"The Gentleman's Agreement" - Forbidden Cars in Open Lobbies

[ERAUfan97]

I've used the 2J a lot, and it only works on tracks with lots of corners, but not tight corners (i.e. Laguna Seca), and it's impossible to drive unless you've driven it a LOT and gotten used to it. Plus, you only get 3 gears so you have to chose between having slow acceleration under 30 mph and a moderate top speed, or really slow acceleration and a decent top speed. Any races under 650 PP, and it'll never keep up with LMP and Group C racers, even with an experienced driver at the wheel. Definitely shouldn't be forbidden.

I think @JKRACING23 will tell you it's very op. He's witnessed it countless times

What? The 2J impossible to drive? You're joking right? Its a very easy car to drive.
And you can also have both good acceleration and good top speed if you modify the gears one by one.

Agree completely

I am under no pretensions to change how the majority of people play this game, merely opening a discussion so that people here can learn more about which (and possibly why) cars are so overpowered compared to those with similar specs

Personally I'm okay with running any car (even leaderboard cars) so long as I get a good and fair race but to each their own.

I don't mind leaderboard cars just as long as the same people don't keep using them over and over. Then what's the point of racing

 

[JMoney]

@ERAUfan97 Use the multiquote for crying out loud!

What? The 2J impossible to drive? You're joking right? Its a very easy car to drive.

Once you get used to it- it'll crazily understeer unless your suspension is set right, and the brakes are close to worthless; some road cars have better braking capability. You have to get used to it because it's so different- sort of like a Red Bull but with a less powerful fan, less downforce, and more weight.

And you can also have both good acceleration and good top speed if you modify the gears one by one.

If you want a good launch and good top speed, you can have a short 1st gear, really long 2nd gear, and short 3rd gear, but that's not good acceleration because in 2nd gear between 50 and 150 or so mph you won't be moving quickly at all- tuning it for a fast launch doesn't make sense because you only do that once a race, and it's better to have good acceleration coming off corners at medium speed. Even with that, you'll be starting the race at the back of the pack no matter what, which is a huge disadvantage.

Or, you can have good acceleration everywhere but top out at 160. This is why modern cars have more gears.

 

[NixxxoN]

Once you get used to it- it'll crazily understeer unless your suspension is set right, and the brakes are close to worthless; some road cars have better braking capability. You have to get used to it because it's so different- sort of like a Red Bull but with a less powerful fan, less downforce, and more weight.

If you want a good launch and good top speed, you can have a short 1st gear, really long 2nd gear, and short 3rd gear, but that's not good acceleration because in 2nd gear between 50 and 150 or so mph you won't be moving quickly at all- tuning it for a fast launch doesn't make sense because you only do that once a race, and it's better to have good acceleration coming off corners at medium speed. Even with that, you'll be starting the race at the back of the pack no matter what, which is a huge disadvantage.

Or, you can have good acceleration everywhere but top out at 160. This is why modern cars have more gears.

You can modify the suspension, the brake balance, and the LSD deceleration to make it steer and brake better. But the advantage of this car over others is that it doesnt spin.
The 3rd gear has to be the longest (relative), thats how you get good acceleration and good top speed aswell. And the engine has a lot of torque.

 

[JR98]

Haven't played in a while, haven't looked at other responses but these seem pretty quick online.

McLaren F1 GTR Race Car Base Model
Suzuki convertible thing
Lotus Elise 111R Race Car
Lamborghini Miura P400 Bertone

 

[apexpredator100]

Amazing how we have all of these unique prototypes and race cars in the game yet you can barely use them online because nearly every lobby online is a street car one, and on top of that certain street cars can't be used because they're too fast.

 

[Z1-AV69]

Crying about cars is not a winners mentality. If you think a car is quicker, get yourself one, learn to drive it and keep it around in case you need it. You'll notice it's rarely the car but mostly the other driver being quicker than you.

On top of that the whole mentality of "but I drive the slower car, making it harder for me to win and ban quicker guys using other cars" leads only to a state of online racing where you can hardly find any really quick races anymore. The only way to become quicker is to challenge yourself by driving against the quickest and learning and understanding what they are doing. It's racing, not cruising around.

[Roadcar vs racecar is a different matter though. They are too different in corner and straightline speeds which only increases the risk of becoming dirty somewhere.]

 

[Johnnypenso]

A creative host can avoid just about all of these problems simply by varying his parameters frequently and knowing which cars to simply ban in the lobby through verbal or written communication. Want to ban most of the uber fast cars? Set drivetrain and weight limits. No MR's and goodbye Elise, NSX etc. 4wd's have too much of a launch advantage in a sprint? Don't allow 4wd's. Want to race big sedans? FR's only and minimum 1500-1600 kgs.

