The Le Mans General Discussion Thread

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So this is the future. I don't know what to think of it. It's such a massive change from what we currently have.



EDIT: My apologies. Disregarding the fact that it's now official that Michelin will provide the tires, all else is slightly old news I believe.
 
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There's been some discussion about the deltawing and I don't like it either. Seems so drastically out of place in this series. Maybe if it ran its own races rather than being the sore thumb with a bunch of other cars that are nothing like it. I'd rather see cars develop in the direction of the R18, 908 and the new Porsche prototype. This thing is all engineering and no heart, no history. Just my opinion.
 
I don't like it either, it looks like it belongs at Boneville not Le Mans, I just hope it explodes on the first lap (AMR-One style) so it doesn't distract from the actual race.
 
Since the ALMS wasn't able to work out a deal with SpeedTV, coverage this year has been a joke. You can either watch truncated "amature hour" coverage on ABC a day to a week later, or jump trough hoops with shady feeds, or you're lucky enough to be in the 10% of the population who's TV provider has ESPN3.
I didn't realize 53 million homes, plus 21 million college students and military personnel was 10% of the US (roughly 310 million). All the major Internet providers carry it, plus many small, local companies, like my own Frankfort Plant Board. I don't know the exact number of individuals but even if we assume every home only has one individual that puts ESPN3 availability at 74 million people. According to this article from June, Speed is available for 78 million viewers.

I think it is only a big loss for the small handful that are on an Internet Provider that doesn't carry it.

What a way to alienate their fans. That Scott Atherton can bill this as "great thing' and do it with a straight face, is a joke.
As someone who does get ESPN3 I do feel that the ESPN3 coverage is a great thing. It has been the best coverage I have seen of ALMS since its inception, purely because the endurance-length races aren't interrupted by crap like NASCAR testing and reruns of Pinks. Speed was, and is, a poorly mismanaged network for any series not associated with NASCAR. Add in that I can still pull up ESPN3 and watch Sebring in full even now that the series is over and I definitely feel this is the better way to go for this.

I feel that what we are seeing here is the early stages of where TV is headed for the future. I know people that have canceled cable/satellite for Netflix and Hulu. Today ABC News announced a new partnership with Yahoo News that will result in online special features. Anyone who watches The Daily Show on Comedy Central is probably getting familiar with "the rest of this interview will be online." And Speed themselves is launching their own online channel to cover all the things that they can't on TV. I won't deny there are some issues for the ESPN3 coverage, but those are basically the growing pains of the evolution of TV. If ALMS had stayed with Speed they may have very well put them on Speed2, making the coverage no different than what we have now. Although they only list four providers for Speed 2 right now, so it is actually available to far fewer than ESPN3.

Really? The only other way to watch it "officially" is on ESPN3.com and thats exclusive to the states, so being in Canada I can't get that, and the only other option I have if I want to watch it on TV(I hate sitting at the computer for hours on end watching stuff) is the 2 hours ABC is covering, of a 10 hour race? that sucks!
I don't know what your setup is at home, but depending on your TV and PC you could probably have your PC playing out to your TV for $15 or less worth of cables and/or adapters. My TV accepts an SVGA plug, so I could even set it up for a couple of dollars.





Anyway, I had a blast at the race and got to meet Lucas Ordonez. He was an incredibly nice guy, and a pleasure to meet.

However, I do believe that I see the main problem that ALMS has to overcome. Driver recognition. My friend and I were in the paddock and I saw Lucas Luhr in the pits and I pointed him out. My friend had a blank look. I asked if he had any clue who I was talking about and he said, "What car does he drive?" Then while checking out the cars on the grid I overheard two guys talking and one noted the driver names on the side of a Ferrari and mentioned he was looking for someone else's car. The guy next to him said, "To be honest, I don't know anything about these drivers. I just care about what they drive." That really nagged at my brain for a bit. As I was looking at the cars I heard Lucas Ordonez doing an interview in the press box and so didn't attempt to look for him. As they began asking us to clear the track I noticed that some of the drivers had made their way to the cars. Some people were talking to them, but most walked by without a second glance. While walking wby the Signatech Nissan I say Vernay talking to some girls and decided to look for Lucas. He was sitting on the pit wall, talking to someone with the team, and no one was around him. I went up and wished him luck and mentioned I was a member of GTPlanet and we were all cheering him on and he happily had a conversation with me and the guy he was with even took our picture together. When I walked off he hopped back onto the pit wall and no one else looked his way. I couldn't help but feel that if this were NASCAR I wouldn't have been able to get near him for all the people trying to get autographs.

