The Sound Update Thread (The Return)

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Sounds like someone blowing through a vibrating beer can to me:ouch:

I think with the X that they were trying to duplicate the sort of pitch that is found on old F1 cars from the early 90s. Went abit overboard with it. The S and GTS-R sound find (Apart from the funky tall 7th gear).
 
I think with the X that they were trying to duplicate the sort of pitch that is found on old F1 cars from the early 90s. Went abit overboard with it. The S and GTS-R sound find (Apart from the funky tall 7th gear).

Yeah , what's up with the 7th gear? Useless. :boggled:
 
The situation with the Tomahawk X is best explained by this picture:

i1gzMnIHQav3Fz.jpg

No real world V10 uses that configuration (for several good reasons).

The other two variants, whilst distinct from each other in terms of the exhaust tract, are actually very similar in terms of their base sound, whereas the X variant is unique in both the base sound and the colouration from the tract (and all that rasp). The 14 000 rpm playground has a lot to do with it as well.

The rasp, by the way, is so overblown because PD don't have intake sounds, yet.

...

@Griffith500 , wouldn't it be possible to simulate the sound of induction noise by using a sort of vacuum/air compressor through an actual induction pipe and filter so it eliminates the sound of engine noise? Possibly even for individual throttle bodies? I mentioned something like this before for Blow Off Valves through a Mighty Car Mods video, an air compressor, piping, BOV of choice and boom, blow off valve separate from the engine to record.:sly:

The sound of induction into an ICE is a pressure phenomenon resulting from the intake valves opening (IVO); when the valve opens, a "negative" pressure wave communicates through the ducting and air is pushed in to equalise the pressure in the cylinder. Same for the exhaust, but with a "positive" wave: positive pressure relative to atmospheric, gas flows out of the cylinder.

The best way to get the best picture of all the acoustic phenomenon that affect that "pressure equalisation" is to use a real engine cylinder, and the easiest way to get the dynamic situation of all the overlapping pressure waves in the ducting and the cylinder(s) is just to run it. Anything short of that dynamic and spatial accuracy is not going to give the full picture.



I think you could probably just motor the engine (e.g. with an electric motor) and it'll work with less noise, but the cylinder conditions at IVO are partially determined by the combustion process (and the exhaust tract), so it shouldn't be ignored. I.e. you need to record a real engine, running normally, for reference.

If you're using a recording for reference, and not for playback in-game, the absolute isolation of all sources is not strictly necessary (not that PD manage it with their recordings anyway), but it would be useful for development of the model itself. You could use a few examples whose intake sound is easily isolated, or use manufacturers' data.



Regarding the model itself, automotive engineers use simulation to quickly determine a starting point for all the ducting, cam timing etc. for the engine, including silencing requirements. That might be a good place to start looking. If you want to measure the acoustic response of ducts and their ancillaries, the work has already been done and there are tomes full of empirical data as well as empirical and physical models intended for design work in engineering, and which could be coerced into a model fit for a game.

However, for some reason I found it very hard to model the induction sound properly when I didn't much struggle with the exhaust situation. I'm still not sure exactly why that was - I applied the same process to both, but the results just came out better for exhausts. Maybe there is an inherent difficulty with induction that PD is also facing (likely related to non-linearity).

Still, the basic induction noise I ended up using made enough of a difference, and it should be possible to cheat with it if it won't model itself right...

Raceroom has set the bar where trans whine and trans modelling is concerned!

www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y5SMi6FfyyI

I think iRacing still has the crown:



It's not just an effect, it's part of the physics simulation:

buildnotes
Flexible Drivetrains

- All cars now have flex modeled in their drivetrain math, instead of being perfectly rigid. This gives all kinds of subtle and interesting audible and physical engine rpm wobble effects.
Source.

Most other sims use scripted effects, or at most a primitive, single mass-spring approximation, rather than the (likely still simplified) full system representation iRacing uses.
 
