The German Olympic Sports Confederation President Doesn't Believe Esports Exist

Discussion in 'Console & PC Gaming' started by GTPNewsWire, Jan 31, 2019.

  1. Tornado

    Tornado

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    And my point was to ask what the significance of the comparison was supposed to be.

    My issue with this defense of it is that professional gaming competitions (televised, even!) existed for literally decades before big racing game developers started throwing money at it; and most of them were and still are much closer to VBR's description (exaggerated though it is) than they are of super elite racing game players going through physically exhausting trials at Gran Turismo Sport events like people are bringing up in this thread. At this point in time those types of events are almost significantly more popular as well, though I don't care enough to try and find numbers to that effect.



    If the default context people on this forum had for competitive gaming was instead something like Pokemon, Counter Strike, Street Fighter or Dota 2, I have little doubt there wouldn't be nearly as much insistence that E-Sports are directly comparable to events already in the Olympics. Indeed, some of the posts to this point have acted like the guy specifically singled out racing games for his ire, as if they were the extent of what E-Sports are.
     
    Last edited: Jan 31, 2019
  2. killerjimbag

    killerjimbag

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    Yeah try 2 hours of Hockey. Please E-Sports. You have to be kidding me. Hell might as well call darts a sport too.
     
  3. potvinsuks

    potvinsuks

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    Yes, I know, hence my answer to your question. Does my answer satisfy you now? Or we can just continue going around in circles like this :).

    Umm, you picked the WRONG guy to use that analogy on mate :).

    The ONLY thing other then my family n friends that I love more in life is the game of Hockey.. Yes, even Motorsport and Sim Racing are second to Hockey.:lol: I've also played the game on many levels for over 42 years so I know what it can take to play that game.

    However, to dis-respect Sim Racing and or, E-Sports in general as not being Hockey enough or Football enough is absurd.

    First off, this is E-Sports and it is not looking to take the place of your traditional Sports. So you're really comparing apples and oranges here.

    You may not like the idea of E-Sports as being a real sport but, call it whatever you like the figures don't lie. This is a industry that is on the up and up.
     
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  4. Tornado

    Tornado

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    Except you didn't answer the question and in fact still have not done so, so no.



    I'll try again: What is the actual basis of comparison between car-based events (or, as you originally phrased it, motorization) and events focused around shooting targets that causes one to be a natural extension of the other? It is not at all evident so far, so simply acting as if it was tautological accomplishes nothing to explain whatever your point is supposed to be.
     
  5. potvinsuks

    potvinsuks

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    It was argued motorization does not belong in the Olympics when in fact, there are combustible devices already being used like guns..
     
  6. Tornado

    Tornado

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    Since Olympic guns and bows are not, in fact, motorized devices (and some of the guns don't even use a chemical process to begin with to fire), the basis of comparison still is not self-evident.


    If the argument is supposed to be that they both require a level of equipment higher than that of stick and ball games and thus introduces a level of chance outside the participant's control, the comparison more then falls flat considering a car is an infinitely more complex device to control variables for then a target gun built to extremely tight tolerances firing simple but extremely high quality ammunition; nevermind a bow.
     
  7. twitcher

    twitcher

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    I take your point about esports being a lot more than just racing games, and that most of these other genres of games are controlled with a controller or mouse and keyboard. I’ll accept that I was using an overly simplified rebuttal against an overly simplified point.

    However, let’s look at it a little deeper, 3 games in particular. Counter Strike, Traditional Tetris, and Starcraft - and let’s keep this so-called definition of “sport = physical exertion” in mind when doing so.

    Counter Strike is arguably one of the oldest and “hard core” competative games that have been around for a long while, which implies the people competing at the top of the game are competing at an extremely high level. If you ever watch pro CS games, some things that immediately jump out is the hand-eye coordination, the timing, and the reflexes...they are so insanely next level. There is no way that you can argue that the reflexes of a pro CS player are not on par with the reflexes of any pro athlete from any sport. Remember, no one is playing Counter Strike telepathically, so those reflexes are physical reactions. So going by the definition of “sport = physical exertion”, CS would count as a sport, not just an e-sport.

    Tetris is probably the oldest game that has a competative scene, using the original Tetris that came out on NES as the platform for competitions. Within this community, there is a practice used by some players that has come to be known as “hyper taping”. I can’t really explain it, it look it up, and then try to explain that’s not physical exertion, therefor making Tetris a sport.

