The Last Day Dawns.. of the Last Duper.

[NLxAROSA]

Aren't the chromeline and stealth cars locked to the account?

Not exactly. I have the CL on my GTP account, but they also show up in any other account on the same PS3. Also, CL and Stealth can't be gifted. Which is another hint that DLC is not a reason to stop gifting, since they can prevent DLC from being gifted already. The only way that DLC could be a reason is when PD wants to sell existing cars as DLC (e.g. the 20 mil cars, or an 'unlock-all' pack).

 

[JediRage]

Not exactly. I have the CL on my GTP account, but they also show up in any other account on the same PS3. Also, CL and Stealth can't be gifted. Which is another hint that DLC is not a reason to stop gifting, since they can prevent DLC from being gifted already. The only way that DLC could be a reason is when PD wants to sell existing cars as DLC (e.g. the 20 mil cars, or an 'unlock-all' pack).

Oh yes, that's what I meant. The DLC cars are available on all accounts on the same PS3.

If they are gonna do that "Unlock All" thing, I'd like to see the autogrinding elitists here defend PD.

Oh my, I can already see it ...

 

[jjaisli]

Very well written post.

Aren't the chromeline and stealth cars locked to the account? So banning gifting because of DLC cars is not probable.

I don't want to defend the stupid e-bay people but strictly speaking, what if they are charging for their 'services' (read duping or B-Spec grinding or Rubberband grinding). This is like saying that all the money from sale of a game or DLC goes directly to the developer/programmer. There are middle men in between like publishers and retailers who get quite a significant chunk of that money. What if these ebay people count themselves as 'publishers' or 'retailers'? Again, I'm not defending them but since there's all this lawyerspeak flying around I thought I'd give it a go at being all legal.

I really can't answer any of this with any authority. If I go any deeper I'd only be speculating. (Just a disclaimer). How's that for sounding like an attorney?

You're probably correct about the stealth and chrome line cars. The biggest difference is that they're not stored on the game save. They're saved as part of the game data. I would assume if there is to be any DLC (for purchase) that it would be in a similar manner. But I'm not sure. One thing to keep in mind is that visually, all of the stealth and chrome cars are already in the game (meaning, on the disc). They just have different colors, liveries, etc. So if you race somebody with a stealth car online, you SEE the car. I'm not sure how this would work with future DLC. But if PD would sell new cars, how would somebody who didn't purchase the DLC see them online? Either they would show up as a generic car (didn't Forza do this?) or there would have to be a patch to include those cars. So they'd have to protect themselves some how. Again, I really don't know if it's correct. But it's a possibility.

I think the issue with the ebay sellers is that they're not really selling a service. It would be one thing to say, pay me $50 and I'll show up at your house and win the car for you. But what they're doing is using sony's network to send you (not a car but a CODE) to activate that car from somebody else's disc. And in a sense, they're directly profiting from Sony in a way Sony didn't intend. They don't have an agreement with Sony to do so.

 

[JediRage]

I think the issue with the ebay sellers is that they're not really selling a service. It would be one thing to say, pay me $50 and I'll show up at your house and win the car for you. But what they're doing is using sony's network to send you (not a car but a CODE) to activate that car from somebody else's disc. And in a sense, they're directly profiting from Sony in a way Sony didn't intend. They don't have an agreement with Sony to do so.

Yeah, the DLC is on the PS3 for all accounts, my mistake.

How different is this ebay situation from Best Buy charging $30 for doing a firmware upgrade and other 'services' like setting up an account, parental controls etc.? That last sentence in your post about "agreement with Sony" may be it, but did Best Buy have that with Sony?

 

[jjaisli]

Yeah, the DLC is on the PS3 for all accounts, my mistake.

How different is this ebay situation from Best Buy charging $30 for doing a firmware upgrade and other 'services' like setting up an account, parental controls etc.? That last sentence in your post about "agreement with Sony" may be it, but did Best Buy have that with Sony?

Best Buy doing a firmware upgrade is a service. It would be the same if somebody came to your house and won the car for you. If the game save was NOT copy protected than I think you could probably sell your game save on ebay. And Sony probably wouldn't like it but I don't think they could stop it. But essentially what these guys are doing is using the PSN network as a money making scheme. And THAT is against the end user agreement.

