The next tuner challenge..

  • Thread starter Leonidae
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And again, it boils down to the fact that there just aren't that many people who enjoy driving or creating N-tire tunes.

Kent, the idea itself is totally sound, and if there are enough people who step up and express interest, there's every reason to go ahead and hold a N-tire class in the competition, if not an entire competition using N-tires. The problem is that I just don't see that happening. If it does, that's great, let's go for it 👍

But, it seems like most of the people likely to participate are here following this planning thread, and so far only two people have said anything about any desire to tune specifically for N-tires, while quite a few have said specifically that they don't like them and don't or won't tune for them. If there are people out there lurking following the thread who disagree, please by all means say so - if this is something that there's demand for, it should happen. What I'm worried about is that if we throw a competition like that, there'd be a repeat of TC1, and there'd be nearly no entries.

There's one extremely interesting element of your suggestion though - designated judges. If we can all agree on a panel of extremely competent judges willing to commit to the challenge, whose decisions we could all trust and respect, it would eliminate a lot of the uncertainty regarding the quality and quantity of judging.
 
I think that while being forced onto horrid tires would definitely help out every single tuner, there is the hatred that will well up because the car CANNOT be made perfect.
 
amen to that, RJ. I don't feel satisfied unless the car fills my definition of as perfect as possible..
 
Same here.

In fact, many a car in my garage has been given up on (as much as I hate to admit it) due to me not being able to get it JUST where I want it. If there is so much as one small annoyance with it, it will get trashed. (Not annoyance stock... I mean a problem that WILL NOT, CAN NOT, and SHALL NOT go away)

The only time I really will tune on N-grades is when I have a base vehicle that is VERY capable to start with. If it's at least halfway decent handling stock, I can make it great on Ns and usually have it translate into an awesome S-grade setup with only minor tweaking... But other times, I've made a car good on N grades just to have it go to pot on S grades. (I've seen oversteer turn to pigheaded push, understeer into axe-murderer-esque oversteer...)

So N-grades are not my cup of tea ever.
 
eg6_dude
Very true! Although I like tuning every drivetrain type of car, FFs are often underappreciated in GT4. They are a blast to drive when properly modded and tuned, and have the possibility of being very fast, but they require a high level of skill to drive fast and some patience.
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i feel the same way too, FF cars are not given much attention on GT4, because of their handling.., but yes, once a FF is given a proper setup, it brings out the best in you.., :)

All your ideas are very good but someone needs to take the leader position and come up with a common set of rules before it becomes an endless discussion and no tuning! Lol! :)

-EG6_DUDE
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how about me, being in that leader position?? :sly:?? haha, just kidding.., :D

Kent
Can I make a suggestion? :sly: :D :cheers:

So with all that in mind, I suggest...
NA vs Turbo: no hp limit, no weight limit, only N tires, all comparisons to be run on a single track, only designated judges.

Each category is judged independantly, then one from each class is selected (in an effort to create the closest possible race) and those two serve as the base of an open spot race here on the GTP forums.

That's the touge challenge, what do you all think?
(btw, I'd like to thank everyone for contributing ideas that allowed me to present this proposal). :cheers: :bowdown: :cheers:
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NA vs Turbo?? how about NA vs Turbo vs Supercharger?? i have a good suggestion on what cars to choose :sly:.., the 3 AE86's of Toyota!! (Sprinter, Corolla, and Sprinter SS Ver.) :D those 3 cars can give a great touge battle, how about we race them on Citta 'di Aria, so that it would really feel like a touge challenge?? 👍:)

nd 4 holden spd
The best judges would be the best tuners, and they'd want to enter.
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of course, Greycap and Leonidae already qualify for those positions.., :)
 
yeah, but the thing is that he hass a full day job and I am at school, studying to become a car mechanic this spring, so we're short of time.. which rules us out as judges. besides, there's one more factor in my case: I'm notoriously lazy, have bad memory and my prejudices towards certain cars would get in the way of judging. :dopey: :embarrassed:
 
Leonidae
yeah, but the thing is that he hass a full day job and I am at school, studying to become a car mechanic this spring, so we're short of time.. which rules us out as judges. besides, there's one more factor in my case: I'm notoriously lazy, have bad memory and my prejudices towards certain cars would get in the way of judging. :dopey: :embarrassed:
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car mechanic, eh?? so you are really into tuning and understanding cars better.., well, good luck.., 👍

you're saying that some cars go in your favor, and some don't, which would interfere in your judging??

so that rules you two out as judges.., hmm, anybody willing to step up?? :)
 
Depending on how the divisions work out, I'd be plenty willing to judge a couple of them. I'm pretty unbiased in all respects towards all cars and I think I'm a fairly good hand at tuning :) This of course assumes that we do decide to go with panel judging rather than open judging, and what the actual nature of the challenge is.
 