I think they need to tell the drivers' stories a bit better. Otherwise, everyone just cares about Porsche vs BMW. And to be honest, the kind of guys that will sit around and have fanboy arguments, as if the guy behind the wheel has nothing to do with it, is a douche. I know the drivers and the team owners as much as I know the manufacturers. But it seems there are way too many people that just care about the cars. It reminds me of the failed XFL, which tried to compete with the NFL, but let guys put their nicknames on their jerseys and paid more attention to making it hard-nosed than making the story of the game. No fans had specific players they cared about. ALMS has a similar problem and they need to find a way to make fans continue to cheer on someone like Chris Dyson when his team switches from Porsche to Mazda.

I am a fan of Allan McNish and Audi, but without them in the series I was still pulling for Lucas Luhr in the Aston Martin. Had I cheered on car brands alone I would have likely been cheering on the Mazdas. Similarly, once it was clear Audi was out I was cheering for Team Oreca, because I have fond memories from their Viper days.


Anyway, as the series grows its fanbase the fans are becoming more car-centric, and that could spell disaster if certain teams or manufacturers were to leave.



Anyway, I have a lot of pictures to sort through but for now I will leave you with a couple of all the free swag I got and one of myself with Lucas Ordonez.

Everything is freebies, except for the toy VW Bus. I bought that for my daughter. She loves cars and at 19 months I thought that would be easiest for her to hold. I handed it to her when I got home and her face just lit up.
imagesyb.jpg


And the poster Audi was handing out.
imagejbr.jpg


And myself with Lucas Ordonez.
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If it was just the cars that mattered, then BMW or some other "better manufactured" car would win every single race. Then why did Flying Lizards win Petit in such an extremely close race, even though in actuality Ferrari 458 took the fastest lap in qualifying and BWM was leading by the end--a car that pulled on straits because of its altered restrictor size? How could the R18 triumph despite multiple casualties in a 24 hour grueling endurance and lose in a single moment at a 10 hour one? And what about the challenge classes, which have nothing to do with how good one manufacturer is over another? Who wins those races? The freaking DRIVERS.

Anyone who thinks this kind of racing is just about cars hasn't taken nearly enough time to understand the sport, plain and simple.

One reason I think cars might garner such attention in this series has to do with the advent of the diesels. My honest opinion is that they should run unclassified, period. Or in another, separate P class. Why is it the hybrid 911 that DESTROYED the other GT cars at Seca had to run unclassified, while the Audi and Pug enjoy a class win that isn't even a challenge for them (ALWAYS several seconds ahead in lap times), unless of course they slam into a porsche/wall or each other, or have mechanical issues.

Either that or better regulate the class.

As for ESPN3 I'm glad they're getting the coverage, and I'm not a fan of ESPN. I think especially the American announcers are kind of doofy at the way they cover and don't really commentate well, though the Englishmen seem to do a great job (they're radio le mans people, I believe, right?).

However the implications for the sport are amazing.

As for not getting American races abroad, I think that's something they need to work on on both sides of the sport, as I can hardly ever watch the ilmc races, if they even have cameras there to begin with!

No excuses when broadcast technology is so readily available across the globe. Commit to making the sport valid or don't. I think ALMS and ILMC should follow each other's lead on some of these marketing decisions. Get more in sync with popularizing it.

I'd like to see ALMS steal a few nascar fans here and there, and ESPN helps :)

BTW awesome that you got to meet such a great driver!
 
Hey, nice you got to meet Lucas! 👍 (I mean, the ILMC LMP2 2011 champion :D )


About giving drivers more recognition, I'm not too sure about that. Sports Cars kept what was the norm in the early stages of Grand Prix and even early post war Formula 1 era. It is still mainly a TEAM-based discipline within motorsports. We all know and drool about this:

[YOUTUBEHD]ZhOsDzSJ0bk[/YOUTUBEHD]

and I don't recall anyone asking who the drivers will be.



PS - Besides, I tend to associate "driver recognition" to fanboyism and stupid debates in Formula One forums :dopey:
 
About giving drivers more recognition, I'm not too sure about that. Sports Cars kept what was the norm in the early stages of Grand Prix and even early post war Formula 1 era. It is still mainly a TEAM-based discipline within motorsports.
But as even driving is a team effort in Le Mans it would maintain the team aspect, and could avoid too much of the fanboyism, unless you have two drivers that suck and one that makes a three lap comeback.