The smarter you are with your room limitations, the closer the racing will be, it's as simple as that. What kills close racing is simplistic limits like HP/Weight only or PP only. After 4 years of working with basically the same PP calculations, you'd think this stuff would be easy to figure out.

 

[ERAUfan97]

Once you get used to it- it'll crazily understeer unless your suspension is set right, and the brakes are close to worthless; some road cars have better braking capability. You have to get used to it because it's so different- sort of like a Red Bull but with a less powerful fan, less downforce, and more weight.



If you want a good launch and good top speed, you can have a short 1st gear, really long 2nd gear, and short 3rd gear, but that's not good acceleration because in 2nd gear between 50 and 150 or so mph you won't be moving quickly at all- tuning it for a fast launch doesn't make sense because you only do that once a race, and it's better to have good acceleration coming off corners at medium speed. Even with that, you'll be starting the race at the back of the pack no matter what, which is a huge disadvantage.

Or, you can have good acceleration everywhere but top out at 160. This is why modern cars have more gears.

It sounds like you have a terrible tune for the 2j since you keep insisting it's not that great of a car. I'll have to set you up with one

 

[JMoney]

Your crying will not encourage me to use the multiquote and it sounds like you have a terrible tune for the 2j since you keep insisting it's not that great of a car. I'll have to set you up with one

Quite the contrary- Ever since getting it in GT5 I've won a ton of races with the Chap because it fits my desired driving style and goes well with tracks I'm good at. I've won more online races in GT6 with it than any other car except the Saleen S7. That doesn't mean it's so good it should be banned though. I don't really know of any players that use the thing as often as me.

The fact that a 44-year old racecar is too good in the opinion of some players is remarkable, both for the technological achievement of the car, and that players want to ban a machine that beats them and that they may or may not want to pay 4.5 million for to own themselves so they can win.

The bottom line is it can't keep pace with the 905B, the R8 or the 88-CV with the same PP in my observations. If there's 3 other real-life cars faster, why are we bothering to ban a car so far down on the speed list?

But the advantage of this car over others is that it doesn't spin.

Incidentally, I was just using it the other day when another player called it a washing machine. But seriously, if you're driving clean you can keep any car from spinning; that's really only an advantage in dirty lobbies.

 

[FiftyBelowZero]

Delete

 

[Normalaatsra]

I just had a PP 500 race and the Mazda RX-8 three guys were using were obliterating the races with it. Thing is, the lobby has been restricted to forbid lightweight cars under 1000kg (probably at that Suzuki). The lobby also restricts tires to CS.

I think there is some range in the PP scale that is broken with a curve looking somewhat like an uncanny valley, cause some cars need their PP range modified.

 

[Johnnypenso]

Quite the contrary- Ever since getting it in GT5 I've won a ton of races with the Chap because it fits my desired driving style and goes well with tracks I'm good at. I've won more online races in GT6 with it than any other car except the Saleen S7. That doesn't mean it's so good it should be banned though. I don't really know of any players that use the thing as often as me.

The fact that a 44-year old racecar is too good in the opinion of some players is remarkable, both for the technological achievement of the car, and that players want to ban a machine that beats them and that they may or may not want to pay 4.5 million for to own themselves so they can win.

The bottom line is it can't keep pace with the 905B, the R8 or the 88-CV with the same PP in my observations. If there's 3 other real-life cars faster, why are we bothering to ban a car so far down on the speed list?



Incidentally, I was just using it the other day when another player called it a washing machine. But seriously, if you're driving clean you can keep any car from spinning; that's really only an advantage in dirty lobbies.

You won a ton of races in it in GT5 because it was by far the most dominant car in it's PP class:
650PP Racecar TT at Spa - Top 250 finishers all in Chapparal 2J
600PP TT at Autumn Ring - Top 250 finishers all in Chapparal 2J

It's was out of it's element against the R8, 905B etc. in GT5 as well, but 600-650 PP TT's, it absolutely dominated. Same thing in GT6.

 

[nickg07]

Crying about cars is not a winners mentality. If you think a car is quicker, get yourself one, learn to drive it and keep it around in case you need it. You'll notice it's rarely the car but mostly the other driver being quicker than you.

On top of that the whole mentality of "but I drive the slower car, making it harder for me to win and ban quicker guys using other cars" leads only to a state of online racing where you can hardly find any really quick races anymore. The only way to become quicker is to challenge yourself by driving against the quickest and learning and understanding what they are doing. It's racing, not cruising around.

[Roadcar vs racecar is a different matter though. They are too different in corner and straightline speeds which only increases the risk of becoming dirty somewhere.]

