The Future of Ford's SVT Explained...

[Onikaze]

Well, I was thinking of putting the Mazdaspeed 6 AWD system under a Fusion with a squishier american suspension tune, and a squishier american price.

The same with the Focus SVT, that Mazdaspeed 3 engine just screams to be stuck into a lighter body, that would be the most kickass FWD Focus hatch ever.

 

[Roo09511]

A RWD Impala SS would be increidible.... FWD SS Cars? What the hell is that?

 

[YSSMAN]

Actually the FWD Impala SS isn't all that bad, but you have to look at it as a regular consumer before slaping it down with the "NOT RWD = BAD CAR" mantra. The one I rode in was quite nice, and amazingly fast for such a large FWD car.

...RWD will make it a far better car on all levels of trim. I'm crossing my finders for one with a manual transmission, but I don't think its gonna happen...

 

[niky]

RE: stealing Mazdas and badging them as Fords. Ford has been doing it for years (check my sig) outside the US. In fact, the Fusion and new Focus are merely a continuation of that trend... except that they get a little more development than previous rebadges. The Escape is in limbo between platform sharing and rebadge... let's just call it a facelift.

The only cars that would need the SVT monicker on them are the Fusion, the Focus and the Explorer / Sport Trac. The Explorer is just small enough to make a decent "sporty" SUV without turning absolutely everyone off due to gas consumption.

The Euro-Focus should come in with an SVT halo car... preferably with the aforementioned 2.3T AWD, but actually, a 2.0T AWD or FWD might mean a more practical car. Who needs the extra torque in a car one size down?

The Fusion could do with the 3.5 V6, but for a totally off-the-wall SVT version, it could go the way of the SHO, with the 300hp Volvo V8 shoehorned in its nose.

The Fivehundred and Freestyle could also get the V8, but I agree... no SVT for them... just too big to make sense.

Ford is just two steps from building the Falcon everyone wants. It has a defunct Lincoln LS line, and a new Mustang based off of that LS. Fit a new four door body on that Mustang, and you've got your Falcon. And it'll probably cost peanuts to make (considering the Mustang's low price tag and the fact that there are already facilities to make the revised platform).

 

[YSSMAN]

...I think the Fusion SVT that they have been talking about a lot here in the US runs the 2.3L Turbo from the Mazdaspeed 6, but is a FWD model. Atleast, thats what my readings have suggested.

 

[Roo09511]

Oh don't get me wrong, it IS a nice car, but it's really awkward in a sense because it also IS an Impala. Personally I think it and the Cobalt should be rear wheel drive, or at least the SS models.

Back on topic though, maybe the Euro Focus could have the 2.0 and the 2.3 as options, like possibly different trim levels, because the Focus appeals to a lot of different groups who would want different things in a car.

 

[YSSMAN]

If the Euro Focus was to come to the US, it would have to use the smaller and less-refined engines by comparison to it's European cousins. They still say that it will be "too expensive" for the US market, but I somehow doubt that. Just because it doesn't start at $13K doesn't mean nobody will buy them...

 

[a6m5]

Sure they sold well at the beginning when nobody realized you had to keep it for over 8 to 10 years to make the money back on gas. And let's face it: Most of the people who buy new cars aren't thinking about keeping it for 10 or 12 years.

No, you are right about that. What I'm saying is that bottomline, people bought them. Also, I think it's still important to continue developing the hybrid technology. What you are seeing is the introduction to the hybrid technology. Engineers should be able to do more with it in the future.

And another thing: Ford's advertising SUCKS! They never even MENTION SVT in ANYTHING. Even when it HAD the Focus and the Cobra R and the Lightning it was NEVER mentioned. Whereas Chevy advertises its SS line all the time, that's how you sell cars.

I agree 100% there.

If the Euro Focus was to come to the US, it would have to use the smaller and less-refined engines by comparison to it's European cousins. They still say that it will be "too expensive" for the US market, but I somehow doubt that. Just because it doesn't start at $13K doesn't mean nobody will buy them...