 

[JediRage]

Best Buy doing a firmware upgrade is a service. It would be the same if somebody came to your house and won the car for you. If the game save was NOT copy protected than I think you could probably sell your game save on ebay. And Sony probably wouldn't like it but I don't think they could stop it. But essentially what these guys are doing is using the PSN network as a money making scheme. And THAT is against the end user agreement.

I won't argue that legal angle (man, I'm not going to make it as a lawyer eh? ) but if Sony asked PD to come up with a solution and banning gifting is the best thing they could come up with, it says a lot about their competence at problem solving.

 

[jjaisli]

I think in fairness, we have to understand a few things.

1. This game was FAR from finished when it was released. I don't want to turn this thread into a whole PD/Sony bashing exercise, but it seems pretty clear to me that in the months leading up to GT5's release, many things were stripped or gutted from this game until they could be completed or refined. The fact that some of the prized cars don't match the events, the LACK of events, the missing features such as Performance Points, proper damage, some lobby options, etc. I'm very grateful that PD are continually updating the game and patching features in. But we have to remember that they have a certain frame work that they're stuck with. They can't re-write everything from scratch. And some things, depending on how they were coding, many not be easy or even possible to change.

2. PD as a company, just seem a bit out of touch with their own community. Even in a small beta group of say, short and tall people, the issue of car glitching, trading would have come up. And they probably could have come up with some better solutions. As I said in another thread, they're like a leaf on the wind now, blowing in every direction.

And I think people's expectations are just very different now than they were in the past. What people wanted from say, GT2 is probably very different from what people now want out of GT6. I just hope PD realizes and understands this.

 

[Tommy_861]

You're confusing the end user agreement of the game with Sony's end user agreement for creating an account on the PSN network. And even in this you're not completely correct. I can just as easily create an account for my wife, my daughter, my cousin, etc, using CORRECT information and it's perfectly legal.

EDIT: In fact, I'll go a step further. While the software, the game that you're running is not really yours (you own the disc and own a LICENSE to use the code), the GAME SAVE that one copies in order to duplicate cars IS the one thing that you could technically claim as ownership property. So in that sense, so long as the game save is not copy protected, there REALLY is nothing illegal about the process. If you believe otherwise, I'd like to see you try and argue it out in a court of law.

No I'm talking about both agreements related to the game both the EULA and the PSN one both of which are related to the situation. You are correct as long as the accounts are created for real people then its not breaking the agreement, although I haven't read that portion closely enough to tell (and I'm at work now and have about 5 min to write this) but I would assume creating accounts for people without their knowledge or consent is probably against the agreement, so creating one for your cousin etc is likely a no-no unless you get permission. You can't tell me that the 40000 (theoretical number) teenagers that have created 20 accounts have had the forethought of using a different REAL name/address/personal info for each one. Is ANYONE ever gonna check this? No I doubt anyone will ever get caught for it. However if Sony decided to start banning PS3's from PSN like Microsoft did with Xbox you can be sure they will use this in the argument.

As well you are wrong about the game save. The game save is simply code copied from your licensed game disc to your hard drive . If you use that theory than any modification of the game is allowed because the game copies 8 GB of data to your hard drive. We know that is not the case as its still the code of the game. Whether its copy protected or not is irrelevant, copy protection arose because people ignored licensing agreements, so since the movie and game companies know that people don't care and they aren't going to prosecute all these people like the music industry did they copy protect stuff to deter copies. Has nothing to do with whether or not you're allowed to do it.

We can argue this all you want, in the end its not illegal, people here are throwing that word around but all you are doing is breaking a license agreement. For that Sony could sue you for damages (they won't) or revoke the agreement which will disallow you from playing the game (not likely either), or playing it on PSN (not likely but the most possible of all scenarios).

 

[JediRage]

If you look at Borderlands and WillowTree, Gearbox did make some half hearted attempts at removing the ability to mod or make weapons. But they didn't remove it entirely.

I'm just saying knee jerk reactions will fracture the community as you said earlier and developers must be careful how they implement their 'fixes'.

 

[jjaisli]

...but I would assume creating accounts for people without their knowledge or consent is probably against the agreement, so creating one for your cousin etc is likely a no-no unless you get permission....

Correct.

