The Le Mans General Discussion Thread

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RACECAR
I still contest that that having the side strakes as they did before 2006 would have worked just fine. We wouldn't have had those sideways flips if those were there and there wouldn't need to be a fin.
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I find that difficult to believe sorry. The strakes were nowhere near the size of even the smallest fin so I don't see how they would have helped in the McNish and Rocky crashes.
 
Stavelot
I find that difficult to believe sorry. The strakes were nowhere near the size of even the smallest fin so I don't see how they would have helped in the McNish and Rocky crashes.
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I'm not reffering to those as neither were aero induced, I'm reffering to these:



And the strakes didn't need to be big like the fin because they were on the sides (or sidepods as some say) and they disrupted airflow from going under the side of the cars. Had they been there, neither of those wouldn't have happened.
 
Stavelot
I find that difficult to believe sorry. The strakes were nowhere near the size of even the smallest fin so I don't see how they would have helped in the McNish and Rocky crashes.
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Size wouldnt be the only thing that could matter.(F1 cars with smaller wings go even faster than before(well tires and all...)) Just because it is not big does not mean it is not effective. There are visibly smaller solutions that could could emulate the effect of the large fins. Presumably the FIA is looking into it for the 2014 regulations.

On a side note...How pathetic is that commentary lol. If you had John Hindaugh here you would have been up out of your seat! Radio Le Mans is pretty much the best there is. They may not be the most spiffy on tv lol but they certainly do the job behind the radio.
 
Well, using the F1 analogy lets pretend new materials were never discovered and aerodynamics never improved, what you said about size would then be correct. However, let's consider the reality of progress and we can clearly see aerodynamic performance has improved in F1 and elsewhere but the fact remains, the bigger something designed to aerodynamically control a situation is (lateral yaw in the case of the fins) the better it will be at its intended purpose.

The fins look crap on open top cars but they work well on the coupes, it's just those silly holes that didn't need to be added.

Having just found both the above videos are of the Pug 08 crash and the Ortelli Monza crash I'm going to have to state the obvious and say that neither car would have gotten airborne in the manner they did had they been fitted with fins. They both would have travelled as far but would have stayed wheels down (Ortelli would have removed McNish from the race).

Whilst we're talking safety features, anyone else see the open door on the Peugeot? Whinge about the fins all you want but when the door opens the driver safety is compromised on a coupe.....
 
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GOTMAXPOWER
The fin only looks good on the closed cockpit cars. If it works though its worth it. It may have stopped McNish's car going into the crowd at Le Mans last year by keeping it on the ground 👍
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Rubbish.That was THE STUPIDIEST(noobished)move for a looong time!Allen watched to much BTCC?
 
Blaze_409
There are visibly smaller solutions that could could emulate the effect of the large fins. Presumably the FIA is looking into it for the 2014 regulations.
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We can hope, because the car width and length will change (source: mulsannescorner.com) some centimetres, so obviously it would be good time to do a complete chassis and underbody revamp. Despite the extensive studies, all these fins and fender holes are just patchwork.

RACECAR: You would think the strakes would have been the first thing they looked at after the 2008 accidents.
 
RUFin
Rubbish.That was THE STUPIDIEST(noobished)move for a looong time!Allen watched to much BTCC?
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Err what? The Ferrari he hit had just come out the pits IIRC, and he was moving around his team mate for the lead and clipped the Ferrari. Remember in sportscars the rule is slower drivers have to hold their line.
 
Blaze_409
Size wouldnt be the only thing that could matter.(F1 cars with smaller wings go even faster than before(well tires and all...)) Just because it is not big does not mean it is not effective. There are visibly smaller solutions that could could emulate the effect of the large fins. Presumably the FIA is looking into it for the 2014 regulations.

