The next tuner challenge..

[VTiRoj]

I'm up for a budget cap, if the budget is something reasonable. For a fun contest 10,000 is fine, but for a tuning contest, how about 100,000? Thats enough for a good lot of parts, and the initial cost of the car. This would favour new cars or 6.2mile cars because refresh is 50,000, but it could be done.

Torque limit would be good as a class cap, keeps the V8's away from the Civic's.

 

[nd 4 holden spd]

hey, i think i might have a good idea.., why dont we give this new tuner challenge a twist , say how about a TORQUE LIMIT cap?? power limit cap can sometimes can be a disadvantage for some cars, like the RX-8.., i recently tuned a RX-8, compared it to my MR2.., the MR2 had 100+hp less than the RX-8, but its torque was greater so it was able to pull out the faster lap time.., who's with me??

But then some cars are too torquey for their power, not a bad idea though. I still like the idea of a budget cap most, but displacement oriented categories would be broader and possibly appeal to more.

By the way, if you are doing a budget cap you have to devise a system for the cars you win, and possibly exclude the cars you win and aren't worth anything for selling. Otherwise people will argue that they won the car, therefore it's free and have more money to spend on upgrades.

P.S. I don't really like the idea of power, or power to weight restrictions. Where's the fun in that? Restrictions like that would only be good if you are aiming to compare lap times and make that the primary judging criteria- speed.

 

[Leonidae]

hmmm.. I have this feeling that certain german car could be a winner in a 2l class.. Do I hear an approaching swarm of 120D's?

 

[eg6_dude]

S-class tyres FTW. I actually have some FWD's within the depths of my garage, and within some time, I'll release my interpretation of Megane R26. I also have plenty of nice plans for some other cars, as usual...

As do I...

An all FWD challenge would be awesome! I love FWD cars... I drive one and no they don't get enough attention... sure they are a little inclined to undesteerbut still a great challenge!

Very true! Although I like tuning every drivetrain type of car, FFs are often underappreciated in GT4. They are a blast to drive when properly modded and tuned, and have the possibility of being very fast, but they require a high level of skill to drive fast and some patience.

All your ideas are very good but someone needs to take the leader position and come up with a common set of rules before it becomes an endless discussion and no tuning! Lol!

-EG6_DUDE

 

[PARAGON GT]

By the way, if you are doing a budget cap you have to devise a system for the cars you win, and possibly exclude the cars you win and aren't worth anything for selling. Otherwise people will argue that they won the car, therefore it's free and have more money to spend on upgrades.

Prize cars, concept cars and others that do not have a price could be based off of their trade value. Everything has a price when you buy it off of another player. And the values of the cars are pretty close to the used price when buying. Although there are some that do cost less than if you buy them new. (Audi R8 costs around 500,000 less if purchased through trading)

If I remember right, most of them are somewhere around 20,000 credits or more depending on the car.

 

[Vander]

Prize cars, concept cars and others that do not have a price could be based off of their trade value. Everything has a price when you buy it off of another player. And the values of the cars are pretty close to the used price when buying. Although there are some that do cost less than if you buy them new. (Audi R8 costs around 500,000 less if purchased through trading)

If I remember right, most of them are somewhere around 20,000 credits or more depending on the car.

actually most of the non-priced prize cars trade for 200,000 credits.

Therefore they would be excluded from a 100,000cr tuning challenge.

Another idea would be to simply start a Tuning Series where every couple of weeks a new car is put up, and everyone tries to make the best tune for that specific car.

 

[CraftyLandShark]

All your ideas are very good but someone needs to take the leader position and come up with a common set of rules before it becomes an endless discussion and no tuning! Lol!

-EG6_DUDE

There's already a challenge going on right now that runs through the 16th of February, followed by a period of judging that has yet to be determined - this thread is just to plan the challenge to follow it, so there's plenty of time 👍 If you want to tune competitively now, check out the Phase 2 link in my sig for the Vintage Tuner Cup.