As well you are wrong about the game save. The game save is simply code copied from your licensed game disc to your hard drive . If you use that theory than any modification of the game is allowed because the game copies 8 GB of data to your hard drive. We know that is not the case as its still the code of the game. Whether its copy protected or not is irrelevant, copy protection arose because people ignored licensing agreements, so since the movie and game companies know that people don't care and they aren't going to prosecute all these people like the music industry did they copy protect stuff to deter copies. Has nothing to do with whether or not you're allowed to do it.

We can argue this all you want, in the end its not illegal, people here are throwing that word around but all you are doing is breaking a license agreement. For that Sony could sue you for damages (they won't) or revoke the agreement which will disallow you from playing the game (not likely either), or playing it on PSN (not likely but the most possible of all scenarios).

Tommy, you can not CHANGE or MODIFY the code on the game save. That would be breaking the agreement. But you CAN copy it back and forth, without modification, of your own free will. And this is NOT illegal. And it is NOT breaking the user agreement.

 

[VBR]

"A game is defined by it's rules, if you step outside the rules you are no longer playing the game & therefore cannot possibly win."

This is true of all games & sports, including all the various forms of motor sport from F1 to NASCAR. However, GT5 has no rules therefore you cannot cheat! This is GT's biggest single failing in imo, that there is no flag system or champoinship structure in which to race, we just get cars, tracks unrealistic penalties & credits.

Rammers aren't cheating in GT5 online, because there is no rule that says you can't ram, likewise dupers aren't cheating either in GT5 because once again there is no rule saying you can't dupe! If PD want to stop duping then they'll have to find ways to stop or limit them, but the 1,000,000 gift car restriction won't stop them & will just punish regular users more.

The only way to stop duping is to digitally tag gifted cars with the PSN ID it was sent from & then have a system in place where a gifted car is blocked from ever being sent back to the original sender. You'll aslo need to have a more extensive borrow feature than the six cars we have at the moment, it would be better to be able to choose between permanently gifting cars or just lending them, simples. If a lended car comes back & a duper has deleted & reinstalled their game data, then each car could also have it's own code number aswell as the PSN ID of the lender, which is stored transparently in your online GT5 profile & will automatically delete any duped cars when you're online, simples.

 

[jjaisli]

The only way to stop duping is to digitally tag gifted cars with the PSN ID it was sent from & then have a system in place where a gifted car is blocked from ever being sent back to the original sender.

I'm not sure this is even really possible. We're not really 'sending' cars to each other with the Gift option. All that's happening is a code is being transmitted which unlocks THAT car from YOUR disc with that color/options/setup, etc. As far as I can tell, in that sense, the gifting and borrowing options are almost the same. The only difference is (1) borrowing is temporary and (2) you can't make any permanent changes to the car.

My guess is that after this whole ruckus, Sony and PD decided this was a better option. It would not surprise me to see the gifting option gone from GT6 and replaced by a more sophisticated borrowing scheme.

Of course, it wouldn't surprise me if people started putting themselves on eBay, offering to put their cars up for borrow...with a fee.

 

[sumbrownkid]

The only way to do anything the hard way, is turning off GT5 and earning real 20,000,000 in whatever currency.

Duping was just another type of exploit that can be found in just about every game.

For sure I duped. Why in the hell did PD make cars worth 20,000,000 credits and having that much amount of credits the max amount?

Sounds more of a herp derp thing to do than make it challenging.

If somebody works hard in a video game, and not in real life, then something else is the issue.

 

[Tommy_861]

Correct.



Tommy, you can not CHANGE or MODIFY the code on the game save. That would be breaking the agreement. But you CAN copy it back and forth, without modification, of your own free will. And this is NOT illegal. And it is NOT breaking the user agreement.

Stop using the word illegal. I specifically said at the end this has nothing to do with being illegal or not. In fact the only way anything would be illegal is if you started burning copies of your GT5 disc and selling them on ebay.

HOWEVER exploiting a flaw in the programming whether by just copying the game save or modifying it yourself, or using means such as making up fake names for PSNs to do it, is violating the EULA. The copying isn't the violation the exploitation of a flaw is.

 

[DMC_S2000]

You know you're a really bad troll, right?

so anybody who keeps saying negative stuff about something is a troll?

this world ......

I'm a GT fan ever since but I'm not one of those people who likes everything what PD does even though what they did is a let down.....

