The reason why cars should be detuneable is...

  • Thread starter Thread starter Darkpitiless
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In real life, any modifications made to engine internals are effectively permanent. Effectively, meaning that to return the stock components would cost nearly as much as swapping in the new ones.

Reminds me of the "port and polish" option in GT4. Yes, it could be undone in real life. Just buy a new cylinder head.

And yes, you could return a stock interior to a car that's been lightened. But that won't return the fifty to one hundred pounds of sound deadening you've chipped off the car.

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Those of us who've ruined... errh... modified cars in real life know this all-too-well... over-modifying your car before reading the rulebook for the race series you plan to enter it into can be financially disastrous. I quite agree with amar212 that this is part of the charm of Gran Turismo. This is virtual car-ownership we're talking about... not an unlimited sandbox. I'm actually glad they included engine overhauls in GT5... as permanently losing power in GT4 on older cars was rather annoying.


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But yes, GT5 should retain GT4's ballast system. Maybe in a future update.

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EDIT: If it were possible to punch a person over the internet, I'd like to deliver a can of whoop-derriere to all the people who complained the PP system out of existence... thanks a lot.
 
You should be able to add ballast and it's position in the car (it was in GT4). Also you can tune an ECU how you want it (so you should be able to reduce power below stock). And PP should be brought back as an option in online mode only.
 
Apart from the 3 engine stages and weight reduction stages you can undo tuning, can't you?

I learned the hard way (i had to buy another stock). Now i just stay away from these upgrades, unless the original car is uninteresting.
 
Totally agree on the ballast system. I was surprised to see it was not here. It was in GT5P still.

I also agree about the PP system for online and I also think there should be leaderboards based on the PP system so we can see how our tuned cars hold up to the best out there.
 
niky
In real life, any modifications made to engine internals are effectively permanent. Effectively, meaning that to return the stock components would cost nearly as much as swapping in the new ones.

Reminds me of the "port and polish" option in GT4. Yes, it could be undone in real life. Just buy a new cylinder head.

And yes, you could return a stock interior to a car that's been lightened. But that won't return the fifty to one hundred pounds of sound deadening you've chipped off the car.

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Those of us who've ruined... errh... modified cars in real life know this all-too-well... over-modifying your car before reading the rulebook for the race series you plan to enter it into can be financially disastrous. I quite agree with amar212 that this is part of the charm of Gran Turismo. This is virtual car-ownership we're talking about... not an unlimited sandbox. I'm actually glad they included engine overhauls in GT5... as permanently losing power in GT4 on older cars was rather annoying.


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But yes, GT5 should retain GT4's ballast system. Maybe in a future update.
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So in my case, i should by new dublicated cars just to have fun at the Nurbergring, Top Gear test track.

Im gonna re-buy F430, M5, M3, Z4M just to compare them with real life times. What a waste of money.

And yeah, can you tell me where can i find stage 2 engine overhaul for my beamer? They just don't exist on google.
 
amar212
Removing "ownership/maintenance" philosophy from GT series would make it "just another driving game".
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Agreed. Back in GT1 I also had TWO copies of each car just because of the [R] Modification, basically a stock car and a fully tuned racing version. Its part of the "car collection" aspect of the game.

That said I do wish your HP didn't change over time or with oil changes and having a ballast system would make online events awesome since you could create equally matching cars so much easier.
 
Darkpitiless
So in my case, i should by new dublicated cars just to have fun at the Nurbergring, Top Gear test track.

Im gonna re-buy F430, M5, M3, Z4M just to compare them with real life times. What a waste of money.

And yeah, can you tell me where can i find stage 2 engine overhaul for my beamer? They just don't exist on google.
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If you read the descriptions stage 1-3 are doing a few different things to your engine and yes these are real life mods that can be done. In game they are referred to as stage 1,2,3 to keep it simple for the kids and non gear heads.
 
Bolt on parts are one thing, they are fairly easy for most people to install and remove from a car, which you can do in game. Some things may require drilling a few new mounting holes or a little welding for a bracket but overall they are within the range of someone knowledgeable, working in their garage with normal hand tools and can be undone by the same.

This is mirrored in game pretty reasonably IMO.

My take on the stage X engine overhauls is that it is where a RL racer would be getting in to serious internal changes and machine shop work. When you move beyond bolt on parts in to engine modifications, things get much more complicated in a big hurry. Changing a cam is not such a big deal, but getting the most out of it, or sometimes even getting the engine to run at all with it, is going to require much more work.

Simply grouping these changes and making them non-reversible seems like a reasonable solution to me, you cannot un-bore a cylinder after all. I know there are people on this forum who would be thrilled to start tinkering with different lift and duration cams, compression, etc... I'm probably one of them, but this is a driving simulator, not a mechanical engineering simulator and the current way it is works fine for me.

