The next tuner challenge..

[nd 4 holden spd]

CLS has done a lot of work there to figure this out, wow.👍

 

[CraftyLandShark]

Now to something completely different - as I mentioned yesterday, Greycap and I have been working on something for the next challenge that we think will significantly help in the process of vetting potential judges for panels for the respective divisions.

The general idea behind having a predetermined panel of judges is to ensure that the judges are driving the cars to their limits. Obviously, cars behave differently, when driven with just enough gusto to get them around the track, as opposed to how they behave when REALLY pushed. As such, stemming from a suggestion Kent made in the MFT thread, Greycap and I decided to put together what we think to be a pretty reasonable "hotlap" test for those wanting to be considered as potential judges.

We considered several different track-and-car combinations, and finally settled on one.
For the track, we chose Infineon Sports for several reasons. First off, it's an extremely challenging track comprised of tricky linked off-camber bends, neckbreaking sweepers, and three hairpins, all of varying sizes and apex types. It's also a track that doesn't often get used, and as such provides a relatively level playing field, as opposed to, say, GVS, where some drivers "specialize", excelling beyond realistically matchable boundaires. Also important is the fact that it's relatively short. A track as long as GVS could potentially discourage those who want to judge, as it takes a fair bit longer to complete a similar number of laps relative to Infineon.

For the car, after evaluating the likes of RUFs and Skylines, we settled on the Protomotors Spirra. It ranks among the most hair-raising cars in the game in terms of handling characteristics, without being as unmanageable as something like a RUF. It also matches Infineon well in the context of a test of car control, as its natural attitude is strong oversteer.

Both Greycap and I set benchmark laps in the Spirra in "WRS tune" - Arcade Mode, Time Trial, tuned to +20% power and -10% weight, on SS tires. We didn't spend a great amount of time on these laps as we didn't want to set unmatchable times. Both Greycap's lap and my lap came in at 1'36'8xx. Greycap is a murderously quick driver by any standard, and Infineon is one of my strongest tracks. We figure that a benchmark time of 1'38'00 would be a fair test of skill. I'll post a video of my lap shortly. From there, we can determine whether this seems a fair test for potential judges. It seems like there has to be SOME test, otherwise those not selected might feel needlessly and unreasonably slighted.

 

[Kent]

Hey all...
I just watched some footage from the "Touge 300."
Definately more recent with a good looking mix of cars from older stuff as well as new stuff. It was interesting to see them actually name the event Touge 300 so a Z33 could roll with the gang. Really enjoyed seeing cars from GT4 on the Touge and it made me think of the next tuner challenge. 👍

I've seen some good discussion come up but I think things are being over thought.
Why worry about calculations when the game consistantly gives the R34 0/3 downforce. Stock it is there, with a gt wing at default it's there, just use that as a base for discussion.
That said, the amazing FF Prelude by Jun runs a big spoiler and some of the older silvias didn't because there were used often on the street.

What's that tell us about Best Motoring's Touge events?
Think abou that and get back to me.

 

[CraftyLandShark]

The reason I went to all that effort wasn't just for the sake of the R34 - yes, it has default downforce, but quite a few of the other cars likely to show up in the challenge don't. The question is whether wings should be allowed in the touge division, and if so, what sort of downforce cap, if any, should be allowed? This becomes even more of a question now that Greycap has clued me in on something interesting - certain cars in GT4 have internal assumed downforce that never shows up, aftermarket wing or not. One of the Amuse S2000's, for instance, runs 17F/40R, but nowhere short of getting into hardcore hybriding does the game tell you that.

 

[Kent]

The reason I went to all that effort wasn't just for the sake of the R34 - yes, it has default downforce, but quite a few of the other cars likely to show up in the challenge don't. The question is whether wings should be allowed in the touge division, and if so, what sort of downforce cap, if any, should be allowed? This becomes even more of a question now that Greycap has clued me in on something interesting - certain cars in GT4 have internal assumed downforce that never shows up, aftermarket wing or not. One of the Amuse S2000's, for instance, runs 17F/40R, but nowhere short of getting into hardcore hybriding does the game tell you that.