 

[jjaisli]

Stop using the word illegal. I specifically said at the end this has nothing to do with being illegal or not. In fact the only way anything would be illegal is if you started burning copies of your GT5 disc and selling them on ebay.

HOWEVER exploiting a flaw in the programming whether by just copying the game save or modifying it yourself, or using means such as making up fake names for PSNs to do it, is violating the EULA. The copying isn't the violation the exploitation of a flaw is.

On the contrary, this is my whole point. There is a big difference between simply copying the game save back and forth and in doing so, exploiting a loop hole and somehow modifying the code contained within the game save. If duping cars involved modifying the code, Sony would be well within their rights to come down with the ban hammer and close those PSN accounts. (Although it would be a very heavy handed action) What I have done, what a lot of people have done, is NOT a violation of the EULA. At least, not expressly so.

This is why a lot of people had an issue with the birthday glitch. Because in that case opening a sub account with a fictitious birth date IS a violation.

 

[NLxAROSA]

What I have done, what a lot of people have done, is NOT a violation of the EULA. At least, not expressly so.

Exactly, the whole point of a backup is to restore it at some point. Any cars that you have given away to a friend in the timeframe between backup and restore WILL be duped, it's inevitable. It's not a flaw, it's a feature (or at least a regular byproduct of restoring a save).

 

[jaycee_xr3]

Honestly I don't understand why somebody can waste time duping instead playing.
I don't live behind the screen, I play eventually some nights an hour or so, and little more on weekends. Even with this "few" time played I figure out to patientlly level up (S.E.'s helps a lot) and using the rewards table (found in this forum) using my races cleverly to obtain cars that help me to unlock another ones.
If you want to dupe o cheat in other way (duping is in fact cheating, is cheating to yourself) obviously don't affect my mind in any way, but please be honest and don't moan if PD cut your "human right" to cheat.

 

[Tommy_861]

On the contrary, this is my whole point. There is a big difference between simply copying the game save back and forth and in doing so, exploiting a loop hole and somehow modifying the code contained within the game save. If duping cars involved modifying the code, Sony would be well within their rights to come down with the ban hammer and close those PSN accounts. (Although it would be a very heavy handed action) What I have done, what a lot of people have done, is NOT a violation of the EULA. At least, not expressly so.

This is why a lot of people had an issue with the birthday glitch. Because in that case opening a sub account with a fictitious birth date IS a violation.

Exactly, the whole point of a backup is to restore it at some point. Any cars that you have given away to a friend in the timeframe between backup and restore WILL be duped, it's inevitable. It's not a flaw, it's a feature (or at least a regular byproduct of restoring a save).

The issue is in the intent. This is going to open a huge can of worms.

But there is a HUGE difference between Gifting something, then using a backup because your savegame went bad for whatever reason, therefore "accidentally" keeping your car, and specifically and intently creating alternate accounts for the purposes of doing it. It is a flaw in the programming that the car trade data isn't recorded online (or some other preventative measure) so if you did restore a backup it didn't take the car from you again. By knowingly exploiting that flaw you are violating the agreement.

This is nothing new. People have been doing something similar with games on the PC since the dawn of time. For games with only 1 save slot for a profile, back up your save and then restart from that point again if you screw up. The difference in the past is that doing that really affected nobody but your own playtime, so as much as they didn't want people to do that, it wasn't worth the time/effort/money to stop it. Just like "copy protection" on old PC games which required finding a word on a page in a manual. They knew anyone could just photocopy it, but its just a deterrent, to go much further (especially at that time/tech level) becomes not cost effective.

Now this has the potential to affect others play by flooding the world with cars that PD intended in the game design to be exclusive. They tried to put controls in the game (remember originally you couldn't back up your save file probably for this very reason) that failed as they naively believed people were just looking to back up their save games so they lifted the restriction. To try to appease both the people who are pissed off everyone and their mom has an X2010, and the people who legitimately want to back up their game, they have (or will) add a new restriction, maybe its just a precursor to a better one like keeping the gift data online so that you lose the car even if you go from a backup, but thats just not ready yet.

Pretending you're the same as someone who doesn't know any better than how it works is no justification. If you overhear at a business meeting that your company is going to tank tomorrow so you short sell 10,000 shares based on that info, Then your friend who just has a bad feeling does the same thing, you're the one whos gonna get locked up. I know this is an extreme example but playing dumb is no excuse.