    Last, Starcraft. A real time strategy game? How much physical exertion can there be? Well, if you watch pro level Starcraft matches, such as the world finals played at Blizzcon, you’ll notice a little meter on the screen for each player that says APM. APM stands for Actions Per Minute, and in top level Starcraft, players average around 300 actions per minute. That’s average though, and it’s not at all uncommon for APM to spike to over 800. Yes, many of those actions are mouse clicks and keyboard strokes, but those are all physical actions, and they’re doing them at a rapid pace. So again, going off of “sport = physical exertion”, Starcraft would count as a sport.

    Again, I’m not taking the position that any of these games should be in the olympics. What I’m saying is that using a dictionary definition of the word “sport” to determine what should and shouldn’t be in the olympics is silly, especially if you don’t follow it up with dictionary definitions of “physical” and “exertion”. Furthermore, like you said, the notion that “gaming is just sitting in a couch flicking sticks” is wrong when racing games are brought into the picture (but like you say, that’s a small fraction of the overall esport world); and falls apart as an arguement against gaming being a sport when looking at things in more detail.

    I also think it will only be a matter of years before VR kind of blows the lid off this whole “gaming isn’t physical, it doesn’t belong in the olympics” arguement, but we’ll just have to wait and see.


    ——
    A general point regarding car racing not being in the olympics.

    If Sailing, Equestrian, Shooting, and Bobsledding are in the olympics, I don’t understand why motorsport couldn’t be.

    In sailing, a human controls a device that harnesses wind energy. In Equestrian, a human controls an animal (a device) that convert chemical energy into kinetic energy. In Bobsledding, a human controls a device that converts gravitational potential energy to kinetic energy. In shooting, a human controls a device that converts chemical energy into kinetic energy.

    So on the most basic level of what those sports are, they’re no different from motorsport, where a human controls a device that converts chemical energy into kinetic energy.

    Furthermore, what about a car that didn’t use an internal combustion engine? If you can have a wind powered boat, or a grain powered horse in the olympics, why couldn’t you have a solar powered car in the olympics?
     
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  8. Cristobal1234

    Cristobal1234

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    In a sport there are risks of receiveng serious injuries in contrast to E-"Sports"

    For example

    - In association football, a soccer ball can easily injure you if hits your head or another vital organ. Also don't forget those moments where two soccer players collide or commit fouls, in the worst cases they usually suffer fatal injuries and are retired from the game.

    - In basketball, there is a risk of being hit by a basketball ball which is heavier than soccer ball. Sometimes basketball players fall to the ground during attemps to throw the ball to the backboard.

    - In tennis, the ball can hit your face

    - The same thing can happen in other sports such as Volleyball, Baseball or Field Hockey

    - In motorsports there are risks of crashing with another vehicle

    - In gymnastics you can break your legs if you fail to land.

    - In sprints, you can fall to the ground.

    - In weightlifting, you can broke your arms if you don't properly lift the barbell.

    - In Combat sports such as boxing, karate, taekwondo, etc, you can receive injuries
     
  9. Downhill Dino

    Downhill Dino Premium

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    A good number of professional players experience wrist injuries (hand & arm as well), some even ending their careers. Injuries do exist in e-sports just not really big ones. I imagine you're going to dismiss this because no one is dying or ending up disabled.
     
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  10. Kazuya720

    Kazuya720

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    This is by far the best comment to this! I really hate it, when "E-sports" is declared as real sport. It is NOT Sport! Neither Chess, boardgaming oder Poker.

    These are nice games, which you can play them in a competition with skilled and trained player. However, sport is always physically game/competition.

    The reason why sim-racing is more accepted by racing associations is, because it simulate the real world, even steered with the same devices. Things you cannot say about games like LoL, mouse played ego-shooters and so on.

    Greetings from Germany, dem besten Land der Welt ;)
     
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  11. killerjimbag

    killerjimbag

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    Its E Sports. You sit on your arse and hit a button or pretend your driving a car. Nothing even remotely sport about it. Yeah I played Junior B and coached for 15 years at high levels. No comparison between the 2.
     
  12. twitcher

    twitcher

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    It’s kind of funny/sad to see how many people rely on basic semantics and dictionary definitions of words to try to strengthen the arguement that gaming is not a sport.

    Everyone keeps repeating this idea that “sport is physical”....yet no one acknowledges that telepathically controller video games don’t exist yet. Going by dictionary definitions, moving a joystick with your thumb is a physical activity.

    Again, I’m not arguing that esports should be in the olympics, I’m saying that most people in this thread have failed to provide logical reasons why they should be excluded. Come up with something better than semantics that fall apart under even mild scrutiny.
     
