The Nurburgring World Tour Mega-Report

[Krypton78]

I use CSA and TCS in sport mode, sometimes both together sometimes only one of them. I don't know why I should leave the advantage to my competitors.

And not all of us want to be proffessionals. If the assitss will be not allowed, you will have not a single clean race, esspecially in lower DR races. And that will lower the common frustration?

 

[Crazy Taylor]

Yes if it's not allowed at these events, which judging of this one it isn't, then it needs banning from Sport Mode too (dailies and FIA) and I say this as someone who uses it quite a bit. Otherwise I'll still have to use it to compete against others around my level who still use it. I won't catch the top guys regardless, even if I use it and they all now don't as they want to practice for these events, so that is not really the issue, unless some of them are still using it of course.

Maybe they should just ban CSA in the top rank. If events ban certain assists, then its sink of swim for those (in the top ranks) who still use the likes of CSA and TCS.

 

[_ApexPredator]

Maybe they should just ban CSA in the top rank. If events ban certain assists, then its sink of swim for those (in the top ranks) who still use the likes of CSA and TCS.

I think that's a good idea.

I pretty much agree with all of the above posts too, both sides of the argument :S
Like Ash I'd rather not use it but if those around me are and I feel the car & track combination is such that CSA can be advantageous then I'd rather not handicap myself (I'm not fast enough!); but banning it from Sport mode all together would be a bit knee-jerk, think of the more casual players (I know I know, "Sport mode" & "Casual", but so far they've blended those quite nicely).

Tough to argue against the suggestion to prohibit it from A+ and/or the FIA races, but honestly I think the best thing to do is if you do take the game more seriously than most, as Mclaren says, just get used to not using it, you'll be faster for it in the long run.

 

[Azerach]

think of the more casual players (I know I know, "Sport mode" & "Casual", but so far they've blended those quite nicely).

If the stats are anything to go by (75% of players have never gone to sport mode), the casuals are playing the offline events, GT league etc.

Maybe for the D rank but anythig above shouldn't have it.

 

[Tou2istTrophy]

If CSA was never a thing in the first place, or it was just way too instrusive in the first place (cutting throttle every time it activates etc.), no one would be saying “CSA is too weak”, “needs to be buffed” etc.

It’s a shame that is so common and people defend it when it shouldn’t even be in the game as it is, and if it was not, they wouldn’t care to justify it being made competitive... just like no one cares about active-braking (imagine if that was just as competitive... people would be justifying that too LOL!)

 

[DriftMethod]

If the stats are anything to go by (75% of players have never gone to sport mode), the casuals are playing the offline events, GT league etc.

Maybe for the D rank but anythig above shouldn't have it.

The obvious reverse to that is if only 25% of players have used Sport Mode, why would PD jeopardize losing some of those players by removing CSA (or any other assist) from Sport Mode? I think Gran Turismo fills the niche between a racing game and a racing sim. Making it harder to drive will lose the masses, but making it too easy will lose it's relevance.

Looking at stats, 1243 accounts are A+ DR, out of over 500,000 with D DR or better (I'm purposefully leaving off the half million with an E DR.) With all the alternate accounts, there are a lot less than 1243 different people with A+ DR rating. So any discussion saying CSA makes it too easy is not backed up by stats. CSA is available to everyone, so it's fair in that sense, but it also encourages people to participate, because without a large enough pool of players, Sport Mode would be a failure.

We still don't know how the real FIA season will work, but based on the Nurb World Tour event, I would expect at some point they will start removing assists. My guess is that will only occur at the live in-person events, but who knows? Best advice to that extremely small number of people with a chance of winning might be to learn to drive without TCS and CSA, but at this point use whatever assists it takes to win. Honestly, I don't think this advice is anything new to that group of people anyway.

Which leaves us with the large majority of players, why do you even care if CSA is allowed? Is it really that important to jeopardize Sport Mode because someone with equal skills can go 0.3 seconds faster with CSA (or some other assist)?

 

[Venster]

I wouldn’t want assists to be removed, not everyone can drive without and this is a game that should appeal to everyone. I don’t use them myself but I still believe they should be there to be used. However, IMO at the top of the game I would expect assists be used less and perhaps limit the assists available.

