The Sound Update Thread (The Return)

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>Mike found that it was easier to take a modified recording and "dumb it down" than to "amp up" a stock recording; Forza stopped using stock recordings!!

Your little addendum at the end of this quote is a bit misconstrued - for low level (and especially turbocharged) cars (think like Fiesta ST) the sound you're going to get out of a dyno is just going to be some airy wind with no tone or excitement. In those cases, using a modified car will sound more "correct" and more importantly more "enjoyable" to the majority of people. However in the case of truly unique or already-aggressive cars (like ferrari F12 or like racecars) then the stock sound is already rich and exciting enough that it needs no modifications to convey the excitement.

Another thing that needs to be considered when discussing car sound reproduction is the volume disparity between a real car and your TV listening level. The 787b at 5' behind the exhaust (ie 3rd person camera position) is pushing 112 decibels. Your TV listening level if you're playing loud is probably around 75-80 decibels. Keeping in mind that dB is a logarithmic scale where for every increase of 6dB you've doubled the energy, the real car is something like 36-37 times more energetic than what you're going to be listening to. As a result a lot of racing game designers will introduce some audio effects to try to sell that excitement you're not getting from the quieter volume level - Turn 10 has experimented with real-time distortion for example - to make it feel more like the real experience of the car. Using a more aggressive version of a car can have the same effect. PD is obviously also experimenting with harmonic distortion as demonstrated by the Nissan GTR-LM video above.

When you're driving around in a racing game you shouldn't be asking "is this a recording of this exact actual car" but rather "does this experience feel like i'm driving this car" - because for most medium- to low-level cars those answers will be quite different.
 
Turn 10 has experimented with real-time distortion for example - to make it feel more like the real experience of the car.
Well, but that's not what happened, at least in Forza 4. I've driven several of the cars in F4, and the cars in the game all sound modified. My real life Supra MkIII whirrs and whines kind of like a schoolbus. In Forza? It came "equipped" with a Borla semi-racing exhaust. Is it more exciting? For most, but it irritated me to the point that I refused for weeks to upgrade the exhaust system of anything. I like accurate sound, not Hollywood sound.

Now I know I'm the odd guy out on this issue, but those blaring "camera focus" street cars roaring over the pack half a mile away... I don't like it. Maybe F5 is "right" in the way cars are made more exciting, and F6 will have a tweak or two in that regard. I hope so, or I'll have the same reaction if I ever decide to give Forza another shot.
 
>Mike found that it was easier to take a modified recording and "dumb it down" than to "amp up" a stock recording; Forza stopped using stock recordings!!

Your little addendum at the end of this quote is a bit misconstrued
My "addenda" are in italics, everything else is paraphrased except where quotation marks are used, as best as I can remember.

If you're referring to the exclamation marks, it was long rumoured to be the case and this was the proof to settle it.

I also consider it further evidence of what I call the content problem, not being able to produce enough content to cover every eventuality, and this was also the implication Mike made when talking about representing tuning changes.

for low level (and especially turbocharged) cars (think like Fiesta ST) the sound you're going to get out of a dyno is just going to be some airy wind with no tone or excitement. In those cases, using a modified car will sound more "correct" and more importantly more "enjoyable" to the majority of people. However in the case of truly unique or already-aggressive cars (like ferrari F12 or like racecars) then the stock sound is already rich and exciting enough that it needs no modifications to convey the excitement.
In my experience, the disparity is due to missing sources and unnaturally rigid recordings, particularly the staticness of the coloration.

Missing sources in most games include the structure-borne sound of the car, aeroacoustic noise (both in terms of gas flow in and out of the car, as well as around it), and even the sound of your own body (with the baffles out of my motorbike, the base of my skull becomes a transducer and ear plugs are useless).

In GT, you can add intake to that list as well.

PGR4 sounded just fine with stock recordings, even with the more mundane turbocharged cars. That's the dedicated interior recordings (missing sources thus represented) doing their job.
Another thing that needs to be considered when discussing car sound reproduction is the volume disparity between a real car and your TV listening level. The 787b at 5' behind the exhaust (ie 3rd person camera position) is pushing 112 decibels. Your TV listening level if you're playing loud is probably around 75-80 decibels. Keeping in mind that dB is a logarithmic scale where for every increase of 6dB you've doubled the energy, the real car is something like 36-37 times more energetic than what you're going to be listening to. As a result a lot of racing game designers will introduce some audio effects to try to sell that excitement you're not getting from the quieter volume level - Turn 10 has experimented with real-time distortion for example - to make it feel more like the real experience of the car. Using a more aggressive version of a car can have the same effect. PD is obviously also experimenting with harmonic distortion as demonstrated by the Nissan GTR-LM video above.
This should already be covered with HDR mixing, which PD have implemented, and is also common in middleware. In fact, it's caused a few issues in the recent past with certain effects drowning out others in low dynamic range listening environments. So a more "designed" mix is needed for the low range case, and everyone then still gets the option of a more open mix instead of being limited by the assets. The large theatre mode in PS3 GT games is really something to behold, just in terms of its dynamic power and the affect that has on the sense of space.

The GTRLM, like the other AES cars, has a currently overdriven (inharmonic) distortion effect based on a structural model of "rasp". That overdriving is most likely to compensate for missing sources, as above. The model should sound a little nicer when toned down, once the full model is rolled out.

When you're driving around in a racing game you shouldn't be asking "is this a recording of this exact actual car" but rather "does this experience feel like i'm driving this car" - because for most medium- to low-level cars those answers will be quite different.
Indeed, this is why I've fallen out of love with samples and prefer the interactivity of synthetic models, despite the usual drop in "photorealism".

