The No Driving Assist Tuner Challenge

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This was my feedback from the FITT Wagon Challenge related to handling.

"Ridox2JZGTE Nissan Stagea 25t RS Four S '98 fast lap 1:23.903
This car needs more mid-corner grip. The LSD settings look good. The brake balance looks good. I would recommend a few things. First, play with some negative front toe and see if that increases front grip. Also try more front camber like 2.6, 2.7, 2.8 or 2.9. ARBs seem reversed to me. The car is not rotating around the center, around the apex. I would also try higher front springs and lower rear. All of these things may help a little."

Help me to understand how ABS 0 would provide more mid-corner grip? Your response was pretty much that you liked the settings the way you did them.

Why are you putting the burden of proof onto us? Just asking for some simple explanations to how you feel ABS 0 tuning is quite different, beyond some brake balance adjustments, which you think should be personalized anyway. I'm not following.
 
Motor City Hami
This was my feedback from the FITT Wagon Challenge related to handling.

"Ridox2JZGTE Nissan Stagea 25t RS Four S '98 fast lap 1:23.903
This car needs more mid-corner grip. The LSD settings look good. The brake balance looks good. I would recommend a few things. First, play with some negative front toe and see if that increases front grip. Also try more front camber like 2.6, 2.7, 2.8 or 2.9. ARBs seem reversed to me. The car is not rotating around the center, around the apex. I would also try higher front springs and lower rear. All of these things may help a little."

Help me to understand how ABS 0 would provide more mid-corner grip? Your response was pretty much that you liked the settings the way you did them.

Why are you putting the burden of proof onto us? Just asking for some simple explanations to how you feel ABS 0 tuning is quite different, beyond some brake balance adjustments, which you think should be personalized anyway. I'm not following.
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Why is it much to ask for you to try my Deadnuts tunes with ABS 0 ? Alright, if you ask me for an explanation, ABS 0 gives less tendency of understeer compared to ABS 1, mainly when braking and the car also feels more alive in upon entry and exit of corners. These are with stock tune, when tuning with ABS 0, I can do away with more understeer approach as it will be negated with ABS 0 when driven due to my driving style ( threshold + trail braking deep into the apex )

Such driving style leads me to tune most of my cars to requires aggressive turn in and trail braking in corner entry, this is reflected in my high BB + front bias around 7/5 to 10/8 - I can also run lower BB 5/3 usually with same result in lap times. This is fine with ABS 0, but when driven with ABS 1, the handling and braking of the car somewhat different, it will push under braking due ABS itself and different style of suspension tune. This will still happen often even with lower BB, I also have tendency to put + front toe, lower camber on some cars, and reversed spring rate + ARB than most ABS 1 car have.

Most FR cars I tuned have higher spring at the rear than front and lower damper at front than rear. Which is the reason I ask you to try my Scion FRS and Maserati GranTurismo tune for Trial Mountain Reverse, the car's suspension + LSD settings may not be your cup of tea, but it works when driven with no ABS.
A fellow Deadnuts driver - FerrariDude308 used my Maserati tune with little tweak in lowering the ride height and it perform great for him ( he's a G27 no ABS driver ) . I am curious to hear your feedback on these 2 cars with ABS 0.

The other reason my tunes does not work well with ABS 1 I believe is because I often intentionally put suspension + LSD settings that will make the car more prone to understeer in order to get more stability - less oversteer, so I can trail brake deep into the apex with ABS 0 while maintaining sharper response to driver input. The side effect of this are : the car often needs precise brake and throttle play even with ABS 0 and usually less mid corner grip with ABS 1.

This has gone off topic I think, I may not enter any car or test them anyway as my PS3 still in pieces waiting to be fixed :( I have long waited for no ABS shootout so I can be a tester again :( My main tuning activity usually are at FITT Touge Showdown and Deadnutseven, where most of my tunes works well in the format, I guess I will stay there.
 
Ridox2JZGTE - not looking to run you off. Just trying to understand why ABS, which is only active in the braking zone would drastically change a tune?
 
All I can say is ABS make the car more stable when driven while no ABS makes the car more alive, ask any no ABS driver like CoteDazur, JohhnyPenso, FerrariDude308, Morgoth666, NCRThree, CJspencer and a few others.