I'm not sure you understand the problem. Because PP isn't balanced it means that car X at y PP is much faster than car VW At the same PP.

This means it's almost impossible to win using car other than car X regardless of how good a driver you are.

This often means the same cars get used a lot as to not use it nearly automatically means you will lose and there is nothing you can do to change that.

 

[Z1-AV69]

I'm not sure you understand the problem. Because PP isn't balanced it means that car X at y PP is much faster than car VW At the same PP.

This means it's almost impossible to win using car other than car X regardless of how good a driver you are.

This often means the same cars get used a lot as to not use it nearly automatically means you will lose and there is nothing you can do to change that.

Look: It might be some car is at some track 2 sec a lap quicker. It may even be some car is like 3-4 sec a lap quicker. But as long as the driver is 4 sec a lap below what his car could really do, it's not so much the other car too quick but the driver too slow. And from my experience online pretty much everyone is at least 4 sec per lap too slow. And as long as everyone is crying about some car being too quick or what, they wont really improve. Pick up the challenge and learn to go faster. If you don't let the quick guys race what they are quickest with, you will never see what is really possible at some track. If you think it's their car, get yourself one and try to close the gap. If you managed to do that instead of finding excuses, you'll also find a lot of things usable with your other car and improve there too. But as long as you just say "it's their car" you'll never try to pick up the competition and find the time, you'll remain slow.

Compared to GT5 the PP system is much better balanced in GT6. Of course there are some unbalanced cars. And of course some tracks favor one car and other others. But overall it's fairly well balanced now. The difference the driver makes - and be it because he has lots of practice with one car - is usually bigger.

If you ask me the one thing currently broken in the PP system is weight. With the current physics the same car at the same PP with lowest weight will often be several seconds quicker than a heavier one at the same PP. This shouldn't be. The power penalty for going light isn't big enough. This problem also exists between different cars, favoring the very light ones like the X-Bow or the GSX-R/4. You can stop that by using some weight limit. But even that difference isn't that big. Remember the Ascari 550 SH Seasonal TT some months back? It was tailor made for the X-Bow, which was of course the quickest there. But there were other cars in the top 50 too if I remember right, even on that track favoring the X-Bow so much. The difference the car makes isn't that big.

 

[nickg07]

Look: It might be some car is at some track 2 sec a lap quicker. It may even be some car is like 3-4 sec a lap quicker. But as long as the driver is 4 sec a lap below what his car could really do, it's not so much the other car too quick but the driver too slow. And from my experience online pretty much everyone is at least 4 sec per lap too slow. And as long as everyone is crying about some car being too quick or what, they wont really improve. Pick up the challenge and learn to go faster. If you don't let the quick guys race what they are quickest with, you will never see what is really possible at some track. If you think it's their car, get yourself one and try to close the gap. If you managed to do that instead of finding excuses, you'll also find a lot of things usable with your other car and improve there too. But as long as you just say "it's their car" you'll never try to pick up the competition and find the time, you'll remain slow.

Compared to GT5 the PP system is much better balanced in GT6. Of course there are some unbalanced cars. And of course some tracks favor one car and other others. But overall it's fairly well balanced now. The difference the driver makes - and be it because he has lots of practice with one car - is usually bigger.

If you ask me the one thing currently broken in the PP system is weight. With the current physics the same car at the same PP with lowest weight will often be several seconds quicker than a heavier one at the same PP. This shouldn't be. The power penalty for going light isn't big enough. This problem also exists between different cars, favoring the very light ones like the X-Bow or the GSX-R/4. You can stop that by using some weight limit. But even that difference isn't that big. Remember the Ascari 550 SH Seasonal TT some months back? It was tailor made for the X-Bow, which was of course the quickest there. But there were other cars in the top 50 too if I remember right, even on that track favoring the X-Bow so much. The difference the car makes isn't that big.

You're making an assumption i am losing to people or making excuses for losses, the whole premise of your post is that people who are inferior (to you) should learn to drive faster and quit whining?

What we are saying is give 2 evenly matched drivers 2 cars both with the same PP and the difference should not be 4 seconds a lap. If it is, then one car is unbalanced against the other (if replicated across various tracks etc).

Therefore in order to avoid over centralising the online play so everyone only uses one of 3 cars at each PP level i.e 450PP to stand a chance of winning the PP levels need to be aligned to ensure closer parity of performance.

 

[NixxxoN]

Quite the contrary- Ever since getting it in GT5 I've won a ton of races with the Chap because it fits my desired driving style and goes well with tracks I'm good at. I've won more online races in GT6 with it than any other car except the Saleen S7. That doesn't mean it's so good it should be banned though. I don't really know of any players that use the thing as often as me.