I wish Ford could capitalize on the high gas prices and produce a Focus capable of high 30's to 40 hwy mpg like Toyota or Honda.

 

[YSSMAN]

They may as well bring the Fiesta over for that, but don't bother asking Ford about it. They would probably turn to you and ask, "Whats a Fiesta?"

 

[a6m5]

They may as well bring the Fiesta over for that, but don't bother asking Ford about it. They would probably turn to you and ask, "Whats a Fiesta?"

This is so true, it's really sad.

 

[1X83Z]

But what other engine options does Ford have in this situation? They've got the 3.0L Duratec, and although they could tap Volvo for an engine, their 2.5T I5 puts down only 5 more BHP and 29 more ft-lbs of torque.

This is exactly the kind of question that's getting asked at Ford, and it's exactly the WRONG question to be asking. Instead, they should be focusing on a simple word:

DEVELOPMENT

You've got to spend money to make money. Even General Motors is developing new engines. I'm not even going to BEGIN citing examples of brands who have developed new engines, even for model year 2006. Ford's refusal to do this, and their mistaken belief that they can live off the DOHC 3-liter that debuted about ten years ago is what's landing them in trouble. Ford has no V6 with more than 220 horsepower or more than 3 liters (except for the ****ty OHV engines on the vans that make 200 horsepower, for some ungodly reason). This is COMPLETELY IDIOTIC because EVERY OTHER manufacturer does. For instance:

258hp 3.2-liter V6 (Acura)
250hp 3.2-liter V6 (Audi)
255hp 3.0-liter 6-cyl (BMW)
240hp 3.6-liter V6 (Buick)
255hp 3.6-liter V6 (Cadillac)
242hp 3.9-liter V6 (Chevrolet)
250hp 3.5-liter V6 (Chrysler)
250hp 3.5-liter V6 (Dodge)
DOES NOT HAVE ENGINE (Ford)
244hp 3.0-liter V6 (Honda)
235hp 3.3-liter V6 (Hyundai)
280hp 3.5-liter V6 (Infiniti)
235hp 3.0-liter V6 (Jaguar)
244hp 3.8-liter V6 (Kia)
272hp 3.5-liter V6 (Lexus)
DOES NOT HAVE ENGINE (Lincoln)
DOES NOT HAVE ENGINE (Mazda)
268hp 3.5-liter V6 (Mercedes)
DOES NOT HAVE ENGINE (Mercury)
263hp 3.8-liter V6 (Mitsubishi)
250hp 3.5-liter V6 (Nissan)
240hp 3.9-liter V6 (Pontiac)
280hp 3.2-liter H6 (Porsche)
250hp 2.8-liter V6 turbo (Saab)
250hp 3.5-liter V6 (Saturn)
240hp 3.0-liter H6 (Subaru)
268hp 3.5-liter V6 (Toyota)
280hp 3.6-liter V6 (Volkswagen)
DOES NOT HAVE ENGINE (Volvo)

Do note that the only carmakers that do not have this engine either make really small cars (Mini, Scion, Suzuki) or trucks (Isuzu, GMC, Jeep, Land Rover) OR ARE FORD BRANDS (though I admittedly will exclude Volvo because they don't have or need the engine, since they do fives so well). So why the hell does Ford, a FULL LINE AUTOMAKER not have a 260hp 3.x-liter V6? It's so stupid. We've seen the success that Nissan has had with the engine. Making one is a COMPLETE no-brainer. Ford is just run by ABSOLUTE IDIOTS. The engine is necessary for competition. Ford simply does not intend to compete. Which is fortuitious, because it doesn't compete in the slightest.

The following are actual conversations between myself and several Ford products.