The immediate feel that I experienced with ABS 1 is that the car can be driven more aggressively with less drama than with ABS 0, the tune itself can also be more varied in settings value with ABS 1.

Having too much negative rear/front toe or toe difference + and - , too much camber, difference in spring rates/camber/ARB, and brake balance will make ABS 0 car very difficult to handle around the track - mainly braking and corner entry, but will still be okay with ABS 1 - the ABS will help to make the car more stable.

The tune would not be drastic in changes just because of ABS 0, but in my case it was more to my driving and tuning style/preferences.

I am fine with this discussion MC Hami, it's just that most people dislike my tune :( unless they are ABS 0 driver too.
 
Because braking stability is very dependent on suspension set up, if this element is removed from the equation (as it is with ASB 1 and above) the tuner is free to use settings that would otherwise not work out so well.

For a quick example Camber and Toe. The more aggressive you are on your camber setting the more unstable the braking becomes and even dramatically increases braking distance. We use it for cornering grip, we have to tune the balance of increased cornering grip, with the reduced straight line grip that it comes with. ABS in GT has always had more impact on handling then just the braking it seems to make the tires stickier and its a weird sorta form of SFR preventing skids. Toe is used to stabilize the car, it comes with slowing acceleration and top speed, but is less required to do so if that tuned in stability is no longer required allowing for less aggressive toe settings resulting in better acceleration and higher top speeds, the balance we tune in is how much can we stabilize the car without hurting acceleration and top speed too much..... These factors still present but highly faded when ABS is used.

Even spring rates,and dampers affecting how the suspension loads and unloads, all these can be tuned much differently (often much more aggressive) than when the stability slowing the car down is dependent on the suspension being dialed in along with the brake balance.

The brake balance setting when ABS is used becomes much more driver style oriented as with the ABS Turned off the brakes NEED to be dialed in to the chassis, weight and balance of the car and the driver preference only varies SLIGHTLY from there inside whats acceptable to the chassis, weight and balance......

If many feel the tune will be no different, I invite you to participate as a tuner to see just how true or untrue that is...
 
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XDesperado67
Since tuners will be allowed 2 entries why not have 2 classes, a 500PP SM and a 550PP SS?
Thinking I've got a couple cars already that would be pretty fun to drive with those even if they wouldn't be the fastest.
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Hello Mr wallbanger. So, what's going to be finaly. 500PP and 550PP ??? or 600PP like writen in the OP rules ???
 
Still weighing in options leaning to maybe 525pp and allow the wing, just Id like to change it one time only so I'm holding back until closer to the deadline (midnight) I like to hear as much input from members as possible.
 
I'm more in favour of 525PP, if only because for most of us, this'll be our first proper venture into the world of no ABS. Ridox has the experience advantage on us here. :p
 
I would love a 525PP contest , my RUF yellow bird with original power and weight is 528PP .

Weight: 1,170 kilograms (2,579 lb)
Power: 469 hp (350 kW) @ 5950 rpm
Torque: 408 lb·ft (553 N·m) @ 5100 rpm

I'm tuning it with Sport medium , because the times
0-60 mph: 3.7 sec
0-125 mph: 11.6 sec
Quarter mile: 11.9 @ 126.3 mph (203.3 km/h)
seems to match with SM tires too......
 
Motor City Hami
Ridox2JZGTE - not looking to run you off. Just trying to understand why ABS, which is only active in the braking zone would drastically change a tune?
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For my own driving style having Abs on creates alot of understeer an its near impossible to get a good lap although saying that i spent a full night learning abs1 for TT 54 where i finished 45th in the world not bad for DFGT Wheel but apart from that i find that Abs Off makes the car under braking completely different.. i still use as low as 5 on braking decel.. i like to turn a corner under the brake using my steering style an decel to manouver the car.. for me it would change weight transfer an a change in weight transfer means a new setup.. because under braking is where time is gained an lossed.. :)
 
praiano63
I would love a 525PP contest , my RUF yellow bird with original power and weight is 528PP .
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Praiano - I think you just gave me a reason to enter this competition. I am working on a Yellow Bird tune right now. Would be fun to have two Yellow Birds entered. Mine is at 533PP in stock, broken in, engine rebuild/oil change condition. Could add some ballast to make it 525PP.
 
