The Sound Update Thread (The Return)

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Chippy595,
that RAM cost, in GT6 some times the sound starts late or even starts at a high pitch.
Is the reason that the system doesn't have any RAM left at that moment?
 
With modern game audio engines the asset management issue is virtually non-existent.
I'm going to call "oversimplification" here. ;) And I'll use a couple of examples, Toca and Forza, particularly TRD3 and F4.

In those games, the car sounds were whittled back to an extreme extent. If you watch replays in either, the only car which has its own samples is the "camera focus" car, usually yours, since you can select the car to view in Forza, while the rest have generic samples for the most part. In Toca, there's a general "honeybee buzz" of racing background sound, and then over it will come a sample roaring in over the others as your car approaches and flies past the camera. In F4, this "roar" is particularly acute, as races using stock street cars have samples of seriously upgraded machines, and your car will literally roar from a half mile away over the pack of, dare I say it, vacuum cleaners. It drowns out a few cars as it roars past, and then sounds clearly over the pack as it roars into a reverberant distance. And on certain turns on certain tracks like Indianapolis infield, the tire samples are clipped into morse code sounding chirps, evidently because ram is in short supply for them. And when you change camera cars in Forza replays, the game goes dark and silent for several seconds, and I discovered that it's because the game is loading in the high quality samples for the focus car. I found this out because I was growing annoyed at the horrendous sound of an RX-7 I was racing, and much preferred the samples of another RX-7 with more basic samples that passed me. I switched to it, waited the usual 7 to 10 seconds for the replay to adjust, and... was greeted by the same awful moaning racket. :P

It occurred to me that this was particularly strange for Toca because there are a lot of races with only one to three makes of car, maybe four, so the audio asset footprint shouldn't be that large. So the reason might simply be processor overhead for other uses than audio. Forza, I can understand because in a Forza 4 sixteen car race, each one can be a completely different make, unlike the usual racing game which is based on pro racing with a much smaller number of league allowed machines. Forza and GT both skimp on samples but in different ways: GT has smaller less flamboyant samples, Forza has one set for one to maybe a few models. Although the move to The ONE! has dealt with this issue from what I understand.

Proper recording of a car is indeed a lot like miking a drumkit, which I discovered first hand as a recording engineer requires a certain attention to detail. The kit for the last project I engineered and produced sounded outstanding... except for the kick drum, which I just couldn't manage to get as right as I wanted in those sessions. It worked, but... was meh.

Technically true but only if your synths sound good. Developing synths costs you development hours, which is in-house code development time. Also there's no pre-existing solution for this type of audio system, so you'll be essentially developing your own audio engine from scratch.
Unless your partner is Yamaha, which I believe Griffith500 mentioned in the past, PD has evidently been working with for years. Back in the 1990s, Yamaha produced a few synths based on physical modeling. I have one of the synths which use this technique, and the few instruments which are modeled sound amazing. Whatever method PD uses, we'll have to wait and see if the audio in GT7 is a jump up to RaceRoom quality, which I agree with a previous poster is the one game so far which impresses me.
 
The high pitched sqeaulingm drop out and delay thing is a buffering bug, because it needs to be dynamic for lots of sources - once they properly fix it, we may get lots of sources. :dopey:
Video games as a whole aren't into a "mature" space to start with, but recording cars for use in video games is exceptionally rare. There's maybe a total of 50 people on the planet who have done so as a profession. Recording in and of itself is a very artistic process as well - just putting a microphone in front of a thing doesn't guarantee that you record the sound you set out to capture. Cars in particular are very complex to record (kind of like a drumkit) because the sound sources are spread out over an area, and depending on where your ears are in relation to them you hear things differently. Add on top of that the volume, which affects our ears and a microphone in radically different ways, and then throw the recording environment in on top of all of that, and it's very easy to understand that a professional recording sounds different from a cell phone video, which sounds different from the real thing. Recording cars presents a host of technical challenges too, where mic placement in relation to a massive wind source of an intake/exhaust or worse on a moving car means what was a great sound at standstill or near idle becomes unusable at higher RPMs.
I didn't mean to suggest there was no art in recording, but it is a far more mature field than samples - cars weren't the first loud or windy sources people tried to record. My intuition tells me there's a difference between recording for reference purposes, and recording for the purposes of extracting samples.
With modern game audio engines the asset management issue is virtually non-existent.
As long as you shell out the licensing fee for the off-the-shelf product. But we're not talking about Indie devs here, we're talking about a big budget first party game - and a racing game to boot. Every software developer knows, if you can buy it in, do it. But only as long as it delivers what you need and doesn't compromise things in other areas. Note iRacing's decision to abandon FMod integration.