On a side note...How pathetic is that commentary lol. If you had John Hindaugh here you would have been up out of your seat! Radio Le Mans is pretty much the best there is. They may not be the most spiffy on tv lol but they certainly do the job behind the radio.
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It's like the commentators don't even care :indiff:
 
nitrorocks
It's like the commentators don't even care :indiff:
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Actually, the crash wasn't live in the video. I know many on YouTube is commenting a lot about the commentators didn't seem to care about the crash but it was in fact a replay so why would he be very shocked when it was a replay being shown over and over again? :p
 
While I do like the colours, Strakka's car looks quite ugly at the front end.

Corvette- Woah! Yellow and Black? Didn't see that one coming. Probably who I'll have to root for at Le Mans this year, since it seems BMW won't make it. I am pretty excited to see this year's LMP2 battles in both the WEC and ALMS.
 
Stavelot
Well, using the F1 analogy lets pretend new materials were never discovered and aerodynamics never improved, what you said about size would then be correct. However, let's consider the reality of progress and we can clearly see aerodynamic performance has improved in F1 and elsewhere but the fact remains, the bigger something designed to aerodynamically control a situation is (lateral yaw in the case of the fins) the better it will be at its intended purpose.

The fins look crap on open top cars but they work well on the coupes, it's just those silly holes that didn't need to be added.

Having just found both the above videos are of the Pug 08 crash and the Ortelli Monza crash I'm going to have to state the obvious and say that neither car would have gotten airborne in the manner they did had they been fitted with fins. They both would have travelled as far but would have stayed wheels down (Ortelli would have removed McNish from the race).

Whilst we're talking safety features, anyone else see the open door on the Peugeot? Whinge about the fins all you want but when the door opens the driver safety is compromised on a coupe.....
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I'd rather have the door pop open in a coupe than have something hit your face Massa style.
 
InvincibleM5
Actually, the crash wasn't live in the video. I know many on YouTube is commenting a lot about the commentators didn't seem to care about the crash but it was in fact a replay so why would he be very shocked when it was a replay being shown over and over again? :p
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But it is a from a live broadcast though, and even when they first time see the car they don't seem to be shocked one bit.

Blaze_409
Radio Le Mans is pretty much the best there is. They may not be the most spiffy on tv lol but they certainly do the job behind the radio.
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Ironically the other commentator (not the horrible old guy) is Mark Cole who is a regular in Radio Le Mans broadcasts. :sly:
 
Furinkazen
Err what? The Ferrari he hit had just come out the pits IIRC, and he was moving around his team mate for the lead and clipped the Ferrari. Remember in sportscars the rule is slower drivers have to hold their line.
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From my perspective the Ferrari was holding its line. Wasn't there a bank or curve where the Ferrari's "line" would have included turning in for an apex? The P1s are just always in such an intense battle that they make super dangerous passes. You see it over and over in races. This wasn't the only Audi/Pug race where the diesels were passing no matter where they were on the track...

I'll rewatch it, maybe I'm wrong. But that definitely seemed like McNish's fault all the way. Even if it was accidental.

EDIT: yep, just rewatched it. McNish dove into the Ferrari's apex. I'm sure the driver of 58 didn't see him, how quickly it happened. Like I said, since they and Pug are always so close racing, they will ignore traffic at their own peril. Yes, they are talented drivers, but a stupid move, even if the Ferrari weren't there, to pass his teammate at that spot IMO.

Even the commentators are saying he was too aggressive.
 
Paulie Walnuts
But it is a from a live broadcast though, and even when they first time see the car they don't seem to be shocked one bit.
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One of the commentators were pretty shocked at first but the other one was busy about the Audi. Or maybe being too shocked and running out of ideas what to say :lol:

But really I don't really see the point why the commentator must scream like ''OMG, that's a huge, huge crash! Who is that? Looks like one of the Courage. OMG that is horrible accident somewhere on the track. OMG...''. The TV director did no favour either by switching back to the Audi during the crash - confusing the commentators as to who they should be talking about. One talk about the Audi, one talk about the crash. Meeh...

Let's put it aside shall we? It's just a commentary.

I'd like to have a say about McNish's crash. I think it was McNish's fault because the rules stated that the slower cars must be on the racing line doesn't matter what. The #58 Ferrari driver was doing the right thing holding on to the racing line. McNish thought he could pass the Ferrari before that corner but it was too late - either expecting the Ferrari to back off and let him go or expecting the Ferrari to go off the racing line and let him take the inside.

