The truth about American's Horsepower

[LeadSlead#2]

I once heard a kid ramble about an S2000's pwr/wt ratio...he was dissing an Enzo because he thinks they don't have a good one....I laughed

has anyone realized that a Z06 would need 750HP to have the same ratio?
Blazin said they would get sued.....& he may be right

 

[retsmah]

Is the S2k engine smaller...yes
Is the S2k engine lighter...yes

Smaller and lighter than what?

 

[LeadSlead#2]

a chevy 427 with twice the power & 3-4 times the torque

hey, I drove a Mazda RX-8 once...great--Fantastic pwr-wt Ratio, horribley sluggish car though....it didnt even go very fast when I tached it to 9000 RPM! but, a great pwr/size ratio....183 ponies per liter!!! very fit & finished interior though.
I also beat one with my Grand Am---(very sad..it's a 4cyl with a bad pwr/size ratio
I love Japanese cars

 

[retsmah]

...I think now would be a good time to note that I do like cars with little high revving engines. I just don't think that you can dismiss an engine as crap because it's not putting out a ton of hp/liter.

 

[JNasty4G63]

C6 Z06, 500-horse 7.0L = 71bhp/L
ZZT230 Celica GT, 140-horse 1.8L = 77bhp/L

... 💡

You missed my point that we were talking about. I WASN'T saying that 505hp from 7.0L is impressive. I WAS saying that getting 505hp from a normally aspirated small block LS engine from the factory is impressive. Like I said, the specific output of an engine is a good stat. But, it really doesn't mean much if the car doesn't do anything with it. Like your Celica example.

Hilg

 

[toyomatt84]

Smaller and lighter than what?

It's smaller and lighter than a Z06 engine, that's for sure, but to be quite honest, I was just pointing out the fact that Jmac279 was too vague with his response.

 

[LeadSlead#2]

I have yet to hear why it's good to have lots of power per liter, so if anyone can tell me why it's a good thing, I would be very greatful
i always thought weight of car & total power are great things to have.....but I can't for the life of me figure out why you need lots of power per liter....
P.S. 6-cylinders are generally heavy engines...aka Nissan 350Z
3400lbs? why? how? where? but it's a 2-seater...and it's small...

 

[JNasty4G63]

I'll flip flop your questions to get to the obvious one first....

P.S. 6-cylinders are generally heavy engines...aka Nissan 350Z

I don't see how you figure that one??? In an earlier post, I talked about the 350Z and the older '01 Mustang Cobra. Both have basically the same power. But, the Z uses a 3.5L DOHC V6, while the Cobra uses a 4.6L DOHC V8. Which do you think is going to be heavier??? The one with 6 cylinders worth of engine, or the one with 8 cylinders???

You can't just say that "generally" they are heavy engines. Compare it to something, and then we'll see. But as is, its no different than saying "Generally, Chevys are heavy cars." Maybe, but compared to what?? See what I mean???

Next....

I have yet to hear why it's good to have lots of power per liter, so if anyone can tell me why it's a good thing, I would be very greatful

You don't NEED lots of power/liter to have a good engine. But, it can help some things, depending on what you want. Think of it this way...

Say you have a car you've designed, and you want it to have a 400hp V8 engine, but still have somewhat decent mileage. One engine design makes 100hp/L, while the other makes 65hp/L. That would measure out to a 4.0L in one, and a 6.1L in the other. There are obvious tradeoffs with torque and low end power between the two, but lets look at it from a mileage standpoint.

An engine is just a big air pump. More air in, means more fuel can be added, thus more power, and more air out. In one of those engines, you have 4.0L worth of air and fuel needed per crank rotation, while in the other one, you need 6.1L of air and fuel. Like I said, there is tradeoffs with low end power and things. But, in just normal daily driving, which do you think is going to consume less fuel?? The one needing 4.0L worth, or over 50% more at 6.1L worth.