There's still that non-linear growth in time for content production issue as it relates to the ever increasing quality targets.
Technically true but only if your synths sound good. Developing synths costs you development hours, which is in-house code development time. Also there's no pre-existing solution for this type of audio system, so you'll be essentially developing your own audio engine from scratch. Not a lot of studios have the capital to invest dev time for such a thing, and publishers probably wouldn't bother funding such a system because of its limited usefulness outside of a racing game. By comparison you can outsource recordings that work with wwise/fmod to people like me for super cheap, and assuming your library of recordings is of a high enough quality, should last you a great many years before needing to be replaced.
There are pre-existing solutions, actually, mostly in research. There was one commercial product (which I'm sure you're aware of) that flopped in the '90s, because the processing power wasn't there yet.

Quality will be a tradeoff with expression, and expression is lacking with samples, but you get it for free with physically based synthesis. Sonory produces high quality synthesised samples for use in FMod, with advantages not possible with traditional samples (for-free phase alignment, variable source / ambient colouration, component deconstruction etc.)

...Thanks to the power of computers as well as the power of the new consoles, you can now feed a program an audio sample, and the computer can design the manipulations needed to make oscillators and filters reproduce that sound. So, if you had a great recording of a car going through its RPM band, you could feed this recording to the program and let it learn the manipulations needed to recreate every RPM.
There's no evidence this is what PD have done. There is evidence to suggest that this was the route Turn10 were looking into, however...

Then, you take those manipulations and program them to be driven by the game physics engine. What you get is a CPU-intensive but RAM-free audio system.
Not true, you need buffers to work in, and you will typically exchange the RAM usage you had before for the same (equivalent) amount of buffer space. Thankfully the trend is to allow sound more CPU cycles, because contrary to what you said, even sampling requires a lot of CPU (sinc resampling, in Codemaster's case, plus 25 32-bit float bus channels for spatial audio mixing! Etc.)

... However I am quite skeptical that such a system is already in existence in GT6.

Have you played the game, yet? When all I heard were recordings, I didn't believe there was anything different either. When I got my hands on the cars in question, I recognised instantly what was happening, from my own work.


[edit] oh and a blurb on the cost/workflow bit - the key part of the modern synth approach is that it still is dependent on a quality recording to reproduce, and its output can only be as good as the recording it's fed. Also the quality of the audio is dependent on how many oscillators the system is allowed to run - if it can only have 8 oscillators it'll sound like an NES for example.
You still need recordings, but only as a reference, as a minimum. There is no real need to feed the recordings into a pre-processor. I think you have a very old-fashioned view of where modeling synthesis has come.
 
Mike Caviezel is the guy, and now he's senior audio lead at Poliphony Digital.

That does seem like good news. As for that 2016/2017 release date part, it's fake, and has been re-posted on the Internet since April. I know because Nico_Ble99 told me that. So GT7 is still going for a 2015/2016 release.

Hope that covers everything about GT7's release date.
 
If I'm looking at it right the AESSLOT has 68, nearly all are filled with temporary AESparameters twice, so:

tmpstroke_type x2
tmpn_cylinders x2

etc. some are not identifiable.



AESTIMING x 134

AESValve x 10

AESThrEvoAngleMap x 8

AESWaveform x 10


68? Goodness I expected like 10.

So it seems PD is really going in with this method. However what bugs me is that why is all of this in the PS3 code now or is it just being saved for the PS4 and the PS3 is being used as a Guinea Pig?