 

[Krypton78]

I was able to chat to Kaz for about 20 minutes

How cool is that!

Every... month... if you didn't figure that out already...?

No. No I didn't. Its not the most respectful question is it really.

I'm 100% with you. But you could have asked him about the 75k cap. Because I remember that you top-DR-guys were complaining about it and that it holds you off from the daylies (nothing to win, but much to lose). Would be interesting what he would have said about it.

 

[Macboyilija]

Which leaves us with the large majority of players, why do you even care if CSA is allowed? Is it really that important to jeopardize Sport Mode because someone with equal skills can go 0.3 seconds faster with CSA (or some other assist)?

There are discussion threads about this already. Maybe better not to get into that here. But I totally disagree with your statement. To each his own right to care because to me it means less fun if others drive with such aids.

https://www.gtplanet.net/forum/threads/poll-what-aid-tools-in-sport-mode-should-be-allowed.374648/

https://www.gtplanet.net/forum/thre...ulous-and-should-be-banned-for-wheels.374476/

 

[tofuhero]

I think after seeing the second day of races, I'm not that fond of the wheel camera view. It looks cool at times, but can also be disorienting and doesn't really provide good information about the race itself. I'd much rather see more traditional race views like overheads and long-distance helicopter shots with a bit of shaky cam.

 

[DriftMethod]

There are discussion threads about this already. Maybe better not to get into that here. But I totally disagree with your statement. To each his own right to care because to me it means less fun if others drive with such aids.

https://www.gtplanet.net/forum/threads/poll-what-aid-tools-in-sport-mode-should-be-allowed.374648/

https://www.gtplanet.net/forum/thre...ulous-and-should-be-banned-for-wheels.374476/

Funny that you pick out my comment to recommend not getting into that here, when you brought up prohibiting CSA in Sport Mode in this thread.

I know there are other threads about CSA, but this is entirely relevant here since OP brought up CSA and TCS being banned during the event and advised people that are serious to stop using them. I added my caveat that they should not only learn to not use them, but use whatever assists it takes to win now. Point being what good will it do you to not use assists if you can't qualify for the live events without them?

I was also making the point that Sport Mode depends on having lots of players. Events like the one OP attended, the upcoming FIA races, and other live events all depend on the success of Sport Mode. Again, I feel my comments were entirely relevant.

 

[cleanLX]

@mclarenLB , thanks for sharing.

And not all of us want to be proffessionals. If the assitss will be not allowed, you will have not a single clean race, esspecially in lower DR races. And that will lower the common frustration?

I've yet to see, or be part of an un-clean incident that would have been prevented with CSA or TCS being on, or "better".
Poor decisions, impatience, aggression, and outright malice are never going to be fixed with CSA, TCS, ASC... the list goes on.
Dirty racers are not the product of their limited car control, they are dirty racers due to mind set... be it intentional, or ignorance.
My .02

 

[DriftMethod]

@mclarenLB , thanks for sharing.


I've yet to see, or be part of an un-clean incident that would have been prevented with CSA or TCS being on, or "better".
Poor decisions, impatience, aggression, and outright malice are never going to be fixed with CSA, TCS, ASC... the list goes on.
Dirty racers are not the product of their limited car control, they are dirty racers due to mind set... be it intentional, or ignorance.
My .02

Of course there will always be dirty players. I think the point is that CSA and TCS helps people (that are trying to race clean) control their car and avoid accidents. That makes for cleaner racing, especially at the lower levels where car control is not a given like at the higher levels.

 

[Mr616]

Of course there will always be dirty players. I think the point is that CSA and TCS helps people (that are trying to race clean) control their car and avoid accidents. That makes for cleaner racing, especially at the lower levels where car control is not a given like at the higher levels.

And in DR:A and DR:S it should be banned. High level should not be leaning on that feature any more imo and PD don't want it at top events. I'm glad PD banned it for this one.

I'm all for it helping new drivers, but there comes a time the training wheels must come off and DR:A and Dr:S shouldn't need it.

