The next part of Forza Motorsport will be developed openly with the community

Discussion in 'Forza Motorsport 7' started by TheOE, Mar 8, 2019.

  1. TheOE

    TheOE

    Messages:
    93
    In todays "Forza Monthly" Stream Dan Greenawalt talked about Forzas creative process and the future of the franchise. FM7 will be developed further, but increasingly big parts of the team will shift focus on the next part of the series.
    One key element of his interview was that the next iteration of Forza will be developed with the help of the community "rather than in a secret cave". That means the community will have an insight into the developing phases of the new game from drawing board till release (Possibly comparable to Assetto Corsa).
    Users will be able to share their feedback on the new official Forza Discord (Join at aka.ms/forzadiscord), which will heavily influence what might be Forza Motorsport 8.
     
    Novalee, bremics, KRATOS8MS and 3 others like this.
  2. ManteoMax

    ManteoMax

    Messages:
    37
    The timestamp link begins with Chris Esaki and Brian Ekberg talking about community interaction. Dan's comments on the next project begin at 1:43:00


    "What we're saying very specifically is that Forza Motorsport 7 has had a strong amount of support from the team, and we're going to be shifting our weight. So there's still updates to come: you heard about Forza Race Regulations, and we're going to be coming out with a private and then public beta and then rolling that out; you know, we're not done with esports, that's an exciting part to us as well so we're going to be doing updates on that in the future. And of course we're going to be doing other updates to the game. But the weight of the team is shifting over to our next project. So we're getting into that concept phase.

    Now in the past, that concept phase would be kind of subterranean. We'd kind of do it with ourselves, we'd work with our dev partners, and we'd bounce our concepts off ourselves. But we're going to be doing it differently this time. We want to do it in public. We want to do it with our fans. Does that mean early rollouts? I don't know. And that's really what it comes down to: I don't know.

    But the big news is the team is transitioning its weight. We're moving our weight over to this new project we're working on and we're doing it in a new way. We can listen to the team, open conduit, we want our players to go to Discord, get involved with us, to really be part of this process with us, to make their voice heard. And we, together, will shape the future of automotive entertainment."
     
    Apple Slipper likes this.
  3. RaceFuchs

    RaceFuchs

    Messages:
    702
    Location:
    Germany
    Well, that sounds interesting, but the way he talks, i still wonder... what has Turn 10 been doing all these months with no new track and no expansion? And now they are beginning with the concept for the next game? Game development takes time and somehow i get the impression their next title might not be ready for the next Xbox launch.
     
    AlienDeathRay, Dsavage27 and bremics like this.
  4. BoneSawTX

    BoneSawTX

    Messages:
    1,906
    Location:
    United States
    I miss something, I haven’t seen anything about a new generation launch.
     
  5. ManteoMax

    ManteoMax

    Messages:
    37
    "The same team that delivered unprecedented performance with Xbox One X is deep into architecting the next Xbox consoles." - Phil Spencer at E3 2018


    "As we look forward to future platforms that we are building..." - Phil Spencer at E3 2019


    While not necessarily confirmation of "next generation," a future title in 2019 or 2020 would be six or seven years after Xbox One launched, which was 8 years after Xbox 360 launched.
     
    Last edited: Mar 9, 2019
  6. FoxMulder

    FoxMulder

    Messages:
    74
    They can bang out a Forza Motorsports every other year in the cycle with Horizon since 2012. They're skipping this year and I can see FM8 being a launch title in 20 when the new console are probably coming.

    I didn't like FM7 after a decade with the franchise and why I'm on a GT site now, but they're open about flaws. They've been working to fix things instead of selling any expansion I guess.
     
  7. Dopplegagger

    Dopplegagger

    Messages:
    1,272
    Location:
    United States
    This all sounds good, however; when you go over to the Discord channel, the Denizens there are directing you to either the forums at Forzamotorsport.net or the Forza Support site. Apparently the Discord team didn't get the memo.

    For me, Turn 10 admitting the game needs work and fixing as much of it as they can is, the biggest redeeming factor of the title. In the past Turn 10 (Dan Greenawalt) claimed that they listen to the community, but they didnt appear to be doing that. FM7 comes around and some of the things the community wanted finally got addressed. I admit, this is because Turn 10 has broken their 2 year cadence. But it appears that the 2 year thing has started again. Back to blowing smoke and getting what the community wants through looking at how the game is played.
     