I just PM'd you and I understand what you are saying throughout. Likewise, there is a great deal we should discuss (hence the PM). Please feel free to be frank with me in your Private Messages, I will try to do the same.

 

[nd 4 holden spd]

Hey CraftyLandShark, did I read that right? The Spirra is more controllable than the RUF? The RUF was no where near as bad as that murderous Spirra. That car was so prone to oversteer and then snap back when pushed to the limit that lap I sent you had an off track excursion. I will set a new lap and beat that time of yours because I can . But you must be good at Infineon and Grey is just plain good. When do you want to start taking submissions for judge's lap times?

 

[CraftyLandShark]

Oh as of now, it's just a proposal! Nothing official yet, just an idea.

 

[Megasoft Office]

Hey all...
I just watched some footage from the "Touge 300."
Definately more recent with a good looking mix of cars from older stuff as well as new stuff. It was interesting to see them actually name the event Touge 300 so a Z33 could roll with the gang. Really enjoyed seeing cars from GT4 on the Touge and it made me think of the next tuner challenge. 👍

I've seen some good discussion come up but I think things are being over thought.
Why worry about calculations when the game consistantly gives the R34 0/3 downforce. Stock it is there, with a gt wing at default it's there, just use that as a base for discussion.
That said, the amazing FF Prelude by Jun runs a big spoiler and some of the older silvias didn't because there were used often on the street.

What's that tell us about Best Motoring's Touge events?
Think abou that and get back to me.

Which issue of Best Motoring? I have a number of their DVDs and am in the process of ordering their first (hard-to-find) Hot Version International.

CLS: The reasoning behind my estimates for downforce are based on handling feel at low and high speeds. I compare the way the car handles (with and without a GT wing) with a few Silvia S15 in Best Motoring International, Vol. 9 - Fuji Fast (also with and without a aero aids). For example, a Yashio Factory S15 would break loose for lack of downforce (zero front, zero rear). Afterwards, I add added downforce to emulate, almost perfectly, the Kei Office S15. The added downforce was to 3 front, 6 rear. The feeling test was done on Gymkhana (low-speed), Nuerburgring (for high-speed), and Autumn Ring and the car behavior radically changed with those aero adjustments.

Regardless, I was recently thinking that we could initiate a new tuner league for road cars if things don't get settled upon soon. The new league would be governed by road restrictions and would give the opportunity for street-tuned machines--including touge projects--a place to be compared with one another, much in the same manner as done in the Vintage Cup some of you are already part of. What are your thoughts.

Off the record, there is a Best Motoring group on Facebook with a multitude of videos.

 

[CraftyLandShark]

I found the Best Motoring statistics quoted by a Japanese member of a GTR Forum - I'll see if I can find it again. As I understand it, it was an issue dedicated specifically to testing the R34 - in the case of the R34 no official CoD was ever published by Nissan. They quoted a margin of error averaging around .01-.06 for their tests varying on which of the 4 AoA settings the OEM R34 wing was set to.

The individual in question did mention this particular BM being difficult to find outside of Japan - I'll see if I can get more details. 👍


<edit> check back tomorrow - I'm exhausted, it's midnight here, and I've got an 8 o'clock tomorrow, but I'm sure I can find the source material again. 👍

<edit to respond to your edit> If you want to host a street tune competition, go for it. Although it might be best to wait and see what happens with the touge element of this challenge, as it seems to be shaping up to be a good kickoff towards generating more interest in a more hardcore street-tune venue. Up to you though!

 

[nd 4 holden spd]

I went and set a 1'36.857 lap time just to equal things out, more room in that lap so yeah, I think a 1'38 lap seems reasonable even though to me it seems rather easy to obtain. All I did to equal your timewas be less crazy Smooth operation of the vehicle and it only took 2 laps to get that time you and Grey got. Maybe even a 1'37.500 lap would be good.