Edit: I wonder if that is the twist to DR:S returning. No TCS, ASM or CSA?

 

[DriftMethod]

And in DR:A and DR:S it should be banned. High level should not be leaning on that feature any more imo and PD don't want it at top events. I'm glad PD banned it for this one.

I'm all for it helping new drivers, but there comes a time the training wheels must come off and DR:A and Dr:S shouldn't need it.

Edit: I wonder if that is the twist to DR:S returning. No TCS, ASM or CSA?

DR A starts at 30,000 points and DR A+ goes up to 75,000. That's a huge spread of skill, so although I disagree with banning assists at all, I think it's completely unreasonable to set a limit at those levels. They'd also have to work out some details that would definitely upset people. How frustrating would it be to work up to A, then lose your ability to use assists and get booted back to B after a miserable race spinning and ruining other people's races? Then do it all over again? That alone would be enough to make people want to quit playing.

After all that disagreement, maybe you're on to something with bringing back S. It might be ok for A+ drivers to voluntarily choose to not use assists and be designated as S. Of course, that would introduce it's own issues. Would they ban the biggest training wheel of all; ABS? How would S drivers feel about getting beaten by lower rated drivers when using the cars (or karts) that really benefit from the assists? Some drivers near the cap mention not playing to save their rating. This would make it much worse. Yeah, I need to take that back and disagree with you on that point too.

 

[tofuhero]

DR A starts at 30,000 points and DR A+ goes up to 75,000. That's a huge spread of skill, so although I disagree with banning assists at all, I think it's completely unreasonable to set a limit at those levels. They'd also have to work out some details that would definitely upset people. How frustrating would it be to work up to A, then lose your ability to use assists and get booted back to B after a miserable race spinning and ruining other people's races? Then do it all over again? That alone would be enough to make people want to quit playing.

After all that disagreement, maybe you're on to something with bringing back S. It might be ok for A+ drivers to voluntarily choose to not use assists and be designated as S. Of course, that would introduce it's own issues. Would they ban the biggest training wheel of all; ABS? How would S drivers feel about getting beaten by lower rated drivers when using the cars (or karts) that really benefit from the assists? Some drivers near the cap mention not playing to save their rating. This would make it much worse. Yeah, I need to take that back and disagree with you on that point too.

As someone in B/S, I'd be glad to at least have CSA and ASM banned in DR B and above. Anyone at my level or above should be able to race without those significant assists. I race the Ferrari Gr.3 without CSA all the time now. I feel that those assists provide an significantly increased amount of stability on kurbs and grass, which reduces the risk/reward factor of tracks like Brands and can have a real impact on someone's competitiveness who runs without assists. No TCS is a tougher ask; Gr.3 MR cars like the Ferrari and Gr.2 cars are really tough when accelerating out of low gear without at least TC 1 on.

 

[Tou2istTrophy]

Of course there will always be dirty players. I think the point is that CSA and TCS helps people (that are trying to race clean) control their car and avoid accidents. That makes for cleaner racing, especially at the lower levels where car control is not a given like at the higher levels.

It can still help people control their car and avoid accidents without being so competitive. I don’t want the assist completely banned in every sport race, just not worth using for anyone taking it seriously. That way, you cater to both casual and serious racers.

 

[DriftMethod]

As someone in B/S, I'd be glad to at least have CSA and ASM banned in DR B and above. Anyone at my level or above should be able to race without those significant assists. I race the Ferrari Gr.3 without CSA all the time now. I feel that those assists provide an significantly increased amount of stability on kurbs and grass, which reduces the risk/reward factor of tracks like Brands and can have a real impact on someone's competitiveness who runs without assists. No TCS is a tougher ask; Gr.3 MR cars like the Ferrari and Gr.2 cars are really tough when accelerating out of low gear without at least TC 1 on.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I'm guessing that ASM isn't mentioned much because it doesn't have a competitive benefit. From my limited understanding of ASM, it really slows you down. On this point alone, I don't think anyone uses it at the higher levels, so a ban is completely unnecessary.

