The "rules" for setting brake balance?

Discussion in 'GT6 Tuning' started by SillyBillyP, Jan 2, 2014.

  1. SillyBillyP

    SillyBillyP

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    I'm not that knowledgeable with regards tuning (prefer driving stock, anyway), but I often alter brake balance.

    My "rule" is pretty simple (too simple, I suspect): on all cars I use Front 5 / Rear 3; and if the car's got a racing brake kit, I use 3/1 as that seems to leave a bit of travel in the brake pedal before lock up.

    I use ABS=0.

    I'd be very grateful for other users' views on this as I think I may be oversimplifying - I make no changes relevant to whether cars are MR, FR etc. And I ignore front/rear weight distribution.
     
  2. bodger

    bodger

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    Whilst your principle was a sound one on GT5, I am finding for RR and MR cars that brake balance biased to the rear works better in GT6...
     
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  3. SillyBillyP

    SillyBillyP

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    So you might set brakes to, say, 3/6 in RR and MR cars in GT6? Well, if that works, I don't understand anything about brakes 'cos I would have thought that would have made those cars oversteer even more.

    I'll give it a go though.
     
  4. NLxAROSA

    NLxAROSA Premium

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    There's a thread about reversed tuning settings (which was a problem in GT5 until they fixed it, and appears to be back in GT6), so I guess it's just trial and error for now. Easily tested though.
     
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  5. jlmcmillan1978

    jlmcmillan1978

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    If setting rears stronger than fronts works in GT6 then PD has screwed up big time, might test this out myself, but there's no way it should work that way.

    Fronts should be set about twice as strong as rears, and with ABS off settings much stronger than 5 on the front just seem to cause brakes to lock too easily, but that's on road cars with CS or SH tires, grippier tires will allow stronger settings & weaker tires need weaker settings. Stronger bias to the rear will tend to create oversteer or worse locked rears, & bias to the front vice versa, so that can be considered if you are tuning to suit a certain car type and its drivetrain layout or weight bias.

    Also, and this is just my early impression, it's way easier to brake with ABS off in GT6 than it was in GT5, meaning you can get away with more aggressive settings or driving styles than you used to be able to. Not sure that I like this, I enjoyed the challenge of no ABS braking in GT5.

    Remember that a locked brake occurs when the braking force outweighs the grip available for the tire. Hence slippery roads contribute, worn or not so grippy tires contribute, overall speed contributes, how hard you like to mash the brake button/pedal contributes, stiff suspension settings (weight transfer) contributes, they are all factors to be considered.
     
    Last edited: Jan 2, 2014
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  6. SillyBillyP

    SillyBillyP

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    Yeah, I agree, no-abs braking is much easier in GT6. However, I do find that once you've got a racing brake kit on, no-abs braking is just as hard as it was in GT5 (brakes lock way too quickly). I get the impression that, with a racing brake kit, the way to go is 3/1 (although I haven't really used anything more grippy than SM tyres).
     
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  7. CJSpencer77

    CJSpencer77

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    With the racing brake, on most cars you can still lock the fronts on 0-10 , needs fixing
     
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  8. jlmcmillan1978

    jlmcmillan1978

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    Is there a 0 setting? I thought the lowest you could go was 1. If there is a 0 setting you could have some giggles 'switching off' your front or rear brakes! :)
     
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  9. CJSpencer77

    CJSpencer77

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    0 setting still brakes, just not very heavily
     
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  10. Grayfox

    Grayfox

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    There is a "0" but it doesn't switch off brakes.
    Just sets the bias to the lowest possible value.
     
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  11. CJSpencer77

    CJSpencer77

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    Im also finding the same thing for a lot of the cars, i only run ABS 0 and low grip and one thing myself and all the guys i race with noticed was that the brakes on 1.01 were fantastic, it was only when they patched the game to 1.02 that all these issues flared up.
     
  12. Griffith500

    Griffith500

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    The default 5,5 appears to be "stock" brake balance. So if the car has a 70% forward bias stock, setting the in-game "bias" to 5,3 reduces overall power by 20% and shifts the bias forward to 79.5%.