The fact that a 44-year old racecar is too good in the opinion of some players is remarkable, both for the technological achievement of the car, and that players want to ban a machine that beats them and that they may or may not want to pay 4.5 million for to own themselves so they can win.

The bottom line is it can't keep pace with the 905B, the R8 or the 88-CV with the same PP in my observations. If there's 3 other real-life cars faster, why are we bothering to ban a car so far down on the speed list?

Incidentally, I was just using it the other day when another player called it a washing machine. But seriously, if you're driving clean you can keep any car from spinning; that's really only an advantage in dirty lobbies.

The Chaparral 2J, along with the Brabham F1 fan car, were the only real race cars ever to use such technology, that literally glued the car to the ground using vacuum power. Both cars were banned due to being too fast and having safety issues. The Brabham fan car was banned after only 1 race (1978), and this race was won in dominating fashion by Niki Lauda, and it was against the really really fast Lotus F1 ground effect car, just imagine how good this fan technology was.
With not spinning I meant that its soooo forgiving compared to all the other race cars. Its nearly impossible to spin by overdriving it.

I just had a PP 500 race and the Mazda RX-8 three guys were using were obliterating the races with it. Thing is, the lobby has been restricted to forbid lightweight cars under 1000kg (probably at that Suzuki). The lobby also restricts tires to CS.

I think there is some range in the PP scale that is broken with a curve looking somewhat like an uncanny valley, cause some cars need their PP range modified.

I suppose you're talking about the RX-8 Concepts (the two of them) which yeah, are ridiculously fast in straightline and are good in corners too. On the other hand the road car version of the RX-8 (type S) (non concept) is still fast but not THAT fast.


We should add to the list the Spyker C8 Laviolette... at about 530-540PP to 565PP (maximum) its stupidly fast on straightline.

 

[FS7]

Here's a better idea: instead of making a list of cars that most players will never see we should ask PD to add more options for restricting car selection in online lobbies. Examples:
-road cars only
-no concept cars
-no race cars
-being able to ban certain cars/manufacturers
-being able to restrict car selection by year
-being able to limit car selection to a specific car/group of cars

 

[nickg07]

Here's a better idea: instead of making a list of cars that most players will never see we should ask PD to add more options for restricting car selection in online lobbies. Examples:
-road cars only
-no concept cars
-no race cars
-being able to ban certain cars/manufacturers
-being able to restrict car selection by year
-being able to limit car selection to a specific car/group of cars

What about tuner/no tuner cars? Some are okay and mildly tuned and some are just a cut above.

 

[FS7]

What about tuner/no tuner cars? Some are okay and mildly tuned and some are just a cut above.

I agree. Currently there's an option to prohibit tuning, meaning no upgrades, no setup change, and no power reduction or adding ballast.
Ideally lobby host should have the option to restrict those things individually, like no upgrades but being able to change setup, allowing suspension & transmission upgrades but banning all other upgrades, allow upgrades but prohibit power reduction, etc. The more options the better.

 

[Bhowe83]

What PD needs is a proper PP system that actually gets you a close BOP at each pp level

 

[Highlandor]

"Fairness" in 'open' online gaming has been an issue since the online revolution started, not just in GT (prologue), but most games i.e. FIFA/Pro Evo (sand-baggers), Battlefield (team killers) etc.

If you're looking for fairness whether it be driving standards or equal performance for a group of cars) in GT, you will increase your chances greatly by looking at the organised racing available, as it's been well known, for a long time, the chances of finding 'fairness' in open lobbies (for your specific type of racing needs) is not impossible, but quite slim.

GT has been online now for 3 versions of the game (GT5 Prologue, GT5 & GT6) for 8 or more years, the main issues of open lobbies hasn't changed, this is why there is such a large amount of organised racing that covers a huge variety of needs.

There is a whole sub-forum of it here on GTP, there must be hundreds of other small, medium and large sites that provide this, and now we have the community club feature too. Failing that, anyone that can't get there needs satisfied can start one of the above themselves.

There are different methods of creating fairness in cars, and some organisers spend a hell of alot of time and effort to get this, as it is not easy or simple if you're trying to accommodate a large amount of cars into a group i.e. a specific PP for a general group of cars i.e. road or racecars.

The options have reduced for GT6 as there has been a mass exodus, with some 'GT' sites ditching the game all together to go to other games, but there is still a large amount of choice available, both in terms of driver skill, seriousness (casual/fun or competitive), type of event (short quick-fire races, endurance events, championships) and especially cars..