I'm honestly not quite sure what to make of your CSA and TCS comments. It seems like you are basing what is and isn't acceptable on your personal opinion and skill level. While the Ferrari might be notoriously hard to drive, it seems to cater to your preference to allow TCS, but not CSA, and maybe not taking all cars and players into consideration.

I watched a couple Gr. 2 fastest lap videos of some of the best drivers and saw they weren't using TCS or CSA, so the argument could be made that everyone is overstating how much they help at the higher levels. Maybe they can or did go faster with CSA and it's a matter of pride to not use it, I don't know because I'm nowhere near their level. My point being, TCS and CSA might be faster for some people in some cars at some tracks, but not clear enough to make an overall blanket statement or ban on using them.

It can still help people control their car and avoid accidents without being so competitive. I don’t want the assist completely banned in every sport race, just not worth using for anyone taking it seriously. That way, you cater to both casual and serious racers.

Here's my opinion on this. The use of assists are set up to allow the most people to participate in and enjoy Sport Mode. The best players don't need the assists and will learn to not use them. Is it worth qualifying for one of the big events relying on assists and completely embarrass themselves in public when they can't drive without assists? I would strongly argue that the people at those levels can drive no matter what the rules are.

A "serious" driver should beat a "casual" driver regardless of assists in most situations. I really don't feel that the assists make drivers so much more competitive that they need to be altered to slow them down more. I think it's fairly well balanced. I'm not an alien by any means, so I can either push with assists or drive more conservatively without them. Which is faster for me? It depends on the car and track. That will probably be different for everyone based on their preferences and driving style.

I think it's a fallacy to say a B driver with assists is equal to an A driver without assists (I'm not implying you said that exactly, just an example based on your comment of "...being so competitive.")

Overall, the best will be the best with or without assists. Beyond them, nerfing or banning assists will most likely cause more people to stop playing than it will cause people to start playing. I think that's very significant to PD and the success of the franchise.

 

[City01]

• PD have hired the Top 3 Japaneseplayers to work on BoP.

Actually I am surprised PD need to do this nowadays. If think in a developer mind, the game is “just” the input of steering angle, throttle and brake in the time of racing. PD have the raw data of all tracks, car, tyre model, fuel level, tyre wear level.

They can spin up computers to play the game 7x24 to exhaust all combination of input and self learning. The effect can be like millions of people to work on BoP and these people will not have any mistakes. Accelerate, trail brake, turning in the smoothest way and always just on the tyre limit. (Don’t think it is really rocket science as even AlphaGo can be developed).

The computer might also find some special racing line that might surprise human (like what AlphaGo did).

 

[tofuhero]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I'm guessing that ASM isn't mentioned much because it doesn't have a competitive benefit. From my limited understanding of ASM, it really slows you down. On this point alone, I don't think anyone uses it at the higher levels, so a ban is completely unnecessary.

I'm honestly not quite sure what to make of your CSA and TCS comments. It seems like you are basing what is and isn't acceptable on your personal opinion and skill level. While the Ferrari might be notoriously hard to drive, it seems to cater to your preference to allow TCS, but not CSA, and maybe not taking all cars and players into consideration.

I watched a couple Gr. 2 fastest lap videos of some of the best drivers and saw they weren't using TCS or CSA, so the argument could be made that everyone is overstating how much they help at the higher levels. Maybe they can or did go faster with CSA and it's a matter of pride to not use it, I don't know because I'm nowhere near their level. My point being, TCS and CSA might be faster for some people in some cars at some tracks, but not clear enough to make an overall blanket statement or ban on using them.

Obviously I don't yet have the skill or experience as you and some of the aliens here; I'm just basing it on me being an average driver in B/S. I can still get around the track most of the time without assists, even in a dodgy MR car, because I put in the time. As for ASM, from my experience it will make a sloppy driver still competitive at my level. But it also makes them reckless drivers, and that's a bad thing for others on the track. I don't know if CSA makes people faster, I hate the twitchy feel of it. But it'll make you more consistent on the edge, which on risky tracks is an advantage, all other things being equal.

I think most people in DR B and above are not casual GT players. It takes some work to get to that level. So I think if FIA races won't allow them in the future, it makes sense to get everyone more used to that.