In a world of team sports I find it easy to see how driver acknowledgment can be a good thing. I mean, no one with a brain thinks that Marshall Faulk would be as good as he was without Kurt Warner being able to throw to Isaac Bruce. And Warner and Bruce wouldn't have managed to connect so well without defenses needing to worry about Faulk.

And I really think that if people really focus on the car it leaves the message that anyone can jump in the car and win. Credit where credit is due, and the car does what it does because of drivers, drivers can do what they do because a team of engineers and mechanics keep the car running. To think that the car makes the team is the same as thinking a ball puts itself in the goal.

Yes, we love cars, but the truth is that we love the engineering, because that is what we are really talking about, even if we don't use the word.

I drool over the images in that video, but I also drool over an image like this:

5172006143910296.jpg
 
Well put. I get the point about it being a team effort, but so is any sport out there. And I don't personally see the issue with fanboyism, really. It's like having baseball cards of Le Mans drivers. Thing about these drivers is that each of them has a history before ALMS, most have raced in various other series or cars, and at some point we have to realize the talent behind the wheel. There are drivers that it doesn't matter what car you put them in, they're going to win races. That can't be explained by engineering alone, though of course the engineers are just as integral, and IMO the running order of the vehicle is as valid a reason to win or lose as the driving itself. Like was said upstream, it's a team effort, but I also believe give credit where credit is due on the track.

Plus I think it's really interesting to follow certain drivers and recognize their driving styles/racing personalities by the way they behave in various situations. For instance, though Risi Ferrari has had a wretched season, one of my favorite drivers to watch in the ALMS series right now is Jaime Melo. He's such a sleeper force, as the attention in GT usually goes to guys like Joey Hand, Jorg Bergmeister, the Corvette guys, etc. But Melo is such an intense driver, and makes up lost time like a maniac. Before you know it he has a shot at podium if not pole, and he could be coming from the mid-to-rear pack before this happens, too. He is overly aggressive at times, seems very emotional behind the wheel (look at Seca battling with Flying Lizards). I don't always agree with the aggression when it becomes unfair or dangerous but I feel like from following him so closely I get a sense of him from his driving, and there's a lot of passion there. Something the car itself is incapable of producing.

And the same could be said for any driver. You learn about rivalries between teams and drivers, some of whom were at one time on the same team or visa versa. It just adds a dynamic that you don't get otherwise. Doesn't mean you can't still oggle the cars they drive :)
 
Hey, Foolkiller, VERY cool that you got to meet Lucas Ordonez! 👍

Getting close to the drivers and the cars has been a hallmark for the ALMS since it's inception and one of the key elements Don Panoz was trying to achieve. I've tried to attend at least one ALMS race a year for almost 10 years now.

There's something very special about being able to wander around through the paddock area while an active race is taking place on the track, and having cars drive within inches of you, as they make their way back to their garages for repairs. In such a litigious society as ours, it's impressive and wonderful that it's allowed to continue. An ALMS paddock is an atmosphere that harkens back to the 50s,60s & 70s, when fans were able rub elbows with racing drivers and teams, before the days of big corporate involvement, when the garages were closed during race day to all but the über privileged.

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It doesn't get any better (or closer) than that.

So in this sense Foolkiller, I kind of hope most drivers in sports car racing, remain largely invisible to all but the most ardent of fans, and therefore the paddock will remain as it is; open, accessible and free. Just mind yourself and don't step in front of that car. Over the years, I've been able to talk to quite a few drivers and team members at ALMS races. The conversations were nearly always open, relaxed, honest and free of corporate double-talk. You almost do a double take when a driver mentions their car without hyphenating the sponsor. And it's so much nicer than standing in line for 45 minutes for a quick autograph, handshake and an impersonal "Good Luck" and "Thank-you".

Turning the ALMS into a NASCAR style fan fest would, in my opinion, completely ruin the great atmosphere that's existed for so many years. True fans of the series know who the drivers are. And as Hun200kmh pointed out, Sports Car racing has always been more about the teams and cars than the drivers. ALMS drivers move around quite a bit. And most of them drive for other teams and even other series. If the drivers were promoted and hyped, such as they are in NASCAR, you would never get to do things like your pit wall chat with Lucas. And that would be a shame.