Doug: Hey Freestar, do you think it's any coincidence that the popular vehicles in your segment all use a mid-3 liter engine with around 245 horsepower?
Freestar: Why no Doug I don't!
Doug: Then Freestar, why the HELL do you give buyers the choice between a PUSHROD 193-horsepower V6 or a 201-horsepower V6? And are people really dumb enough to think the added EIGHT horsepower is an advantage?
Freestar: No Doug. That's why I only sell to rental companies.

Doug: Hey Fusion! You're doing well in NASCAR. Too bad you're the least-powerful midsize sedan in existence.
Fusion: No way! The Kia Optima has 40 horsepower less!
Doug: My apologies Fusion. You're in a segment with over 30 vehicles and you're SECOND to last in horsepower.
Fusion: You should apologise! My engine has clearly proven itself! It was really popular back in 1996 when it debuted!!
Doug: Yeah, but so were pogs and troll dolls. Don't you have a Hertz lot to be on?

Doug: Wow Five Hundred, you're red in that picture. Imagine you still won't get caught on radar since it takes you 8 seconds to get to 60mph.
Five Hundred: Yeah, I wish I had more power. They gave me two advanced transmissions, but the same old engine.
Doug: Not the same old engine at all! Rather than 200 horsepower like Taurus, you have 203! Rejoice!!
Five Hundred: I'm not within 47 horsepower of any of my closest competitors.
Doug: I know. Don't you have an old person's garage to be inside?

Doug: Do you still exist?
Ranger: Yeah, basically, even though my basic design dates from the early 1990s and my engines are even older than that in some cases.
Doug: You got that new four in 2004 though...
Ranger: True. With it, I go from zero to sixty in a hair under 12 seconds. I'm a real excitement machine!
Doug: The only thing exciting about you is seeing a new model on the street - you're that rare. Don't you have a showroom floor to be nailed to?

Doug: Whoa! A Mercury Capri XR2! One of just two '90s cars built in Australia, and you had a turbocharged variant... very cool indeed. You even had a hardtop option, and you were slow but considered a relatively decent convertible in your day. Remember when they made you?!
Capri: No.
Doug: Yeah, neither do I, I was just kidding. No one does.

Doug: Given everything we've just heard - I mean, Capri XR2 doesn't even remember being made - does it upset you to be associated with this trash?
Mustang: Yeah, I wish I were a Chevy.
Doug: Hmm. Aren't they sort of your arch-rival?
Mustang: Screw that. At least they have a few decent products on their lot.
Doug: And Ford, not so much?
Mustang: Put it this way: Ford actually thinks the 2006 Explorer qualifies as a "redesign."
Doug: I can see the problem. And you're better than all Fords then?
Mustang: Even the V6/automatic version of me is better than any other product Ford has offered within the last decade, with the exception of the GT.

You heard it here first: Mustang wants to be a Chevrolet, Capri XR2 can't remember being produced, and even Freestar doesn't understand its engine options.

 

[a6m5]

I certainly hope that they are capable of consistently designing engines that can compete, but I agree. Their smaller engines are usually outdated, or just plain lame. I think I'm still traumatized by the Ford 3.0 liter V-6.

Edit: I like your editing job.

 

[GT4_Rule]

SVT is too good to kill. I'm just glad that Ford didn't kill it.

Btw that conversation is pretty good.

 

[1X83Z]

Edit: I like your editing job.

Can't come off as too serious... but I am simply disgusted with this brand.

One positive I do see from Ford is styling. There hasn't been an ugly Ford product in a long time, and the products even seem to be styled in order to fill whatever niche they're intended to fill - like the Lincoln Zephyr actually looks like a player in the premium midsize game, and the F-150 looks like a big but driveable pickup, the Fusion looks like a competent midsize sedan, and the Mustang looks like a hot rod. The only problem is, these vehicles are consistently let down by engines and pricing. Consistently.

 

[a6m5]

The only problem is, these vehicles are consistently let down by engines and pricing. Consistently.

I think they are above average on designs, sometimes excellent, but you don't like their pricing? I think Focus, Fusion, Mustangs are priced pretty low. I thought the rest of the lineup were OK too..........