I'm willing to be a judge......

..........If you're all willing to race on dirt. ;) Come on boys & girls, let's get some WRC tuner action going here, see who can really handle their cars. :D

Mafs!!
 
Leonidae
yeah, but the thing is that he hass a full day job and I am at school, studying to become a car mechanic this spring, so we're short of time.. which rules us out as judges. besides, there's one more factor in my case: I'm notoriously lazy, have bad memory and my prejudices towards certain cars would get in the way of judging. :dopey: :embarrassed:
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Haha :lol: Too Funny Leo! I would volunteer to judge but I don't have that much time anymore, and I don't think I have the rep here anymore to do so! :lol: Hope you guys find someone. Would love to see this progress! :)

Peace,
EG6_DUDE
 
mafia_boy
I'm willing to be a judge......

..........If you're all willing to race on dirt. ;) Come on boys & girls, let's get some WRC tuner action going here, see who can really handle their cars. :D

Mafs!!
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It doesn't matter how well the tuner can handle the car if the judges can't. I've made a rallycross RUF BTR that eats WRC cars for breakfast with 450 bhp and no wing - when I'm driving, that is. The others who have tried it could barely get within ten seconds of me and said it was terribly difficult to drive. And the same guys are about two seconds behind me on the race tracks.
 
I tested your Europa comparing it to the Celica, as I was telling CLS in PM. Your times are very impressive but it also gave me a good comparison for our 4WD's. As for dirt driving, geez, the RUF is a bit of overkill against those puppies, that's like bringing a bazooka to a gunfight. :lol: I've just got a cheapo 60000km '97 Camaro Z28 that chopped the WRC cars on Hard on Tahiti Maze for 200pts. each....cost me $20k all up including car purchase price ($8848 purchase).

Tell you what, link your RUF stat sheet to me via PM Grey and I'll have a go at it.
 
eg6_dude
Haha :lol: Too Funny Leo! I would volunteer to judge but I don't have that much time anymore, and I don't think I have the rep here anymore to do so! :lol: Hope you guys find someone. Would love to see this progress! :)

Peace,
EG6_DUDE
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If you could work around the time issue, the fact that you haven't been around much recently might actually be a POSITIVE - no prejudices to certain tuners, no affiliation with any of the current tuner garages, etc etc. It puts you in a somewhat unique position of unbiased disinterest.
 
I'll see what I can do..

I know for sure that in a few weeks I will have a lot more time, but up till that I am not sure. Otherwise I would love to!

Anybody else up for the judging?? Kent perhaps? Anyone? I think it would be best to have a more then one experienced judge. :)

Peace,
EG6_DUDE
 
Well whatever guise this challenge finally wears, it won't be kicking off until, I would imagine, late February or early March when the VTC wraps up, so you have plenty of time to decide what you want to do. And I definitely hope Kent can judge too - his judging in TCv2 was unquestionably high quality.
 
I like Kent's idea, but add a third category for Supercharger, like someone else said. I'm also down with N tires, seeing as I'll probably drift my way to a better time:scared:

Rally Challenge like Mafs said, I think it's a great idea. But, laptimes should be quite important there, seeing as one car won't handle all that much better over the other.
 
It looks like there IS a fair bit of support for an N tire element to the challenge. With that in mind, to address every desire, here's a proposal that combines all the major ideas thus far.

Five Divisions, the first 4 of which are budget capped at 100,000cr. including the car, allow a free rigidity refresher, and have a WPR cap of 3.0:
FWD
1800cc and under
1801cc-2500cc
2501cc and up

The final division would be a Pro-Street Touge class - any road car of any budget or WPR is allowed, providing its running on N-class tires. A theme such as the one Kent suggested (NA vs. FI) could be worked out, and a spot race created from among the best entries.

Each division would have a specific assigned track to tune for, and a specific panel of judges would be determined in advance to pass verdict on each division.

With this many divisions, it would probably have to be a two-phase event like the VTC though.

Thoughts?
 
Maybe a better idea for the Touge Battle: The best of the best from the other divisions get pulled out and compared against each other, and the other vehicles would have their own 'street legal' run class.

Keys to meeting 'street legal' requirements:
No weight reduc above stage 1
Semi-racing exhaust at best
(Possibly) no FC transmission

What think? Even as your setup stands, I'd be in. One last question... Would FWDs be able to mix in with the other classes?
 
You'll have to clarify what you mean a bit, I think I may be confused - if the other classes are running on S-tires and you pull the best for a street-legal challenge and slap N-tires on them, it could/would ruin the tunes.

The reason I suggested the two seperate spheres was to allow for both budget tuning on S-tires and a touge competition focusing on N-tires, as the supporters of each idea tend to be opposed to the other idea. We could use what (I think?) your idea is suggestiong though and have TWO "finals", one for each sphere. One that involves the best tunes from the Pro-Street Touge division in a spot-race, and one that involves the winning car pulled from each of the budget subcategories being judged for overall feel and deemed the overall winner of that sphere.
 
