The German Olympic Sports Confederation President Doesn't Believe Esports Exist

Discussion in 'Console & PC Gaming' started by GTPNewsWire, Jan 31, 2019.

  1. Famine

    Famine Administrator

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    The question was if you needed the books you say you're going to dig out to support your opinion in order to state that opinion in the first place...

    If so, why do they need digging out again so quickly? If not, why not? Shouldn't you be able to support an opinion before you state it?

    This is pretty much all hyperbole and absurd fluff in place of reasoning.

    You cite the Olympics and de Coubertin as though that's the gold standard of what a sport is. The first Olympics had one sport and forbade women from participating. The first modern Olympics had nine sports and forbade women from participating. Were those eight additional sports not sports? How about the 24 added since? Is the modern Olympics wrong for allowing women to compete - is a sport only a sport when men do it?

    As I said, in order to show that it's ridiculous, or that video games can't be sport, you'd need to define "sport" so that it encompasses all things you consider "sport", then explain how all video games are excluded from that definition.

    I can't do that (I'd say that a sport is a competitive game, involving a trainable skill, physical dexterity or strength, and exertion), so I would classify some games which meet the definition of "sport" as sports.

    You seem to want to only think of video games as something for young people to do while on drugs - as if no sportspeople have ever been caught doped to the hairline - rather than engage in any critical analysis.
     
  2. nostradavor2

    nostradavor2

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    Obviously. Changes in sports are here only for money not to contribute to sports. Look at the football, it used to be 70% football and 30% passion and it was proper game. Now is 20% football - 80% social media rounded by 100% money laundering. Just an example, and football actually is sport and not "sport"
     
  3. nostradavor2

    nostradavor2

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    @Famine
    Since you can't define sports, neither can I, maybe my books(and people who commited their life to it) can.
    I'm not stupid, I was competitive athlete when younger, there are many sports you can't achieve anything big without using drugs(well performabce enhancement drugs not pot) . Also I was really good at PES when I was into it and won 2 pretty big tournaments.. Should I concider that as succes in sports? lol
     
  4. Famine

    Famine Administrator

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    But I did. I posted it twice...

    ... and surely the minimum you must do in order to decree what is and isn't a sport is to define what the term 'sport' means?
     
  5. nostradavor2

    nostradavor2

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    This statement came from German Olympic Confederation. Olympic. There are numerous of definitions of sports. So there are sports and "sports". Many new "sports" are just money making circuses.
     
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  6. Famine

    Famine Administrator

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    The original statement that we wrote the article on, four months ago, that started the thread did. But this one didn't:
    That came from you. And to repeat myself for the second time, in order to show that it's ridiculous, or that video games can't be sport, you'd need to define "sport" so that it encompasses all things you consider "sport", then explain how all video games are excluded from that definition.
    Yes, and I'm asking you for yours that includes all forms of sports that you think are sports but excludes all forms of video games from being sports.

    In order for you to know - and clearly state - that video games cannot be sports, you must already have your own definition of sports that excludes video games. You must know what a sport is, in order to know that a video game is not it. You must know what qualities that something must possess and what criteria it must meet to be filed under sport.

    You seem really rather reticent to just simply say what a sport is for you. I did it in my very first post to you.
     
  7. MaxAttack

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    you know, when you break it down, most sport evolved from hunting training games that existed across cultures during the early time of civilised man.

    These games would have involved physical training, communication and awareness skills, and probably a team element also, as humans were pack hunters in a sense. Evidence of these original sports exists, not just in modern tribal cultures, but through ancient sports like the Indian Kabaddi, or the tribal canoe and running race held on Easter Island.

    These games provided proving grounds for the best of the tribe; the most physically fit and capable hunters were more valuable to their society, and therefore more important. However the hunt and warfare itself are variable, it seems imprudent to try and measure your skills against your competitor when you might be hunting a completely different prey, in a different environment, to when your rival proved himself.