    The "formula", should you happen to know the stock bias (and it's correct in the game), is:

    B*F/5 / (B*F/5 + B'*R/5)

    Where B is forward bias, B' it's complement (rearward bias), F and R are the bias settings in game.

    For 70% stock bias, 5,3 setting: 70*(5/5) / (70*(5/5) + (100-70)*(3/5)) = 0.795..., i.e. ~79.5%
    For 70% stock bias, 5,7 setting: 70*(5/5) / (70*(5/5) + (100-70)*(7/5)) = 0.625, i.e. 62.5%
    For 62% stock bias, 4,2 setting: 62*(4/5) / (62*(4/5) + (100-62)*(2/5)) = 0.765..., i.e. 76.5%

    So depending on whether you want a more or less forward bias than stock, sometimes you need to set the rears "stronger" than the fronts.

    The bias setting does nothing outside of a race, although I'm not even sure it works online at all, so although trial and error is still king, there's not much provision for it in the game, whereas it always worked in GT5.
    Is this another thing where PD think they're "balancing" online by removing the ability to adjust the bias? Seems to me if people are disabling ABS, they're going to expect that bias settings will be tuned to personal taste, and accept that they may be slower than others as a result.

    Really, the existing adjustment needs to be replaced with a proper, transparent bias and overall force adjustment instead of this silly use of low-integer rational numbers nonsense. Then allow that adjustment everywhere in the game.
     
  13. amar212

    amar212 Premium

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    ABS OFF (0) should be no problem in GT6 - it would be pretty much the same as in GT5 (with new physics, their properties, etc., of course) - if the "Racing Brake Pads" were not included.

    In my opinion, the "Racing Brake Pads" are the MAIN PROBLEM with the ABS OFF driving in GT6 and it seriously influences behavior of the car and brake-balance setting, especially for the drivers that are driving with the wheel/pedals.

    What it seems to me - and I tried more than few cars - is that Racing Brakes are some very simple multiplier of the something I will simply call *brake force*.

    For instance, where "normal" brakes have *braking force* of "3", racing pads provide *braking force* of "9".

    And there comes a problem, because such multiplied *force* is directly influencing behavior of braking in terms it makes it 3X more sensitive. Where I need to apply a 50% of pedal force on normal pads, I need to apply only 15% - AKA just touch the brakes with tiptoes - with Racing Pads. And like that there is no threshold, almost no travel, nothing.

    So, it has nothing to do with *brake balance* because the brake balance setting is just fine and works with the same logic as in GT5 and it works fine (I agree with your formula above Griffith, but I would simply stick to the more basic "calculation" where a value of 1 is always used for rear bias, and front bias is altered with vehicle-weight in mind) - as long as Racing Brake Pads are not fitted on the car.

    For example, I am aware of the thread about "problematic" MR cars, and in my opinion, the only true problem are the Racing Pads on those cars. Although that thread nominated Cizeta V16 and F40 as *problematic*, they are not problematic at all, I can drive any of them on either Comfort or Sports tires and without ABS (and proper brake-balance settings) and they are acting perfectly. However, once the MR/RR cars with Racing Pads comes to picture (from Huayra to infamous Audi R8LM, to Renault Gordini for instance) everything falls apart because actual *braking force* is too strong because of the Racing Pads and no brake-balance settings can fix it.

    Because the actual mass-center of the FR/FF vehicles with Racing Pads is not sensitive as on MR/RR cars, similar difference in behavior is not so exaggerated, but the same problem persists - because actual *braking power* is way too strong - which can be observed by watching the redline on the revmeter that represents braking when driving.

    In my personal opinion it is the Racing Brake Pads and way that they work that is greatest current problem of GT6 and they are practically making more than 50% of cars unusable for those that opt to drive without ABS.

    Polyphony should drastically change the way Racing Brakes (brake pads) are implemented and instead of multiplying actual *braking power* though current pedal-travel, they should somehow change it in a way to make it more effective in stopping the car by allowing the same amount of travel (braking force) when braking but with better threshold or actual efficiency - but again, not with simple multiplying the *braking power* which creates serious problems for all ABS OFF drivers - and especially those that drive with wheel and pedals - but with making them more *efficent* though grip-levels of mechanical-elements simulation (suspension or similar).