    Last edited: Mar 9, 2019
  8. RaceFuchs

    RaceFuchs

    Messages:
    702
    Location:
    Germany
    It could be very interesting releasing this as Early Access, F2P, Games-as-Service Title thats getting updated for many years to come, with a clear focus on Motorsport and more realism, but is this really Forza? Is this going to happen? They could have done a realistic tyre model, qualifying and race weekends years ago. They didnt. Instead they gave us cartoonish dtiver suits. And what will the community have to say aboute the next title? “Give us Supra. Give us even more drifting. Give us Hypercar XYZ.“

    Sorry, im just not very optimistic right now.
     
    VXR, AlienDeathRay, CTstryk and 6 others like this.
  9. Dopplegagger

    Dopplegagger

    Messages:
    1,272
    Location:
    United States
    I completely understand RaceFuchs. I'm doing the glass half full thing, but I'm expecting the worse. I've come to the realization that Forza will never be the racing title I want it to be. A sim where one could build up a car and race it with realistic rules and events. Nope. It's about turning gamers into car lovers. Although it tells us next to nothing about the cars we are supposed to be loving.

    Forza going Game as a Service could allow them to really flesh out the different aspects of the title. For example, they can have a team concentrate on improving racing, and and a team can continue to add tracks, cars etc...

    It sounds like the way to go with the franchise, in my opinion.
     
    phillkillv2, bremics and RaceFuchs like this.
  10. beyond72

    beyond72

    Messages:
    43
    I'm guessing it will just be more of the same (for both series) going forward, to be fair it must be difficult trying to appease all types of fans.
    They've just about got away with it so far but they need to think hard about being a jack of all trades and a master of none going forward with the FM series.
     
    CTstryk and Dopplegagger like this.
  11. Dopplegagger

    Dopplegagger

    Messages:
    1,272
    Location:
    United States
    Absolutely! If they were to pick one discipline and get it right, and keep everything else the same, Forza would stand out from everything on the market. But they do need to master at least one thing.
     
  12. McLaren

    McLaren Premium

    Messages:
    37,814
    Location:
    United States
    All I’m seeing is a bigger desire to have more community feedback worded to appear as if we’ll have a say in actual development. I’m betting the foundation of FM8 is already laid out, esp if more of the FM7 team is getting ready to transition to the new title.

    Wouldn’t really get my hopes up of them listening to the community more if they haven’t done so already over the years. I fully expect certain things like the paint bugs to reappear once more.
     
  13. KRATOS8MS

    KRATOS8MS

    Messages:
    60
    I only have four wishes for the new project:
    - tyre lettering
    - window lettering
    - qualifying
    - tracks tracks tracks...

    It would be a dream if Forza became a story of a race driver like the journey in Fifa.
     
    Last edited: Mar 9, 2019
    VXR likes this.
  14. HyperSpeeder

    HyperSpeeder

    Messages:
    98
    Reminder that Dan said it was the "next project". It will obviously be a Forza Motorsport, but it has NOT been confirmed it'll be an FM8.

    Taking Microsoft's roadmap for the Xbox into account, the numbered Forza releases are anachronistic. Way too much money wasted in releasing new games every two years with decreasing levels of quality caused by the team simply not having time to test before release.

    In fact, I'd say the people still waiting for a GT7 will probably be disappointed in the future. Gran Turismo Sport is here to stay.

    The only people who seem bent on continuing the timely release model are Codemasters with their F1 series, but I'd bet even they could be in talks with FOM and the FIA in an attempt to turn the official F1 game into a GaaS.

    Either way, I'd be very surprised to see this next Forza releasing next year. Dan mentioned they're just moving out of concept phase and starting the hard work right now, and T10 has been reported as being on the lookout for new coders. 2021 is a more realistic deadline, with FM7 as a testbed for the major features in the next game, so that it arrives perfect instead of having a rocky launch like FM7 did.

    A deadline of 2021 would also coincide with the expiration of licenses on FM7's part, and would give them more time to work out issues with certain manufacturers such as Toyota. Next year will be FH3's time to leave the shop, forcing Microsoft to bring a new FM in 2021 at the most.
     
    Last edited: Mar 9, 2019
  15. BeardedWolf

    BeardedWolf

    Messages:
    34
    I just want it to work consistently on PC without the game forgetting what graphics are every other time I try to play it. And "Recommended settings" doesn't mean what YOU WANT, Microsoft, it's the optimal settings for the computer. So, don't switch to 4K when we hit that button.
     
    Dopplegagger and Nikkolaz like this.
  16. GTPNewsWire

    GTPNewsWire Contributing Writer

    Messages:
    7,940
    Location:
    United States
  17. OneSlowZZ

    OneSlowZZ

    Messages:
    5
    I believe the game does have the possibility to be a jack of all trades and do what no other game has been able to....there is a long ways to go for that - but - I like the variety the game has the potential to provide. Lots to do still. Hoping it continues to get better.

