The Ultimate Street Car Challenge (Restarted)

Discussion in 'GT4 Race Reports' started by Jetboy., Apr 11, 2005.

  1. FWA2500

    FWA2500

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    i ran a 1:32.xx in the TT touring car....but thats a touring car....lol
     
  2. Jetboy.

    Jetboy.

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    Citi d'Aria​


    One would never believe the changes that occurred upon this test. Cars that were the best, failed miserably..... The laggers of our collective group rally up to the top 10. :nervous:



    1. Saleen S7
    1'30.233

    2. Merc-Benz SLR
    1'31.861

    3. AC 427 S/C
    1'33.416

    4. Corvette ZO6
    1'34.838

    5. Pontiac GTO
    1'35.746

    6. Audi LeMans
    1'35.931

    7. Callaway C12
    1'36.373

    8. BMW M3 GTR
    1'36.491

    9. Mustang SVT Cobra
    1'36.536

    10. AM Vanquish
    1'36.663

    11. Monaro CV8
    1'36.288

    12. Merc-Benz CLK55 AMG
    1'36.866

    13. Ford GT
    1'36.872

    14. TVR T350C
    1'37.053

    15. WRX STi
    1'37.335

    16. Zonda C12S
    1'37.485

    17. Jaguar XK-R
    1'37.851

    18. RX-7 Spirit R
    1'39.095

    19. FPV GT
    1'39.309

    20. Lotus Esprit
    1'39.323

    21. Mitsu Evo VIII MR
    1'39.421

    22. Speed 12
    1'40.756

    23. Ruf RGT
    1'41.201

    24. NSX-R
    1'42.344

    25. 350Z
    1'43.104

    26. Viper SRT-10
    1'46.162




    Driver's Notes

    First of all, this test was conducted in A-spec mode. Why? The Citi cannot run B-spec mode (and maybe for good reason...) It also was inevitable: The Speed 12 was de-throned, no less by the Saleen S7. The Cerbera was replaced by the T350C (in case you have not noticed), and given its performance, it will take over the Cerbera's spot from now on. The results can be described as erratic as best, especially compared to previous tests. The Viper is a prime example of this: it was beaten by a 350Z--to the tune of 3 seconds. Apparently, the Citi does not favor the extremely powerful. :thoughtful:

    Next up: Nurburgring.

    Jetboy
     
  3. Studentdriver

    Studentdriver

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    Either the time for the Monaro should be 1:37.288, or it should be in seventh place.
     
  4. Eric.

    Eric. Premium

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    How in the world did the 350Z beat the SRT-10?! I'm thinking the loss of traction caused most the leading cars to drop in this test. I assume you are using traction control?

    Oh, just so you know, the Speed 12 should win on Nurburgring. According to Live4Speed, the only car that comes close is the ZZII, but that is considered a race car. The reason I say "should" is because you are using B-spec, and you never know what cars it will decide to favor. Yours liked the 12 last time, though. :cheers:
     
  5. _kamikazefly_

    _kamikazefly_

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    423
    ehhhhhh, what on earth happend there, i seriously did not expect the result, vanquish faster then RGT, GTO in 5th position...........................my head hurts :sick:

    and the cursed AC, that moster should not be there, it should be near last, that car should spin its wheels in third, so im guessing it should suffer in monaco.......but b-spec, hmmmm, u got one good STIG :)
     
  6. RC45

    RC45 (Banned)

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    That's because the Callaway C12 is slower than the Z06 - in acceleration - but does have a higher top end.

    It is a 1999/2000 model based off the C5 Coupe - weighing in at 3400lbs and only putting down 50 more hp than the 2001 385hp Z06. And since the Z06 weighs in at 3100lbs and is more aggresively geared it is no surprise.

    But just so everyone does understand, the performance of cars in the game MUST be taken with a grain of salt.

    Just basing the results of the Z06 on it's real life counterpart (which I have been daily driving dor 50,000 miles now) the 0-60 and 1/4mile results are closish to real world numbers - but the top speed is way off.

    A stock Z06 will pull 174mph flat out, in 5th gear at 6600rpm - shifting to 6th will have your speed drop by about 10mph or more as the reality of 175mph air resistance make themselves felt on the power and extremely tall double over drive 6th gear.

    So the 189mph number is just not realistic for a stock car - even for the 405hp 2002 and newer car.

    With that bit of reality check in place, view any results you get in GT4 with a grain of salt.

    :)

    None the less, still a nice excercise that was completed.
     
  7. FuryX21

    FuryX21

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    755
    Me thinks the Speed 12 should not have placed first in Monaco.
     
  8. Jetboy.

    Jetboy.