Now, thats not cut and dry. The smaller engine isn't always the more fuel efficient. But, with the right tuning, and using modern devices like variable timing and lift, you can get just as much power from a smaller engine. The 350Z and new Mustang GT are good examples of this. Both make 300hp, but one does it with a 3.5L V6, the other with a 4.6L V8. And, the Nissan gets a little bit better mileage. Not much, but it does, and that can help.

So, as I said before, specific output is a good stat. But, its hardly the big thing to worry about. It can help some things, and not others. So, while its a fun stat to talk about and mention. I don't think its that big of a deal.

Hilg

 

[Wolfe]

a chevy 427 with twice the power & 3-4 times the torque

hey, I drove a Mazda RX-8 once...great--Fantastic pwr-wt Ratio, horribley sluggish car though....it didnt even go very fast when I tached it to 9000 RPM! but, a great pwr/size ratio....183 ponies per liter!!! very fit & finished interior though.
I also beat one with my Grand Am---(very sad..it's a 4cyl with a bad pwr/size ratio
I love Japanese cars

WOO, you're awesome, you raced against an RX-8 driven by a guy that either didn't know how to drive, or wasn't racing you!! That's a great reason to hate any and all cars that come from an entire country!!

I love american-car fanboys...they love to over-generalize and base their facts on random street encounters...

If you think a car that can manage 0-60 in 6 seconds is sluggish, you're pretty jaded, man. Sure, that's poor by modern sportscar standards, (and the RX-8 overall is poor by modern sportscar standards) but it's nothing to sneeze at. I'd also like to see a stock 4-cylinder Grand Am manage that.

Oh, and you're on crack if you think the RX-8's power-to-weight ratio is "fantastic."

You missed my point that we were talking about. I WASN'T saying that 505hp from 7.0L is impressive. I WAS saying that getting 505hp from a normally aspirated small block LS engine from the factory is impressive. Like I said, the specific output of an engine is a good stat. But, it really doesn't mean much if the car doesn't do anything with it. Like your Celica example.

Hilg

Sorry, didn't realize. And yes, you're right, it is impressive to get that kind of power from such an "outdated" engine. Take my example, for example. With an old-school, small-block, pushrod, etc. engine, Chevy's gone and made an engine that's almost as efficient as Toyota's DOHC, VVT-equipped, modern engine.

I have yet to hear why it's good to have lots of power per liter, so if anyone can tell me why it's a good thing, I would be very greatful
i always thought weight of car & total power are great things to have.....but I can't for the life of me figure out why you need lots of power per liter....
P.S. 6-cylinders are generally heavy engines...aka Nissan 350Z
3400lbs? why? how? where? but it's a 2-seater...and it's small...

It's not a matter of "need," it's a matter of "which is more impressive, or better?"

Take the Viper and Exige 240R, for example. Both accelerate somewhat similarly (at sub-100mph speeds, anyway). The Viper does it by cramming a big, powerful engine under the hood, and the Exige does it by making the car as light as possible while still meeting crash safety standards.

I think that the Exige is more impressive, because it doesn't take as much effort to make a big honkin' engine as it does to keep a chassis trim and light.

The same goes with engines and specific output. For example, the GM ZZ572 crate engine, which makes 720 horses from 9.4 liters on racing fuel, compared to a BMW S14 4-cylinder, which makes 320+ horses from 2.5 liters on racing fuel. Both naturally-aspirated, of course.

If asked "which is more impressive?" I'd pick the BMW engine every time. Sure, the GM engine is beefier and torquier, but it still only manages to beat the Z06's engine by a few lb-ft/L. And the Z06's engine isn't using racing fuel.

On the other hand, with what you mentioned about the "need" for good specific-output. there is a point where low specific-output is just too low. For performance cars, I'd put this line somewhere around 50-60hp/L. For ordinary cars, maybe 30-40hp/L.