Besides, when I'm watching a race, I want to see the race. Complete. Uninterrupted. And having the popularity of the series force a move to network TV, it would be unbearable to endure the cutaways of background stories of the drivers, cooking dinner or playing with their dog. Goodness, it would push me over the edge.

I didn't realize 53 million homes, plus 21 million college students and military personnel was 10% of the US (roughly 310 million). All the major Internet providers carry it, plus many small, local companies, like my own Frankfort Plant Board. I don't know the exact number of individuals but even if we assume every home only has one individual that puts ESPN3 availability at 74 million people. According to this article from June, Speed is available for 78 million viewers.

I think it is only a big loss for the small handful that are on an Internet Provider that doesn't carry it.

I'm afraid here I have to disagree as this is a bit misleading. 53 million POTENTIAL homes is how this should read. For most cable providers, ESPN3 is an optional channel and not everybody goes for the premium packages. Nowhere near 53 million homes have ESPN3, although they could if they checked the right boxes. And I'm very surprised that you of all people would make a statement like "all" major internet providers carry ESPN3. Again, this is false. In my own backyard, Cablevision, the largest cable provider in the greater NY metro area doesn't carry it, leaving the majority of NY residents without access. For crying out loud, it's only the biggest concentrated population center in the whole country!

It's easy to be pro ESPN coverage when you have access to it. And I will admit, having been a fan of Radio Le Mans, I love having John Hindhaugh and Jeremy Shaw in the booth. In the past, I used to watch Speed's coverage and mute the TV volume with Radio Le Mans audio streaming in the background. But at least back then I had a decent HD picture. It's not a lot of fun using an IP blocker and having to refresh a low quality signal every ten minutes.

For all the complaints I had about SpeedTV, and I've had plenty since the year they were fully bought out by Fox and the Speedvision name disappeared, I can't remember a race on SpeedTV where they were unable to restore audio for nearly 2 hours. (Although, I suppose it may have happened and I just never noticed). :D
 
Before I go forward, ESPN3 just became part of WatchESPN.com, so I have no clue what changes that will entail.

I'm afraid here I have to disagree as this is a bit misleading. 53 million POTENTIAL homes is how this should read. For most cable providers, ESPN3 is an optional channel and not everybody goes for the premium packages. Nowhere near 53 million homes have ESPN3, although they could if they checked the right boxes.
Um, ESPN3 is not a premium cable channel, it is an online channel. My current television package is through Dish, yet I get ESPN3 through my Internet provider. I am currently unaware of any providers that make you buy a package to connect to ESPN3. Also, we could also say that Speed is only in 57 million POTENTIAL homes as it is often in a premium package, and even those who buy that package might not be getting that package for Speed. Considering that of all the local cable companies I know of Speed is in the same package as NFL Network, it is safe to assume Speed is claiming a lot of NFL fans as their own. Anything you can say about misleading statements regarding ESPN3 viewership you can say about Speed. They both go by subsrcibers/availability numbers which are based on being in packages or on provider networks.

And I'm very surprised that you of all people would make a statement like "all" major internet providers carry ESPN3. Again, this is false. In my own backyard, Cablevision, the largest cable provider in the greater NY metro area doesn't carry it, leaving the majority of NY residents without access. For crying out loud, it's only the biggest concentrated population center in the whole country!
I will ignore the coastal states self-importance issues and explain that when I say major, I mean nationwide, not just NY metro and four western states. If your ISP is being worse than the likes of Comcast and AT&T, then I hope you have other options.

Here is the full list of all participating providers. It isn't small.
http://espn.go.com/watchespn/affList


It's easy to be pro ESPN coverage when you have access to it. And I will admit, having been a fan of Radio Le Mans, I love having John Hindhaugh and Jeremy Shaw in the booth. In the past, I used to watch Speed's coverage and mute the TV volume with Radio Le Mans audio streaming in the background. But at least back then I had a decent HD picture. It's not a lot of fun using an IP blocker and having to refresh a low quality signal every ten minutes.
I have Speed so I am making a comparison of coverage. I find it exciting to see the race live, see the qualifying live, be able to watch it later if I am not free, never have to deal with interruptions for NASCAR and and reality show reruns, and to have access to the video of every race from this season compared to having to pay upwards of $75 to get VHS tapes.