Another question, if the way of producing sound now is CPU intensive and uses less RAM, then isn't it bad for the PS4 since the weakness of that console is its CPU? Correct me if I'm wrong
 
68? Goodness I expected like 10.

So it seems PD is really going in with this method. However what bugs me is that why is all of this in the PS3 code now or is it just being saved for the PS4 and the PS3 is being used as a Guinea Pig?

Another question, if the way of producing sound now is CPU intensive and uses less RAM, then isn't it bad for the PS4 since the weakness of that console is its CPU? Correct me if I'm wrong
I think it will not be as bad. The GPU will make many calculations that will free the CPU. Also optimizing with the new architecture should be easier.
 
@citroengt1 - griffith500 answered your question above.

Note iRacing's decision to abandon FMod integration.
It's good that you bring the iRacing bit up, because it demonstrates something a lot of industries run into. The developer, formerly Papyrus, had its own unique engine for their NASCAR games. When moving forward to iRacing, much of the codebase of Papyrus' titles was recycled, and then updated where necessary. They then wanted to consider replacing the custom engine with FMOD (Designer, at the time) but discovered it would be too much work to make FMOD work with their existing assets and other systems. The key here is that once a system is established it is monumentally more difficult to change to a new one than to start over from scratch. Anyway my point is that iRacing dropped FMOD because it wasn't cost-effective to make the changes to an existing system, not because it was inherently worse.

Quality will be a tradeoff with expression, and expression is lacking with samples, but you get it for free with physically based synthesis. Sonory produces high quality synthesised samples for use in FMod, with advantages not possible with traditional samples (for-free phase alignment, variable source / ambient colouration, component deconstruction etc.)
you're talking about this Sonory? you don't get phase alignment with crossfades in FMOD Designer, so that's wrong, but none of the stuff they have on offer handles whatever else you're talking about. Also I don't know if you've loaded up their loops before or not, but the V8 that sounds really good in their subaru youtube video doesn't sound nearly as good when not being recorded over a camera phone. It also has loops at like a 250 RPM interval IIRC, been a while since I looked. I don't know enough about their creation process to know how they made the loops, but that's a bit irrelevant at this point since once it hits a game it's back into a loop system.

Also I'm not entirely sure what you mean by expression in the above quote. Surely a quality sound is also an expressive sound?

Not true, you need buffers to work in, and you will typically exchange the RAM usage you had before for the same (equivalent) amount of buffer space. Thankfully the trend is to allow sound more CPU cycles, because contrary to what you said, even sampling requires a lot of CPU (sinc resampling, in Codemaster's case, plus 25 32-bit float bus channels for spatial audio mixing! Etc.)
yes running the mixer requires CPU space, but that requirement is constant regardless of the material. Comparing only the methods of synthesis, loop-based systems are much more RAM-intensive.

Have you played the game, yet? When all I heard were recordings, I didn't believe there was anything different either. When I got my hands on the cars in question, I recognised instantly what was happening, from my own work.
you always ask me this, the answer is always yes, and then followed by that I don't hear anything different from any other car, though perhaps some have a loopset that blends together quite a bit better than others.


You still need recordings, but only as a reference, as a minimum. There is no real need to feed the recordings into a pre-processor. I think you have a very old-fashioned view of where modeling synthesis has come.
If you're insinuating that some physical modeling system in which you plug in some numbers about the engine and exhaust into a synth will then spit out audio telling you what that'll sound like is feasible for video games on a current console, you've lost it ;) That software does exist and some car manufacturers use it for exhaust system design to some extent, however you'll notice that it doesn't sound good. This method is ultimately where we'll probably end up, but it's not ready yet, and isn't going to be for a long time.
 
68?So it seems PD is really going in with this method. However what bugs me is that why is all of this in the PS3 code now or is it just being saved for the PS4 and the PS3 is being used as a Guinea Pig?