 

[LeadSlead#2]

V-6's are generally heavy compared to other sized engines....you see an engine's rated size is the size of the combustion chambers....not the actual total mass..perfect example..350Z...have you looked under the hood of one? it takes every possible square inch of the engine bay...it's quite wide---im sure you can find V-6's that are much lighter than some V-8's...but for their size they generally heavy

I mentioned the RX-8 as a point that 1st. unless you rev the living crap out of it and dump the clutch, your not going anywhere off the line---and with average joe smith behind the wheel, you'll almost never see the car go anywhere near it's potential---I know an RX-8 can beat a Grand Am...but average joe? very common it is he'll lose a full second off the line (hence running high 15's)

what makes you think I said power to weight ratio? I said pwr/size--I do believe 183 hp per liter is impressive--maybe you can let me know of some other cars with better?

well as for gas milage...V8's allow longer gears...which can correct any gas milage woes when compared to a 6cyl and a V8 with the same power generally makes a car faster than a 6cyl with that same power...say... A Nissan 35th anniv. and a Mustang Mach 1 -- Nissan
14.1 @ 101.8 ---Mustang -- 13.7 @ 105.7.....times by Road & Track---good example

by the way, I don't like Japanese cars in general for far more reasons than the RX-8...although I do have to admit, my brothers 350 is pretty sweet

 

[neanderthal]

while OHV> OHC> DOHC is true in terms of weight the reverse is usually true in terms of efficiency.

no one mentioned that.

 

[LeadSlead#2]

I hate OHC's either OHV's or DOHC's are better OHC's combine the lack of low-end grunt of DOHC's & the low-rpm peak of OHV's

 

[JNasty4G63]

V-6's are generally heavy compared to other sized engines

But, again your just making a generalization. So, just about any V6 is heavier than most any other engine???? Thats just silly. You didn't get my example earlier, did you??? Which engine do you think is bigger and heavier??? The DOHC V6 in a 350Z, or the DOHC V8 in a Cobra???? Both are DOHC, both have large top mounted intakes. But, by your assumption, a V6 is just huge, and probably heavier, right???

....you see an engine's rated size is the size of the combustion chambers....not the actual total mass..

Yes, thank you for the "Engine Basics 101" lesson. I think most people on this site understand that.

....perfect example..350Z...have you looked under the hood of one? it takes every possible square inch of the engine bay...it's quite wide---

Have you seen how big a 350Z is??? Its not a truck, or some big luxury car. Its a small sports car. I'm sure it DOES take up a good deal of the engine bay. Thats like saying the K20 in an RSX is huge because it takes up a good deal of the engine bay. Even a small-ish engine in a small car will take up a lot of space.

But, the V6 in a Z is no more wide than the V8 in a Vette. In fact, the V8 LS engines used by Chevy are 90* V-angle. The V6 VQ engines used by Nissan only have a 60* V-angle. So, if your measuring width, even with the taller heads used by the DOHC Nissan engine, I'm sure they're very similar. And, since both are all aluminum engines, even with more parts in the heads, I'd venture to say the VQ is close to, if not lighter than the LS.

....im sure you can find V-6's that are much lighter than some V-8's...but for their size they generally heavy

Again, heavy compared to what???? A Hummer H2 is heavy compared to a Civic. But, compared to something in its class, like a Tahoe, its about average. See what I mean??? I doubt many V6 engines are too much heavier than any other V6 engines of similar build. But, to just broadly generalize all V6 engines as heavy is just not correct.

Hilg

 

[iceburns288]

This thread has the most retarted arguments I've ever heard on a message board. Saying the S2k's engine weighs less than the Stang's V8 is a no-brainer. Yeah, I think it had something to do with your point, but it's kinda silly...

Engine configuration has little to do with how much it weighs relative to its size (density of it, I guess you could say). The only thing I can really point out is that any V-engine with less than a 180 degree angle would weigh more than a boxer or inline engine, but only VERY minutely. That's because there's the bit of metal you need to connect the two banks. Other than that, there's not really any difference in the density of the engine overall. The actual weight of the engine is up to the manufacturer. I'm sure an F1 V8/10 weighs nearly nothing, but that doesn't mean we can all say V10s are light for their size.