The #58 Ferrari driver meanwhile could've though that McNish was flashing as he was nearing him or he could still be some distant back and is safe for him to take the corner. All in all, I think the #58 Ferrari wasn't 100% at fault because he was doing the right thing of sticking to the racing line while the Audi must find a way to pass him safely. If McNish crash, which he did he will be responsible for it. Instead, the Ferrari was put at fault.

These P1 drivers needs to understand when it is safe/appropriate to make a move on these slower cars. I think Davidson did the same to one of the leading Corvette in 2009 but instead, the Corvette suffered the most. I know that they're in a battle of their own but they need to stop being too aggresive and endanger others and themselves.
 
The visibility being cut due to wide fronts was a topic of discussion after that race. I think wide fronts should be done away with.
 
I had heard the same thing about visibility. I don't think McNish really thought he was going to muscle his way into a Ferrari, however he and others in his class are guilty of aggressive passes. I can think of a handful of times during the season GT drivers were potentially in danger by P1 passes in tight spots.

Like I said, even without the Ferrari there, it seemed like a bad spot.
 
The fact that Mcnish made a move like that so early on made it more aggravating.

Sometimes the follow up shot is better than the first.
 
Tower Turn 13
I had heard the same thing about visibility. I don't think McNish really thought he was going to muscle his way into a Ferrari, however he and others in his class are guilty of aggressive passes. I can think of a handful of times during the season GT drivers were potentially in danger by P1 passes in tight spots.

Like I said, even without the Ferrari there, it seemed like a bad spot.
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I don't think Mcnish actually even saw the Ferrari until he flew past his teammate and once he did, nothing he could do to stop the outcome of that.

sumbrownkid
The visibility being cut due to wide fronts was a topic of discussion after that race. I think wide fronts should be done away with.
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Wasn't so much as issue with wide fronts as it was the cockpit sitting low.
 
sumbrownkid
The visibility being cut due to wide fronts was a topic of discussion after that race. I think wide fronts should be done away with.
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2014 regs seem to include that.

And for this year new are mandatory rear view camera (LCD display in the cockpit) in the GT cars and bigger and more adjustable mirrors with a night mode for every class except P1.

Visibility issues are obvious, but what actually initiated the risky driving is the cut down of power compared to 2010 i.e. more important to keep momentum in traffic which then again was partly result of the evermore closer battle.
 
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I was wondering about those LCDs, when I saw one in Millners car last year I thought it was cool. Especially seeing them in JGTC cars for a while now, glad to see them become mandatory.
 
I respect McNish as a driver, and I hope I didn't come off too hating on prototype guys. Most of them get on without incident. I think it's all that's on the line with Audi/Pug in particular that makes them so risk-prone. I'm sure the teams are pushing them, and with the adrenaline of constantly being anyone's race it has to be wearing on the mind and decision making. Add a massively quick approach speed on GT2/3 and an accident is bound to happen eventually.

Take this for instance: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KnQdf1mJneM

It just seems like the overall prerogative is to maintain pace no matter what.
 
I wouldn't call McNish a bad driver. He makes some close calls in traffic, but for the most part, he knows what he's doing. Look at Daytona a few weeks ago. He could put multiple GT cars between himself and AJ, and that was enough to keep him honest on the oval bits. I'm sure he felt horrible for wrecking the Audi that early.
 
sumbrownkid
The visibility being cut due to wide fronts was a topic of discussion after that race. I think wide fronts should be done away with.
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So why didn't the Peugeots have any moments like the Audis all year when they too ran wide fronts? Same for Rebellion with their Lola Toyotas.....
 
This thread covers ALMS too, right?

http://www.autoweek.com/article/20120220/ALMS/120229993

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Those pugs and the rebellion Lola had their fair share of close encounters though. If drivers have mentioned it as a hindrance somewhat, it makes it a topic in the new regs.
 

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