 

[JMoney]

Here's a better idea: instead of making a list of cars that most players will never see we should ask PD to add more options for restricting car selection in online lobbies. Examples:
-road cars only
-no concept cars
-no race cars
-being able to ban certain cars/manufacturers
-being able to restrict car selection by year
-being able to limit car selection to a specific car/group of cars

 

[Z1-AV69]

You're making an assumption i am losing to people or making excuses for losses, the whole premise of your post is that people who are inferior (to you) should learn to drive faster and quit whining?

What we are saying is give 2 evenly matched drivers 2 cars both with the same PP and the difference should not be 4 seconds a lap. If it is, then one car is unbalanced against the other (if replicated across various tracks etc).

Therefore in order to avoid over centralising the online play so everyone only uses one of 3 cars at each PP level i.e 450PP to stand a chance of winning the PP levels need to be aligned to ensure closer parity of performance.

I'm thinking about some discussion here a while back about which is the fastest 550ss car around the Nordschleife: https://www.gtplanet.net/forum/threads/best-550pp-road-car-in-gt6.307927/#post-9609216

A racing buddy who unfortunately doesn't race very much anymore tested a lot of cars back then and he had the speed too. His conclusion was, there are 20-30 cars within 2-3 sec, which in his case meant somewhere around 6.45 with a standing start. He found the Miura ridiculous, because he did 6.39 without much effort. My issue is, if you go to such rooms today, you'll hardly find a room where anyone can do a lap in less than 7 minutes. And my point is: If you do 7.05 in whatever, you shouldn't complain about some imba-car because that is not your problem.

The problem with "evenly matched drivers" is you never know. It's always an assumption and as such very prone to avoiding the acceptance the other is indeed better. The only way to find out is take his car and try to match it. On top you will learn a lot from such challenges.

 

[tankuroded]

Does the TS030 count? I've seen that car many times in racing car seasonal leaderboards and "free for all" races in the Open Lobby.

I would like to link a relevant TV Tropes entry: http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/ComplacentGamingSyndrome (which I mentioned as an example in Gran Turismo's YMMV page).

A more relevant example would be in fighting games. In Marvel vs Capcom 2 you either pick MSP (Magneto/Sentinel/Psylocke) to be competitive; if you don't, you must include Cable (Nathan Summers) in your roster and master Air Hyper Viper Beam.

 

[claudiorz]

It really depends on the track. Cars like the X-BOW are great in most modern day tracks like Suzuka or Nürburgring GP but suck at the Nordschleife, La Sarthe or Mount Panorama.

As for cars that work well in both kinds of tracks, Miura is fastest than anything else between 500 and 550pp. I have hardly ever driven it, but I was able to beat my lap time record around the Nordschleife at 550pp, sport soft tyres, real grip & slipstream by 3.5 seconds. In my first full lap after 20 mins of tuning it.

RX500 is another beast. A little faster with racing tyres than the Miura but a little slower with sports for me due to worse traction. RX8 Concept is way overpowered too... there are many more, all of them have alredy been said I think.

EDIT: forgot to comment on the DOME ZERO at 500pp. 300 km/h at the bridge of the back straight of the Nordschleife with no nitro, and it delivers in the bends too. Just ridiculous.

 

[trustjab]

Most lobbies I see are 500pp road cars at Sierra. The usual dominant car is the Suzuki gsx-r. If thats ruled out by the room, it becomes the Elise 111R. Even if thats ruled out, it goes RX8 prototype. If you drop those 3, the Ford Focus pops up. Its those 4 that are top. The Lamborghini Miura is close to them, but its more dominant toward the 530+ pp range.

 

[NixxxoN]

Most lobbies I see are 500pp road cars at Sierra. The usual dominant car is the Suzuki gsx-r. If thats ruled out by the room, it becomes the Elise 111R. Even if thats ruled out, it goes RX8 prototype. If you drop those 3, the Ford Focus pops up. Its those 4 that are top. The Lamborghini Miura is close to them, but its more dominant toward the 530+ pp range.

True, and I would add other cars like the Dino, the Dome Zero and the FT86 Concept '09 and '10

 

[Mr Grumpy]

Throw some weight / bhp restrictions into the mix & see how many people leave or complain about their special cars not being fast anymore.

 

[apexpredator100]

So I wonder what cars in the game aren't overpowered for their PP, but still delivers on the track.

 

[trustjab]

Throw some weight / bhp restrictions into the mix & see how many people leave or complain about their special cars not being fast anymore.

Most all of them.

True, and I would add other cars like the Dino, the Dome Zero and the FT86 Concept '09 and '10

The Ferrari GTO is another car thats a popular choice. Very high top speed.