You really can't make generalizations when it comes to this stuff, because it's all up to the manufacturer as to how much their engine weighs. That means what kinds of materials they use, the displacement, the configuration (valves and cams etc). An all-aluminum V8 will probably weigh less than an old (old old) V6. Or somethin like that.

 

[Wolfe]

I mentioned the RX-8 as a point that 1st. unless you rev the living crap out of it and dump the clutch, your not going anywhere off the line---and with average joe smith behind the wheel, you'll almost never see the car go anywhere near it's potential---I know an RX-8 can beat a Grand Am...but average joe? very common it is he'll lose a full second off the line (hence running high 15's)

True, true, but ya know, the rotary's lack of low-end power means wheelspin-free launches every time....

what makes you think I said power to weight ratio? I said pwr/size--I do believe 183 hp per liter is impressive--maybe you can let me know of some other cars with better?

Right here:

hey, I drove a Mazda RX-8 once...great--Fantastic pwr-wt Ratio, horribley sluggish car though...

well as for gas milage...V8's allow longer gears...which can correct any gas milage woes when compared to a 6cyl and a V8 with the same power generally makes a car faster than a 6cyl with that same power...say... A Nissan 35th anniv. and a Mustang Mach 1 -- Nissan
14.1 @ 101.8 ---Mustang -- 13.7 @ 105.7.....times by Road & Track---good example

A V8 and 6-cylinder with equal power/torque figures are equally capable of accepting longer gears...

And your Z vs Mustang example is an argument about displacement and OHV/SOHC/DOHC, not engine configuration. The Mustang has more low-end grunt than the Z, which is likely the origin of the speed difference...

I hate OHC's either OHV's or DOHC's are better OHC's combine the lack of low-end grunt of DOHC's & the low-rpm peak of OHV's

Yes, but SOHC engines also mix the low-end grunt of OHV's with the high-rpm peak of DOHC.

This thread has the most retarted arguments I've ever heard on a message board. Saying the S2k's engine weighs less than the Stang's V8 is a no-brainer. Yeah, I think it had something to do with your point, but it's kinda silly...

Sarcasm.

@iceburns288's and JNasty4G63's comments on engine configurations and weight: 👍

 

[LeadSlead#2]

I do believe I said 6's are heavy for their size nasty...not heavier than 8's not the heaviest engines in the world--heavy for size--you still don't read
& since you like to say the 350's small--maybe you can enlighten us as to why the thing weighs 3400lbs?

didnt see the pwr/wt in what you quoted earlier, wolfe i'll hope next time you'll assume I typed wrong & am talking about what everyone else is power per liter
also show me the NA-6 & NA-8 that have the same HP & torque, Please, show me the 6cyl with the same torque as a V8...you can probly find hp, but good luck with the torque

last & least, anyone, & I do mean anyone, name a good SOHC engine

 

[retsmah]

It could be because it's just an overweight car... BMW does all sorts of crazy lightening stuff on the 6 series engine, and it still turns out to be like 2 tons or something.

 

[LeadSlead#2]

you mean it's just fat & needs to go diet?

 

[super cirrus]

I do believe I said 6's are heavy for their size nasty...not heavier than 8's not the heaviest engines in the world--heavy for size--you still don't read
& since you like to say the 350's small--maybe you can enlighten us as to why the thing weighs 3400lbs?

didnt see the pwr/wt in what you quoted earlier, wolfe i'll hope next time you'll assume I typed wrong & am talking about what everyone else is power per liter
also show me the NA-6 & NA-8 that have the same HP & torque, Please, show me the 6cyl with the same torque as a V8...you can probly find hp, but good luck with the torque

last & least, anyone, & I do mean anyone, name a good SOHC engine

The 350z shares it's platform with a variety of cars AND trucks/suvs in Nissan's line up. because of that, extra strong (aka heavier) parts are used so that its trucks will have sufficient stenght for towing, hauling, etc at the expenses of added weight for the cars that also share the platform.