So...
What's causing the excessive rasp on some of these AES cars at full throttle? I love the way they sound overall but it becomes almost unbearable to listen to them for extended periods of time.
I remember it being mentioned by one of the sound experts here but I don't remember where it was.
 
My own experience would suggest the excessive rasp is being used to cover up missing sources, mainly intake sound, as noted in the post above yours. ;)

I once made a quiet video (using lo-fi synth) intended to illustrate the issue:



Intake and exhaust sounds combine to make the overall sound; most people aren't used to hearing either in isolation, and many people can't distinguish either source alone when heard together. By playing them back alone, in the exact state they were meant to be heard together, they don't sound half as good as when combined.

To compensate, in the exhaust only case, you can take steps to "roughen it up" a bit. Even with the "roughened" exhaust sound, adding intake back in still sounds better overall.
 
I think iRacing still has the crown:



It's not just an effect, it's part of the physics simulation:


Source.

Most other sims use scripted effects, or at most a primitive, single mass-spring approximation, rather than the (likely still simplified) full system representation iRacing uses.


I think the iRacing effect sounds great in outside view but not the best in the cockpit.
Raceroom's trans is also physics driven.

New Transmission Model
This feature has been developed in close relationship with the engineers from the RML Group. The exchange of data and expertise has proven of great value for nailing a realistic recreation of the whole engine/transmission interaction.
The New Transmission Model simulates the drivetrain elasticity, which will not only result in a more realistic driving behavior but also in much more natural and organic sounds. All cars currently available have been updated with this new feature.

The modeling is second to none imo. The loading and unloading characteristics is far more realistic than anything I've played so far including iRacing.
 
I think the iRacing effect sounds great in outside view but not the best in the cockpit.
Raceroom's trans is also physics driven.

The modeling is second to none imo. The loading and unloading characteristics is far more realistic than anything I've played so far including iRacing.

Raceroom has a "better-sounding" whine sample, and that means it's a better simulation?

The fact that you state the driveline flex sounds OK on external views, but not internal, indicates you're fixated on the aesthetic issue, and not the actual simulation. The effect of the simulation sounds identical on the interior and exterior in iRacing - it's physics. The weird chopping effect in iRacing's gear whine is due to volume clamping; when using samples, without resorting to multi-sampling, you only really have volume to communicate any change in load, whereas real sounds change in other ways. You need to keep volumes of sources under control, as GT5 and GT6 demonstrated, and the clamped whine masks the engine sound slightly on the interior.


The video you posted has none of the subtle nuance that iRacing's has, precisely because it's so overblown in the aesthetics - like a caricature. That's regardless of the actual fidelity of the underlying simulation, which is actually hard to discern as a result - mainly, I'd say, because the sound engine can't keep up with the physics, resulting in a different kind of choppiness (something Papyrus anticipated in 1999). That subtlety is important in communication, which is the reason for Papyrus making the audio synchronous with the physics, not the graphics, in the first place.

Maybe they'll fix that eventually, but the overall effect is still better in iRacing because it was considered as a part of a whole system; RRRE just seems to have copied for the sake of a feature list, and because visceral, without regard as to how it fits with the rest of the systems.
 
Raceroom has a "better-sounding" whine sample, and that means it's a better simulation?

The fact that you state the driveline flex sounds OK on external views, but not internal, indicates you're fixated on the aesthetic issue, and not the actual simulation. The effect of the simulation sounds identical on the interior and exterior in iRacing - it's physics. The weird chopping effect in iRacing's gear whine is due to volume clamping; when using samples, without resorting to multi-sampling, you only really have volume to communicate any change in load, whereas real sounds change in other ways. You need to keep volumes of sources under control, as GT5 and GT6 demonstrated, and the clamped whine masks the engine sound slightly on the interior.


The video you posted has none of the subtle nuance that iRacing's has, precisely because it's so overblown in the aesthetics - like a caricature. That's regardless of the actual fidelity of the underlying simulation, which is actually hard to discern as a result - mainly, I'd say, because the sound engine can't keep up with the physics, resulting in a different kind of choppiness (something Papyrus anticipated in 1999). That subtlety is important in communication, which is the reason for Papyrus making the audio synchronous with the physics, not the graphics, in the first place.