As far as I can remember, Kazunori said they were developing GT6 from the ground up, so they can maintain the whole code structure for PS4, that way they can just "port it" to the next generation of Playstation and so on upgrading where necessary. He even said they are planning to have a "Gran Turismo" title that can be updated from time to time and get rid of the numbers in the franchise.
Sounds good to me :)

Ps: As @Tenacious D said, I agree, RaceRoom should be their goal right now. I can't remember how many times I listened to their cars, it's sound bloody amazing.
 
I'm going to call "oversimplification" here. ;) And I'll use a couple of examples, Toca and Forza, particularly TRD3 and F4.

The two examples you gave are examples of a technique called level of detail scaling (or "LOD" for short). This is really common to use for visuals - things that are far away use a lower-poly model to save rendering performance - but the principle is the same for audio. Things that you don't expect to hear in high fidelity (ie far away cars in this case) can use a lower-quality example of itself. This isn't really asset management in the traditional sense - managing assets is like maintaining a library of assets. Rather, LOD scaling is a method of dealing with budgetary constraints. It's a choice. For example, if I know my full-up car model costs X ram and Y cpu, then given my budget I can afford to have N cars playing. If I incorporate an LOD system that reduces X and Y by half, then I can have N+2 cars playing. Etc. There's a multitude of different factors and this is very simplified, but the different ways that companies address the budgetary concerns is why audio engines differ so greatly across similarly-themed titles.
 
If you're insinuating that some physical modeling system in which you plug in some numbers about the engine and exhaust into a synth will then spit out audio telling you what that'll sound like is feasible for video games on a current console, you've lost it ;) That software does exist and some car manufacturers use it for exhaust system design to some extent, however you'll notice that it doesn't sound good. This method is ultimately where we'll probably end up, but it's not ready yet, and isn't going to be for a long time.
I thought that was what this whole AES thing was about. :confused:

For once, PD actually took something from Turn 10 :lol:
Curious what @Tenacious D has to say about this since he's said before he's not a big fan of Forza's sounds and prefers GT's sounds currently. :lol:
 
Curious what @Tenacious D has to say about this since he's said before he's not a big fan of Forza's sounds and prefers GT's sounds currently. :lol:
Basically I shrugged. In fact, if you'll recall I hadn't commented at all yet. I knew it can be a very good thing or just one log on the fire. However, I know that Kaz won't allow the same exaggerated acoustic shenanigans Turn 10 encouraged.

And you remember correctly that I don't like the sounds in Forza 4. I think you remember anyhow. If you recall even more completely, it's because I found the overly loud distorted sounds to be quite obnoxious, and in my first run of seven weeks, I adamantly refrained from upgrading the exhaust system because I didn't want it to get even worse. :P

@Chippy569 it seems that I addressed the issue tangentially to what you were discussing with Griffith. But then, it was 5 AM and posting at that hour after a strenuous stint of virtual warfare can have unintended consequences...

Another couple of quickies.

So it seems PD is really going in with this method. However what bugs me is that why is all of this in the PS3 code now or is it just being saved for the PS4 and the PS3 is being used as a Guinea Pig?

Another question, if the way of producing sound now is CPU intensive and uses less RAM, then isn't it bad for the PS4 since the weakness of that console is its CPU? Correct me if I'm wrong
I'm thinking that as far as the PS3 is being pushed, the processing Griffith500 is describing is minimal. Kind of like the tesselation which is built into the PS4 is implemented in a limited way in GT6 in software. So mostly a "guinea pig," I'd imagine.

As for the PS4 (and The ONE's!) CPU, it's only relatively weak compared to current PCs and Macs. In fact, it's an APU, combined AMD CPU and Radeon graphics processor in one megachip. But it's a much more powerful architecture compared to the current consoles. I was overjoyed to hear that Project CARS has 42 cars in race on PS4! At 1080p! This bodes very well for much larger race fields in GT7 than I originally thought. So the PS4 hardware seems adequately robust.

Ps: As @Tenacious D said, I agree, RaceRoom should be their goal right now. I can't remember how many times I listened to their cars, it's sound bloody amazing.
Previously, I've said the goals Kazunori sets should be aimed at the real world rather than another game, though the Forza Livery Editor is an elegant and very powerful solution. So sound recreation should be compared to the car being recorded for instance. Still, the audio bar RaceRoom set is very high, quite realistic, and makes for an excellent benchmark.
 
