The F1 driver transfer discussion/speculation archiveFormula 1 

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prisonermonkeys
I suspect that a lot of the criticism directed at Kaltenborn has been directed at her because she is a woman.
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The same reason when things went to crap at Mclaren that people were saying Whitmarsh needs to be sacked because he is a woman?

It's a good excuse at best I would say, Claire Williams seems to be doing a bloody good job on the other hand.
 
craigatm
He had all winter to make his appeal, but instead Giedo waited until the last minute;...
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He didn't, the arbitration's award was issued on the second of march; he refered to the australian court in order to have that decision enforced.

prisonermonkeys
...It's not the kind of thing that Sauber would want to air publicly unless they absolutely had to.
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Midfield and backmarker teams made no secret the increasing of cost in Formula One reached a point where survival was at stake last year.
 
Soundtrack
Midfield and backmarker teams made no secret the increasing of cost in Formula One reached a point where survival was at stake last year.
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Yeah, but they never went into specifics of just how desperate they were.
 
Come to think of it, this sort of reminds me of how Jordan declined after being successfully sued by Frentzen after he was dropped in favour of Sato for 2002.
 
I've heard that originally VdG was seeking financial compensation from Sauber and that due to a lack of capital within the team, they were unable to pay off his existing contract, hence why he decided to pursue a drive with the team instead.

Regardless of how long it takes to gather the evidence over the winter, waiting until just a few days prior to Melbourne is rather inexcusable and more than likely a tactical move on his part due to legislative differences between the VSC and where the original case was held in Switzerland. On the flip-side, Sauber arguing that it could result in 'serious injury' or 'death' putting Giedo in the car is a relatively poor excuse - the case of Jules Bianchi and Luiz Razia in 2013 is enough to argue against that, especially when Bianchi had less experience in a Formula 1 car than Van der Garde.
 
Tom
On the flip-side, Sauber arguing that it could result in 'serious injury' or 'death' putting Giedo in the car is a relatively poor excuse - the case of Jules Bianchi and Luiz Razia in 2013 is enough to argue against that, especially when Bianchi had less experience in a Formula 1 car than Van der Garde.
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Seat-fittings are done at the factory. Even if it can be done in three days, Sauber don't have the facilities to do it in Melbourne. Somehow, van der Garde would need to get to Hinwil and back in two days.

Tom
I've heard that originally VdG was seeking financial compensation from Sauber and that due to a lack of capital within the team, they were unable to pay off his existing contract, hence why he decided to pursue a drive with the team instead.
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Sounds like a rubbish excuse to go after a drive, considering that Sauber chose Ericsson and Nasr because they had substantially more money than van der Garde.
 
prisonermonkeys
I suspect that a lot of the criticism directed at Kaltenborn has been directed at her because she is a woman.
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Yeah it has to be because she is a women. :rolleyes:

Maybe it's because she signed 4 driver to 2 seats?

Anyway, the problem I've read on other sites is that once VDG gave Sauber the check they spent it and that is why they can't repay him and also Sutil is preparing legal action as well. This info is from other forums though so might just be gossip.
 
It's now two different courts and two separate rulings so I think it can be safely assumed Sauber is the one to blame for this mess.

However, reading this thread I think it is obvious why Sauber never worried too much for breaching their contractual obligations towards VDG. F1 fans tend to side with the teams; The governing body wash their hands; Drivers that follow this path have a 99,99% of it being a career ending move. So, all in all, it's a jungle out there between small teams and not top tier drivers.

I don't know VDG's past achievements and never even noticed him much, but his skill behind the wheel is irrelevant, unless people tell me only skilled drivers are entitled to see the contracts they sign ... respected.

Kaltenborn being a woman is irrelevant. The fact that she is a lawyer isn't. She should've known better. Whatever the result she should be sacked and get out of Sauber even before VDG.
 
Hun200kmh
It's now two different courts and two separate rulings so I think it can be safely assumed Sauber is the one to blame for this mess.

...

...The fact that she is a lawyer isn't. She should've known better. Whatever the result she should be sacked and get out of Sauber even before VDG.
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Much as I dislike it, I tend to agree. The multiple rulings against Sauber tend to indicate that they stuffed up in some way. VDG should never have had his foot in the door in a case like this, let alone get two favourable judgements. As much as it seemed like a last ditch effort from a sub-standard driver when I first heard of this, he's probably done the right thing and deserves the drive.

I feel sorry for the other two drivers involved. Someone is going to miss out, and it sounds like it's Sauber's fault. This could ultimately be pretty costly for them. If we wanted to be super-negative, it could potentially be something that makes or breaks the team, depending on the strength of their finances and how large the damages they end up paying to whoever ends up not getting a seat are.

Unfortunately, I doubt it would be very easy to get rid of Kaltenborn, I seem to remember her having a reasonable sized stake in the team. Still, this seems like a fairly monumental 🤬 up, even by F1 standards. And I thought Magnussen got the rawest end of a deal this silly season. :rolleyes:
 
Soundtrack
He didn't, the arbitration's award was issued on the second of march; he refered to the australian court in order to have that decision enforced.
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I didn't literally mean he left it until the last minute; it's a figure of speech. But he still left it way too late. He could have appealed a lot sooner. I'm not denying he got screwed, but to me the way he's dealt with the situation makes him just as bad.
 
craigatm
He could have appealed a lot sooner.
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Can you point me to some evidence he deliberately delayed the arbitration procedure?