    Until then, ABS OFF braking will be seriously problematic for ALL CARS WITH RACING BRAKE PADS and no brake-balance setting will be able to fix it.

    At the same time, ABS OFF in GT6 remains a much better experience than in GT5 for all cars without Racing Brake Pads, because it seems that new physics and suspension model takes into concern actual mechanical properties of the braking-potential of a particular car (thus making ABS OFF driving more right) and it provides much more liviable and believable sensation.

    **NOTE: - In my assessment, the *ABS* in GT series is not representative/simulation of the real-life ABS, it just uses that "name". ABS in GT is some kind of permanent braking assist *override* that not only prevents wheel-lock on the buffer-bases (dot doing what real ABS doing in the RL), but also have some invisible traction-control that nullify the suspension-modelling and equalizes unique characteristics of the vehicles resulting with the ability to turn while braking and never lose grip. It is an imposed as simple game-assist with adjustable level of assistance (1-10), it is not "simulation" of the RL ABS effect at all.

    **NOTE #2: I am driving with Fanatec wheel and Fanatec CSPV2 pedals with load-cell and oil-damper - and still going through hell because of the Racing Brake Pads. I can't even imagine the horrors of braking with pedals that have no load-cell and especially the plastic pedals such as on DFP/DFGT wheels where sensitivity is probably 5X greater than on my set. Polyphony needs to fix this ASAP, it is the greatest current issue of GT6.
     
    Last edited: Jan 2, 2014
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  14. stb155

    stb155

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    It does work online, there is a difference between using 1 and 5 at the front.

    Just dont think of it as "absolute values" where 10=200%of stock brake power and 0=0% and 1=25% and so on.
    It is more like 0=80% and 10=120% i would guess.

    And if you think of it that makes sense, because why would you want 25% in reality and how would you do that ?
    There are only a few things you can change (discs, pads) that have influence on stopping power.

    Imagine the numbers are different brake pads, 10 beeing very sporty ones with high friction and 0 cheap/casual ones and they have only a certain influence on the braking power.
     
    Last edited: Jan 2, 2014
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  15. stb155

    stb155

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    Yes the whole "race brake" thing seems to be a bit of a fu..up in GT6

    In reality race brakes dont brake better because they have factor X "more power" and "grip" the disc harder, on every sporty car the stock brakes are powerful enough to lock the wheels at any speed anyway.

    The difference is how they handle the power(temperature) that is generated while braking.
    But since GT does not simulate that race brakes would not make any difference.
    So to create a feelable difference they made race brakes "bite" twice (or whatever factor) as hard as stock breakes.

    Sucks but i don't see it as a huge problem, i just don't use them.
    Since GT does not simulate brake temp. and fading brake distance seems only be limited by tires/suspension/brake balance, so no need for race brakes anyway.
     
  16. amar212

    amar212 Premium

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    I also do not "use" them in terms of fitting them on the cars that does not have them.

    But ALL racecars have them by default and you can't change them to "normal pads", as well as some non-race cars have them, like Huyara, FXX, etc.
     
  17. GTP_Jonjig

    GTP_Jonjig

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    my way is simpler than yours to set brake balance .. I also use no aids (including 0 abs) , comfort softs and run cars around 500 to 550pp, to set the balance up I drive in a straight line and brake in a straight line and see which wheels go red first then turn the offending end down till all wheels lock together.. simple.. usually end up with a setting where the backs are higher than the fronts.. I'm in the top 1000 on all the seasonal tt's (3 of which in top 500) so I'm confident my way works well.. for me anyway..
     
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  18. GordonS

    GordonS

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    Am I wrong saying racing brakes are useless with normalish tyres in GT6?
    Estimating, Racing Hards and better ones only benefit using racing brakes (maybe Sport Softs too).
    Because, I can't find much, actually at all, difference in stopping distances comparing normal tyres with racing brakes.
    Secondly, for example GT-R "Black" with Racing Hards doesn't seem to gain much help from Racing Brakes, with these GT6 parameters. Obviously the car has excellent brakes by default.
     