Finally I'm not condemning you for playing the game however you want, I'm just tired of these threads of people trying to justify their actions as if you stole some diamonds but need a legal loophole to get out of it. You did it, big deal, I don't think you're gonna go to hell for it, and based on the rampant much worse cheating in other games you're not gonna get banned from PSN for it like MS did on the Xbox either. Trying to justify yourself through crafty wordsmithing of the EULA is not gonna make the price of coffee any cheaper, or change the fact that PD can do whatever they want to keep the game experience how they intended it.

 

[curtis_boy]

Took me 10 minutes to get that same Ferrari with the birthday glitch....

 

[Felix]

As long as it does not effect other users in a negative way I honestly do not see what all the fuss is about.

 

[jjaisli]

The issue is in the intent. This is going to open a huge can of worms.

But there is a HUGE difference between Gifting something, then using a backup because your savegame went bad for whatever reason, therefore "accidentally" keeping your car, and specifically and intently creating alternate accounts for the purposes of doing it. It is a flaw in the programming that the car trade data isn't recorded online (or some other preventative measure) so if you did restore a backup it didn't take the car from you again. By knowingly exploiting that flaw you are violating the agreement.

Well...yes and no. I'm not sure that really and truly qualifies as violating the agreement. The wording and the situation is vague enough that it could be argued either way. I'm sure you feel it's intellectually dishonest to make that claim. As much as you don't want to talk about it, it really does come down to whether you're breaking a law or just being a bit naughty. And it's probably a bit of grey area in between. However, your point is taken. It's Sony's agreement. If they feel it's being violated and it's in their interest to do so, they'll take action. In THAT sense, it's not really a matter of being legal or not.

They tried to put controls in the game (remember originally you couldn't back up your save file probably for this very reason) that failed as they naively believed people were just looking to back up their save games so they lifted the restriction. To try to appease both the people who are pissed off everyone and their mom has an X2010...

Here we disagree. PD is probably annoyed at what's taking place. But I doubt Sony cares one way or the other. They're a big corporation. The only thing they really care about are corporate profits. And so long it's not costing them money... As I said, I believe the more likely concern was potential DLC and potential loss of revenue, or legal ramifications from ebay sellers. To assume that PD did this because people complain is probably giving them too much credit.

Pretending you're the same as someone who doesn't know any better than how it works is no justification. If you overhear at a business meeting that your company is going to tank tomorrow so you short sell 10,000 shares based on that info, Then your friend who just has a bad feeling does the same thing, you're the one whos gonna get locked up. I know this is an extreme example but playing dumb is no excuse.

Actually, it's really not a bad example.

I'm just tired of these threads of people trying to justify their actions as if you stole some diamonds but need a legal loophole to get out of it.

But THIS is a poor analogy. Nobody is 'stealing' anything. If those cars on the disc were only available by purchasing them through the Sony store for an additional amount above and beyond the cost of the game, than yes, people would be 'stealing' them. As it stands, the only thing people are doing is ripping off the fictitious game economy.

Either way, I'm glad for ONCE a thread exists on this subject where people can actually talk, debate and discuss this without all the ridiculous and petty name calling that normally takes place. It's a pleasant change.

 

[xmalcolmpowderx]

 

[Tommy_861]

Well...yes and no. I'm not sure that really and truly qualifies as violating the agreement. The wording and the situation is vague enough that it could be argued either way. I'm sure you feel it's intellectually dishonest to make that claim. As much as you don't want to talk about it, it really does come down to whether you're breaking a law or just being a bit naughty. And it's probably a bit of grey area in between. However, your point is taken. It's Sony's agreement. If they feel it's being violated and it's in their interest to do so, they'll take action. In THAT sense, it's not really a matter of being legal or not.

Well like I said, no laws apply here its a contract agreement basically. However I've never heard of a software company really enforcing that agreement beyond game pirates being busted and Microsoft banning xboxes of cheaters.

Here we disagree. PD is probably annoyed at what's taking place. But I doubt Sony cares one way or the other. They're a big corporation. The only thing they really care about are corporate profits. And so long it's not costing them money... As I said, I believe the more likely concern was potential DLC and potential loss of revenue, or legal ramifications from ebay sellers. To assume that PD did this because people complain is probably giving them too much credit.