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  13. Crazy Taylor

    Crazy Taylor

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    I do feel that gaming competitively exerts something from you. It can be mentally draining and we'll as physically in the long run. I mean they don't advise to take periodic breaks for nothing do they?
     
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  14. HERE4BEER3

    HERE4BEER3

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    Hmmm,

    Exertion
    noun

    1. the application of a force, influence, or quality.
      "the exertion of authority"
      synonyms: use, application, appliance, bringing to bear, exercise, employment, utilization;
      expenditure
      "the exertion of pressure"

    Those thumbpads don't move themselves:)


    But I totally agree, seeing people play video games in the Olympics would be a joke, that's not to say I don't enjoy watching some E-Sports, they Could do an E-Sport Olympics if they feel they have to cash in on it to stay relevant but have it as a separate competition, kinda like they do with the Paralympics.


    Seriously they are reluctant to add motorsport to the Olympics and they are talking about adding E-Sport.....get outta town.
     
  15. xturboloverx

    xturboloverx

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    What most of you seem to be missing to read from this FAZ article: These old functionarys and politicans only want to protect their cake (finacial support by the government). Easy way to do it is to declare any new (read not traditional) sport as improper and not related to the same values as classic sports. Has happend before (see BMX, Downhill Mountainbiking etc.), will happen again...
    My take on e-sports? Like soccer: can be a game or a sport! Should it be in the Olympics? Don't ask me, I'm neither old nor a functionary... :)
     
  16. Dobermann92

    Dobermann92

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    I don't really care about the olympics, they are too expensive to organize and everybody is taking it too seriously. An e-sport olympics I can get behind, but I agree that this needs to be kept separate from the rest of the sports for now.
     
  17. Ferr3t

    Ferr3t

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    To me as a viewer (of E-Sports), I don't care either way. Haven't watched any olympic events since China, so the DOSB might be right in saying they're not the same thing. Sneaking E-Sports into the Olympics to "validate" itself to an audience that doesn't care for it ultimately serves nobody.

    That said, I can totally see the IOC sleeping away the trend until an independant organization forms to fullfil exactly what they could be working on - a large-scale, international event focused across several E-Sport capable games/genres with an aggregate competition by teams or nations.

    To be clear: I don't hold a high or low regard of the IOC. I'm indifferent to the Olympic games, as their purpose in this age of human history is nothing but entertainment. And the one thing entertainment brings is money. It's a business saying that E-Sports isn't worth it. Their loss if it turns out differently.
     
  18. RodolphoPNeto

    RodolphoPNeto

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    A couple of real life sports based games could bring some extra interest to the olympic games...

    Although, i understand that it's a 3000 year old tradition where sports like Taekwondo (1300 years old) became a medal sport only in 2000, among other examples... so it's like 'hold on, it's not that simple'.
     
    Last edited: Feb 3, 2019
  19. Tyger

    Tyger

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    I think it's all about definition. E-Sports is really virtual sports, and therefore by definition, not a "real" sport (and in my opinion to consider it for inclusion in something like the olympics is insulting to the athletes and participants of real/"regular" sports). Unfortunately a lot of people seem to think calling it E-Sports means it is a sport. It isn't, just as playing Sim City isn't in any way comparable to building or working on the infrastructure of a real city. I think this is what the German fella is getting at. He's saying it's not an actual sport, not that it "doesn't exist", which would be a bit bizarre.

    Why can't we just keep calling it gaming? I know how high level and intense the competition can be, but it's still gaming. Calling it "sport" smacks of "i suck at regular sports but hey this is sport too though!". No it isn't.
     
  20. Downhill Dino

    Downhill Dino Premium

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    I agree. I've never really liked the name "e-sports". I can only guess it caught on because people wanted a simple title to cover everything. I prefer when they were called video game tournaments/championships, longer but doesn't sound silly.
     
  21. breyzipp

    breyzipp

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    For what its worth I don't consider chess a sport either but I know it is one. :)
     
  22. Auditore

    Auditore

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    If they considered Chess and E-Sports not eligible for the Olympics that's fine its their judgement but things get a bit weird when chess is allowed but E-Sports isn't.
     
  23. Crazy Taylor

    Crazy Taylor

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    Is e-chess and e-sport?
     
  24. Moglet

    Moglet Premium

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    Darts is a sport. They have a sport governing body in the WDF. It's covered by sports channels, is defined as a sport in the definition, has kit that is sold in sports stores etc.