    If they don't release tracks but continue to make the experience better (the list is still pretty long) - I'll be good with that and probably look at the new title as something to think about.

    I have enjoyed playing the game since I got it in September and the updates for the most part, especially the FFB and much of the physics updates have really made the game better and better.

    So cheers to hoping for more great updates and bug fixes - (i'm looking at you crappy AI and stupid headlight glitches)
     
  18. SlipZtrEm

    SlipZtrEm Administrator

    Messages:
    26,709
    Location:
    Canada
    I should point out that the only reason for the FM8 tag on the new article is because it's important for us to distinguish this as separate from existing titles. We've done the same with PCARS3 and GT7 (which became GTS, and could technically still be a thing again).

    Not that your post was about the article, since it wasn't even published yet. Just thought I'd share that! :)
     
  19. Corsa

    Corsa Premium

    Messages:
    1,573
    I just stopped by Forza discord yesterday, there's nobody around.
    If that's where they'd like us to start a feedback conversation no problem, I have a few suggestions.
     
  20. SimTourist

    SimTourist

    Messages:
    1,213
    The old engine needs to be thrown in the trash where it belongs. There are bugs that exist as far back as FM2, either nobody knows how to fix them or any fix breaks the entire system. They need a fresh start, take as much time as needed to bring out something fresh. Considering how it took the entire team to bring these "updates" for FM7 that are barebones side features, how it took a full year for something simple like taking out loot boxes, it actually seems the team is terribly inefficient and slow, changing the UI is not something that takes a year to do, it's couple weeks work at best. Compare what they've done to FM7 in a year compared to monthly patch notes for Assetto Corsa or other sims for example, the team is just sitting there sipping tea instead of working. It's either that or the engine is so terribly dated that it doesn't allow fast iteration and prototyping. T10 has cruised on the back of productivity of their Vietnamese outsourcers for years, but when asked to do something themselves to improve the game they were caught with their pants down.
     
    HarlemG27, CTstryk and dirtydog like this.
  21. RaceFuchs

    RaceFuchs

    Messages:
    702
    Location:
    Germany
    Pretty much my thoughts for quite a while now. I simply cant understand what the whole team has been doing since the release of FM7. What about those guys who build tracks? Have they spend 1 year+ implementing a track limits feature? I cant get my head around this. One of the biggest issues with the latest news i have is that i get the impression Turn 10 has run out of ideas a while ago.

    No expansion for FM7, no expansion at all. Why? They could have done so many things. IMSA expansion. New Formula E season. Indycar expansion. DTM expansion. Offroad / Rallycross expansion. The later was a no-brainer for me. They could have used track surface data and assets from FH3/4. But they didnt. Now you could argue they are saving all that stuff for FM8, but guess what? They dont event know where to go next and ask the community for feedback. This just gives me the impression that Turn 10 has some kind of creative crisis or budget cut right now.
     
    bremics, dirtydog, TheHun99 and 3 others like this.
  22. SimTourist

    SimTourist

    Messages:
    1,213
    The track team is probably updating all the tracks for next-gen Xbox, remaking textures and assets and such. There isn't really any pressure on them, the only game that has more tracks is Project Cars.
    The game sold poorly and previous expansion for FM6 also sold poorly. The ROI is not there to justify it.
    Probably a bit of both, Horizon is doing better critically and commercially, the team has been reluctant to make any significant changes to the formula for more than a decade, and their handling of Forza 7 before and after release has exposed them as very slow and inefficient , plus the sales have been declining from game to game. The studio hasn't been able to keep up with the market and player feedback, the player base is moving away, and the general public's interest in cars is not very high either, especially younger demographics are finding it hard to get excited about cars amidst stagnating wages and increasing costs of owning one.
     
    HarlemG27 likes this.
  23. RaceFuchs

    RaceFuchs

    Messages:
    702
    Location:
    Germany
    This makes sense. However, someone at Turn 10 claimed last year that the whole team was working on FM7 and improving the game instead of moving on to the next one. Including the track guys.

    But GT Sport is very successfull. Not in the huge way previous games were, but still very successfull. So there is some player potential.
     
  24. HyperSpeeder

    HyperSpeeder

    Messages:
    98
    It's easy to pick on something you may know barely anything about, isn't it? :)

    It surely didn't take the team a full year just to update the UI. And I believe the reason why some other things took so long is that, at some point in the game's lifecycle, T10 was still interested in (or told to, we don't know) bringing forth the original view of the game, that is, an ever more "horizonified" Forza Motorsport. Besides, the things that took the longest to add seem to be the ones that work the best in the game, so I'm all for them taking their time.