While it would be great for the price of the car to factor into the budget, that DOES severely limit cars that can only be won once or trade-bought for 200,000cr. I did some thinking last night and I think there are a few things that just shouldn't be taken into account in the budget, firstly the price of the car. Obviously there are situations where this could theoretically pose a disadvantage to some cars, but as is evidenced from Tuner Challenge v.2, a well-sorted S2000 can roast a rare and expensive Cadillac Cien. Among other things that we should consider making "free" in budget terms would be one of the base level suspensions, leaving the option to buy the FC if the tuner wants (there has to be something to tune), and potentially the FC transmission. Tires might be worth considering too, although that might be a good item to leave in the budget. With some of these items considered free, a budget much smaller than 100,000 would be fine - say somewhere in the 30,000-50,000cr. range.

Now to power. A torque cap would pose exactly the same problem in reverse as a power cap - plenty of cars make much more power than they do torque - and both power AND torque caps completely discount weight, which is just as important. WPR seems to be the best solution if power capping is involved. Both TCv2 and the VTC use no power cap, so it'd be interesting to see one in place this time. It'll also force a little bit more creativity in the tuning process. I have a feeling too many people would spend their entire remaining budget on a stage 3 turbo and engine bits if we had no power caps.

 

[Vander]

I have to agree with CLS here about WPR being the only real way to cap the power, anything else can really be taken advantage of, and the tuner challenges should be about tuning first and foremost not just picking the 'best' car because the game favors it.

As far as the budget goes if FC Suspension and FC Transmission are free thats only cutting out about $30,000 worth of supplies. Why not just leave it at $100,000 and say buy what you want and may the best man win.

as far as car price being thrown into the mix I think there are enough cars in the game with actual price listings to not have to fear running out of them. For the special cars there can always be different tuning challenges.

Who cares if they spend the rest of their budget on a stage three turbo, that would leave them too little monet to actually make the car be able to handle it. So they wouldn't win anyway.

 

[CraftyLandShark]

I have no problem with the price of the car being included if nobody will miss the unobtainable cars. My worry about not requiring a free suspension (not necessarily the FC - I was thinking maybe the Semi-Racing) is that without it or the transmission, the two most major adjustable parts are gone - it could potentially become a "bolt-on" challenge rather than a tuner challenge. With a high budget in the 100,000 cr. range, that's less of a problem, but power is what eats up the biggest bulk of the money in most builds. That means, with a WPR cap in place, on some cars - say for instance an 11,500cr. Supra 2.5 GT - almost everything else that matters can still be bought - there wouldn't be much budgeting involved.

All that said, there are benefits and drawbacks to any of these plans. We DO need someone to assume the responsibility of making the final decisions. I'm currently running the Vintage Tuner Cup so I'll have my hands a bit full as it begins to draw to a close. If nobody else is willing to take the helm on this one I will, but I'd love to see someone else go for it 👍

 

[Greycap]

Well, the WPR can be taken advantage of too, depending on the track. If we have a car with 200 bhp, 200 Nm and 800 kg (about the specs of the Elise) and a car with 400 bhp, 400 Nm and 1600 kg (about the specs of the Nismo 400R) their straight line speed doesn't differ that much but the lighter one will just about murder the heavier one in corners, as well as feel a lot nicer to drive. With the same WPR there is no doubt about which one would get better ratings.

 

[Vander]

that's pretty true too, ultimately I suppose there really is no way to balance out power/torgue/wpr in the game because each car is so different

That's why a budget challenge would be pretty cool

*as a side note* why doesn't anyone ever mess with the race cars?

 

[CraftyLandShark]

We could get into complex handicapping formulae to even things out, but frankly I'd rather be torn asunder by rabid bears than mess with anything that complicated.

I have to agree - combining a budget and a WPR cap, while not perfect, is definitely the best potential equalizer we've got.

On the race car front, I'm not entirely sure. I'm guessing it's because there's not nearly as much room for improvement with them, and not nearly as broad a selection.

 

[VTiRoj]

I think its because race cars rely too much on downforce to really be worth tuning like a street car.

I think capping WPR would be a bit annoying, since you gotta keep checking the garage to see if you've gone over, but if it keeps the playing field even, then I'm up for it.