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Now, all PD needs to do is take the lead vinyl/livery guy from T10 and we're good to go!
You win the internet.jpg
 
AES in this context means an acoustical synthesis modeling system some people believed PD were developing. I don't know how much technical audio context you have, so sorry if my explanation is either too simplistic or too complex, but ask away if it's on the too complex side.

With the PS2/Xbox Original generation of consoles, there was enough RAM space for racing games to explore using long .wav files as a realistic audio source, and the development of the current-ish audio technique used by GT and by Forza (and plenty others) was born. Essentially, you record the car holding one RPM (usually using a dyno to achieve that part) for a few seconds, and then from that cut a looping audio file, usually around 1.5 seconds long. Repeat this process for some interval throughout the RPM band. Then, in the game engine, use pitch-shifting and crossfading to transition from loop to loop. The number of loops you can have is determined by your RAM budget, but this system uses very little CPU cycles.

Codemasters uses a slightly different technique called "granular synthesis" wherein the audio file is chopped up into extremely small loops - the size of 1 engine firing event - and then these little pieces are called grains. The engine knows what the exact RPM of each grain is, and when the game engine calls for a certain RPM the sound system will pick grains near that RPM in a random fashion. This process eliminates a lot of the artifacts that loop systems can exhibit, but comes at a much greater CPU cost and doesn't save much RAM cost.

In the NES/SNES/etc days, there wasn't such a thing as playing an audio file. In those days, you had audio oscillators on a chip that you had to manipulate and program to make the sounds you wanted to hear. This would be a lot closer to the concept of "synthesizer" that the public generally thinks of when they hear that word - modifying filters and oscillators to create a sound. Anyway, AES is essentially that concept all grown up. Thanks to the power of computers as well as the power of the new consoles, you can now feed a program an audio sample, and the computer can design the manipulations needed to make oscillators and filters reproduce that sound. So, if you had a great recording of a car going through its RPM band, you could feed this recording to the program and let it learn the manipulations needed to recreate every RPM. Then, you take those manipulations and program them to be driven by the game physics engine. What you get is a CPU-intensive but RAM-free audio system.

The reason the synthesizer concept got really popular here was that the reason GT's sounds are all vacuum-y is because they use the loop-based system, with very few loops (like 3 per RPM band few). The assumption is that the reasoning behind so few loops is that the game RAM-limits its audio (presumably to make more RAM available for visuals). So moving the audio to a synthesized system that has no RAM cost but potentially improves the audio quality by a drastic amount is very enticing for fans, and I believe Griffith500 has been the driving force in promoting the idea that this synthesis model is happening. However I am quite skeptical that such a system is already in existence in GT6.

Hope that helps.

[edit] oh and a blurb on the cost/workflow bit - the key part of the modern synth approach is that it still is dependent on a quality recording to reproduce, and its output can only be as good as the recording it's fed. Also the quality of the audio is dependent on how many oscillators the system is allowed to run - if it can only have 8 oscillators it'll sound like an NES for example.
Thank you, I actually do a good bit of sound work for PC based Sims and I'm very familiar with the RFactor and Papyrus/iRacing architecture in regards to sound. I just didn't know what the acronym stood for.

Just as a reference, Papyrus Sims use ~5-7 wav files just for acceleration, 3-5 for deceleration and then various other files for transmition whine idle etc.

Interesting side note, pre IRacing (aka NR2003), papyrus tuned all samples to a certain frequency (usually 40hz for most samples) in order to let them transition more smoothly from sample to sample. I've yet to see that in any other Sim that I've looked at.
 
I'm going to ignore the sideshow of technical theoretics for just a moment and focus on this:

you always ask me this, the answer is always yes, and then followed by that I don't hear anything different from any other car, though perhaps some have a loopset that blends together quite a bit better than others.
This is actually the first time you've answered in the affirmative, or at all, that I remember.

No-one has been able to find those loops you are convinced exist, and the cars in question sound different on-track and in the datalogger - at the very least using different loops (those used in the datalogger can be found, by direct reference).

