The truth about American's Horsepower

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Slick6
Why don't you care what Corvette people have to say? Is it because the Z06 surpasses the GT in nearly every peformance category while doing it at 1/2 the price?
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Because if I have the money to buy either car..

I have the money to modify it..

Which I WILL do...That is a 100% given, because I have to make a car individual to myself.

And i'm sorry ./.but a ford 5.4 is 5482908x easier to get some major gains out of than the Ls7..that's just fact...I mean come on, how much does a pulley cost.....?

Long tube headers for the Z06 are like 3,000 dollars......that's crazy $$$..

yeah..stock for stock some magazines have had better times with the z06..that only means 1 thing..

The z06 is the easier of the 2 cars to drive..

Which is the EXACT same reason i'd take a viper over a z06..even if the z06 is faster...

I want a challenge, I don't want the car to baby me..

and as I said..

I'd rather change the pulley/bolt on a new supercharger..instead of..

Pop the heads off...drop the bottom end...
change the slugs...

AND 5.4's lower comp = more nitrous...

So I won't have the same problem the guy who raced termin8r did.....600HP camaro Vs 600HP C6 z06 vette..
What happened?
Vette went BOOM
 
The LS7 is nicer than the s/c 5.4 as it comes from the factory, but only because it's such a brilliant piece of engineering; the 5.4 design leaves some leeway for more power...

But when you consider the external dimesions/weights of the two enignes, the Chevy looks much more appealing.
 
Are you sure that the LS7 is nicer?

a 510-20HP 7.0L
480 some Ft lb
4 bolt main
Dry sump
eleventy million to one compession


or a 612HP Supercharged 5.4L
500 some ftlbs
4 bolt main
Dry sump
lower compression

slightly heavier, but sounder engine.....I don't see how the height and weight of the 5.4 makes the Ls7 the better engine..


Especially if a 100HP Spray on the LS7 causes it to ruin 2 pistons.
 
why don't you just supercharge the corvette? that will get you far more power than long tube headers(not that long tube's are a bad idea) maybe you havent heard that SVT tried to make the new Cobra have 375hp+ without boost at first, and after struggling for a while they determind that you need boost to get power from a Ford Modular engine (hence the new supercharged SVT Cobra).
if anyone wants to know--that's what Mustangs & Fast Fords Had to say about it
 
Driftster:

I dunno, it's a matter of personal taste. GM's small-blck team did a great job optimizing inake/exhaust flow (those LS7 heads are probably some of the best ever) while Ford just ignored this and put a supercharger on the engine.

The 5.4 is a little heavier but a lot wider/taller--the LS7 will fit in a Miata but the 5.4 has trouble fitting in a MN12 Mustang.

The LS1 used to be so durable--did they really loose all that durability in the LS7?
 
The LS7 is really durable, not bulletproof, but can take a good beating. Look at the C6R, it uses for all intesive purposes the LS7 motor in it and its fairing pretty well. When I was on the Vette project for a short time we blew one LS7 but that was because the entire office got to play around with the car. You can't over rag on the thing, but its like that for every car.

Also an LS7 Miata would make me happy in way I couldn't understand.
 
Yeah, I have a feeling that the nitrous incident is becuse those cyliders ran lean due to uneven nitrous mixing.

Which can burn a piston on any engine.
 
Oh there's no doubt the GM did did an amazing job on the LS7..the Ls7 is one of the best engines from the states in a while..

The triple entente of the Viper 8.3L the Chevy 7.0L and the Ford 5.4L has been probably the best "assault" the US has had in a while.

Ford "ignoring their heads" is part of the beauty of the 5.4 Because you know what that means?

There is THAT much more room for improvement on an already goddamn amazing engine..

And the fact that it'sonly .4 bigger than the old 302's..and making another 400 Stock HP....god that blows me away.
 
JNasty4G63
So, a new Civic Si making close to 200hp at the wheels, all while being rated at 197hp, that isn't an underestimated power output??? And, an Evo MR thats only rated at 5hp more than the standard Evo, but makes close to 20hp more. Thats not underestimated??? And, I suppose all the SRT-4s that dyno with more power to the wheels than the rated crank power is normal as well, right??? Ok, I must be mistaken. Those are right where they're supposed to be.

:rolleyes:

Hilg
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What I saw:

super cirrus began the thread comparing manufacturer's at-the-crank numbers with at-the-crank numbers calculated from a dyno.

You jumped in right away talking about Evos that make horsepower in the low 200's on a dyno.

Apparently I misinterpreted what you were trying to say. No need to be so agitated...I didn't know my post would be so insulting to you. :odd:
 
im not so convinced that the ford engine is so great. its a 4.6 liter with a supercharger for fuxxsakes. of course the added stress and heat created by the supercharger and its output bode well for the engine and its durability, but come on. that kind of power is the least we should expect.

DINAN's S2 package for the last gen M5 yielded 470hp in NA form. thats a hell of a lot more impressive for a car with no power adders and almost the same displacement. dont get me wrong, the raw numbers are very good, 500hp in anything short of a train is great, but 's nothing to write home about.
 