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    Oh man.... Sorry you guys, for not answering for a couple of days.... School takes about 13 hours of my day (because of track). I can't answer stuff at school because this site is banninated. In fact, just yesterday, I was politely told to get off the main site or else I would be kicked off the system for the rest of school. Just because the only was to see this place is through a proxy tunnel. :irked:

    Oh well, sod it. Some updates: The Nur test is taking a longer time than expected, but I have about 7 cars left to test. Don't expect too many suprises.




    By the way, after the Nur is done... then what?
     
  9. Jetboy.

    Jetboy.

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    Nurburgring Nordschleife​



    13 miles, 170+ corners. Easily the most daunting race track ever created. Predictions slated the Speed 12 as once again, top dog. Was there any doubts? :lol:


    1. TVR cerbera Speed 12
    7'08.186

    2. Ford GT
    7'13.618

    3.LeMans Quattro
    7'13.658

    4. Zonda C12
    7'13.819

    5. Saleen S7
    7'15.906

    6. SLR McLaren
    7'17.423

    7. Corvette ZO6
    7'30.771

    8. M3 GTR
    7'32.188

    9. Viper SRT-10
    7'32.378

    10. Callaway C12
    7'33.018

    11. Jaguar XK-R
    7'34.560

    12. AC 427
    7'36.662

    13. AM Vanquish
    7'36.686

    14. Pontiac GTO
    7'37.965

    15. Mustang SVT
    7'42.477

    16. Ruf RGT
    7'46.107

    17. CLK 55 AMG
    7'50.712

    18. NSX-R
    7'54.658

    19. TVR T350c
    7'54.928


    First of all: I would like to formally apologize for just disappearing. Stuff kinda got in the way...

    One may notice a slight difference from previous tests; a shortage in our field of cars. Face it, none of the other vehicles would have even came close, especially when there is a 13 second difference between 6th and 7th alone. I do not believe this is the very end of the test, unless you guys kind of let it fade into obscurity again... :tdown:


    The suggestion box is wide-open for the next event. Make the most of it.
     
  10. DuckRacer

    DuckRacer Premium

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    Well, what do YOU want to do? If it was me, I'd test the current cars on Seattle, Circuit de la Sarthe I, Infineon, or Suzuka.

    BTW, this is one of the best threads I've read. It would be a shame to see this thread die.

    Duck7892
     
  11. MailMan

    MailMan

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    59
    Great read indeed.
    Since you left out a number of cars and don't yet know how to continue, what about adding a few cars? Like some underdogs, for example the Spyker C8, AM DB9, Cizeta V16T, Corvette ZR-1 and for fun maybe a tuner car like the Amuse s2000 GT1.
     
  12. Jetboy.

    Jetboy.

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    Thank you for the positive feedback, :tup: Believe me, I don't want this to die, either. Infineon doesn't sound too bad.... I don't believe my B-speccie would handle Suzuka too well and LeMans is too oriented towards the "super crowd."


    Not to shoot any of your ideas down, but 1.) the Spyker sucks. 2.)so does the Cizetta. 3.) Have a Vanquish in the running. 4.)Have a ZO6.
    On the other hand, I do like the Tuner Car idea. Maybe a class refresh is in order, such as "Tuner Cars" or "Muscle Cars" classes are appropriate to bring some other people in to read this once again.
     
  13. JTSnooks

    JTSnooks

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    1,436
    Excellent job. Only thing that annoys me is how fast they made the GT. It's good, but nowhere near that good. To post some times from Motor Trend, they compared a Viper SRT-10 and a Ford GT head to head, and here are some of the numbers:

    0-60:
    Ford GT - 3.6
    Dodge Viper - 3.9

    1/4 mile:
    GT - 11.78@124.31
    Viper - 11.77@123.63

    Braking 60-0:
    GT - 111ft
    Viper - 97ft!

    600ft slalom:
    GT - 71.5mph
    Viper - 70.4mph

    GT - 2, Viper - 2. Looks like a tie to me! The GT is waaaay overrated in GT. Why? My guess is because Kaz-san owns one and seems to be very proud of it, as he's mentioned it in multiple interviews. However, the times aren't too far off from reality, and with a perfect run, perhaps they could be even closer. Oh, by the way, the Viper has pretty much the best brakes of any production car ever tested by MT. Less than 100ft from 60 is almost unheard of. Only car I've seen before that did it was...well...the Viper in 99. I think that one was in C&D. Here's the link: http://motortrend.com/roadtests/coupe/112_0401_vipandgt/index5.html

    Oh yeah, of note is the axle ratio of both cars. 3.07 for the Viper and 3.36 for the GT. Stick a 3.36 in the Viper and I bet the Viper would be even farther ahead at the quarter.
     
  14. clittle

    clittle

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    29
    Really great read this. Have been enjoying it.