PD I'm sure cares about the quality of the game experience, Sony OTOH just cares that people are making 10000 fake accounts on PSN. As for DLC, as the pre-order cars have shown I don't think they are concerned, those cars are locked to a system so you can't trade or dupe them. Basically a moot point.

But THIS is a poor analogy. Nobody is 'stealing' anything. If those cars on the disc were only available by purchasing them through the Sony store for an additional amount above and beyond the cost of the game, than yes, people would be 'stealing' them. As it stands, the only thing people are doing is ripping off the fictitious game economy.

Either way, I'm glad for ONCE a thread exists on this subject where people can actually talk, debate and discuss this without all the ridiculous and petty name calling that normally takes place. It's a pleasant change.

I didn't mean the analogy so literally, I meant it more as people are vehemently trying to justify their duping or whatnot on the same level as if they were defending their lives in a major court case. I say, who care, why do you need to justify yourself? And especially that we all have lives and problems and whatnot, some of us chose to play one way, some another. Just stand by your choice and don't throw BS at everyone here about how your life is so tough it gets in the way of your video game playing.

And yes I appreciate the thoughtful discussion and responses. This is far better then DIE DIE DIE YOU DUPER and YOU ARE EVIL YOU DUPED CARS CHEATING BASTARD I BET YOU WOULD KILL AND EAT YOUR OWN MOTHER!

 

[pgzzz]

I am a purist - I wish to drive 250,000km over a 10 month period to get every car in the game.

Therefore as I punish myself by grinding endlessly I think it is not fair that others can enjoy the game in a more relaxed way and gift cars between accounts etc.

I want everyone in the whole world to know how great I am as I post my unverified progress numbers on the bottom of my forum posts.

People from all over the world will say "That rambo_smith, y'know he's quite a guy"

I R O N Y !

C'mon "purists" - take your anoraks off, and stop worrying to death about how someone else is playing THEIR game, they don't give a **** about what you do in your smelly underlit bedroom at 4 o'clock in the morning - going for gold on the Vettel challenge at the 287th attempt.

 

[JediRage]

I am a purist - I wish to drive 250,000km over a 10 month period to get every car in the game.

Therefore as I punish myself by grinding endlessly I think it is not fair that others can enjoy the game in a more relaxed way and gift cars between accounts etc.

I want everyone in the whole world to know how great I am as I post my unverified progress numbers on the bottom of my forum posts.

People from all over the world will say "That rambo_smith, y'know he's quite a guy"

I R O N Y !

C'mon "purists" - take your anoraks off, and stop worrying to death about how someone else is playing THEIR game, they don't give a **** about what you do in your smelly underlit bedroom at 4 o'clock in the morning - going for gold on the Vettel challenge at the 287th attempt.

 

[pay2021]

I am a purist - I wish to drive 250,000km over a 10 month period to get every car in the game.

Therefore as I punish myself by grinding endlessly I think it is not fair that others can enjoy the game in a more relaxed way and gift cars between accounts etc.

I want everyone in the whole world to know how great I am as I post my unverified progress numbers on the bottom of my forum posts.

People from all over the world will say "That rambo_smith, y'know he's quite a guy"

I R O N Y !

C'mon "purists" - take your anoraks off, and stop worrying to death about how someone else is playing THEIR game, they don't give a **** about what you do in your smelly underlit bedroom at 4 o'clock in the morning - going for gold on the Vettel challenge at the 287th attempt.

That rambo_smith, you know he's quite a guy:tup:

 

[gambleboyen]

Hmm... Won't there be plenty of sub-million duping still?

 

[Supercheyenne]

Hmm... Won't there be plenty of sub-million duping still?

Yeah I'm sure there will be plenty of duping but many "collectors" are going to give up since their collections cannot be completed in any realistic time frame.

I'm actually puzzled why PD decided to clamp down on duping. I became interested in getting a complete garage AFTER duping became a possibility.

It's all good though. I'll treat GT5 just like I did GT4. Get a "complete game", quit, come back later and spin a few wheels.... no harm, no foul.

 

[mekonrider]

The horse has long bolted on this. The number of new GT5 users will dramatically slow now and all those who wanted to dupe have duped a long time ago. I've just traded for the last thing I wanted which was a P4. Everything else I buy will just come from seasonals and any a spec events I actually enjoy repeating, I will not grind.