The beauty of such models is that missing sources that are hard to record in a manner conducive to reproduction in an interactive medium can be generated based on the interaction directly. Take the exhaust flow noise PD has been generating since GT5P, which is coloured according to the situation in game. It wouldn't work so well with a recording, certainly not with the resources befitting a mere garnish.
 
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Hmm... Johnnypenso likes a GT6 car sound? Maybe the sounds in GT7 will be remotely acceptable to most people. :D
 
Hmm... Johnnypenso likes a GT6 car sound? Maybe the sounds in GT7 will be remotely acceptable to most people. :D

I found that quite interesting :lol:

I suppose when PD takes out the clinical feel to the sound and adds the other factors then it will be a feast for the ears.
 
I'd love to see the day PD begins to implement AES on machines where exhaust can be upgraded.

So far the existing 16 or so AES machines don't have that option.
 
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At least the "new" sounds are very pleasing , the LM55 sounds amazing , not amazing for GT , but amazing period.

PD are going on the right path as far as sounds go , now i'd like to see the new sounds being implemented on all cars wich is what is going to happen on GT7 most likely.

Now we don't have to worry about sounds as much , just my 2 cents.
 
I played the GTR LM videos I posted further up in this thread at the same time. If you play the vids at the same time when the car is on a straight. They actually sound very identical. It's just that GT's one is still pretty clinical.

The environment that the car is in also has to be taken into account. There should be some slight echo on the track when the chase camera is on the exterior. obviously in replays the echo would be stronger though. Forza 5 has this quite right though I have to say it was a bit over done on some tracks.
 
What I like about the sound of the new cars is they really break the belief that it's a replication of the sound. Hard to explain, but the best way I can put it is you feel like you are actually with the car as opposed to hearing it as a recording on TV. It sounds very crisp. The only other game I've got this sensation from is raceroom.
 
Dear PD,

The induction, exhaust and all other factors. If the full package in GT7 sounds like this, I'll gladly say that this AES system is great



@Griffith500 , wouldn't it be possible to simulate the sound of induction noise by using a sort of vacuum/air compressor through an actual induction pipe and filter so it eliminates the sound of engine noise? Possibly even for individual throttle bodies? I mentioned something like this before for Blow Off Valves through a Mighty Car Mods video, an air compressor, piping, BOV of choice and boom, blow off valve separate from the engine to record.:sly:
 
Really hope PD pull off a great sound engine, car sounds are lacking in most games IMO. Hopefully they will be the first to put a smile on your face you get if you were in the real thing or listening from the outside. It will be awesome if they fine tune AES on how the car actually sounds than based on some recordings depending on quality.

I had a listen of a car (Maserati GranTurismo MC Stradale) on YouTube on multiple videos and the recordings didn't do it justice in accuracy IMO. My BlackBerry Passport has quite decent mics and hearing the recording of that from that even from a long distance sounds quite accurate. In the car though the recording didn't do it the same justice of how it actually sounds. In race mode, the car sounds awesome including downshifts so PD better get the ferocious sounds right.
 
It's not though. That sound still has all of the issues of any GT sound. You can tell what they've recorded but then they've added some hoover effects to it so it still just sounds like a Dyson.

Ever heard how a turbo car sounds? Whether in action or a dyno?
 
Ever heard how a turbo car sounds? Whether in action or a dyno?

Yes I have, and I understand that the Nismo is a turbo but the simple fact of the matter is the GT6 sound doesn't sound like the real thing. You can tell they've recorded from it as there is the vague hint, but then it's overdone with effects and it sounds ridiculous. It gets worst the higher up the rev range.

There's a distinct element to the sound which means you know it's from a Gran Turismo game.

If you played me a bunch of sounds in succession and asked me to pick the GT one I bet I could and that's a huge issue.
 
Yes I have, and I understand that the Nismo is a turbo but the simple fact of the matter is the GT6 sound doesn't sound like the real thing. You can tell they've recorded from it as there is the vague hint, but then it's overdone with effects and it sounds ridiculous. It gets worst the higher up the rev range.

There's a distinct element to the sound which means you know it's from a Gran Turismo game.

If you played me a bunch of sounds in succession and asked me to pick the GT one I bet I could and that's a huge issue.

It's the shifting sound, it's always the same. GT6 sounds alot better when you use an H-shifter.
 
Yes I have, and I understand that the Nismo is a turbo but the simple fact of the matter is the GT6 sound doesn't sound like the real thing. You can tell they've recorded from it as there is the vague hint, but then it's overdone with effects and it sounds ridiculous. It gets worst the higher up the rev range.

There's a distinct element to the sound which means you know it's from a Gran Turismo game.

If you played me a bunch of sounds in succession and asked me to pick the GT one I bet I could and that's a huge issue.

When I meant turbo I meant there is a windy & sound to a turbo's exhaust.
AES as far as I know and don't take my word for it , the sound is "made" not sampled. What overdone effects are these?

In other news, Interior sound. Right now I'm not feeling the reverby sound in GT6. I popped in GT5P tonight and it sounded right. The interior sound I say should sound as if the exhaust and induction are in unison but muffled, even the wind noise. The reverb I suppose would make sense for a completely stripped out racecar but it in a road car it seems weird.

Quick example from something I was listening to now

Start from 13:15 and listen till your heart's content. Heck listen to the other cars if you want. It's just not translated though.

 
I think you mean to say when you use the clutch. Sounds the same if you use a H-shifter without clutch. But yeah, clutching makes it sound more "realistic" in terms of gear change, but not the sound itself. :)

Indeed, clutching is what I've meant to say. I think it sounds fine on the cars with "premium" sounds, like the 97T.
 
What's causing the excessive rasp on some of these AES cars at full throttle? I love the way they sound overall but it becomes almost unbearable to listen to them for extended periods of time. I could only last two minutes with the Tomahawk X on SSRX before I started to get a headache.
 
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