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  19. Firedragon

    Firedragon

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    Agreed with stb155 that the formula provided by Griffith500 is wrong, as it is assumed that the brake balance settings (ranging from 0-10) are absolute values of braking torque (not 'braking force', as this is a notion that counteracts a rotation and not linear movement). The formula seemed more correct in GT5, but now it isn't anymore.

    The ultimate proof is this: Pick a trivial car...like a BMW M3 Coupé and set the brake balance as 0 at the front and 10 at the back. Brake hard and the front brakes still lock up first.

    Also, set BB at 10 and 10...it would be undrivable in GT5, but in GT6 it is actually manageable...another notion that will agree to the fact that the BB settings are not absolute numbers anymore. BB at 10 does not mean it's 2.5 times stronger than BB at 4...the actual multiplying factors are way less and more like 1.2-1.5 max. if I were to have a guess.

    Although I have one remark: BB at 10 is just the maximum brake torque of the system, while every value lower than this is a linear portion of this, I guess. I think it is something like: BB at 0-10 = actual braking torque going from 80%-100% (so BB at 5 = 90% of the maximum brake torque), but I can't really prove that as easily that these are the actual percentages. On the other hand, it is certain that the lowest brake balance setting is still capable of stopping the car well enough, so it can never be as low as 0% for the reason that stb155 mentions: how are you going to make the brakes _that_ bad?

    The reason that the standard setting is at 5:5 is simple: like in real life, brakes are always a bit overdimensioned a tad, just like any other engineering device.
    I wonder what you mean by the underlined part. You do know that 'braking efficiency' is determined by the longitudinal grip that a tyre can offer, which is exactly the braking torque that can be applied to the tyres before those lock up? How are you 'more effectively stopping a car' without increasing the braking torque then when using the same tyres? Most of the time that is impossible.

    The only cases would be if the braking torque was already higher than the available tyre grip....but then the stopping distance could only be decreased by changing to grippier tyres.

    Yes, this is a direct result of the brake balance-setting values representing a brake torque that is not absolute anymore like it was in GT5.

    This is not entirely true, as racing brakes do generate a higher 'brake torque' due to the friction coefficient between special pad materials and brake disc materials are higher. This is simply because a race car has more grippy tyres (both longitudinal and lateral) and in most cases aerodynamic downforce, both of which allow for more brake torque to be effectively used before the wheels lock up and thus slowing the car down quicker. Effectively, this shortens the brake distance.

    If the racing brakes (meaning the whole package in GT6, I guess: discs, pads, fluids with a higher boiling temperature, reinforced braking lines, etc.) are not there to create more 'stopping power' (i.e. the correct term is 'brake torque'), then they are indeed for brake fading. It's that GT6 will indeed include the whole package all at once, leading to a significantly increased brake torque even if that is not what is desired.

    Now using racing brakes (including racing-grade pad and disc material, that is!) on road cars is useless, both in real life and in the game, so I'm glad that they've implemented it this way. The reason is that the higher fade-resistance comes almost entirely from the materials used (and not in brake geometry, as the discs are almost the same in terms of size and cooling ducts in the discs). With these materials, more braking torque is generated, simply because these are engineered to do exactly that.

    It's all in the name: racing brakes are exactly made to be used with racing cars only, not street cars which have way less longitudinal grip and therefore cannot effectively use all the extra braking torque to shorten the brake distance. As a result, the BB of racing brakes has to be set pretty low (like 3/1 or so), but from the theory above, that still equates to maybe 80% of the maximum braking torque....still too high for a normal road car to handle.

    This is exactly what I was thinking too! Racing brakes are only effective (ever so slightly) in decreasing braking distance with really grippy tyres, i.e. racing tyres, because then the generated braking torque of the standard brakes is never enough to fully use the tyre grip to decelerate the car. It is only with the increased braking torque of the racing brakes that the tyres are used to their full potential.

    About the GT-R: I think that's a good conclusion.