Yes, you should be able to add weight to car easily. I used to carry around a bag of concrete in the trunk of my VW to add weight to the front end
 
HBR-Roadhog
If you read the descriptions stage 1-3 are doing a few different things to your engine and yes these are real life mods that can be done. In game they are referred to as stage 1,2,3 to keep it simple for the kids and non gear heads.
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That's my point and you proved it. If they're keeping it simple for kids then it's not realistic as parts should be purchased and installed individualy, not selected randomly.
 
Darkpitiless
That's my point and you proved it. If they're keeping it simple for kids then it's not realistic as parts should be purchased and installed individualy, not selected randomly.
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They are not selected randomly they are in logical groups. I do not see a problem here. Sure it would be more interesting it they allowed us to pick each individual part and even more so if we could tune the ECU or engine timing and the turbo, Would be good to be able to swap engines and take parts from one car to build another but there is nothing wrong with the system that is in place and it is not unrealistic just simplified a bit.
 
atsinged
this is a driving simulator, not a mechanical engineering simulator
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Exactly. The limitations of what can and can't be done don't effect driving so much, so why bother? I'd also like to have much, much more detailed tuning, but having to bother with realistic installation and whatever is not needed.

GT tuning is unnecessarily restrictive anyway. You should be able to take pretty much any car and make it capable of competing in the LMP 1 class.
 
Just bung on soft tires add skid recovery force and bingo.
Extra down force acceleration and Everyones happy.

I like hoe GT gives you consequences for your actions. Until I hit a wall at 100 mph.
 
Exorcet
Opinion.


Opinion....

...I'm not here to keep the game the same. I want to make it better. It might invovle changing things.
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Well now, better in your opinion? If you come and state that an established, well loved tradition should be totally changed around to make it "better" (aka. exactly the way you want it), you can expect some backlash.

You should not have to deal with GT Mode. Let the people who want to have an RPG have it, then make a seperate mode for the racers. There. Everything is fine.

Online is for competitive racing. That is its purpose. It is something you can't find in GT Mode, partially because of hardware limitations, and partial because PD doesn't want to put the effort in. Online should help you find/create competitive racing. Just by taking PP out, that prospect becomes almost laughable. And PD left out more than PP.
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Well, there is a whole community of racers embracing the current lobby set up, right under your nose ;-) I do agree though, there should simply be an online version of arcade mode with complete freedom for people of your inclination.

Darkpitiless
So in my case, i should by new dublicated cars just to have fun at the Nurbergring, Top Gear test track.

Im gonna re-buy F430, M5, M3, Z4M just to compare them with real life times. What a waste of money.
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USE ARCADE MODE.

Gran Turismo was THE game that popularised the car ownership/maintenance career mode. It's "GT mode" has always been the backbone of the game and most of us love it. It's based in reality and so in some situations, things are realistic - like how you can't un-race modify a car or un-bore it's engine. Arcade mode is really perfect for your needs - plug n play racing.
 
Arcade mode hmmm.

Select a Alfa Romeo TZ. You should have one it's a prize car I think.
Go to Daytona speedway any difficulty and see what happens.

Use PD recommended cars and the experience will be better.
I wondered why they never recommended all there cars.
 
Slurm
Well now, better in your opinion? If you come and state that an established, well loved tradition should be totally changed around to make it "better" (aka. exactly the way you want it), you can expect some backlash.
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You're either missing or ignoring the part where everyone gets what they want, so that any backlash is pointless.

Slurm
It's based in reality .
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Sometimes, many times, I wonder.
 
Theres a lot of things that should be doable within tuning.. Turbo boost control, "programmable" ECU, chaning ratios on individual gears etc etc.. Some things that were i GT4 seems lost..
 
atsinged
Bolt on parts are one thing, they are fairly easy for most people to install and remove from a car, which you can do in game. Some things may require drilling a few new mounting holes or a little welding for a bracket but overall they are within the range of someone knowledgeable, working in their garage with normal hand tools and can be undone by the same.

This is mirrored in game pretty reasonably IMO.

My take on the stage X engine overhauls is that it is where a RL racer would be getting in to serious internal changes and machine shop work. When you move beyond bolt on parts in to engine modifications, things get much more complicated in a big hurry. Changing a cam is not such a big deal, but getting the most out of it, or sometimes even getting the engine to run at all with it, is going to require much more work.

Simply grouping these changes and making them non-reversible seems like a reasonable solution to me, you cannot un-bore a cylinder after all. I know there are people on this forum who would be thrilled to start tinkering with different lift and duration cams, compression, etc... I'm probably one of them, but this is a driving simulator, not a mechanical engineering simulator and the current way it is works fine for me.

Yes, you should be able to add weight to car easily. I used to carry around a bag of concrete in the trunk of my VW to add weight to the front end
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This is why Forza's customization system is referred to so often. Rather than having entire 'Stage 1-3' packages, they broke things down a bit so that you could fine-tune things...and remove them if you wanted.