 

[CraftyLandShark]

One thing that I forgot to mention - if the test lap does become part of the official challenge setup, we'll need video evidence of the lap. It doesn't matter if it's a grainy mobile phone cam video of the saved ghost replay, as long as we can make out the text verifying the settings, and the final time at the end. 👍

 

[nd 4 holden spd]

Are pictures of the screens OK? Shortcutting at Infineon is kind of impossible anyway. I could give some pics of the screen with the time on it. You wouldn't need a pic of the settings as I'd have them on the fastest possible as specified by your criteria anyway.

 

[CraftyLandShark]

Didn't mean you specifically - I'll toy around and see what can be done for that - technically cheating is possible just using pictures, as there's no one single screen that contains all of the relevant data - a less honest person than yourself might use Racing tires to obtain a saved replay that quotes a faster time. Of course, let me say again, I don't mean you in specific, I don't think you'd cheat, by any means.

<edit> nevermind! Forgot you can't use race tires on a road car in arcade time trial. A photo of the saved ghost replay file in the replay theater menu should be fine.

 

[Skygrasper550]

d24/7, the debates are part of life here.

If we didn't argue amongst each other, it'd be a big, fat, communist "You will do it this way, nothing else" party. Every tune would be identical, etc.

i know that, i'm just saying that we should soon come to a conclusion before the VTC ends.., the sooner the better..,

The rear spoiler of a BNR34 is fully adjustable

doesn't the BNR34 have TWO spoilers, a fixed one and a the adjustable one??for those of you who don't know, you tend to see the two spoilers as one, because they are small.., look closely on the screen (or better yet, find a real one), and you will see a tiny but wide space on the spoiler..,

speaking of spoilers and downforce, how about a range of 5-7 for both front and rear??

 

[Rotary Junkie]

Well... I wouldn't be able to judge, as I'm going to have a tough time getting below a 1:40 in the Spirra, but...

I'd be competing anyways.

 

[nd 4 holden spd]

Didn't mean you specifically - I'll toy around and see what can be done for that - technically cheating is possible just using pictures, as there's no one single screen that contains all of the relevant data - a less honest person than yourself might use Racing tires to obtain a saved replay that quotes a faster time. Of course, let me say again, I don't mean you in specific, I don't think you'd cheat, by any means.

<edit> nevermind! Forgot you can't use race tires on a road car in arcade time trial. A photo of the saved ghost replay file in the replay theater menu should be fine.

Or just on the screen in arcade time trial mode, you know the screen where you can select start session. The one where you scroll over and there's the quick tune-up option? Ah, I'll just get a pic of it and get it up as soon as possible. It will show the session record, tyres used, and power level.

i know that, i'm just saying that we should soon come to a conclusion before the VTC ends.., the sooner the better..,

Sooner is not necessarily better for everyone, these challenges divert attention from our garages There won't be any huge time delays so fear not.

 

[Snyp]

I might judge if I'm wanted.

Just need to see my best lap in a Spirra

 

[Greycap]

I went and set a 1'36.857 lap time just to equal things out, more room in that lap so yeah, I think a 1'38 lap seems reasonable even though to me it seems rather easy to obtain. All I did to equal your timewas be less crazy Smooth operation of the vehicle and it only took 2 laps to get that time you and Grey got. Maybe even a 1'37.500 lap would be good.

Actually it was exactly one clean lap I put in with the Spirra to get that time... I bet I can do 1'35,xxx if needed but that's not the point.

The point is to make sure that the judges can handle the cars somewhat reasonably, it's a bit ridiculous to have judges that can't get within five seconds of the time run by the tuner as the car wouldn't be driven to the limits and thus some essential things about handling on the limit could be missed. The 1'38,000 limit was mainly my idea - CraftyLandShark wanted a bit lower - but seeing that I usually drive somewhere slightly behind the Gold licence pace that limit would be around the slowest time that would still yield Silver from a licence test on Infineon.

About the cheating, I would go with a photo of the session screen. The Arcade mode screen shows tweaked power and weight correctly, as well as the tyres. If the screen shows the top line as Proto Motors Spirra 4.6 V8 '04 / 383 bhp / 1084 kg / SS tyres there's no way to cheat as those are the best possible values anyway and the time shown on the screen is driven either with them or inferior ones, of which I could hardly care less.