    All in all, racing brakes would only help if the car has enough aerodynamic downforce and tyre grip to allow a higher brake torque to be applied. In the real world, even the standard brakes have sufficient brake torque to lock up tyres at quite a high speed, so there is little difference in using racing brakes. Only at very high speeds (up until the point of lock-up when 100% braking is applied), racing brakes are a tad more effective than standard brakes, but that effect is very small anyway due to the fact that slowing down from higher speeds is easier (200-100 km/h takes a lot less time than 100-0 km/h).
     
    Last edited: Jan 2, 2014
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  20. Griffith500

    Griffith500

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    Which would imply 5,5 is stock setting, and that most cars have an excessively forward bias for track driving, which is reasonable.

    They just need to get rid of that system altogether and put the real numbers there, they obviously have them for most of the cars now, since they mostly have a sensible stock brake bias setting now!


    @Firedragon, @stb155 I did indeed forget that the scales aren't zero'd at zero. But that only serves to better illustrate my point, because to adapt the "formula" we'd need to know the minimum "force" for each car and account for that (e.g. as B*(F/5 + C) or similar).

    The absolute simplest, most elegant and most useful solution is to expose that force and the actual bias number for us to change, rather than all this daft guesswork and inconsistency from car to car.
     
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  21. Firedragon

    Firedragon

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    That might give a tad more insight in determining the actual ratio of torque distribution between front and rear braking, but would it really help us if we could see how many Nm (or lb-ft) of braking went to the front and how many Nm to the back? I would think not so much, because the correct factor fully depends on the dynamic mass distribution of the car (and not the static!). It is almost impossible to calculate this by hand as it involves having to know the exact weight distribution as a function of the car's length, as the way too simplified front:back set of two numbers is then useless.

    All we are then left with is even more numbers that are there, but are not helping that much to know how to set up the brakes...because how do I know if 550 Nm of braking torque is better than 700 Nm (ficticious numbers) by only seeing the numbers?

    In the end, we're still left with having to actually test driving the cars in order to know if the brakes are set up properly, I reckon. We now have to do that with the way BB values are shown and by displaying the real brake torque numbers, that won't change.

    And while I'm thinking about it...I wonder how this is done in real life. Would car manufacturers calculate what distribution of the braking torque to the front and back would be the best (and eh, they actually can't, because every situation is slightly different in terms of dynamic mass distrubution)? Orwould they just do that empirically and based on many guidelines that have been set over the hundred years that cars exist now? I think it's the latter, as it's more common sense, also keeping in mind that the brake balance in real life is never optimal except for in one situation. The rest of the time it's just 'good enough', i.e. sufficient.
     
    Last edited: Jan 2, 2014
  22. stb155

    stb155

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    I meant it like you explained very nicely, "race brakes" are pretty much useless on a road car with road tires IF you don't consider that they handle high temperatures much better, fade later or not at all and last longer.
    And GT does not simulate that.


    You see that sometimes in car shows, there is not much difference between most casual street cars or "sporty" street cars if you do ONE brake test from 60-0 with cold brakes. Do the exercise 10times (ore once/twice from 155-0) and you will see huge differences between good and bad brakes. (Because then stuff gets hot and separates the men from the boys)
     
  23. danielc

    danielc

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    I have some real life experience with several cars in game, brake kits and tires, i tracked my car several ocasions this year and made many upgrades to my it, for the topic lets talk just brakes.
    The racing brake should have options like in real life, there are so many pads in the market that do the same job diferently. For simplification they should offer 3 kinds of "bite" for pads; progressive, regressive and stable. Oem pads usually are regressive, they offer as much bite from the start and loose friction over time and temperature. If they offered this option, no abs guys can use a progressive pads for lower chance of lockup and more finesse/control.
     
  24. stb155

    stb155

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    IRL the distribution is done by a "subsystem" of the ABS called EBD (Electronic Brake Distribution AFAIR), this tries to put as much brake force to the back as possible without making it "overbraking" which could cause loss of stability.
    Makes quite a difference in a heavy loaded Van where you can put quite a lot of rear braking on.
    (saw that in a car show where they did trials with that system active and deactivated, impressive)

    And sure there is also a lot of calculating going on when they construct a new car.
    Just look at different cars.
    Short, highish cars (FF hot hatches) end up with comparable small rear brakes because they have not much weight at the rear in the first place and under braking it becomes a lot less.