Also, the "Please, show me the 6cyl with the same torque as a V8" probably isn't gonna happen, because most v8's are generally larger than v6's.

And a good sohc engine, i'd say the 4.6 in the new mustangs. 300 hp on regular pump gas, and they are fairly stout from what i've heard.

 

[retsmah]

you mean it's just fat & needs to go diet?

Possibly... I mean, have you seen one? They look fat.

I don't see why a V6 would be particularly heavy... it's the same thing as a V8, with two less cylinders.

 

[JNasty4G63]

Firstly, and I don't mean this in a mean or harsh way. But, you need to just understand that I'm just discussing things here. I don't get on this forum to blab and blindly argue or make fun of people. I've said a lot of things that you have taken very much the wrong way, or as a joke at you. So, forget all that. I'm just talking cars. Not trying to prove who knows more. OK??? Get it now???

I do believe I said 6's are heavy for their size nasty...not heavier than 8's not the heaviest engines in the world--heavy for size--you still don't read

No, I read just fine still. And again, I believe you're not comparing apples to apples. Most all production car V6 engines used today are DOHC, or at least SOHC. So, aside from any rarities, most all V6 engines, whether it be the 3.5L used in the Honda Ridgeline, the 3.0L used in the Ford Fusion, or the 3.5L used in the Z. They are all probably within 25-30lbs of each other. There just isn't that much that they can differ on, so they will all be about the same weight.

Now, a V6 against other engine configurations??? Who knows. That was why I brought up my H2 comparrisons earlier. An H2 (Nissan VQ35) is a big ass monster compared to a Cobalt (Honda K20C). But, when you compare that H2 (VQ35) to a similar car, like the Tahoe (Honda J32A), its not so big. So, thats why I was saying that comparing one engine style to another and talking about weight is kind of silly. Dis-similar styles will always differ pretty good on weight. But, comparing similar styles, the differences will be very little.

.....& since you like to say the 350's small--maybe you can enlighten us as to why the thing weighs 3400lbs?

I never said light. I just said that its a small vehicle, as in size. I've driven a friends on many occasions. Light?? No. But smaller than a good number of cars out there??? Sure. And, as was said before me, the Nissan FM chassis is used in everything from the Z to the G35 to the M45 to the Murano. When you make a chassis accept that many styles of a car, it will inherently have some compromises.

The Corvette on the other hand, which is size-wise very similar to the Z, only has one car on that chassis. No other configurations are needed. And, no, I don't consider the XLR a different car. That just a Caddy Vette, its the same car. Where-as, Nissan has made the chassis accept everything from a 2-seat roadster, to a 4-door V8 sedan, all the way to a sporty "SUV-ish" thing. Thats why its a little heavier than other cars its style.

.....last & least, anyone, & I do mean anyone, name a good SOHC engine

How about the 3.5L SOHC V6 used in the Acura RL??? It makes 290 or 300hp, depending on your measurements (SAE debacle). Either way, that engine is only SOHC, and only a V6, yet it developes basically 300hp, and can get 18/26mpg mileage in a 4000lb+ car. I personally think that qualifys as a good SOHC engine.

Hilg

 

[iceburns288]

Sarcasm.

Ok, good Carry on then!

Yeah, pretty much the Z hung out with Oprah a bit too much and gained a bit too much weight in development. Sadly, it really could have weighed 250 pounds less I bet.

I also found out Alfa made an inline-8 back in the day. Wow!

 

[Elegy]

And, no, I don't consider the XLR a different car. That just a Caddy Vette, its the same car.

I have to disagree with you here. It's built on the same bones, but it doesn't have the same organs, if you will. Suspension's different, tranny's different, engine's different...that alone should give it a different driving feel at the very least.