 

[CraftyLandShark]

Speaking of the judge's test, does anyone know how to compress a .mov file? I have the AR Max, but my copy of GT4 is a "Greatest Hits" copy, which isn't compatible with AR Max's data transfer for some reason. That, or my PS2 is finally beginning to crap out. Either way, my replay for the lap is 22MB, and isn't cooperating with photobucket's uploader.

Another 3-lap session today yielded 1'36'051 on a lap that's still got some obvious imperfections, so you're right Grey, 1'35'xxx is well within the realm of possibility.

 

[Rotary Junkie]

Toss it on FileFront or e-mail it to me (If you have a Gmail account, it should be able to handle it) so I can host it there. I'll PM you my e-mail shortly.

 

[CraftyLandShark]

Got it to work, thanks though!

Here it is: Protomotors Spirra/SS/"WRS" Tune 1'36'051

Sorry for the crap quality - my digital camera is a dinosaur. Clicking "full size" in the bottom right, then maximizing the window, should help.

 

[Snyp]

Nice run mate

I agree that the 1'35.xxx time is possible, my run wasn't perfect. I've tried hard but couldn't manage to get a better time... Always messin' up on the last curve of the esses.... Or the last hairpin if I would get esses right
I'd like to judge a division so here's my result ;

 

[CraftyLandShark]

Likewise a nice run! 👍

That final righthander before the hairpin can definitely be tricky! One wrong move and you're off.

My biggest stumbling block in my first couple of laps was the very first corner, the lefthand reverse bank. I refused to brake for it as that costs a tenth or two, but if the lift leading up to it wasn't JUST right, it ended in disaster!

 

[Rotary Junkie]

My biggest stumbling block in my first couple of laps was the very first corner, the lefthand reverse bank. I refused to brake for it as that costs a tenth or two, but if the lift leading up to it wasn't JUST right, it ended in disaster!

Tell me about it... Then again, I haven't strung a clean lap together yet.

 

[nd 4 holden spd]

I have a lap of 1'35.813 with the Proto Spirra for the judging, but alas my digital camera is messing up, once I get it figured I will post the picture. (I seriously screwed up the final hairpin on this lap )

Edit: Here we go- not of the best quality in history but you can make out all the necessary info.

 

[Snyp]

Nice lap !!!

I'm going back to try to beat it
(i know it's not a competition, but it's still fun )

 

[CraftyLandShark]

At this rate, the competition to be a judge may become hotter than the competition to tune the best car! What breed of monster have we created?

 

[nd 4 holden spd]

Nice lap !!!

I'm going back to try to beat it
(i know it's not a competition, but it's still fun )

It should be easy enough for you, I messed up the final hairpin, broke too late and it shifted back to 1st (I used auto), didn't get a smooth run through it.

At this rate, the competition to be a judge may become hotter than the competition to tune the best car! What breed of monster have we created?

I was wondering that myself, the reason I wanted a 1'35 lap was to be the first one there (Couldn't help myself ) Anyways, I'd say I'm officially a judge now, except for in the budget catgeory that my Camaro fits in in phase 1.

Edit: I bet someone like stidriver would have no prob getting a 1'34 lap time

 

[Snyp]

I was able to beat my time yesterday but couldn't get into the 1'35.xxx

I'm a grip driver and this car always wants to drift on some corners... I'm learning how to handle drifts right now. I hate that car

 

[nd 4 holden spd]

I was able to beat my time yesterday but couldn't get into the 1'35.xxx

I'm a grip driver and this car always wants to drift on some corners... I'm learning how to handle drifts right now. I hate that car

I used to like it, now I hate it, pushing a car to those limits on that track really makes you want to push that car off a cliff. (Actually I kinda did, at the first corner I got annoyed and ran up the grass bank and got airbourne enough to jump the fence on the other side if there was no barrier). Drifting is also hard in this car as I said because it gets snap back. I wouldn't say I'm a drifter but I know how to powerslide a car when it's needed/happens which is a fundamental skill to a grip racer.