    So, you create a repeatable, controllable scenario where the aptitude of prospective leaders/hunters/mates/blood sacrifices (see: Aztecs) can be measured against a known quantity. I.e how many points one can score, games one can win, keepups one can do with a severed head (hello again Aztecs). This has a direct value to the society in question, it is not just a passtime used for self improvement or posturing, it would have had a genuine effect on your position in society.

    This is the basis of nearly every sport in the world, in my opinion, and is also the reason some competitive pursuits are not considered sports, such as Chess. Chess players put in an immense amount of time and training to their craft. The game essentially has no variables so absolute knowledge of the situations that can arise is essential for high level play. It requires a great deal of dedication, skill and poise to reach the highest levels in Chess, but no one is arguing that Chess players are athletes or that Chess is a sport. It is a game. A very, very good game with a watertight meta.

    I would argue that competitive video games don't share these traits. The games themselves are revolving doors, so those at the 'top' of a certain game are sometimes just those who have found it first, or have yet to move on to the latest craze. The focus is almost always on the individual (though there are individual sports of course) and true teamwork and communication is a massive outlier in any game. It is also not necessarily true that devotion to improving ones skill will translate to success, as the gun you just spent a month becoming amazing with, could be nerfed and have its characteristics changed at any point, forcing you to readjust to a new meta, and at a disadvantage to those who simply study and exploit the meta. Anyone familiar with, or who has for some reason spent time watching, any competitive MOBA will understand this.

    I think part of the problem people have when I say e-sports aren't sports, is that they assume I have no respect for top tier players of video games, or that I think there shouldnt be a career or money on the table for them. That's not the case, for the same reason I still respect a Chess grandmaster. It is a skill and craft that takes effort to improve, but this doesn't equate to being an athlete.

    To summarise, e-sports do nothing to emulate the role of sports in our society. The best players are those who understand the game and what is possible within it. The best athletes are those that are naturally showcased by the repeatable experiments we put them through to make that determination. That's the difference for me, and I'm aware this is a clunky post so please point out my gaps so I can explain my viewpoint further. I backed out of severa l points as the tablet I'm writing on is not conducive to backing out of a post, finding a source or example, and returning to writing.
     
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  8. kikie

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    I'm very sporty, I play racing games. I don't have to go to the gym anymore.
     
  9. eran0004

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    If archery, curling and pétanque are sports, competitive gaming can certainly be classified as sports.

    They are not sports that creates athletes, but rather they are precision sports, requiring motor skills and cognitive skills.
     
  10. racezilla

    racezilla

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    I don't really buy the whole Esports propaganda, mostly for ethical reasons. I do believe in the concept that one can compete mentally (see chess) against another human or against himself, but it should be done in such a way that would allow everyone to partecipate. If a videogame competition was held at the olympics, games should be free and open source. No sponsoring involved (same goes for motorsport). Esport is just marketing, and I urge everyone to aknowledge that.
    All the people from around the world should have a possibility; think of those who can't even afford to play on a computer in the first place because they have no electricity.
     
  11. ImaRobot

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    Propaganda? That seems like an extremely wrong word to use in this context.

    That's the thing, usually. Everyone is allowed to participate, it's only the best that actually make it. Sounds like pretty much everything else.

    Um.. why? Whether we're talking about physical sports or not, A price of admission is at least going to be needed to get the equipment needed to even play the "sport" and/or practice it on your own terms in order to get good enough to get to that level. It wont equate to the same throughout all the different types out there, but that's a different point.

    You get good enough on your own terms, catch someone's eye, and from there, it's likely that these things will be free and open source. At that point you'll have enough money that it doesn't matter if it is or isn't. However, everything just isn't free off the bat, no matter what sport you try to take on.

    If I wanted to be a cyclist and enter in the Tour De France, I'd have to buy my own equipment and get to practicing and hope I get good enough to even make it that far.

    Think of all the people with out legs that can't run marathons. Think of all the people without arms that can't swing a bat. All of the people in the world have the possibility, as long as they're able and meet a certain prerequisite for whatever one they choose to go after. Why would you minimize that point for "eSports" but not all the other outlets?
     