 

[1X83Z]

I think they are above average on designs, sometimes excellent, but you don't like their pricing? I think Focus, Fusion, Mustangs are priced pretty low. I thought the rest of the lineup were OK too..........

I don't like two things about Ford pricing:

1. They're too high given the engine sizes. But I discussed that enough above.
2. Options. More things should be standard. Examples: there is not one single Ford Fusion with standard anti-lock brakes. Not one. Nor is there a Fusion with standard side airbags. Standard 6-CD? Yeah, on the top-spec model. Auto climate too. But safety features? Pah. Even General Motors is smart enough to realize buyers want that stuff. Also, the Freestar hasn't got side airbags on any model including the Limited, with power doors and tri-zone auto climate which lists for $29600. Even if you pay that much you STILL have to pay extra for an alarm, side airbags, and a floor console. What?! Final example: Five Hundred Limited, $28200. Lacks side airbags and traction control. Totally inappropriate.

So pricing is a problem because you're seeing a nice base price, except you come to the dealer and it's $4k more because no-one wants leather, a sunroof, heated seats, 6-CD, a navigation system, a backup sensor, curtain side airbags, and hubcaps. And that might be an exaggeration, but you get the idea.

 

[a6m5]

I thought their options were priced reasonably, but that was for Focus. Yeah, your examples are kind of shocking to be honest. Couple of things that I can't believe about Ford cars: 1) They still have the screw-on antennas that breaks off in the carwash. My last two cars get great receptions from the antenna built-in in the rear windshield. 2) Still no remote fuel doors! How cheap are you!

 

[YSSMAN]

Great post M5Power!

...Maybe you should start a thread in the "Cars in General" section entitled "Conversations with Cars." That could get really interesting real quick-like. Many kudos to you, and although I can't give you rep points (apparently I've awarded too much to you allready!), you get a Wi-Five from Michigan.

 

[1X83Z]

I thought their options were priced reasonably, but that was for Focus. Yeah, your examples are kind of shocking to be honest.

Actually the prices of the options are good, and they're not in huge bundles where you have to order $3k of stuff in order to get tinted windows (like Cadillac makes you do), but the problem is just that the stuff should be standard. I'm totally fine with paying $595 for ABS, the only problem is I should be doing that on the Honda Civic DX, not the Ford Fusion SEL. And Ford makes a point to make curtain airbags or side airbags a stand-alone and cheap option: it's available on any Explorer for just $560, complete with rollover deployment - and it covers the first two rows, not just row one. But why isn't it standard on the top-line $35900 Explorer Limited AWD 4.6, which comes with more stuff than a base ML320 or X5? I mean really - how hard would it be to add that option's $476 invoice price to the price of the Explorer and bump it up to $36400 rather than $35900.

Great post M5Power!

...Maybe you should start a thread in the "Cars in General" section entitled "Conversations with Cars." That could get really interesting real quick-like. Many kudos to you, and although I can't give you rep points (apparently I've awarded too much to you allready!), you get a Wi-Five from Michigan.

Thanks. When something annoys me enough, I will go to extreme lengths to make a point. For instance:

I am ugly and I will probably eat you.

 

[JCE]

Becareful ladies and gents, because I like to suck things.

 

[niky]

I thought their options were priced reasonably, but that was for Focus. Yeah, your examples are kind of shocking to be honest. Couple of things that I can't believe about Ford cars: 1) They still have the screw-on antennas that breaks off in the carwash. My last two cars get great receptions from the antenna built-in in the rear windshield. 2) Still no remote fuel doors! How cheap are you!

1. Yeah, that sucks... hey, mine has a printed antenna... oops... it's actually a Mazda.

2. You'll absolutely hate the new Focus. No remote fuel door (yes, very European... ) and you have to turn off the car, take out the ignition key, flip up the Ford logo on the grille, insert the key and unlock the hood to check your oil... how cool is that? At least the coolant is supposedly a maintenance free sealed system... so you won't have to touch it for the next five to ten years...