    Saloons, station wagons, vans and so on which are longer and can have a lot of weight in the back get big ventilated discs at the rear.
     
  25. HBR-Roadhog

    HBR-Roadhog

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    It depends of the car, I leave it at 5:5 on many of them and use 6:4 on others. I have tested with settings 0-10 and have not noticed a difference in fact I am not sure they are working at all. I even tried 0:10 and the front wheel still locked before the rear ones. 0:0 and 10:10 both had the same stopping distance and both locked the wheels with ABS 0 if I pressed the pedal a bit to far. I could tell no difference in the amount of braking needed to lock up either
     
  26. danielc

    danielc

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    Oem brakes are meant for noise confort and speeds up to 120km/h (in most cases) german cars have better brakes due to autobahn driving.
    not true at all about racing brakes on real life cars, i shortened 70meters my breaking point from stock to big brake kit + f1 spec brembo fluid, and pagid yellows (multiple le mans winner) on the same set of michelin ps3 street tires.... Coming from 200km/h to 90. Also i gained in control 1vs 4 pot caliper and lost all that noise confort oem brakes go for because of the metalic content on the pads
    Some reading material
    http://www.caranddriver.com/features/shedding-light-on-fading-brakes
    http://www.caranddriver.com/features/the-power-to-stop
    http://www.autoevolution.com/news/golf-7-gti-stoptech-one-piece-big-brake-kit-test-video-69763.html
     
  27. SillyBillyP

    SillyBillyP

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    I think I've noticed some difference with racing brakes: I was in the (i think) Weider HSV-010 which has a racing brake kit by default. I set it to 5/3 to start with and found it locked up way too easily, so I changed the brake balance for 3/1 - it was fine then, more or less.
     
  28. stb155

    stb155

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    No one said that there is no advantage in real life.

    But GT does not simulate the high power and temperature that a 200-90kmh braking causes and which might be to much for bad stock brakes.

    (Difference of 70m on COLD brakes ? Seems a lot, stock brakes must have been s...)

    Again, this is in real life.

    GT does not simulate hot fluid and to hot pads, in GT the stock brakes work perfect forever no matter how you drive.


    But GT simulates deteriorating body rigidity because that is so important in reality :ouch:

    BTW:
    That is a bit of a myth of past days, good/powerful/expensive cars have good brakes, cheaper/weaker ones not so much.

    I had the "pleasure" of a 200-0 braking on "The Autobahn" last year in a German built 160hp/1500kg/40000€ car.
    Brake discs ready for the bin after that...
     
    Last edited: Jan 2, 2014
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  29. CTznOfTime

    CTznOfTime

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    Hello Amar,

    So based on what you are saying, if GT/PD is using the same logic/algorithm/calculation to determine braking (and abs), does it mean that depending on the hardware input device we use, (DS3, DFGT, Fanatec etc...)
    we would have different effectiveness in the breaking...

    If so, then which device do you think is best to be used with the braking calculation?
    Which device did PD primarily intended this calculation to be used with ?

    Do you think PD should have different algorithm depending on which device we use ?
    aka: when i use the DS3, i use the X and square buttons for go and Brake, unlike others who uses L2 and R2...


     
  30. stb155

    stb155

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    That would it make really hard, even with L2 or right stick braking its not much fun and very hard to drive with ABS0 compared to wheel&pedals.

    I also use the same method as "jonjig", try to use as much rear brake as possible without risking them to lock before the front does.

    I end up with very different settings for wheel and DS3.
    Wheel something like 5/7, 7/5 or 5/5 depending on car, DS3 more like 1/3, 2/2 or 0/5.

    You often hear people suggesting way more bias to the front (7/3 or so), that is a mistake i think because it overloads the front tires while the rear ones do nothing and you end up with longer brake distance.

    (It can be right on some cars that get very light at the rear)

    Also the assumption that to much rear braking always causes snap oversteer is wrong, to less can have exact the same effect.
    Every motorcyclist knows that using the rear brake (carefully) stabilizes the thing and also helps you when driving slow around corners.
     
    Last edited: Jan 2, 2014
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