Wolfe2x7
Apparently I misinterpreted what you were trying to say. No need to be so agitated...I didn't know my post would be so insulting to you. :odd:
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I wasn't agitated or insulted. I just figured you misread what I said, nothing more. Sorry I came off as a smartass. I was just talking about a few cars that clearly are underrated. Thats all, nothing more. No harm done here. Sorry for the confusion.

Hilg
 
JNasty4G63
I wasn't agitated or insulted. I just figured you misread what I said, nothing more. Sorry I came off as a smartass. I was just talking about a few cars that clearly are underrated. Thats all, nothing more. No harm done here. Sorry for the confusion.

Hilg
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The confusion was my fault too, so I apologize, as well. :cheers:
 
I'm not totally sure that using a 1:1 gear would be necessary, after all as above there's still the diff at about 3.5:1 to think of, and all dyno's measure engine speed directly so the RPM is known immediately.

Most dynos use an inertial drum system. The dyno measures how fast the vehicle can accelerate a large heavy drum. If you were to use second gear it would accelerate it faster but only from say 10 to 40mph, whereas in fourth you could do 20 to 70-80ish but slower. The larger increase in speed at a slower rate will probably involve the same amount of work done. I imagine they use fourth to make the test slower and more accurate, although why not use fifth or sixth I don't know.

With the dynos I've used, transmission losses were never guessed, but tested by dipping the clutch right after the test and allowing the dyno to coast down the wheels, diff(s), and gearbox. The longer it takes the less resistance there is in the driveline. This is only a basic method though. Ideally you'd take the engine out, put an electric motor in, spin it up and measure the power the motor needs to turn the transmission. Not the most practical of options though.

Because there is a lot of inconsistency between dyno units, if you're doing something to your car, always use the same one for a before and after test. You can then see if there has been a positive change. Although whether it's 190-200hp or 200-210hp who knows...


Kurtis
 
LeadSlead#2
why don't you just supercharge the corvette? that will get you far more power than long tube headers(not that long tube's are a bad idea) maybe you havent heard that SVT tried to make the new Cobra have 375hp+ without boost at first, and after struggling for a while they determind that you need boost to get power from a Ford Modular engine (hence the new supercharged SVT Cobra).
if anyone wants to know--that's what Mustangs & Fast Fords Had to say about it
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The ls7, as a naturally aspirated engine, has a super-high compression ration. If you add a super charger you'll either have to run really low boost (and then, whats the point) to avoid detonation, or go internal with lower compression, boost friendly pistions and the accompanying hard parts.

The Ford Modular engine, while craptastic in sohc form, is a pretty decent engine as a dohc (IMO). Mach 1's have been dipping into the 12's bone stock, making them just as fast as Ls1 f-bodies, and the 2000 cobra R ran toe to toe with the Z06. Plus, heres a few more. Fast Fords
 
neanderthal
DINAN's S2 package for the last gen M5 yielded 470hp in NA form. thats a hell of a lot more impressive for a car with no power adders and almost the same displacement. dont get me wrong, the raw numbers are very good, 500hp in anything short of a train is great, but 's nothing to write home about.
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The M5 cost what, $70,000 stock? Plus how much for the mods? Vs $35,000 for a cobra. And the engine produces power like crazy. A smaller pulley, power programmer, intake and exhaust will net about 450 whp and cost about $1100. And dont even think about adding a kenne bell. Plus there are people who have already gone 9's on the stock internals. So you can keep your 470 na engine, I'll take my 450 horses and $40,000.
 
there's no Mach 1's in the 12's stock--that's the most ludacris thing I've ever heard--mid 13's at Best----The 390HP cobra's barely get in the twelve's stock
P.S.---just so you know, the Ford modular engine I spoke of was a DOHC--for the SVT just as the SVT was DOHC in the previous model
 
LeadSlead#2
there's no Mach 1's in the 12's stock--that's the most ludacris thing I've ever heard--mid 13's at Best----The 390HP cobra's barely get in the twelve's stock
P.S.---just so you know, the Ford modular engine I spoke of was a DOHC--for the SVT just as the SVT was DOHC in the previous model
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I've seen it personally, so I know its doable. The cobra's a hard car to drive, but I've seen as low as 12.4, stock. And I've heard of better.
 
LeadSlead#2
why don't you just supercharge the corvette? that will get you far more power than long tube headers(not that long tube's are a bad idea) maybe you havent heard that SVT tried to make the new Cobra have 375hp+ without boost at first, and after struggling for a while they determind that you need boost to get power from a Ford Modular engine (hence the new supercharged SVT Cobra).
if anyone wants to know--that's what Mustangs & Fast Fords Had to say about it
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Why you can't supercharge the LS7 how it comes from the factory:

- You would have to run low boost, which will still make to much power.
- You would have a short life engine, which still would make to much power.
- You would have to re-engineer the entire engine, but if you did it would make to much power.
- Oh ya guess what? It would make to much power and be unsafe for the market. GM isn't stupid, they aren't going to set themselves up for lawsuits.