 

[QTheRacer_31]

Ugh... Another thread about assists...

At least, the first post was very informative! Thanks for the info!

 

[Daverbx]

So, no TCS and CSA?
Finally!
Now we will see the Real driver because a lot of guys use them, and isn't fair imho.
I'm very happy that PD remove TCS and CSA on sport mode.
I've never used, so no problem for me... I'm B S

 

[Tou2istTrophy]

Here's my opinion on this. The use of assists are set up to allow the most people to participate in and enjoy Sport Mode.

CSA should help beginners and casuals have cleaner, more enjoyable races. But it does not need to be so competitive. Why can't CSA still cater to beginners and casuals, and cater to serious racers by being 0.5 seconds off ultimate achievable lap pace?

The best players don't need the assists and will learn to not use them.

Yes, they don't "need the assists". But some of the best drivers DO use CSA in the FIA events. Some of the winners have won with CSA! Sure, it doesn't give you an advantage in ultimate achievable pace, but it doesn't give you a disadvantage if you know how to use it, and it can help slightly with their personal pace. It can certainly provide an advantage of the course of race, where I have seen even the best (non-CSA) drivers lose control of their car where CSA may have prevented it, and also suffer from inconsistency which CSA may have helped.

Is it worth qualifying for one of the big events relying on assists and completely embarrass themselves in public when they can't drive without assists?

They can drive without assists. But there are those top drivers who know how to use CSA to their advantage, and nothing is stopping them from getting its benefits. They are not going to embarrass themselves in public. But the point is, they qualified, and someone missed out. Without CSA, they may not have qualified, and someone else may have qualified. Regardless of how small a chance that is, it's still a chance.

I would strongly argue that the people at those levels can drive no matter what the rules are.

Okay?

A "serious" driver should beat a "casual" driver regardless of assists in most situations. I really don't feel that the assists make drivers so much more competitive that they need to be altered to slow them down more. I think it's fairly well balanced. I'm not an alien by any means, so I can either push with assists or drive more conservatively without them. Which is faster for me? It depends on the car and track. That will probably be different for everyone based on their preferences and driving style.

When did I even mention that? Obviously a serious driver will beat a casual driver regardless of assists. I'm talking about serious driver vs. serious driver with CSA. Where there can be an advantage over the course of qualifying and race, not always, but depending on the situation.

When I mentioned casual driver, I meant that CSA can still help them, and cater to them. But, it shouldn't be so competitive for serious drivers using it that they can win FIA championships with (as has been done).

I think it's a fallacy to say a B driver with assists is equal to an A driver without assists (I'm not implying you said that exactly, just an example based on your comment of "...being so competitive.")

Maybe my wording was slightly off, but I meant, it should cater to casuals and beginners, without being "so competitive" ...that you can use it and still win FIA championships.

Overall, the best will be the best with or without assists. Beyond them, nerfing or banning assists will most likely cause more people to stop playing than it will cause people to start playing. I think that's very significant to PD and the success of the franchise.

I'm not asking assists to get banned. Yes I do want CSA nerfed. Why does it have to stop people playing? It's not going to affect casuals and beginners at all. It's going to help them! They won't even notice that they are only able to get a 1:48.000 and not a 1:47.500 on Suzuka Gr.3 LOL! And if they get to the skill level where they do start to notice that it's slowing them down slightly, they will want to improve, so they take it off!

 

[DriftMethod]

Obviously I don't yet have the skill or experience as you and some of the aliens here; I'm just basing it on me being an average driver in B/S. I can still get around the track most of the time without assists, even in a dodgy MR car, because I put in the time. As for ASM, from my experience it will make a sloppy driver still competitive at my level. But it also makes them reckless drivers, and that's a bad thing for others on the track. I don't know if CSA makes people faster, I hate the twitchy feel of it. But it'll make you more consistent on the edge, which on risky tracks is an advantage, all other things being equal.

I think most people in DR B and above are not casual GT players. It takes some work to get to that level. So I think if FIA races won't allow them in the future, it makes sense to get everyone more used to that.