    Another thing to consider is that T10 is not Kunos Simulazioni, nor even SMS. They're frontmen to Microsoft itself. What they do has an impact on the success of the Xbox as a whole, not just their game. Their range of what they can or can't say is thus far more limited. We all know (or, at least, should know) the reason why there's RAM trucks in the Car Pass is because of contractual obligations with FCA, but, unlike Stefano Casillo, who was upfront about Porsche's marketing intentions, T10 can't just openly say "we added the RAM Power Wagon because FCA wouldn't let us add the Giulia Quadrifoglio without adding a RAM truck" or something like that.

    Furthermore, T10 is limited by Microsoft's support policy regarding the Xbox. They're forced to issue monthly patches and are allowed to break this routine only when the game has a critical bug, like last month when the Race Shop and the tuning preview didn't work properly. Assetto Corsa on the PC has far more flexibility. Even Gran Turismo Sport on the PS4 has more freedom when it comes to patching stuff, which is Sony's way of doing things. I would like Microsoft to follow suit.

    Now, when it comes to the ForzaTech engine itself, it's my understanding that it does need heavy updating, even at the cost of backwards compatibility. Since the physics engine is updated in each title, I find it pointless to keep backwards compatibility with tunes. This feature is one of the biggest limiters when it comes to improving the actual physics engine, as it prevents T10 from adding four-way adjustable dampers, LSD preload, viscous coupling and a sensible assists system to it. The graphics engine needs tweaking as well, but, since we will be moving on to a next Xbox within a couple years, this is a given, and it should hopefully let the team add full day cycle as well as weather to all tracks.

    IMO, the biggest flaw of the current engine is that each section of the code seems so much intertwined with each other that fixing something has a very high risk of breaking something else, an issue not exclusive to Motorsport BTW. I believe T10 knows about this problem, which is why they've been on the lookout for coders with experience in C++, as leaked in an official Microsoft product page.

    Personally speaking, a new engine will not always make things any better. You move to a new engine when you want to do stuff your current engine cannot, or won't do properly. It's unofficially known that the Madness engine used by SMS still had some leftover code from the NFS Shift days; the data files are eerily similar once decrypted, and Project CARS on the PC doesn't even accept graphical tweaks without a restart, much like Shift 2 back in the day. Likewise, Kunos was forced to move on to a highly updated version of their engine for Assetto Corsa Competizione because AC, praise notwithstanding, remains stuck in a reality from the 2000s, when it was not necessary for a game to offer a realistic simulation of track conditions to be regarded as a good sim. Which is why rFactor was the sim of choice for so long, despite being as barebones and unpolished as it gets.

    The truth is, I get angry with the state of Forza Motorsport (and Horizon) very often, and I'm not even a fan from "back then", just someone who really enjoys the driving in the franchise, whether it's Horizon or Motorsport. But, is the grass on the neighboring gardens that much greener? Look at the general Gran Turismo Sport thread in this very forum for example. No marketing effort on Sony's part will change the fact the game scared away people who don't want to get involved in e-sports, and the people who remained loyal to the game aren't fully satisfied with it either, not to mention the "free" content it gets in a monthly basis is stuff other games have had for years, even decades. If it wasn't enough, Project CARS, the second installment of which sold less than the first and is forcing Ian Bell to broaden the franchise's appeal in the third game, often ships with bugs far more serious than anything Forza Motorsport has ever had, from turbos not working in a car to camber exploits, improper simulation of automated clutches, cars stuck in neutral when hitting bumps, and much more. And Assetto Corsa itself is ruled with an iron fist by Casillo, who is let loose simply because his fanbase is anything but critical.

    At the end of the day, most of the changes I would like to see in Forza Motorsport are to move the game into a more simulation approach, so that it presents itself as a viable alternative to PC sims and retains its superiority over Gran Turismo in terms of content, features and fun. From what I could gather in the stream, both Dan and Chris know about it, which is already a great start. Technical evolution will be a natural consequence of that, if anything because the new console and service model from Microsoft will force them to do so. The tentative FM8 is T10's move to mold Forza Motorsport to an environment where Game Pass and similar services will be the primary way of getting games, on any platform, and FM7's increasing role as a test bed will allow them to push themselves further than ever, I hope.
     
  25. ShakesMcQueen

    ShakesMcQueen

    Messages:
    436
    Players assuming devs who don't prioritize the things they want on a timetable they deem acceptable, are simply lazy, is one of the least charming aspects of the "gaming community".
     