For all the complaints I had about SpeedTV, and I've had plenty since the year they were fully bought out by Fox and the Speedvision name disappeared, I can't remember a race on SpeedTV where they were unable to restore audio for nearly 2 hours. (Although, I suppose it may have happened and I just never noticed). :D
Just reruns of Pinks. Technical glitches are unplanned and, when possible, fixed in the On Demand version, but purposeful programming decisions to show crappy programming reruns shows a complete disrespect for the fans and the series. Because of the nature of Speed's disregard for fans and the series I would support ALMS coverage on any other network.

Now, you have five months to harass Cablevision into carrying ESPN3. Be a consumer and demand your service. You are in a city with options, I am not. When I get screwed I am stuck. When you have choices as a consumer you have a voice. Use it. It is why that now that Netflix changed their pricing I talked Dish into giving me a three month trial of Blockbuster's new service with Dish. Heck, it is why I switched to Dish and kicked the local cable company and their lack of Disney and FX to the curb.



EDIT: Thought I should add that as I typed this I am watching the video of Petit Le Mans because there are things you miss when you are at the race. That is an option I never had before this year.
 
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Didn't know where to put this, just a curious info, the Hunaudiéres straight (in the UK usually named the "Mulsanne" straight) has been repaved this year.


Video here - Sorry for all English-only folks, but I looked and there's no subtitled or English version.

http://www.lemans.org/fr/courses/24..._en_video_5415.html?utm_source=www.lemans.org


PS - I guess PD should revise yet again the track, should be less bumpy now ;)
 
That Toyota looks divine.

+1 👍

Also, whilst I'm really not a fan of road-going porsches, I'm much looking forward to their return to LMP1 :)

Also interested to see what Nissan are up to
 
Maybe it will be smoother for a while but it's a public road... probably not the first time it has been done, so not really a big deal. As long as they don't flatten the elevation changes or ACO don't start extending the run off areas elsewhere on the track.

If Sarthe is not "a man's track" then I don't know what is. Excluding Nordschleife, there's nothing like the section from Arnage to the main grandstand area.
 
What grain of salt Paulie? This is Audi's official position, there's no denying that it isn't to be taken as "the truth". But the fact that their attitude is so critical (and outspoken) is important. Are they doing politics? Will they risk a standoff with the ACO over this?

Summing up: Just shared, didn't say they were right. Or wrong. :)
 
I still stand by my opinion that diesel prototypes should run in a class of their own. I'm not a hippie (loving car racing is tough to do in that social position), but I don't think it's a bad thing to emit fewer greenhouse gasses and be innovative. Maybe other manufacturers will follow suit and build hybrids/diesel engined cars. Look at the hybrid 911 that raced at Seca this year. Good car. And proven to be fast, just like 908/R18. As it is, though, it seems everyone with a diesel engine is just gonna feel penalized.

*had a brain fade of my own
 
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Hey, reading TT13's last post and especially this part:

... just like 908/R18 ...

I had a brainfade and this crossed my mind "908/R18? I don't recall this particular 908, but why is he talking about Porsche here?"

:dopey:

Of course, a millisecond after I thought "oh, he means the Peugeot 908, of course!"

And then it hit me ... Peugeot 908, Porsche 908 ... how odd in this world when Ford doesn't allow Ferrari to call their F1 car F-150.

And unlike the Ford/Ferrari fiasco (truck vs. F1 car) , in this case, both 908 cars were/are high profile Sports Cars

For reference, the Porsche 908


(open top version)

vic_elford_porsche_908-3_hatzenbach.jpg



(closed top version)

1969%20Porsche_908.jpg
 
Also interested to see what Nissan are up to.

Even though i'm a part of Nismo, I have no idea what they're doing. I do know that they are considering an LMP1 program.
 
Even though i'm a part of Nismo, I have no idea what they're doing. I do know that they are considering an LMP1 program.

They could go in with a Oreca developed chassis since Oreca want a co-operation with a manufacture and they have Nissan engine's in their P2 cars (Signature in particular seemed close to Nissan with the size of their logo's on the cars).
 
What grain of salt Paulie? This is Audi's official position, there's no denying that it isn't to be taken as "the truth". But the fact that their attitude is so critical (and outspoken) is important. Are they doing politics? Will they risk a standoff with the ACO over this?
(Overreacted maybe :)) Of course they're doing politics. Altough, the time that newsletter was released, the regulations were already finished, so I guess they sucked it up after all.
 
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