 

[LeadSlead#2]

slim-fast for the 350!!! hoo--rah!!
your probly right jnasty, cause most 8's are ohv--but still says with the V8 you don't need the heavy techno stuff to get more power---therefore, in my opinion, better

 

[Wolfe]

didnt see the pwr/wt in what you quoted earlier, wolfe i'll hope next time you'll assume I typed wrong & am talking about what everyone else is power per liter

I hope you don't expect me to take the blame for your typo. Power/weight is a common value in evaluating a car, and I simply assumed you were making a comment about that particular stat. You mentioned power/liter later in that same post, so mentioning it the first time would have made the post somewhat redundant.

You made a mistake, and I made a mistake.

also show me the NA-6 & NA-8 that have the same HP & torque, Please, show me the 6cyl with the same torque as a V8...you can probly find hp, but good luck with the torque

1965 Aston Martin DB6 -- 4.0L Inline-6, naturally aspirated. 282bhp, 273lbft
2003 2003 Pontiac Bonneville GXP -- 4.5L V8, naturally aspirated. 275bhp, 221lbft

Bigger, newer, and yet it produces a significantly smaller amount of torque...

The figures aren't identical, but with the range now having been expanded to include 6-cylinders with more torque than V8s, I believe the possibility of same-hp same-torque 6- and 8-cylinder engines has been proven.

last & least, anyone, & I do mean anyone, name a good SOHC engine

According to the lists at this Wikipedia article, SOHC engines have won "10 Best Engines" awards from Ward's AutoWorld magazine, including the Ford 4.6 L V8 Modular SOHC, DaimlerChrysler 5.0 L V8 SOHC, Ford 5.4 L V8 Modular SOHC, and DaimlerChrysler 3.2 L V6 SOHC. And those are only from the last 10 years.

 

[JNasty4G63]

I have to disagree with you here. It's built on the same bones, but it doesn't have the same organs, if you will. Suspension's different, tranny's different, engine's different...that alone should give it a different driving feel at the very least.

See, I guess we just see it different then. I understand that some ancillary bits and pieces are different. But, the core car is C6. Yes, it has a Caddy engine and trans. And, it rides like a Caddy, not a Vette. But to me, its like the 350Z and G35 Coupe. Even though the differ in chassis length, seating arangement, suspension tuning, and other minor bits, the G35 Coupe is still just a fluffed up 350Z in my book. Hell, almost every single aftermarket part is the same. Now, because of engine differences with the XLR and C6, that won't be the exact same case. But they do share a LOT of stuff. So, yes as you said, they are not EXACTLY the same. But to me, its close enough.

Hilg

 

[LeadSlead#2]

the 2003 Bonneville GXP has a supercharged V-6 just like Grand Prix's
thanks for coming out---& they (the V-6's) have more torque than that

Edit::actually--the Bonneville Premium model is a SSEI - not a GXP - your chances of a GXP even existing are slim to none

 

[JNasty4G63]

I think he might have meant the 2004 Bonneville. It was available as GXP, and did have a V8, but his specs were a little off. It was a 4.6L Northstar, shared with the Caddy Seville an Eldorado, not a 4.5L as he said. Also, it did make 275hp, that was right. But, it made 300lb/ft, not 221 like he listed. So, his comparison didn't work.

Also, there is no Bonneville anymore. The 2005 model year was the last year it was available. And, the GXP was the top model in those last 2 years. Before that though, your right, the SSEi was the top. But now, the Grand Prix has taken over the spot of the Bonneville, and its top model is also the GXP. But now, it has the 5.3L V8 with 305hp and 325lb-ft thats used in the SS Impala and SS Monte Carlo.

Hilg

 

[LeadSlead#2]

it's a shame too...the Bonneville was the nicest big sedan Pontiac ever made

EDIT: by the way, thought I should mention, I just saw a brand-new 05 Bonneville SSEI on the road last week

 

[JNasty4G63]

EDIT: by the way, thought I should mention, I just saw a brand-new 05 Bonneville SSEI on the road last week

Either wasn't an '05, or it wasn't an SSEi. In '04 and '05, the model lineup was SE, SLE, and GXP. They didn't look any different than the '03, so you might have just seen a nice looking '03 SSEi. Because, they didn't make the SSEi models after '03.

Hilg