 

[Vander]

lol@the rabid bears. . .better than honey badgers I suppose.

budget and wpr cap work for me, I might even build a car for a budget challenge.

as far as improvement in the race car class, they still start with basic default settings, I'm sure many of them could be vastly improved. I mean I took a 250mph car and made it a 369.99mph car through tuning alone. The handling characteristics should be able to be improved just as much.

I think its because race cars rely too much on downforce to really be worth tuning like a street car.

I think capping WPR would be a bit annoying, since you gotta keep checking the garage to see if you've gone over, but if it keeps the playing field even, then I'm up for it.

downforce is our friend though, and this is about tuning in GT4 and race cars make up a pretty significant portion of the game IMO plus some of them just look sweet; as far as an even playing field the budget is the equalizer in and of itself. You have this much money go make the best car PERIOD. It's not like one person using a car eliminates it for everyone else, but each and every car will be different and I'll think it'll be a rewarding experience all around.

maybe even have 3 classes

the $50,000 total class (free suspension and transmission, but car price does matter)
the $100,000 tuning class (nothings free car price does matter)
the $150,000 (Car price doesn't matter)

 

[CraftyLandShark]

I think its because race cars rely too much on downforce to really be worth tuning like a street car.

I think capping WPR would be a bit annoying, since you gotta keep checking the garage to see if you've gone over, but if it keeps the playing field even, then I'm up for it.

If you keep a calculator on hand, you can just divide it out yourself as you change power in the tuning screen - weight reductions can't be undone anyway, so once you're at a certain level of weight, that'll remain a constant.

Either way, you're right, budget building is going to require a lot of constant tabulation I think it'll be worth it in the end though.

Regarding the race cars - you're right, they definitely CAN be improved. I think there's something somehow more rewarding though about buying all those tuning parts for a bone-stock streetcar and turning it into a purebred racer Either way though, it would be nice if there was enough interest for a pure racecar tuning challenge. Maybe there is? Can't hurt to find out.

 

[VTiRoj]

downforce is our friend though, and this is about tuning in GT4 and race cars make up a pretty significant portion of the game IMO plus some of them just look sweet; as far as an even playing field the budget is the equalizer in and of itself. You have this much money go make the best car PERIOD. It's not like one person using a car eliminates it for everyone else, but each and every car will be different and I'll think it'll be a rewarding experience all around.

Race cars do look sweet I agree (*drools over FTO Super Touring Car*), but I think downforce masks some of the hard work people put into detailled suspension. But it does help in the long run.

If you keep a calculator on hand, you can just divide it out yourself as you change power in the tuning screen - weight reductions can't be undone anyway, so once you're at a certain level of weight, that'll remain a constant.

Either way, you're right, budget building is going to require a lot of constant tabulation I think it'll be worth it in the end though.

Well I got the calculator, so I'm sorted then

I'm used to constantly working out prices of parts, I've done a few budget-capped GT4 challenges myself, and I enjoy them lots

 

[CraftyLandShark]

Something else occured to me while doing a little research. There IS one tuning part that really should be allowed free if a budget is in place - the rigidity refresher.

Not only does it have a significant impact on handling, it's prohibitively expensive under any sort of reasonable budget. Add to that the fact that many used cars are likely to show up in this challenge - their levels of chassis rigidity loss are going to vary by mileage, even within the same model, so for the sake of judging it's probably best that this be allowed free to ensure a level playing field. We shouldn't have one judge driving a 30,000 mile unrefreshed Skyline while another is driving a 15,000 mile Skyline, while another still may have a 6.2mile/10KM special.

Also, this brings up another issue - the price of a used car varies depending on its mileage. It would be impractical to demand that each judge wait for each used car long enough to get EXACTLY the model that has, say, 52,576 miles on it, cosing 8756 credits, vs. the one that has 42,329 miles on it, costing 9937 credits. This shouldn't play an issue in power figures for significantly older cars - engine loss, once suffered, is usually permanent and fixed, but some cars DO ride that threshold of 'availability at a certain mileage vs. power and rigidity loss'.

It seems the only really decent way to solve this is with a free rigidity refresher, and assuming the only distinction in price should be between 6.2 mile/10KM specials and cars which aren't. Thoughts?