Wow . . . Miss a day of reading this thread and it explodes.

Ok . . . One last thing from me on the budget. In the posts that I read a couple pages back. I like the idea of receiving the second suspension package as a bonus, and either upgrading to the full racing suspension (or even maybe downgrading for a little extra cash?)

The only thing that I'm not crazy about is the amounts that were mentioned. I'm of the belief that less is more. And if given 100,000 credits to start with, you could build one heck of a car. (Thats taking into account that the suspension and refresh wouldn't be counted in the total bill) I really would like to see something starting at the 10,000 range so it would be similar to starting off a fresh game of GT-4 with a couple extra perks. A tighter budget will make racers consider exactily what car they could buy along with what they are adding to the car instead of just slapping everything on the car and tinkering with the suspension and trans settings. Not only that but most of the cars in that price range are pretty evenly matched even Even bumping it up to 50,000 would be fine. 100,000 just opens it up to way to many cars that can compete at very different levels.

And as far as the varying prices of used cars. I say just go with the cheaper price. No matter what the cost, they all have the same stats at that point. (6.2m/10k excluded.) "Special mileage" cars should be priced as such unless they match, or are greater than the lowest mileage car available in the used car lot.

Just sharing my thoughts.
 
CraftyLandShark
You'll have to clarify what you mean a bit, I think I may be confused - if the other classes are running on S-tires and you pull the best for a street-legal challenge and slap N-tires on them, it could/would ruin the tunes.

The reason I suggested the two seperate spheres was to allow for both budget tuning on S-tires and a touge competition focusing on N-tires, as the supporters of each idea tend to be opposed to the other idea. We could use what (I think?) your idea is suggestiong though and have TWO "finals", one for each sphere. One that involves the best tunes from the Pro-Street Touge division in a spot-race, and one that involves the winning car pulled from each of the budget subcategories being judged for overall feel and deemed the overall winner of that sphere.
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Well, I was suggesting that there be two finals... :P

Just didn't write it out very well.

And, ehh, would FWD be legal for the displacement classes if someone so wished to use one?
 
I'm a little iffy on the 100,000cr. cap myself. I used that in the proposal as it seems to be a widely accepted figure, but doing a little fiddling today I bought a used '89 Miata so cheaply that I slapped pretty much everything on it. All I didn't use were the rigidity enhancement, racing brakes, the FC LSD, Stage 2 and 3 lightening, and the port polish/engine balance, and I think I came out somewhere around 99,650. 50,000 with the suspension allowance does seem a little more reasonable.

And RJ, your question about FWD mixing in the displacement classes - I don't see why not.
 
Too many ideas, head hurting, just tell me when you decide and I'll go for it. If it's on N1 then I'll be a judge. I'm not biased either and not a bad tuner. Sounds like I might as well judge.
 
Here's a thought I've always tried to work out but never actually successfully accomplished...

FF vs RWD
Put the FF on S3 and the FR on N3, run that concept with nothing more than 2 hp classes. 280 and unlimited.
One track, 3 to 5 selected judges, .vs. match spot race for 2 winners.

That aside, I don't really see an N tire comp working well due to lack of participation.
My reasons for suggesting N tires...
1) The HP figures are generally lower. Pushing 400hp (what goes into ferraris and racecars) is much harder with N tires. This keeps our builds semi accurate to the Best Motoring cars I originally wanted to duplicate.

2) The handling characteristics are brought out by N tires due to the lack of grip compared to an S tire. Although the car can be more difficult to drive, the final experience for each car is much more likely to be unique. As grip is reduced the car's unique flaws and attributes will become more and more noticeable. This is most obvious with the most important elements of a tuner challenge, LSD, FC Race Suspension, and Brake Balance are all much more important when the sticky tires aren't going to save an overpowered RWD or an overweight FWD.

3) N3 tires are my favorite tires in the game (for the most part :sly: ).
N3 tires seem to match most stock road cars in GT4 perfectly. It's almost like the physics are better. :dunce:

This sort of concept only applies to some extent, it should not be applied in an overly generalized manner. Cars such as the Yellowbird wouldn't run well on N3 tires, I believe the yellowbird's best match is the S3 and S2 for extended tire wear scenerios.

In my opinion, each car has an ideal tire. Road cars without downforce generally running below 500hp seem to feel great on N3 tires. FF can't go above 250 on N3s and old cars can't go over 400 without a bit of trouble.
The N3 gives enough grip to drive properly but also so little grip that various forms of understeer and oversteer are obvious to the driver.

N3 tires are the way to go in my opinion (when recreating the touge battles).
 

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