Maybe they'll fix that eventually, but the overall effect is still better in iRacing because it was considered as a part of a whole system; RRRE just seems to have copied for the sake of a feature list, and because visceral, without regard as to how it fits with the rest of the systems.

To each his own lol.

I'm saying Raceroom is better because of the trans modeling , not because of the whine itself.

The loading and unloading of the gearbox is simply astounding!

 
And I said I couldn't tell what was going on under that aliased sampling.

It is an astounding effect, especially when I first heard it (alias free) two years ago. ;)

Of course, if PD implements it, they won't have any aliasing either, due to their physics-synchronous sound engine.



lol
 
So with these Tomahawks, do we finally have an example of the same engine sounding different under different tunes using AES?
 
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So with these Tomahawks, do we finally have an example of the same engine sounding different under different tunes?
Now that is a thought.

IMO they do seem to sound like completely different v10 engines, so i don't really know.
 
Raceroom gets even better... Really an awesome production from the best sound engineer of the moment for a racing videogame (Anthony Monteil). The problem with Iracing, Assetto Corsa and pCars is that only few cars really sounds great. in Raceroom, all cars sound amazing, the Group 5, WTCC and DTM really are fantastic regarding what you usually hear when you are at the track for real:





and the best for the end... the group 5!!

 
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Now that is a thought.

IMO they do seem to sound like completely different v10 engines, so i don't really know.

maybe because they sound like crap.... seriously, GT is at the moment the best Aero-Metallic-vacuum cleaner sound generator of all time... where cars NEVER sounds like cars!
 
New Rules For This Thread:

-The vacuum cleaner joke is tired and dead so can we please stop it.

- NO bashing, you may critique but not bash.

Will add this to the first post in the morrow.
 
I am sorry but I can't think of any other wording to explain how the SRT sounds... Not like a car for sure.
 
Maybe the car doesn't rev as fast as stock so it kinda gives a "different" sound , might be wrong though.
Just did the same to the x. It seems to make it quieter, like its only pressing so far on the throttle.

Yesterday was the first time in months I've been able to play gt6 btw, due to my previous PS3 breaking, and I have to say the improved sound on these vgt cars really makes a difference to the gameplay
 
Just did the same to the x. It seems to make it quieter, like its only pressing so far on the throttle.

Yesterday was the first time in months I've been able to play gt6 btw, due to my previous PS3 breaking, and I have to say the improved sound on these vgt cars really makes a difference to the gameplay

Yes , they do improve gameplay , can't wait to have those good sounds on normal road cars and race cars.
 
I can't wait to hear what it'll sound like with Intake noise and better backfire.

Also is it just me that thinks that upshifts and downshift are just too fast and make the car sound unnatural? Maybe if you play with a clutch it might sound better , idk.
 
Another little sound mod masterpiece for Assetto Corsa upcoming mod URD PX1 (Endurance LMP1/Lmp2 with fictitious names to avoid legal problem). This time by Fonsecker!... trackside in the middle of the video. The kind of replay you like to hear.

 
New rule on the first post . Please read and adhere to it now from this post onwards. No retrospective effect.
 
New rule on the first page
The AC mod is fictional but based on the Nissan LMP1. I'm not sure if they are trying to duplicate the engine sound exactly along with the overall look of the car.
 
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Renault r24, aka a car, says hi

www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ka33m7n8MCc


I noticed that after reducing the hp on the tomahawk s the sound changed. Is this just with AES cars?
Renault were doing some weird things with firing orders back then (they tested every single one in CAE for inertial and acoustic effects in the intake plenum affecting cylinder filling - see here). Certainly by the R25, they had settled on the roughest running one, so it's perhaps not surprising one Frankenstein creation would sound like another. :P

Interesting that AES responds to the power limiter; will have to play with that myself.
 
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