    So you've done a couple of street circuits, and mamoth run (hehe) and the twist and turns in the town... hmmm What could come next...

    This may not be too popular, but how about running on the beginners course (or driving park courses)... it's tight and twisty and could certainly make for some interesting results, there's no super slow corners... hmmm
     
  15. ving

    ving

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    5,716
    great read man!
    keep it up
    keep tuner cars out of it tho.

    the beginners course would actually be an ok idea me thinks :)
     
  16. Jetboy.

    Jetboy.

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    Okay. Next two planned events: Infineon Sports Car Course, then Beginner Course. After those two, I may quit the Super Class and begin the Muscle Car class, unless you guys object.

    BTW, thanks for the appreciation for my work ving and clittle. It's guys like you that keep this going. :)
     
  17. Spottedlaurel

    Spottedlaurel

    Messages:
    57
    Keep going! I'll be very interested to see how the muscle cars perform if you do that.

    As I like older cars, I'm currently doing something similar with pre-1980 stuff plus some selected low-powered newer cars. Left muscle cars out for the moment as my round one is at Tsukuba; they might join in when I move onto the next venue (probably Trial Mountain for nostalgic reasons). I'm A-speccing it as I enjoy the feel of different cars, so Tsukuba was good as you can turn a few laps there fairly quickly even in something slow like a Fiat 500.

    I'll whittle out some of the slower/less interesting to drive cars as I move on. However, right now it's proving interesting to see how cars from different eras and with varying drivetrains, power, weight etc end up pulling such similar times.

    I'm keeping tuning and settings out of it and running everything stock, other than turning driver aids off.
     
  18. Jetboy.

    Jetboy.

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    Okay, this may be the plan as far as the next iteration of the UMCC (Ultimate Muscle Car Challenge.) :

    0-60 Times
    Quarter Mile Times
    Hong Kong Trials
    Seattle Trials
    Infineon Trials
    Seoul Trials
    New York Trials.


    Some upcoming stuff. Top Speed is dropped from the regimine of tests because, well, they are muscle cars. None of them go over 140; most hit 137. The vehicles by the names of Buick Special, Shelby Cobra, or its AC 427 deriative will not be used.

    Current entry list.

    Buick GNX
    Chevrolet Camaro 350 SS
    Chevrolet Chevelle SS 454
    Chevrolet Corvette 350 Stingray and 327 Sting Ray
    Chevrolet Camaro IROC-Z concept
    Dodge Charger R/T
    Dodge Charger Super Bee
    Plymouth Superbird
    Plymouth Cuda
    Shelby GT350
    Mercury Cougar XR-7
    GTO


    I might add a few more once I can devote more time to the idea and the current USCC is through. Anyone else with suggestions for tracks would be greatly appreciated.
     
  19. Studentdriver

    Studentdriver

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    I would drop the IROC, as it is far inferior to the other (actual) muscle cars. Of course, I haven't used any of these in a while, so w/e.
     
  20. 1989therat

    1989therat

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    717
    My bets on the 350 Corvette..but what do I know?Either that or the Chevelle 454. Either way a Chevy will prevail...
     
  21. ving

    ving

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    5,716
    looks like a nice list. :)

    cant really pic a result from that. cant wait to see it tho.

    wish i had more time to play!
     
  22. Jetboy.

    Jetboy.

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    Infineon Sportscar Course

    1. Saleen S7
    1'37.101

    2. Corvette ZO6
    1'38.981

    3. Ford GT
    1'39.255

    4. Speed 12
    1'39.661

    5. Zonda C12S
    1'40.125

    6. AC 427
    1'40.667

    7. Audi LeMans
    1'40.883

    8. Vanquish
    1'40.981

    9. SLR McLaren
    1'41.441

    10. M3 GTR
    1'41.639

    11. GTO
    1'42.273

    12. TVR T350c
    1'43.062

    13. Viper SRT-10
    1'43.257

    14. NSX-R
    1'43.377

    15. FPV GT
    1'44.285

    16. RGT
    1'45.670

    17. Jaguar XK-R
    1'46.847

    18. Esprit V8
    1'48.051

    19. Evo VIII MR
    1'50.604

    20. WRX STi
    1'50.716




    Nice mix in the results, especially with the "poor man's supercar" coming in second. I believe my B-speccie is in with Saleen, now. :lol:


    Next up: Beginner's Course




    Jetboy
     
  23. Spottedlaurel

    Spottedlaurel

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    Jetboy, are you going to provide some sort of conclusion to the USCC? Who got most firsts, that sort of thing? Perhaps give points to the first ten, say, to give an overall ranking? Save wading through 5 pages of posts.....

    So as not to make it a sterile numbers exercise alone, maybe give us your personal critique of the event too?
     
  24. Jetboy.

    Jetboy.