    The most they exert themselves is when they walk to the board to remove their darts, but it's still classified as a sport.
     
  25. TenEightyOne

    TenEightyOne Premium

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    Competition drinking, smoking and farting? Quite right too!
     
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  26. Moglet

    Moglet Premium

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    Quite literally farting judging by this *LANGUAGE WARNING IN THE VIDEO*:

     
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  27. WyldAnimal

    WyldAnimal

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    I agree 100% that E-Gaming, does not Belong in the same category as Physical Olympic Sports.

    While it does take a Learned Skill to do well in E-gaming, it is not the same as a Physical Athletic Sport.

    Let E-gaming develop it's own world events, and Not try to wedge itself in to the Existing Athletic competitions.
     
  28. WyldAnimal

    WyldAnimal

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    What about Radio controlled Planes, and Radio Controlled Cars and Boats.
    Should they be considered Olympic Events?
    Operators can now wear Head Gear with a Video screen giving them a 1st person perspective.
    They operate jot sticks on the transmitter, similar to a Game controller.

    But is it a "Sport" worthy to be part of the Olympics?
    I'd Not call it a "Sport" I'd call it a Skill or a Talent, but not a Physical Sport.

    and the same goes for E-gaming

    It needs to stand on it's own, Which we see it is...
    and not try to be part of an existing "Sports Program"

    Here is an example of a Real e-Sport.
    Participants would wear Wireless VR headsets, in a Real Open Environment
    Say a virtual Soccer Field.
    And Play competitively against other VR warriors on the same real open environment
    The Ball, the environment of the Filed, the Score zones, are all Virtual
    But the Players, have to physically interact and chase that virtual ball, that they See in their headset.

    Virtual Soccer that involves Real Physical running on a real open arena.
    With real Physical consequences between the warriors on the field.

    Imagine running head on, into another Virtual player you see in your visor, but it's not just a virtual player.
    It has a real Physical person that you can't just ghost through.

    E-gaming, meets Real Sporting.
    That would be worth of an Olympic entry

    or how about this one...

    Participants would wear Wireless VR headsets, in a Real Open Environment
    a Virtual High Jump.
    the high bar and side Post are virtual in the head set.
    the Warrior must Run, and Jump to Clear the Height of the virtual Bar.
    A real Landing area with mats exists.
    Lasers would be used to measure the clearance height of the jump.
     
  29. HERE4BEER3

    HERE4BEER3

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    I don't know if you're just trying to prove a point of if that's an honest suggestion of something they should do. Why not just play real soccer? That makes absolutely no sense. Why convert everything to to a VR simulation just for the sake of doing it?

    E-Sports are a sport by every definition of sport. Whether your running 10Km a match in real football or moving your thumbs to operate a joystick playing FIFA 19 Online, by definition you are exerting yourself physically, the thumbpads do not move themselves. Categorizing them as "E" Sport is much the same as how they categorize organized racing as "Motor"sport. It's not the human doing most of the labor but the machine. The labor is done by either a computer engine or combustion engine. the point is, it's a different class of sport.

    Does the IOC need to jump on the E-Sport bandwagon to cash in in the popularity and make a few bucks? Probably.

    Do I want to see E-Sports on the same stage as the finest physical specimens on the planet? No, that would be a joke.

    If they do anything it should and most likely will be a separate competition, much like the Paralympics.


    A bit OT but:
    The only sport I could see making any sense being converted to a VR E-Sport would be motorsport. The amount of money it costs IRL is just insane, so a VR rig and racing set-up is much more economical. No repairs, no fuel, no shipping a heavy vehicle around the world, no expensive tracks etc. Oh and not to mention the serious possibility of death.


    EDIT: For reference sake the definition of sport is as follows:
    sport
    Dictionary result for sport
    /spôrt/
    noun
    1. 1.
      an activity involving physical exertion and skill in which an individual or team competes against another or others for entertainment.
      "team sports such as baseball and soccer"
      synonyms: (competitive) game(s), physical recreation, physical activity, physical exercise;
      pastime
      "he takes part in a variety of sports"
    physical exertion should not be confused with over-exertion. Exertion doesn't mean you have to be sweating profusely and barely able to breath. Exertion by definition is simply the application of force, as I said, thumbpads don't move themselves.
     
    Last edited: Feb 4, 2019
  30. SiriusR

    SiriusR

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    Not saying this to prove or disprove anything, just saying something I've learned some time ago: competing at first person shooter-based esports on the top level is a good way really wear your fingers by the age 25.
    (source - a former top-tier esports player from this very exampe)