I in no way meant to say that anyone's skill or experience diminishes their input. I'm just a regular guy that only plays GT Sport and I pale in comparison to the aliens around here. My main point is that we should try to look at the big picture through everyone's perspective including PD's.

Ugh... Another thread about assists...

At least, the first post was very informative! Thanks for the info!

My apologies! I'll shut up now and wait to see what PD does with the FIA championship and assists. Just a couple weeks until we get some info!

What will I argue about now? 💡

Actually I am surprised PD need to do this nowadays. If think in a developer mind, the game is “just” the input of steering angle, throttle and brake in the time of racing. PD have the raw data of all tracks, car, tyre model, fuel level, tyre wear level.

They can spin up computers to play the game 7x24 to exhaust all combination of input and self learning. The effect can be like millions of people to work on BoP and these people will not have any mistakes. Accelerate, trail brake, turning in the smoothest way and always just on the tyre limit. (Don’t think it is really rocket science as even AlphaGo can be developed).

The computer might also find some special racing line that might surprise human (like what AlphaGo did).

Pardon my ignorance, but I have no idea what AlphaGo is.

As far as a computer figuring out the BoP? Not a chance in hell. Have you seen the AI in GT Sport? There's currently no software that can beat a real driver. PD doesn't have the computing power to run every permutation of inputs for every Gr. 3/4 car on all the tracks. Seriously, what's the degrees of resolution for steering x acceleration x braking x track position x tire wear level x fuel map x gear selection x weight x power x all cars in class x all tracks x input response increment x all compatible input devices? I'm sure I'm leaving out other variables, but that's just the baseline data. Not even getting into the analysis of finding a single weight and power level for each car that is most fair across all the variables. Instead of spending multiple millions of dollars on the technology, developers, and analysts, why not find a few of the best players to just drive the cars, set the balance and pay them a decent salary?

 

[QTheRacer_31]

No need to shut up. I’ll close my eyes and turn off notifications.

I use assists in cars that have them in real life and I think it’s just fine. I don’t care what everyone else is using so long as they stay clear of my bumper. Anyway, TCS is crap in GTS. It kicks in when it shouldn’t and it’s way too inconsistent. Engineers would get fired for such a crappy TCS implementation.

I haven’t seen you on track for a long time by the way!

 

[City01]

AlphaGo is the computer program that play the board game Go. It win the world number 1 ranked human in dec 2017. Go is considered as the most difficult for computer to win than other chess.

Let’s think in more simple way. In most of the time of the race, we just put full throttle. For every corner, we brake, turn and trail brake, start accelerate, then full throttle. It is actually the matter of perfect execution in perfect time, which computer do much better than human.

 

[DriftMethod]

No need to shut up. I’ll close my eyes and turn off notifications.

I use assists in cars that have them in real life and I think it’s just fine. I don’t care what everyone else is using so long as they stay clear of my bumper. Anyway, TCS is crap in GTS. It kicks in when it shouldn’t and it’s way too inconsistent. Engineers would get fired for such a crappy TCS implementation.

I haven’t seen you on track for a long time by the way!

Q! The driver with many names. Didn't recognize your newest iteration.

I've been very selective of my races and using alternate accounts in other regions.

Obviously I use assists. It's the only way I can make it onto the track with drivers like you. But of course they aren't effective enough for me to keep up.

AlphaGo is the computer program that play the board game Go. It win the world number 1 ranked human in dec 2017. Go is considered as the most difficult for computer to win than other chess.

Let’s think in more simple way. In most of the time of the race, we just put full throttle. For every corner, we brake, turn and trail brake, start accelerate, then full throttle. It is actually the matter of perfect execution in perfect time, which computer do much better than human.

Again, please excuse my ignorance. I did a quick search on Go and found it's played on a 19 x 19 board for a maximum of 361 possible positions for a single move.

Pedals and wheels have over 1000 steps of resolution, so at any point you have over 1,000,000 possible combinations of steering angle and pedal position. That is only 2 of the many variables that I mentioned above.