 

[JCE]

1. Yeah, that sucks... hey, mine has a printed antenna... oops... it's actually a Mazda.

2. You'll absolutely hate the new Focus. No remote fuel door (yes, very European... ) and you have to turn off the car, take out the ignition key, flip up the Ford logo on the grille, insert the key and unlock the hood to check your oil... how cool is that? At least the coolant is supposedly a maintenance free sealed system... so you won't have to touch it for the next five to ten years...

My 2005 Focus' fuel door doesn't even have a lock...it's "anyone can open" good!

 

[YSSMAN]

I have to unlock all of my doors to get into my fuel tank, otherwise it automatically locks when I lock my doors...

 

[a6m5]

2. You'll absolutely hate the new Focus. No remote fuel door (yes, very European... ) and you have to turn off the car, take out the ignition key, flip up the Ford logo on the grille, insert the key and unlock the hood to check your oil... how cool is that?

They are not concerned about people stealing gas from your Focus, but they protect your battery and air filter from thefts, eh?

At least the coolant is supposedly a maintenance free sealed system... so you won't have to touch it for the next five to ten years...

Except now it's going to cost you $150 to flush your radiator. j/k

 

[1X83Z]

My 2005 Focus' fuel door doesn't even have a lock...it's "anyone can open" good!

I don't get why people have a problem with that. I test-drove a 1997 Range Rover this week and it had that, as does my 1996 Volvo. It's not like people are going to be stealing gas anymore.

 

[a6m5]

I don't get why people have a problem with that. I test-drove a 1997 Range Rover this week and it had that, as does my 1996 Volvo. It's not like people are going to be stealing gas anymore.

What do you mean, anymore? It's one of the most popular crime where I live. It's gotta be the fastest rising crime this year!

I guess it's a good thing for Non-Ford drivers, actually. Fuel filler doors can easily be broken open, but as long as Ford keep on making their "anyone can open good " doors, gas theives will just keep on looking for Ford vehicles to rip the gas off from.

 

[GT4_Rule]

Welcome to Canada, where stealing gas is not a problem on our non-locked Oldsmobile

Seriously though, people are stealing gas from tanks?

 

[a6m5]

Welcome to Canada, where stealing gas is not a problem on our non-locked Oldsmobile

Seriously though, people are stealing gas from tanks?

Yeah, they sneak up to your car at night, siphone gas out of your tank. "Locking gas cap" is a hot seller around here.

 

[1X83Z]

Welcome to Canada, where stealing gas is not a problem on our non-locked Oldsmobile

Seriously though, people are stealing gas from tanks?

a6m5 is out of his mind, I haven't heard of gas siphoning since the '70s. It certainly doesn't happen around here. My mother's Mazda Tribute has a gas tank which can only be opened from the inside - not locking, but not free for all. And that's essentially a Ford product.

By the way, don't EVER attempt the Alpine Tunnel Road in eastern Gunnison County, Colorado, in a Mazda Tribute. Don't attempt it in a Jeep Wrangler, either. Just don't attempt it. Ever. And if you do, let me know beforehand so I can write "I told you so" on a piece of paper and you can read it when you get to mile 8. That sign off to the right says "ALPINE TUNNEL 10 ->" if you look closely. What it doesn't mention is "GIGANTIC ROAD-SIZED BOULDER 8 ->". This can be an issue if you drive 8 miles at 15mph only to find such a boulder and then be stuck on a road about as wide as a Mazda Tribute with a 500-foot dropoff to one side. The point being, the vehicle has a locking gas tank despite Ford heritage.

 

[a6m5]

a6m5 is out of his mind, I haven't heard of gas siphoning since the '70s.

I told you long time ago what I did for living, but obviously you don't remember. I hear of this problem all the time. It's making local news. Locking gas caps are selling, big time.

Edit:

Doug: check this out. I guess the article is from last year, when the gas was cheaper! You still think I'm crazy?