It was easy to buy new valvetrain parts or pistons to pick up a couple hp, or get different cams for a hefty power increase and added revs. It was also just as easy to put the original parts back. The same was true of the stroker kits, intakes, exhausts and cooling systems. They were all parts that could be changed out and returned to stock.

The engine packages in GT5 include some of those things, but don't allow for the precise level of tuning that some of us would like.
 
Exactly. The limitations of what can and can't be done don't effect driving so much, so why bother? I'd also like to have much, much more detailed tuning, but having to bother with realistic installation and whatever is not needed.
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Why not bother? It is just my opinion, but the game needs more realism, not less.

This grouping of permanent changes is not 100 percent accurate but it at least it is solidly grounded in real life. There is a level you can go to, without doing anything irreversible to your engine, both IRL and in GT5. There is also a point of no return where you have to understand that once some things are done, you may have a better car for some situations but one that is virtually useless for others.

The only things I disagree with are the ECU changes being permanent (I think they are and really shouldn't be) and you should be able to mitigate weight reduction.

The engine packages in GT5 include some of those things, but don't allow for the precise level of tuning that some of us would like.
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I'd love to have that as well, I'm unfamiliar with Forza. I know GT5 could do more, I'd like more, but I'm also content with it as is.
 
Instead of moaning about the situation, why aren't people using their brains and adapting to the situation.

Do what I do, if you can't de tune a car, then buy two cars (can't afford it, then grind harder - I do), one car has full weight reduction, another has no weight reduction.

If need be, I'll buy a third and have full N/A tuning on that too.

I have many duplicate cars, I even have three of some and four of others.

Most of my cars don't have irreversable modifications and are not ''maxed out'', what's the point, who knows what online catergories might appear in the future??

What's the point of maxing out cars in a game with over 1000 cars, 70(+) tracks, and three different tyre types, which is only 6 weeks from release and is going to have to last another 5 / 6 / 7 years before the next full version is going to be released..??

Just tune a car with modifications that are reversable or just do stage 1 weight reduction or N /A tuning. If you really feel the need to go full hog on the weight reduction and N / A tuning, it's simple.

JUST BUY ANOTHER, HAVE ONE STANDARD AND ONE MODIFIED.

It's like setups, you can only have one setup, so why go for a perfect setup on one track, when there are such variations in the tracks on the game. Just do a general setup, something whereby your car is better than standard and it handles in a neutral way, it can handle bumps but also doesn't feel like a boat on smooth tracks, it's safe on the brakes and is relatively stable in low, mid and high speed corners.

Ok, you may not be the fastest car on one particular track, but every track you drive you know what your car is going to do.

You will be consistently fast on all tracks, rather than winnnig one race, and driving a pig of a car the next.
 
I dont think you should be able to detune an engine, after Stage mods and such. But you should be able to purchase and keep separate engines for the same car. Then you can tune those to your liking, keep engines at the levels you want. Then just swap out the engines for the events you want.
 
Darkpitiless
That's my point and you proved it. If they're keeping it simple for kids then it's not realistic as parts should be purchased and installed individualy, not selected randomly.
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It's only a name though.

All you have to do is push a button. Any kid could do it.
It's not like you have to grab some tools and install it yourself (which would not be for the kids).
 
Instead of arguing about engine mods that cant be undone how about i don't know.....give the player the option to buy a new engine. I mean this is the ultimate simulation game, why leave out options as such while saying things like this game is a virtual car ownership. The game gets praised for being the Mecca of racing but leaves out so much.
 
atsinged
Why not bother? It is just my opinion, but the game needs more realism, not less.

This grouping of permanent changes is not 100 percent accurate but it at least it is solidly grounded in real life. There is a level you can go to, without doing anything irreversible to your engine, both IRL and in GT5. There is also a point of no return where you have to understand that once some things are done, you may have a better car for some situations but one that is virtually useless for others.
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Driving/racing is what's being simulated. Being able to take out/put in parts doesn't change the racing driving. Having the limits in just makes it harder to get the right car for the race, and that lessens the fun.

I don't really get how reality fits into it when you have 1000 car garage anyway. It's not a second life simulator (thankfully).



Highlandor
Instead of moaning about the situation, why aren't people using their brains and adapting to the situation
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You should read the thread. Duplicates have already been mentioned 50 times. But it's still a nusance and waste of credits/time earning credits. You should also not settle for barely passable when good or exceptional is in reach.
 
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I just can't understand the train of thought of some of you. What is exactly wrong in the fact that you can tune and detune your cars in this GAME?

I have made a list of pros and cons of a possible detuning option, or even better, a way to save different modifications and tuning profiles:

Cons:
- Gives you the feel of beeing unrealistic.

