPS. But maybe that should be part of the discussion.
Does FPS differences appear somehow more obvious when you can see the cockpit? I wouldn't have assumed so, but I don't really know how it relates.
 
Well when you are in cockpit view there is more going on graphics wise, dials and gauges updating, hands and wheel moving, lighting and shadows across the interior parts, add to that weather conditions and wipers and you have the potential for a frame rate drop for sure.

I have driven in cockpit view a bit in GT5 and a little on the GT6 demo but did not run into issues, but I have not driven in this mode much as I really do not like it. A hood view would be much better for me than any that exist in GT5 and would likely perform better from an FPS standpoint than cockpit or chase views.

When I drive hood view in Forza for example, the hood is visible on most cars, very visible on a car such as a Viper and not visible at all on some of the short nosed cars and vans just as it would be IRL. To me this is more real than any view in GT, good view of the road, the part of the hood that is visible helps to judge distances behind the car in front of you as well as the sides of the track. In GT5 I have noticed that in bumper view you are actually closer to the car in front than what it appears. On a few occasions I have tapped the car in front while it appears that I am still 2-3 feet behind it. Not a huge deal but bothersome
 
HBR-Roadhog
Well when you are in cockpit view there is more going on graphics wise, dials and gauges updating, hands and wheel moving, lighting and shadows across the interior parts, add to that weather conditions and wipers and you have the potential for a frame rate drop for sure.

I have driven in cockpit view a bit in GT5 and a little on the GT6 demo but did not run into issues, but I have not driven in this mode much as I really do not like it. A hood view would be much better for me than any that exist in GT5 and would likely perform better from an FPS standpoint than cockpit or chase views.

When I drive hood view in Forza for example, the hood is visible on most cars, very visible on a car such as a Viper and not visible at all on some of the short nosed cars and vans just as it would be IRL. To me this is more real than any view in GT, good view of the road, the part of the hood that is visible helps to judge distances behind the car in front of you as well as the sides of the track. In GT5 I have noticed that in bumper view you are actually closer to the car in front than what it appears. On a few occasions I have tapped the car in front while it appears that I am still 2-3 feet behind it. Not a huge deal but bothersome
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Ah yeah I guess I wasn't thinking about the hands/wheel movement, but I imagine that would figure into it, yes.

I was forgetting about the gt5 hood view. Ideally, yes, that would be my preference. I don't remember the particulars, but the reason I found that a non-option in gt5 was because there were other things about the view which I had a problem with... I think there was something missing or something different that I didn't like at all. So I had settled on the bumper view as the most comfortable & most realism for me.
 
poumpoum
A lot of simracer consider this as the "perfect" FOV.

I think you are blending 2 different notions. Ther are :
-"what you are focused on" => usually, the road :D
-"what you can see" => speed feeling, immersion purpose...

When I'm on a track, I don't see the headliner because I'm really focused on what's happening in front of me but it does not mean that this headliner are is not in my FOV...

When you play on a triple screen like this one(3x43") and you are focused on the road, you don't see that headliner except if you stop focusing on the road like in real life. I don't know what is your screen right now but if you look this video on a triple 43" you will realize that the "road/track area" is big enough to attract your attention. So you don't really "see" the interior of the car...

Perhaps the nascar wasn't a good example, this one is really great :
Click to expand...


The in-car gameplay looks eerily realistic and smooth. I'm astounded by that... :drool:
 
watermelonpunch
Ah yeah I guess I wasn't thinking about the hands/wheel movement, but I imagine that would figure into it, yes.

I was forgetting about the gt5 hood view. Ideally, yes, that would be my preference. I don't remember the particulars, but the reason I found that a non-option in gt5 was because there were other things about the view which I had a problem with... I think there was something missing or something different that I didn't like at all. So I had settled on the bumper view as the most comfortable & most realism for me.
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Actually the view you are referring to in GT is better described as a roof view. It is close to a hood view on a small number of cars which do not actually have a roof but in general it seems that the POV in that view is roughly in the center of the roof above the front seat about where you would fin a sun roof on many cars.

Forza uses a Hood view as does a view other racers. This is my preferred view. In GT4 I got used to roof view and used it most of the time. In GT5 I tend to switch between roof and bumper depending on the car I am using and a few other factors.

I would really really like to have the option of a hood view though, IMO that would be much better than the current choices.
 
GT6 has a steady and strong 60FPS in 1080P from what I played, which is all novice events and coffee break, but then I played splitscreen multiplayer on Bathurst and the framerate was horrible on most of the circuit, Nordshcleife and Willow Streets were solid 60 all around, Nord was a night race, it's random in splitscreen, solo you chose time and weather. Cannot speak about FPS for Mount Panomara in single player.
 
HBR-Roadhog
Actually the view you are referring to in GT is better described as a roof view. It is close to a hood view on a small number of cars which do not actually have a roof but in general it seems that the POV in that view is roughly in the center of the roof above the front seat about where you would fin a sun roof on many cars.

Forza uses a Hood view as does a view other racers. This is my preferred view. In GT4 I got used to roof view and used it most of the time. In GT5 I tend to switch between roof and bumper depending on the car I am using and a few other factors.

I would really really like to have the option of a hood view though, IMO that would be much better than the current choices.
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Oh, I think of "roof view" as the 3rd person view - where you could see the roof - and basically the whole car.

Anyway, I didn't think the view of the hood was particularly bad necessarily... It was definitely something else about that view that was a problem. Is it missing the gauges or something - I don't remember.
 
HBR-Roadhog
I would really really like to have the option of a hood view though, IMO that would be much better than the current choices.
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We can kiss that wish goodbye. In GT6 when you go into a replay you can chose between views, iirc there are 6, one of them is roof cam, it is in the middle of the roof, you can see half the roof and the hood, then there's the "bonnet cam", it's literally its name, but it is situated at roof height right on top of the windshield (like in races). So we can hope all we want for a proper hood view, but in the eyes of Polyphony Digital what we call a roof cam is actually a bonnet cam. I'd like to see Kaz's face when translator San tells him people are complaining about a lack of a hood view/bonnet cam. I bet there's a Japanese emoticon for it.
 
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Frame rate is an issue.. But it's definitely not the elephant in the room.

Elephant in the room: Terrible engine sounds.
 
watermelonpunch
Oh, I think of "roof view" as the 3rd person view - where you could see the roof - and basically the whole car.

Anyway, I didn't think the view of the hood was particularly bad necessarily... It was definitely something else about that view that was a problem. Is it missing the gauges or something - I don't remember.
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No rearview mirror
 

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