The truth about American's Horsepower

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your guys are all correct....I would be stupid to boost a Z06....good point
i'm sure it's stupid to boost a viper too, right?
just because maybe somebody you saw blew one up doesnt mean they all will...for all you know he could have not set his nitrous up correctly...& there's so many variables there it's completley Ignorant to assume they'll all blow up---after all Ford isn't the only company in the world that makes engines you can increase power on without changing internals

P.S. if someone(without power shifting) could run an all stock 405hp 2003 Z06 to a 12.09......I'm sure it's just a matter of time till you see very low 11's for a new one
 
LeadSlead#2
your guys are all correct....I would be stupid to boost a Z06....good point
i'm sure it's stupid to boost a viper too, right?
nope
just because maybe somebody you saw blew one up doesnt mean they all will...for all you know he could have not set his nitrous up correctly
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Because I know, when I'm spending 75,000 on a car..I'm going to auto zone and getting a NX kit and having my neighbors son install it because he did it on his civic... 💡

...& there's so many variables there it's completley Ignorant to assume they'll all blow up
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Your right...Except that...when the car it was racing had it's nitrous tuned by the same company..and instead of a 100shot..
had a 200 shot..
and spanked the z06... because why?
the z06 blew 2 pistons
---Ls1 Vs Ls7--

---after all Ford isn't the only company in the world that makes engines you can increase power on without changing internals
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You're absolutely right..but....An engine with rod/stroke so long notching of the pan was needed for it to actually turn over and has rediculously high engine speeds...and a 11+ compression ratio..is an engine built off of the N/A Racing motor(meaning it's not an engine that was ever designed for forced induction) says otherwise....
I mean if all the companies in the world lingenfelter..the guys who make vette's that make S7's look like biznatches....chose to ditch the Ls7 in favor of an LS6 based engine...that says something..

P.S. if someone(without power shifting) could run an all stock 405hp 2003 Z06 to a 12.09......I'm sure it's just a matter of time till you see very low 11's for a new one
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P.P.S. If a magazine can get a 11.2 out of a Ford GT...I'm sure it's a matter of time till you see even lower 11's for the GT.
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you seem to like ls1's....maybe you should try an iron-block lt-1---still holds the record for fastest street-legal drag car...well ahead of the ls-1
regardles..comparing the ls-7 to a slightly older engine right now in uncredible. why? because nobody's had the time to really work on it & get proper tuning, etc...as the ls-1 has been out--(ls-6 only has diff intake manifold than ls-1) and has had many years for people to work on it & try everything (assuming everyone realizes every new car that gets tuned in the aftermarket gets blown up..a lot) maybe you should wait a year or two & see if people don't get them much faster without changing internals---or jump to conclusions & look away in a few years....doesnt matter much to me
 
LeadSlead#2
you seem to like ls1's....maybe you should try an iron-block lt-1---still holds the record for fastest street-legal drag car...well ahead of the ls-1
regardles..comparing the ls-7 to a slightly older engine right now in uncredible. why? because nobody's had the time to really work on it & get proper tuning, etc...as the ls-1 has been out--(ls-6 only has diff intake manifold than ls-1) and has had many years for people to work on it & try everything (assuming everyone realizes every new car that gets tuned in the aftermarket gets blown up..a lot) maybe you should wait a year or two & see if people don't get them much faster without changing internals---or jump to conclusions & look away in a few years....doesnt matter much to me
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Or maybe you could accept the fact that it's a 8000RPM 11:0 compression V8 small block at it's displacement limits with a rod/stroke ratio like the Nissan Sentra Spec V, and then once i'm right I laugh in your face and you deny saying anything you just said.....

and what in gods name does the LT1 have to do with anything..I don't care about that engine..I really dont.
 
8000 rpm? and your gonna laugh in my face?
:lol: :lol: :lol: try 7 big guy.....and peak power is at 6300
 
it's called exageration....If you didn't notice I used alot of similie's there, so it shoulda kinda hinted that..

but I could have said...
4930280438290482380rpm...... then you might have caught on
 
I'll just toss in my 2¢.

I'd rather have the highest output per litre, then tons of output. If I were to go with that, its the S2000 on my wishlist.
 
toyomatt84
I'll just toss in my 2¢.

I'd rather have the highest output per litre, then tons of output. If I were to go with that, its the S2000 on my wishlist.
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I definitely agree, though there are cars other than the S2000 that have impressive specific outputs... :)

It seems american manufacturers have yet to get the hang of specific output...is there any american naturally-aspirated engine that has done 100hp/L or better? :confused:
 
Maybe the Americans have realized that specific output is fairly meaningless?

The Corvette engine is powerful, cheap, compact & low. I'd really like to see it's weight compaired to some other engines too... more displacement doesn't necessarily mean a bigger or heavier engine.

I just don't see why specific output would be a goal to design towards with your engine. It kinda is if you are doing something in a class where displacement is limited, but really it's just a roundabout way of saying you want the engine to make more power.
 