 

[Rotary Junkie]

Well, it seems that from my experience, the only true difference is in 6.2mi/10km specials against high-mileage cars, as the cars, once worn, make the same power.

But yes, the refresher should be allowed and NOT counted against the budget.

 

[CraftyLandShark]

Yeah that's a tough one... there's no real way to quantify and scale the rigidity loss, so thereby no way to know whether, once its happened, whether it gets progressively worse or not. It doesn't SEEM to, but who knows with PD.

 

[nd 4 holden spd]

If refresher is free I might go a second hand Chevy, which would be good performance for price. I have a thought though, if you are using a budget cap then performance relative to WPR has to be a major judging criteria otherwise the budget cap is pointless. With a budget cap you're seeing who can make the best and fastest cars for a cheap price. Not the best handling as that can be done without a budget.

 

[VTiRoj]

Refresh being free is a good idea. Oil costs so little, it doesnt matter if thats free or not.

I've driven a few cars past the point where they need chassis refresh, and I never feel a difference, mainly due to the fact I probably unknowingly got used to it, but still, laptimes didnt get worse at all.

 

[CraftyLandShark]

If refresher is free I might go a second hand Chevy, which would be good performance for price. I have a thought though, if you are using a budget cap then performance relative to WPR has to be a major judging criteria otherwise the budget cap is pointless. With a budget cap you're seeing who can make the best and fastest cars for a cheap price. Not the best handling as that can be done without a budget.

Yeah, that's pretty much a given at this point - if there's a WPR cap in place, lap times relative to WPR will play more of a factor than in previous challenges. Not a HUGE factor as a lot of outright speed still owes to the innate characteristics of each car (i.e. an R34 beating an Impreza across Fuji because the tuned R34 tops out MUCH higher), but still a factor that could tip the balance.

 

[Megasoft Office]

The free chassis rigidity restoration is a good idea. the budget limitation doesn't mix too well for me. Class and/or parts limitation would work better and would not stake so much driving feel in the choice of a base car.

 

[CraftyLandShark]

The problem there is that very strict class limitation severely narrows the field of available cars - there have to be enough cars entered in a given division to make a competition worth having. Using a WPR cap combined with displacement classes and a budget should probably be enough. It allows flexibility in car selection, only 4 needed divisions, and an across-the-board equalizer that makes things much more challenging and talent-based.

 

[mustangGT90210]

How about a Japaneese FF Tuner challenge? Max 450hp on S tires.

I can see the rice already!

That could be a serious challenge.

 

[Megasoft Office]

How about a Japaneese FF Tuner challenge? Max 450hp on S tires.

I can see the rice already!

That could be a serious challenge.

I can't be the only one who honestly thinks that's ridiculously high for FF cars. But if everyone's that obsessed with that much power, then I'd might as well hit it.

 

[CraftyLandShark]

LOL no, you're right, that's a fantastically high power level for an FF. There are VERY few that can reasonably handle more than 250 hp.

 

[Kent]

Can I make a suggestion?

Keep working with the original themes I posted and try to avoid tight regulations that will limit the entries. In the first TC we found only a handful of entries, atleast one of which was a seriously weak effort to modify and build a tuner.
In TC2 we used Drivetrain and got atleast as many entries in all three of the categories... Even the thinnest category of tc2 had more entries than tc1 did in total.

So with all that in mind, I suggest...
NA vs Turbo: no hp limit, no weight limit, only N tires, all comparisons to be run on a single track, only designated judges.

Each category is judged independantly, then one from each class is selected (in an effort to create the closest possible race) and those two serve as the base of an open spot race here on the GTP forums.

That's the touge challenge, what do you all think?
(btw, I'd like to thank everyone for contributing ideas that allowed me to present this proposal).

 

[Megasoft Office]

^ That's a retread of what I've been meaning to say. But said more eloquently, to say the least. Thankfully, I'm not the only one who finds that tuning for driving feel becomes diluted with higher grip tires.

 

[Rotary Junkie]

Driving feel definitely DOES become diluted with higher grip tires, however, a tune for low-grip tires does not always translate into a great setup for higher grip tires.