But they are building the concept Blue Devil which will be supercharged. It more then likely won't see the light of day, but it should be built. However I don't really know much about it anymore.
 
if a supercharged Z06 would make to much power, than the twin-Turbo S7, & Buggati, & Enzo all make to much power as well---as for really low boost, the car already has extremely beefy internals--note the titanium connecting rods
 
I know whats in the flippin Vette, I worked on the damn project! Anyone knows that around these forums. You really can't run extremely high boost, about 8lbs. is at the safe max. But the car will take more.

And if you supercharged the Z06 you would see about 700-750hp. From a RWD car, thats around 100K, you know how many people would kill themselves in that?
 
no more than the other cars I mentioned....you saw the Enzo, & that only has 650hp
Cars don't kill people, it's the losers behind the wheel, trying to impress their friends that kill people
 
Untrained drivers with to much horsepower kill people. And you want to know what? Its the car and automakers fault in the eyes of the court during a lawsuit. And trust me, if someone crashed their 750hp factory Vette, it would be GM's fault.

PlusI highly doubt a 750hp Z06 would even be able to pass emissions.
 
Then they need help from Ford--the makers of the engine in the soon to be TT-S7(I presume when it's out it will also pass emissions)
sorry, I'm one of those crazy old-fashioned mean people that holds people responsible for their own actions---& I don't see it as any car manufacturs' fault--they could always make buyers sign a death waiver :lol: :lol:
 
super cirrus
The M5 cost what, $70,000 stock? Plus how much for the mods? Vs $35,000 for a cobra. And the engine produces power like crazy. A smaller pulley, power programmer, intake and exhaust will net about 450 whp and cost about $1100. And dont even think about adding a kenne bell. Plus there are people who have already gone 9's on the stock internals. So you can keep your 470 na engine, I'll take my 450 horses and $40,000.
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whos talking about a cobra? i thought the car in question was a ford GT.

regardless of the costs of the two engines, the numbers are rather blah for an engine that size with a power adder.
 
LeadSlead#2
why don't you just supercharge the corvette? that will get you far more power than long tube headers(not that long tube's are a bad idea) maybe you havent heard that SVT tried to make the new Cobra have 375hp+ without boost at first, and after struggling for a while they determind that you need boost to get power from a Ford Modular engine (hence the new supercharged SVT Cobra).
if anyone wants to know--that's what Mustangs & Fast Fords Had to say about it
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if a Ls7 blows up with a 100 shot....how much boost do you think it'll hold?
 
I'm failing to see what you are trying to prove. The Z06 doesn't need any power adders, it's already faster than anything being compared here. Modifying high performance vehicles is another thread in itself. The question here is about stock vehicles.
 
neanderthal
whos talking about a cobra? i thought the car in question was a ford GT.

regardless of the costs of the two engines, the numbers are rather blah for an engine that size with a power adder.


im not so convinced that the ford engine is so great. its a 4.6 liter with a supercharger for fuxxsakes.
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You were talking about the ford 4.6L supercharged v8. Since it only comes in the mustang cobra ( the Ford GT and the lightning use 5.4L supercharged V8's) I assumed thats what you were talking about. Plus, you started talking about the M5 out of the blue, too.
 
except the lightning's 5.4 and the GT's 5.4 are 2 diff engines...

but yeah..same displacement.

Slick6
I'm failing to see what you are trying to prove. The Z06 doesn't need any power adders, it's already faster than anything being compared here. Modifying high performance vehicles is another thread in itself. The question here is about stock vehicles.
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Well technically NO it's not, because the Ford GT has gotten an 11.2 1/4...I havn't seen a C6 z06 get that time yet...
but that's besides the point..

Point is, if I had the $ to get any of these cars the chances of me leaving them stock is somewhere between slim and none. Meaning I'd get the car I can not only make more power out of, I want the engine I can make that power out of more reliably with the least work.



Unless of course YOU want to get a c6 z06..and then strip the engine down and get all new internals.....I personally would rather get a kb for the top of the GT and a new pulley and tune it and make a good 650+ at the wheels

but once again that's me, from what YOU said you'd get a c6 z06 and leave it stock, and then get hammered by people with semi-modded Camaro SS's with the bottle..
 
Why would anyone ever put nitrous on a z06?

I'm sure there are people who would want to modify their z06's but unlike the average small block there aren't many instant areas to improve on.

Why would anyone put nitrous on a ford gt? Especially, as someone mentioned, when you could put a shorter belt on to bump the boost.
 
xcsti
Why would anyone ever put nitrous on a z06?
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To have 600HP on tap instead of 500?
I'm sure there are people who would want to modify their z06's but unlike the average small block there aren't many instant areas to improve on.
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Exactly, which is why that whole statement on him saying "strap a SC to the Z06 blah blah blah" was kinda lame...

Why would anyone put nitrous on a ford gt? Especially, as someone mentioned, when you could put a shorter belt on to bump the boost.
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I don't know
 
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