  12. racezilla

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    1. Marketing, advertisement, etc can be very aggressive. Esport is one such example. Hence why I wrote "propaganda".
    2. Since most games are on Windows, one would have to run such OS on its PC and not everyone agree with this. This is a form of exclusion.
    3. You're evidently missing this point. I'm not discussing about the costs involved in getting into a sport, but rather the ethical aspects of what "playing a sport" means. It should be totally free of the interests of a company capable to monopolize every aspect of the sport, because as you know, sport are regulated directly from the sport organizations which usually are public entities.
    4. Because what you mention isn't something that involves the denial of human fundamental rights; A disability is a condition that is not determined by a person's status; on the contrary, all sports can be played by everyone as long as they have the gear, sometimes even if they lack some of it (I'm not disagreeing with you about the economical part, but on socio-economical part); think of all the athletes who come from very poor social conditions and manage to make a living for themselves by becoming professionals;
    To me it isn't very important if Esports become a thing or not; I just don't see why an olympic committee, something very "public" by definition, should accept a sport which is based on a product of a company, that isn't at all public. Better, in my opinion, would be to play with something publicly available.
     
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  13. Joey D

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    Not being able to play a sport is not a denial of human rights.

    The Olympic Committee isn't public, it's a not-for-profit private entity. Virtually everything, about every sport, anywhere in the world revolves around money and selling things. That's why nearly every countries' team has a sponsor or sponsors.
     
  14. ImaRobot

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    So what is this propaganda against? How is it any more aggressive and in your face than any other sport? The word still doesn't make sense in that context.

    So? If they are going to want to enter, these will likely be the requirements in doing so. It has to be a level playing field with the equipment given and/or used. They have to agree with it, just like any other sport.

    Or are you going to pretend this is the only one with restrictions of having to play it a certain way in your hypothetical situation?

    Nope didn't miss it. It just doesn't make sense.

    They're going to have to use equipment that is already being made. The sports teams don't make the equipment, they go to a manufacture that does in order to supply their needs. So within this hypothetical situation it would have to be either Windows or Mac. How is that any different than going to a supplier that manufactures equipment for any other sport?

    :lol:

    What?

    How is it a denial of human rights if someone can't afford the entry cost of getting into the sport in the first place? Not having money to do so is something that stops lots of people for many other sports. They either get noticed and get a scholarship, or they fund their own way and hope they get noticed eventually. Either way, to even get noticed you're going to be forking over money in the first place, so if you don't have it at that point, it wont matter what "sport" you're going to be trying to get into, you're dead in the water.

    Which is exactly my point. You can't play the sport if you don't have the equipment.

    Which is the exception, not the rule. Some people get very lucky starts, most don't. Still, there is going to be an entry cost at some point before everyone gets to a professional level.

    So what's your take on Olympic Equestrian sports? I'd imagine horses aren't very public, and likely cost a pretty penny if it's a sport you want to get into.
     
  15. Silver Arrows

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    Man, some of the stuff in this thread is just silly. Propaganda, denial of human rights?

    We're talking about eSports here. eSports.

    Some people are tying themselves into knots just to say that they don't like eSports. That's fine. Trying to say that it's propaganda, or any other frankly asinine reason is just silly.
     
  16. SlipZtrEm

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    Nope. We're talking esports.

    :p


    So how are these chess players accessing a chess set?
     
  17. Silver Arrows

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    What's next? Practice? Practice? We talking about practice?
     
  18. racezilla

    racezilla

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    I'll admit, my english is not the best. But replies like these remind me why I don't write that often. @Silver Arrows if you don't like my opinion is fine, but don't call it "asinine", because there MAY be the chance that you didn't understand what I meant.

    That "Because what you mention isn't something that involves the denial of human fundamental rights" caused quite a stir, I get. I worded out wrong.
    The "denial of human fundamental rights" I was referring to is the lack of electricity of developing country. That's it. No need to mock about it.

    That doesn't mean that an entire sport itself needs to be under control by one company alone. That also promotes the improvement of a sport, if one can control it, it becomes a monopoly and a money farm and not a sport (which rightfully generates a profit but it is not the only purpose). Imagine if Nike could control, not only the rules of the game (which is the case in esports! how ridicolous) but also the gear! (=the software).