Motor City Hami
Praiano - I think you just gave me a reason to enter this competition. I am working on a Yellow Bird tune right now. Would be fun to have two Yellow Birds entered. Mine is at 533PP in stock, broken in, engine rebuild/oil change condition. Could add some ballast to make it 525PP.
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I'm using power limiter to reach 469HP (stock specs). The weight in the game is 1150kg , but the original is 1170kg . I think i will use also this, 20kg to play with the balance. No more than this for me because i would like to stick as close as possible to the real one, without gears ,suspension , LSD ,that are crucials to make this car work. I'm using 2/0 brake balance for the moment.
Pilot car for sure but very fun.
 
I admit I am curious to see just how much a difference turning off ABS will make. Count me in to test drive the tunes but I don't think I will subject folks to driving one of mine.
 
I'm thinking maybe I want to test-drive. But I'm still not proficient with ABS 0 driving. I've done it before and it wasn't easy. But I think I could learn a lot from testing in this.

So a tentative tester is me.
 
For those wanting to get a little more familiar with 0 ABS, jump in a Stock 370Z or your choice car, just leave it stock and run around with the ABS off. Might wanna grab a AWD to make it a bit easier. GTR is a good easy car to drive 0 ABS

I would suggest a brake set up that is a generally a good start with 0 ABS but I don't want to get people used to it like that if other tuners use different styles.

Rules will be updated to make this step less of a jump from the norm, as if it goes well we can maybe push it harder


ADJUSTLEMT to THE RULES
525PPMax / Wing Allowed / Sports Soft Tires

The winner is 2 part tuner 1 part driver.

Tune with the best average lap time wins Top Track Star Award, Driver with Fastest Lap wins Corner Carver Award, Tune with the best feel voted on by drivers wins the Special Drivers Choice Award
 
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AWD's and FF's are the easiest to tune with no ABS given their inherent tendency to understeeer. No ABS brings them closer to MR's as far as turn in goes in many cases, assuming you get close to lockup but don't.

Tuning a Yellowbird on SS at 525 PP with no ABS is going to be tough. I may just have to test drive that to see if I'm up to the challenge:nervous::crazy::scared:. I think you get more weight transfer or at least GT5's version of it without ABS. You'll have to brake only in a straightline in the 'Bird and even then you'll feel the back end move around I'm guessing, especially in the first corner and into the chicane. Maybe I should take a crack at the BTR just for laughs. :sly:
 
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Johnnypenso
AWD's and FF's are the easiest to tune with no ABS given their inherent tendency to understeeer. No ABS brings them closer to MR's as far as turn in goes in many cases, assuming you get close to lockup but don't.

Tuning a Yellowbird on SS at 525 PP with no ABS is going to be tough. I may just have to test drive that to see if I'm up to the challenge:nervous::crazy::scared:. I think you get more weight transfer or at least GT5's version of it without ABS. You'll have to brake only in a straightline in the 'Bird and even then you'll feel the back end move around I'm guessing, especially in the first corner and into the chicane. Maybe I should take a crack at the BTR just for laughs. :sly:
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I have the same thought in this line of reasoning was working on a CTR ' 96
and it turns out that reported not accept corrugated curve brake.:yuck:
 
@FaetASheck are Tuners still allowed 2 entries or just 1?

Have a no ABS Berlinette R/S Coupe at 508PP that I'm running 1:41s with currently...(car can't reach 525PP:lol:)
Fun easy car to drive.:cheers:
 
XDesperado67
@FaetASheck are Tuners still allowed 2 entries or just 1?

Have a no ABS Berlinette R/S Coupe at 508PP that I'm running 1:41s with currently...(car can't reach 525PP:lol:)
Fun easy car to drive.:cheers:
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No point in me even entering this contest as I'm 26 seconds off the pace already:sly: I just tried out a couple of cars. BTR in the 2:09's and another in the 2:07's. I doubt either one would be competitive but 1:41's are out of this world...unless..it's the...wrong track:dopey::dunce:
 
:banghead:I've been testing on the wrong track:dunce:
Been running GP/D not GP/F.:drool:

@Johnnypenso your times a very good I think. Real quick test with my S15 had me running 2:12s on GP/F.
Turn 1 and the chicane keep giving me problems as usual.:dopey:
 
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I would enter, but as Onboy can testify the last time I accidentally switched ABS off in an online lounge, I cannot drive for my life with ABS off, never mind getting semi-consistent laps to tune with.
 

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