Wolfe2x7
I definitely agree, though there are cars other than the S2000 that have impressive specific outputs... :)

It seems american manufacturers have yet to get the hang of specific output...is there any american naturally-aspirated engine that has done 100hp/L or better? :confused:
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No but there are plenty of supercharged/turboed ones, the STS-V, Cobalt SS makes more then 100hp/L and I think the SRT-4 makes 100hp/L or around it.

But a lot of magazines and testers agree that the STS-V supercharged 4.4L engine is one of the best engines out there...hell there is some poster in the office that has it on it.

But N/A or F/I it doesn't matter, just like displacement. All displacement is, is a marketing tool anyways.
 
toyomatt84
I'll just toss in my 2¢.

I'd rather have the highest output per litre, then tons of output. If I were to go with that, its the S2000 on my wishlist.
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Ummm ... why ? Like Hamster just said, it doesn't make any sense unless displacement is limited by a regulatory body (which it isn't) ...

Does a high specific output make the engine any more fuel efficient ? No ...
Does it mean that it's smaller ? No ...
Does it mean it's lighter ? No ...
Does it make it any more reliable ? No ...

In fact, what you usually get is an engine that makes peak power at a very high engine speed, with very little power at low engine speeds. This makes it very sluggish as a daily driver (having driven the S2000, I can actually attest to this).
 
american companies build cars so that normal people can drive them easily...you'll likely never see an american car with this high of a ratio without boost.....plus most people care about total power far more than tiny motors making gobs of power
 
I threw in the nitrous on zo6/gt thing for the reason that driftster later pointed out.

It is painful to think of someone spending that cash on a great car only to throw on a nitrous kit.

Why do all you people want to diss the vette? It went from the euro/tvr arguement to the "the gt is better". The ford gt may be better but it also costs twice as much.

Edit: well not "All you people" but rather a fervent few.
 
Yeah I know they are going high, I just didn't say anything about it because I knew someone would point out "hey if your willing to order and sit on your ass forever you might get one for msrp". Whether they are going for $150k or $200k really doesn't affect my point either.
 
Maybe the Americans have realized that specific output is fairly meaningless?
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I concur; hp/liter doesn't really mean anything unless you're trying to conform to a spec or formula. Doesn't stop a lot of people from using it to put down the Z06 and other American cars, however.
 
Specific output can make a difference though. Think about it this way. With the 350Z, you have a car with a small-ish 3.5L V6 engine putting out 300hp. Not just 5 years or so ago, Ford was selling the Mustang Cobra with a 4.6L V8 engine putting out 320hp. So, by getting a lot of power out of a small displacement V6, they saved that much weight over cars that use big V8.

Now, I agree, the stat itself is kind of irrelevant. Comparing one car's output/L to another is kind of silly. But, if you think about how much it can help in circumstances like I mentioned, it makes more sense. Getting the most you can out of the smaller engine can save the weight of having to go to a larger engine.

Hilg
 
In terms of physical size:displacement ...

OHV < SOHC < DOHC

Meaning that, for a given displacement, the OHV engine will usually be the smallest physically, whereas the DOHC will usually be the largest ...

Weight, obviously, is dependent on many factors, so one cannot just assume that a smaller displacement engine will weigh less ...
 
Jmac279
.....so one cannot just assume that a smaller displacement engine will weigh less
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And, I didn't do that. Obviously, you can't just say that more displacement is physically larger and heavier. But, given most modern engines, its safe to say that most V6 engines weigh less than most V8 engines. So, if you can get good power out of a smaller V6, that can save weight. So, more hp/L can help. Thats all.

Hilg
 
True, it can help, but a lot of people seem to believe it's a very critical thing and that a low hp/displacement ratio is something worth judging a car negatively over.

The reason this bothers me is that the Z06 should be especially immune to that line of thought; despite having an engine that displaces a whole liter more than the base C6, the Z06 is FAR lighter than its cousin overall.
 
Elegy
.....despite having an engine that displaces a whole liter more than the base C6, the Z06 is FAR lighter than its cousin overall.
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Its the same basic block, just with bigger bores and longer stroke. So, the engine size is physically no different. And your "FAR lighter" statement measures out to 47lbs. Its lighter, but nothing to get excited about. Put a suitcase or something like that in back, and its a dead heat weight-wise. Don't get me wrong. Its nice to lose 47lbs, all while gaining 100hp, but its not that dramatic.

Hilg
 
47lbs is a LOT when you consider how little an engine weighs compared to the whole car!
 
But it wasn't the engine that dropped 47lbs. It was the entire curb weight of the car. If the engine itself did actually lose 47lbs, then I'd for sure say that was a great acomplishment. But, it didn't, so I'm not.

Hilg
 
IIRC, there's a bit of difference in the engine materials as well.

Still, the point stands. Regardless of the number, it is lighter and therefore voids the weight-related side of the hp/liter argument.