And are you suggesting that the date of release and substance of the award by the arbitrators was in it's hands?

:confused:

If Sauber was indeed complying with the arbitrator's decision (as they should) VDG would't even needed to file a case in front of the Australian Court. But that would possibly bring them down to even deeper trouble.
 
Soundtrack
Can you point me to some evidence he deliberately delayed the arbitration procedure?

And are you suggesting that the date of release and substance of the award by the arbitrators was in it's hands?

:confused:

If Sauber was indeed complying with the arbitrator's decision (as they should) VDG would't even needed to file a case in front of the Australian Court. But that would possibly bring them down to even deeper trouble.
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The teams driver line-up of Marcus Ericsson and Felipe Nasr has been confirmed since November 4th of last year, yet Giedo only launched legal action at the beginning of this month. Are you really suggesting it takes four months to take the matter to court? Last time a similar incident happened, when Nick Heidfeld was suddenly replaced by Bruno Senna at Lotus, it didn't even take him a fortnight!
 
craigatm
The teams driver line-up of Marcus Ericsson and Felipe Nasr has been confirmed since November 4th of last year, yet Giedo only launched legal action at the beginning of this month. Are you really suggesting it takes four months to take the matter to court? Last time a similar incident happened, when Nick Heidfeld was suddenly replaced by Bruno Senna at Lotus, it didn't even take him a fortnight!
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November 24th according to this
http://adamcooperf1.com/2015/03/05/...ber-seat-to-reach-australian-court-on-monday/ and the Swiss court ruling came March 2,not 4 months ago
 
I missed a comma

After the team had announced Ericsson and Nasr, on November 24 van der Garde commenced an arbitration proceeding in the Swiss Chambers’ Arbitration Institution. In it he “sought permanent injunctive relief that would have the effect of assuring the Second Applicant a place as a race driver on the Sauber team for 2015.”

So you were right about the date but it was not 4 months.
 
Well, there we have it...

1bd653ca7760b8bb57c60797e773b15b4c6a92ea476e60e91e2e1e264cd5d43f.jpg
 
Do we actually know when VDG decided to take legal action and what exactly took place in the time before? Otherwise this whole 'he waited till 5 March and then took legal action' argument isn't valid.
 
Pilitev
Do we actually know when VDG decided to take legal action and what exactly took place in the time before? Otherwise this whole 'he waited till 5 March and then took legal action' argument isn't valid.
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IforceV8
November 24 van der Garde commenced an arbitration proceeding in the Swiss Chambers’ Arbitration Institution.
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Van de Garde deserves his money, but not the seat. And with little left in Sauber's coffers, we get this mess. While I can understand signing as much talent as possible in reserve (in case someone runs out of talent or money), this seems to be an oversight on Sauber's part. I don't think Giedo's that great, but he deserves something for getting shafted.

Still, it wouldn't have been the first time one driver paid for another's seat (though everyone else brought money)...the Londono-Bridge saga for the 1981 Brazilian GP is an example. Bought his way into a seat at Ensign, but was denied a Superlicense. Marc Surer picked up the spot and bagged a 4th place on race day.

F1 never really ceases to surprise...gotta love it.
 
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Oh I think he knows; he just doesn't care. Admittedly I was wrong about the time frame of his appeal. Because it turns out what he's doing is actually even more disrespectful. He's trying to force a team into running him, whom simply can't afford to. Does he care if the team goes under? Nope. Does he care if people loss their jobs, and become financially unstable? Nope. As long as he gets what he wants, that's all that matters to him. He really is a nasty piece of work.
 
Funny how suddenly a team of 2 cars has a valid contract with 3 drivers, the one left out of a seat (although his backers did pay and their money is with the team) fights for his right to race and he is the one to blame because his reaction may take the team under. What?

Let's suppose the team has him racing. I suppose if Nasr or Ericksson sue Sauber (and they will) to get their own sponsors money back they'll also become ... nasty pieces of work.

The nasty piece of work is Sauber. And if the team goes under it won't be because of VDG, but because of its own irresponsability.

To blame VDG for Sauber's problems is like to blame Germany for Greece's problems.
 
Sauber took on both Ericsson and Nasr because they need the money their sponsors bring to the team. Giedo understandably felt frustrated by this but rather than consider the fact the team did it to secure their future, he decided to take them to court. Now he's won and he'll get one of the seats, the replaced driver will take Sauber to court, and most likely the team will go bankrupt due to having to pay a huge settlement.

So it's not a great scenario for Van Der Garde either, as he'll only get a few races under his belt before his 'ingenious masterplan' backfires. A whole team and the jobs of hundreds of people could be saved if he just accepted the fact the team needs the money, and that it isn't all about him! But no...
 
Or Sauber gets points every race with 2 cars and after 3 races nobody cares anymore.

:P
 
Appeal under way now. Van der Garde's lawyer gets two hours to make his case, Sauber gets ninety minutes, and the lawyer representing Ericsson and Nasr gets half an hour. He has also stated that he will launch his own case against Sauber if they lose the appeal.
 
prisonermonkeys
Appeal under way now. Van der Garde's lawyer gets two hours to make his case, Sauber gets ninety minutes, and the lawyer representing Ericsson and Nasr gets half an hour. He has also stated that he will launch his own case against Sauber if they lose the appeal.
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Since it is an appeal by the defendant, wouldn't it make more sense for the defendant to get the most amount of time?
 
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