Pros:
- Allows you to participate in future Time trials and Seasonal Events.
- Allows you to drive stock cars again once you have beaten the hell out of the a and b-specs (which you are FORCED to do since you cannot win untuned)
- Allows you to test different configs of the same car on different circuits.
- Allows you to have different configs and limitations for online races.
- As you don't need to spend 3x time the money on 3 copys of the same car, just to get the 3 configs you need, you could be spending the money on some other car.

So much lost for being "realistic"!!!

PD: Why don't everyone of you moan about the fact that adding a turbo, compressor, differential, new gearbox etc. does not modify the weight and balance of the car? That would be realistic!!

THIS GAME IS NOT. :)
 
Some things cant be undone, that's perfectly fine. If you're fool enough to install a wing and painted rims in a Ferrari you deserve to pay for another :yuck:
 
Exorcet
PD treats online like a sideshow, it's a bit ridiculous.

It should be like this:

No permanent tunes, everything should be removable.

Ability to detune cars. (Weight, power, aero, etc)

No maintenance/fluctuating horsepower, it's just a nuisance.

All tuning parts should be available online, even if you didn't buy them. At the very least, tires need to be this way,

PERFORMANCE POINTS

Car class rules (Super GT, ALMS GT1, etc)

Aero/suspension, drivetrain, etc rules [wings allowed, no wings, etc]

All cars unlocked

If PD won't do the above for whatever reason, then garage sharing. When I tried to use the option to limit car choice to those from the garage, I thought it would make it so that people would only be able to use car I select from my garage, but it was from the recommended list, which makes it useless. Besides limiting the cars to what I have in my garage, I should also let people be able to drive my cars even if they don't have them.

I'm sure there is more to list.
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Class rules yes, and tires yes. Frankly I like working for my mods on online cars, means I know my cars and kinda unique.
 
prymet1me
Instead of arguing about engine mods that cant be undone how about i don't know.....give the player the option to buy a new engine. I mean this is the ultimate simulation game, why leave out options as such while saying things like this game is a virtual car ownership. The game gets praised for being the Mecca of racing but leaves out so much.
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Truth. I agree completely.
 
OK, FM3 has a pretty much perfect tune-up model which includes engine transplants (I would have loved to see the option of fitting a smaller engine from a range to some cars so that they could compete in lower classes, but that is just me...). Everything is removable and you can make multiple saves with a stock setup or any class setups you like.

The non-removable parts and weight loss are a pain in GT5 (or GT in general). WIth the advent of the engine rebuild and chassis rebuild in GT5 why not just have an option to do this rebuild to stock specification or to remain in tuned form. OK it is expensive, but you can tune up your prized motor and use it to its best advantage and after its tuned life is finished you can restore it to stock (and still have removable upgrades if a light/medium tune-up is required).

I have some cars which I did non-removable upgrades to and have subsequently bought (or in the case of the Gallardo won) a replacement. Since then I have been only using removable upgrades on my cars.
 
Darkpitiless
So in my case, i should by new dublicated cars just to have fun at the Nurbergring, Top Gear test track.

Im gonna re-buy F430, M5, M3, Z4M just to compare them with real life times. What a waste of money.
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In GT3, I had a number of Lotus Esprits in several states of tune, as well as a bunch of other cars. In GT4, I had three M5s, two M3s, three Lotus Carltons and ten Proteges. With how ridiculously easy it is to make money in GT, I already have a number of duplicates in my GT5 garage... (bought, not glitched), and I've only been playing for two days.

Darkpitiless
And yeah, can you tell me where can i find stage 2 engine overhaul for my beamer? They just don't exist on google.
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It's not an "overhaul". It's a "Stage 2" engine modification.

Many tuners will refer to "Stage 1, Stage 2 and Stage 3" modifications. They'll mean different things to different tuners, but they make it easy for them to sell the packages. And for naturally aspirated engine builds, they're just as good as irreversible. In other words, returning your engine to stock configuration would be nearly as expensive as the original modification.

Turbos, on the other hand... you can install and remove quite easily. Of course... in real life, a "Stage 3" turbo build with forged low compression pistons and a built block would be just as difficult to return to stock configuration as a "Stage 2" or "Stage 3" naturally aspirated build.

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It's limiting, but it's part of the game. Again, not particularly bothered. Since the introduction of irreversible race modifications in GT2, I've made it a habit to have two of everything and three of some others.

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As for engine swaps... I think we've discussed this elsewhere. It would be nice, but really.. with the amount of money GT5 throws at you, you can do just about any engine swap at all. Which would sort of ruin the game.
 
I just wish you would unlock more cars in arcade mode after winning/purchasing them, just like GT4. However, with the addition of being able to use your own cars as well. Therefore you could race any car stock with any set of tires, as long as you have that car.
 
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