    By the way before writing "public" earlier I checked wikipedia: at least in my country, the committee IS public and it's non-profit.

    1. You don't do propaganda against something, but in favour (from latin "propago", I spread); marketing teams are speading things like pseudo-values, they're promoting things we don't need (and making people vote for foolish politicians as well). Esports existed well before all of this nonsense, why put it in the olympics now? because $$$, not because they care about the rights of some kid being good at some stupid game.
    2. There are many games that can be played on libre OSs, especially shooters, which are the most popular in esports, so you don't really need to involve a company (stop doing that please) in this business. You say "they have" because this is your mentality, and you don't have enough mental openess to aknowledge that there may be an alternative to all this?
    3. Windows or Mac? What are you talking about? I feel you're very naive about the argument of operating systems and free software. I keep writing "free" but in your mind all you think is $$$. "Free" also means "endowed with freedom". If it's not the commitee that control the sport, but a private which only interested is to PROMOTE THEIR GAME, they're gonna control the whole sport! And that's never going to happen in the olympics!
    4. See above, first paragraph
    5. I should have said "some" gear. Kinda like, you can play football with your friend in an open field, stick some poles in the ground, ta-da! you can do it too. If you don't hsve electricity how you're gonna do your fancy esports?
    6. This is the RULE! Not the exception. You should put yourself in the shoes of everyone, you think most people are living in a good condition? think again!
    7. Equastrian sports never made sense to me. I don't have an opinion about whether it should stay or not.
    By buying 1 million dollar chess sets? :lol:
     
  19. Northstar

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    There seems to be a good amount of hypocrisy here considering you don't seem willing to consider alternatives yourself.

    Anyways, with that out of the way...

    There's quite a bit of propaganda against lots of things. WWII provided lots of examples, but most are not appropriate for this forum due to the obscene levels of racism (it wasn't just the Nazi's either, the U.S. printed alot of anti-Japan material).

    And what does LibreOS run on? Because if it runs on one of those computer thingamajigs this doesn't really do anything to further your point.

    Probably because all of the "free" software still requires a computer, which is not something that is usually cheap. Especially if you are wanting to play games.

    And if you don't have a ball?
     
  20. Joey D

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    Nearly every sport is under the control of a company, In America, the NFL, MLB, NHL, MLS, and NBA are all companies. Worldwide, FIFA is a company and a shady one at that. The FIA is similar too for motorsports. Unless the sport is sanctioned by a government, chances are it's a company. That company could still be non-profit, not-for-profit, or for-profit though.

    I'm not sure what country you're from, but I could see a locally based Olympic committee being supported by the government. As a whole though, the International Olympic Committee is a private, not-for-profit entity that's worth something like $4 billion.
     
  21. ImaRobot

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    Oh so is that’s what all the racist propaganda during our World Wars was about? I never would have thought it was for them. Well, today I learned.

    Sounds like most professional level sports.


    I didn’t know that. Mind pointing me towards the company that sells a product that allows me to play those in the first place?

    What alternative was that again, was it that one where you said it shouldn’t be a part of it at all? That’s not an alternative. That’s taking away the alternative.

    Yadda yadda yadda mental openness something something?

    Well how else are they going to use that free software, silly :p

    In response to what? This has no context so I have no idea what any of these other numbered points you’re referring to, nor what you’re responding to.

    Probably buy the necessary things to allow me to do the task at hand. Kind of like you would in order to play sports at a competitive level.

    Fancy eSports? :lol:


    Umm... what? If it’s the rule than you’re actually saying that the vast, vast majority of people that play sports at an Olympic and professional level all came from poverty stricken backgrounds?

    I think you need to go re-read something back there.

    Well you should. If you have such a strong opinion about eSports and how you don’t want it there because of the price of admission and how you have to buy things, and how it’s not public, than it would make no sense at all that you wouldn’t think of something that is extremely similar to what you’re describing, but is actually already considered an Olympic sport.