  26. McLaren

    McLaren Premium

    Messages:
    37,814
    Location:
    United States
    I keep hearing Forza sales decline with each title, yet every time it’s posted, each claimer never posts any data to show such....
     
    BoneSawTX and phillkillv2 like this.
  27. SimTourist

    SimTourist

    Messages:
    1,213
    You can check the leaderboards in the games. Also Forza 7 was out of top 10 charts very quickly.
     
  28. RaceFuchs

    RaceFuchs

    Messages:
    702
    Location:
    Germany
    ACC uses the Unreal Engine 4, not an updated AC engine.

    Yeah, thats pretty much what all of us want - at least here on GTP. However, i'm affraid part of the problem is that WE have changed and not that Forza remains stuck in the past. I can only speak for myself of course, but back in the day when Forza 5 came out, i loved the game and considered it being an authentic simulation. Of course, it never was. But back then, i didnt knew the PC sims. Project Cars wasnt a thing yet. Gran Turismo was still stuck on PS3. I spend hundred of hours both with Forza 5 and Forza 6 but not nearly as much time with Forza 7. Why? Is it really a worse game? No, it actually is a pretty fine game and a strong Simcade. But i have moved on. I prefer playing titles with a sim focus, with loads of options to customize my experience and get as near to reality as possible. Back in the day of Forza 5 and 6, the lack of realistic tyre simulation, qualifying and race weekends didnt bother me. I was still using a game pad. Then i moved on to a FFB wheel and more dedicated sims. It was harder for me to go back to Forza after that. Although i played Forza 7 with a wheel and the game offered much more features then the previous entrys - just think about the free play / custom race feature. I would have killed for these options in 2013/2015, but today, if you have spend much time with Assetto Corsa and its content manager / custom championships, you won't be that impressed with what Forza 7 offers.

    I'm just saying all this because i'm not sure if Turn 10 really wants to create a "true" sim. A typical approachable console racer - in other words, a simcade - is pretty much what they have always done and it will probably sell more copies.
     
  29. SimTourist

    SimTourist

    Messages:
    1,213
    I don't think adding an option for qualifying, pit strategy and more player agency would affect the sales. First, it's only an option, you can still stick with 1 2 3 GO! formula if you so wish. Second, GT has those things and sells well.
     
    bremics and Dopplegagger like this.
  30. HyperSpeeder

    HyperSpeeder

    Messages:
    98
    Yeah that's true, thanks for pointing it out.

    But that's the thing - Forza Motorsport does not need to be a casual game anymore, and does not need to sell in high volumes anymore.

    Microsoft is no longer counting sales, but players, since their games are all on the Game Pass. And both Forza Horizon 4 and Sea of Thieves, the latter of which sold above expectations despite mild hype and average reviews, prove that this shift is not intended to mask lackluster performance in the market, but to accomodate for the fact not everyone who plays these games owns them. In the future, sales will be completely irrelevant, because we're moving fully towards streaming and service subscription. Make no mistake, Sony is doing this as well (GTS itself is the best game to showcase this model on their platform) and we'll see things like this on the PC as well, considering we already have things like GeForce Now and even Steam's local streaming.

    Moreover, when it comes to how focused the game is, with Forza Horizon syphoning the casual fanbase away from Motorsport, what's the point of keeping FM in full simcade territory? They'll only lose further sales by keeping the game as it is. More and more I see people saying "I like Horizon better, Motorsport is too much for me" and, guess what? Even if FM had the exact same physics as FH, people would still favor FH over FM, the excuse now being "it's open world, I have more freedom, I don't care about race tracks and race cars". As a sandbox game, FH is MUCH more versatile than FM and T10 learned this the hard way when even SUVs like the Jeep Trackhawk and Porsche Cayenne, which are very capable on tarmac roads, were poorly received by the community. T10 can't just put dirt tracks in FM since much of motorsport on dirt is rallying, which is not racing. FH's take on dirt racing is largely unrealistic.

    Codemasters' GRID franchise has never made it past last gen and their F1 series has become much more realistic over the past few years. Simcade is dying. You yourself stated you moved on because FM is not suitable as a sim anymore. I made the opposite move, from hardcore sim to simcade, but I wouldn't mind seeing FM going hardcore. Even if sales are important in the future, FH can lift the heavier weight acting as the Cayenne to FM's 911. Turning Forza into a racing version of COD was not a good idea on Microsoft's part and that's why we're seeing moves like these on their part.
     
    Dopplegagger and RaceFuchs like this.