The AES files themselves (which only those cars that sound "different" have, by direct reference) tell the whole story; but I appreciate you may have missed that.

The recent posts from Whistle Snap show that the structure and content of those files has changed, yet again. The features and functionality of the AES system have been audibly tweaked in a few updates, and certain cars use unique features, sort of like "tests".

What's more, these files hint at parameterisations similar to ones I used myself in my own models...
Bear in mind that there is much more known about PD's various systems, by those with the skills and inclination to go digging, than is made public.
 
I know it's from another game but....

Today i had the PLEASURE to play with the Alpine A110 in DriveClub, i don't know why i never had a try with this car but, man... THAT SOUND!!

The sound in DriveClub is good, but the Alpine is just amazing.

If the sound of GT6 is near of that, i'll be happy. I think that this guy from T10 shows that Kazunori really wants to change some stuff in the game, and that's really good!

But, can someone tell me if is him the first non japonese guy to work directly on PD Studios? i mean, with something that big.
 
I know it's from another game but....

Today i had the PLEASURE to play with the Alpine A110 in DriveClub, i don't know why i never had a try with this car but, man... THAT SOUND!!

The sound in DriveClub is good, but the Alpine is just amazing.

If the sound of GT6 is near of that, i'll be happy. I think that this guy from T10 shows that Kazunori really wants to change some stuff in the game, and that's really good!

But, can someone tell me if is him the first non japonese guy to work directly on PD Studios? i mean, with something that big.

I believe he would be the first western employee PD has hired.
 
I heard about the Forza guy....

That chap has been confirmed though, could be things happening behind the scenes for all we know. You know how quiet PD can be then BAAM!

I agree with @Tenacious D in that the Forza 4 sounds from what I've heard on Youtube are kinda loud,distorted and brash. Whereas in Forza 2 and 5 the sounds are smooth and clean. Mike worked on those Forza games I've mentioned.

Here's evidence to support my claim.





I think Forza 2 sounds perfect and in tune:drool: gear changes and all! All it just needs is the exhaust crackles and pops, maybe an external wastegate sound, induction noise and boom.

Mike and PD Sound Team, please give us this!
 
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Wow... I forgot how horrendously LOUD the player's car is in Forza 4. If they'd shown a replay of the race, you'd hear that Subi a mile away roaring over the meek sounding car pack. The tire sounds though, and the kinetic behavior of the cars on their suspensions are top notch. Better than I've seen in racing sims prior to Assetto Corsa.

I'll have to say that even in GT6, many of the car sounds have come a long way towards this and RaceRoom standards. If you don't have a double take after running some of these beefier cars, and race cars like the NASCARS, the HSV and the FT-1s, you're just showing your bias. I'm just not all into the engine notes of these cars as I'm known to say, but when I did some quickie races before bed last night, I was quite amazed at a lot of the cars I hadn't sat down with for two months. They really sound darn good. The WRXs and Supras among many street cars... yeah, that has to be tended to, but I'm encouraged by what we've got so far. GT7 should be one heck of a game all around.
 
They may have lent a few Audio guys to PD for all we know. Evo and PD are under Sony plus they're exclusive flagship games so Sony must have made some bartering happen.


We also need to remember that Sony has reorganized their entire First party studios to become something even more solid than before. They share information across all studios all around the world, and I can assure you that PD is inside a very important circle for them.
Right now, at least to my eyes, Sony has the best combination internally when you're talking about studios...
...Hell, that's an old story if you ask me, they have assembled an impressive group since the days of PS2... and not only in gaming but in the other areas as well, but that's a different topic.
 
You won't ever get a Race Room sound in GT since they create their sounds by flattening the pitch of pass bys of the real cars. This only works for vehicles which are loud enough to capture enough detail in the distance as the cars approach and drive off. The majority of the cars in GT simply won't be loud enough for this to work.

Question - is AES actually this - - Roberson Audio Engine Synthesizer
 
It will be interesting if we ever get to the point of having "passby wars" and "idle battles" and "doppler approach fights." :D
 
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