Comparing the variables in racing (even a racing game/sim like GT Sport) to a fixed 19 x 19 grid is not possible. Driving is by no means simply a process of brake, turn, trail brake, and throttle at the right time. Every singular moment literally has millions of driver input possibilities. Maybe some developers and mathematicians can give their opinion, but I just don't see the comparison at all.

 

[Alpha Cipher]

Been a long time lurker on this thread since mclaren's post was amazing! Didn't have much to say though since everyone else said what I wanted to say
--

Again, please excuse my ignorance. I did a quick search on Go and found it's played on a 19 x 19 board for a maximum of 361 possible positions for a single move.

Pedals and wheels have over 1000 steps of resolution, so at any point you have over 1,000,000 possible combinations of steering angle and pedal position. That is only 2 of the many variables that I mentioned above.

Comparing the variables in racing (even a racing game/sim like GT Sport) to a fixed 19 x 19 grid is not possible. Driving is by no means simply a process of brake, turn, trail brake, and throttle at the right time. Every singular moment literally has millions of driver input possibilities. Maybe some developers and mathematicians can give their opinion, but I just don't see the comparison at all.

There's a similar self-learning AI for DOTA 2 (OpenAI). Right now it can only go 1v1, but I think DOTA 2 is way more complex than GTS, and so I can see self-learning AI being able to play GTS (and probably beat the best people in a 1v1 like in OpenAI), at least in a hotlapping/1v1 situation

What I can't find in this though is how the self-learning AI can help with BoP. OpenAI took months (or years?) to develop and only gets better everytime it plays with itself or another player. While developing a self-learning AI just to develop BoP is already not worth the time and expenses, the fact that a self-learning AI learns everyime it plays mean that the BoP results will be skewed since it'll only go faster and faster everytime it plays. And since self-learning AI doesn't necessarily follow the normal playstyle (OpenAI used bait tactics that was previously considered stupid both in amateur and professional levels of play, but was able to beat a professional DOTA player), their BoP results may only be a reflection of a special racing line that it developed itself and not reflective of how a normal player plays these cars

 

[City01]

Ok I will shut up after this reply. I think this post could make some professional Go players angry, who spend their whole life practice and study strategy.

I agree that race with one other human have infinite variables. Race with 10 other human have infinite x infinite variables.

But for BoP, it is a time trial (race alone) to see the optimal time a car can get. If it is much faster than other car, then BoP adjust it with lower power or heavier.

Excuse me to repeat. In most of the time, we just full throttle. When a corner is in front, it need to start brake at the perfect point, turn and trail brake in the smoothest way, hit the apex at the perfect point, start accerate in the smoothest way. (And use the track limit without having penalty).

I still think it is a matter of perfect execution, which computer will not have any mistake, constantly and always on the perfect time.

EDIT: I keep my word for "shut up after this reply". So I edit this reply instead

After thinking more, I think PD already know the optimal lap time for each BoP value of each car (if they want to know). But this information maybe useless, as human cannot constantly execute it. So they need few aliens to test it for our use.

PD is not an outsider like us. They are the one who determine their own formula (at certain time, this car with this weight, with this speed, if the steering angle is larger than x degree, then the car slide/spin). They know exactly what is the tyre limit as it is determine by them. Their program inside is keep doing this kind of calculation based on our controller input when we play the game. They have no need to do reverse engineering. They can know what is the optimal input of their game at any given time. Then with the optimal input data, they just need to "replay" it in their game.

 

[philipPF]

I think it's probably more expensive to develop this kind of AI test/adjustments tool than to pay some people to do it manually. As Alpha said, it's may be several months of dev and testing (even a testing tool need to be tested and calibrated by humans ). Developping a test AI might be more interesting as a standalone "science" project, or for BoPing 10000 cars... But for 10-20 cars in a video game with a quite short life of 2-3 years, I guess it doesn't worth the work.

As a side note, I'm not really aware on how BoP works, but if I understood well enough by reading this forum :
- BoP is not perfect
- BoP changes occurs frequently with game updates
=> I find this quite realistic and fun, doesn't it mimic the real life situation ? In a race season, all the cars don't have the same behavior, some manufacturers are a bit better for this or that ? And the next season, maybe it changes ?