And so, we are left with the other half of that argument...that is, whether or not the engine should be making more raw power than it is for its displacement. Personally, I point to a common phrase used by MMORPG devs: "working as intended". I don't feel compelled not to believe that the engine is producing precisely the amount of power the makers want.
 
Elegy
IIRC, there's a bit of difference in the engine materials as well.
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Sure, but we aren't talking huge differences. The LS7 has titanium con-rods and valves, which are a good deal lighter than normal. But, we're talking like percentages of a pound, total for those parts. And, when you factor in the heavier dry-sump oiling system and extra oil coolers that it has, I'd venture to say the LS6 and LS7 are very close in weight.
Elegy
Still, the point stands. Regardless of the number, it is lighter and therefore voids the weight-related side of the hp/liter argument.
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No, it doesn't void it, but it does kind of show what I was talking about before. By using a similarly sized and weighted engine that makes lots of power over the stand V8, the didn't have to go up to a V10 or V12 to get the power they wanted. That was where I was saying that specific output can help a lot.

The Vette did it in a different way. Instead of getting more power out of the 6.0L, they just gave it more capacity, and thus more power. So, the specific output didn't change much. But, getting that much power from an engine that size is impressive. Specific output is a good measure of a lot of things. But, its not the be-all end-all number we should worry about.

Hilg
 
No, it doesn't void it, but it does kind of show what I was talking about before. By using a similarly sized and weighted engine that makes lots of power over the stand V8, the didn't have to go up to a V10 or V12 to get the power they wanted. That was where I was saying that specific output can help a lot.
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That's a good point; I guess I'm too used to hearing this argument used AGAINST the Z06 rather than in its favor. From the negative side, though, it does void that part of it.

The Vette did it in a different way. Instead of getting more power out of the 6.0L, they just gave it more capacity, and thus more power. So, the specific output didn't change much. But, getting that much power from an engine that size is impressive. Specific output is a good measure of a lot of things. But, its not the be-all end-all number we should worry about.
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I wish more people shared this view. 👍 Still, a lot of people actually say the opposite; that the power it's producing for its displacement is unimpressive.
 
LeadSlead#2
american companies build cars so that normal people can drive them easily...you'll likely never see an american car with this high of a ratio without boost.....plus most people care about total power far more than tiny motors making gobs of power
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The other complaints here of a lack of torque at lower rpms would be perfect for these "normal people" you speak of. Also, we aren't discussing whether or not other people care about it, we're discussing whether we care about it, and the reasons why. Furthermore, I wouldn't call the Enzo's 6.0L 650-horse V12 "tiny."

Jmac279
In terms of physical size:displacement ...

OHV < SOHC < DOHC

Meaning that, for a given displacement, the OHV engine will usually be the smallest physically, whereas the DOHC will usually be the largest ...

Weight, obviously, is dependent on many factors, so one cannot just assume that a smaller displacement engine will weigh less ...
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You make a good argument, but I'm somewhat doubtful that the 2000 Honda S2000's 2.0L 240-horse 4-cylinder is almost the same size as the 2000 Ford Mustang GT's 4.6L 260-horse V8... :indiff:

JNasty4G63
But, getting that much power from an engine that size is impressive.
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C6 Z06, 500-horse 7.0L = 71bhp/L
ZZT230 Celica GT, 140-horse 1.8L = 77bhp/L

... 💡

Anyway, one of the main reasons why I prefer high-specific-output is this -- anyone can add more displacement. Making good use of it, especially without resorting to forced induction, is more impressive.

I mean, don't get me wrong -- low end power is good, and requires displacement, but to dismiss 100+hp/L engines as pointless, worthless, or unimpressive? :odd:
 
Jmac279
Ummm ... why ? Like Hamster just said, it doesn't make any sense unless displacement is limited by a regulatory body (which it isn't) ...

Does a high specific output make the engine any more fuel efficient ? No ...
Does it mean that it's smaller ? No ...
Does it mean it's lighter ? No ...
Does it make it any more reliable ? No ...

In fact, what you usually get is an engine that makes peak power at a very high engine speed, with very little power at low engine speeds. This makes it very sluggish as a daily driver (having driven the S2000, I can actually attest to this).
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....Sluggish?!?! Are you nuts? I think you've never driven an S2000, or atleast never compared it to typical sports cars in the same price range. Sure it's sluggish... when you compare it to a Mclaren...

I've track driven the S2k, and by no means is it "sluggish". Even if you include daily driving, that car isn't "sluggish". You need to clear your facts, bud.

All your generalities may be true, considering you're taking the engine market as a whole... but when you look at what I've posted and put your generalities to test with it, you're about 10% correct.

Is the S2k fuel efficient...yes
Is the S2k engine smaller...yes
Is the S2k engine lighter...yes
Is the S2k engine reliable...yes

And, like I mentioned in the beginning of my last post, it was "my 2¢".
 
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