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    Actually, yes, I was going to write a conclusion to the events, overall points ranking based on performance, how they performed according to my b-speccie (and my driving experiences on Citi D'Aria), maybe some other stuff. You caught onto my thoughts... How odd. :lol:
     
  25. Jetboy.

    Jetboy.

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    Motorland Beginner's Course

    This course is alikened to a go-kart course one of my buddies race on... I honestly had dibs on the TVR T350c winning it outright with its short wheelbase, low weight, and prodidgious power. Mmm...Not quite. Nice suprise for 3rd.

    1. SLR McLaren
    41.941

    2. Audi LeMans
    42.810

    3. AM Vanquish
    43.172

    4. Zonda C12s
    43.371

    5. Viper SRT-10
    43.434

    6. NSX-R
    43.553

    7. TVR T350c
    43.880

    8. Jaguar XK-R
    44.003

    9. FPV GT
    44.045

    10. 350Z (GT4 Ed.)
    44.053

    11. Ford GT
    44.116

    12. Esprit
    44.120

    13. Saleen S7
    44.405

    14. M3 GTR
    44. 536

    15. WRX STi
    44.775

    16. Evolution VIII MR
    44.776

    17. RX-7 Spirit R
    44.794

    18. RGT
    44.798

    19. AC 427 S/C
    44.805

    20. GTO
    44.857

    21. Corvette ZO6
    44.900

    22. Speed 12
    44.991




    I decided to drive all the vehicles to 1) get a feel for when I offer my critique tomorrow and 2) My B-speccie called it a night after blowing every single car into the weeds at least once every lap.

    Points of Interest.

    SLR, while "feeling" like a slow lap, shows everyone how its done at the small track. The Viper, while fighting all the way, got at least up to 5th. Not bad. The FPV GT beat the Ford GT by just .071 seconds. How a 4-door sedan beat a supercar is beyond me. The ZO6 and the GTO both suffered and the mighty Speed 12 was a second behind a 4-door sedan.





    Well, this concludes our little test of the Super Class of vehicles, but all is not lost. As stated above, the Ultimate Muscle Car Challenge will be in full swing tomorrow with the 0-60 Test starting the event. Also showing tomorrow will be my full critique of the vehicles and Points based on their performances starting with 100 for 1st, 99 for second, etc.
     
  26. Jetboy.

    Jetboy.

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    This is a cumulative assessment of the 9 events in the USCC, each one worth a full 100 points. What car is really the Ultimate Street Car?



    1. Audi LeMans Quattro
    879 points

    What an amazing car. Bit of a suprise when all points were figured out, but as I looked at it, it was quietly, consistantly in the top 5. Words fail me to describe how it drives, based off the Gallardo from Lamborghini. The brash interloper with the linked rings is a force to be reckoned with.

    2. Ford GT
    868

    Well, what could be expected? I mean, it was under frequent commentation that Kaz overworshiped the thing. Not quite enough to eke out the Audi, though. ( :) )

    3. Merc-Benz SLR
    866

    Who would think a brick like this could do so well, especially at a track such as Motorland? Another suprise like the Audi, it hid quietly in the stats.

    4. Saleen S7
    862

    I loved this car. It understeered a touch more than what I would have liked, but it was blazingly fast with all of 428 cubic inches of raw power.

    5. Zonda C12s
    859

    PD fixed this car's major problem in GT3, which in case any of you do not know, was a top speed issue (220 km/h instead of 220mph) but now it shows the car's true attitude. I must say, not bad, not bad at all.

    6. AC 427 S/C
    826

    Major suprise here. It beat the Speed 12 (by one point) but it shows the Muscle Cars are definitely an alternative venue for racers who want to have a go at the super crowd at discount prices. The car was very grippy on take off, but handling was as expected. It is a '66, after all.

    7. TVR Cerbera Speed 12
    825

    One word: Monstrous

    8. Dodge Viper SRT-10
    818

    This car still caries its pattented "Viper Jounce" knife-edge handling, but it has tamed down from the 1999 GTS. It was an average car, with some distinctive low points, such as Citi d'Aria, where it finished last by 3.5 seconds under the next car.

    9. Chevrolet Corvette ZO6
    816

    It's America's Sport Car. It was a direct invite to the competition, and what comp would be right without one? It didn't disappoint, showing some strong runs, but, when it all gets down to it, 405 hp cant quite keep up with 673 or, say, 798.

    10. BMW M3 GTR
    799

    A real driver's machine, the bimmer required more than the standard skills to make it go. I believe this is what makes them so addictive. :lol:

    11. TVR Cerbera Speed Six/T350c
    793

    The Cerbera was reasonably a good drive, but in this mess, reasonably good does not cut it. And in came the the T350c. Tiny wheelbase, light weight, and amazing power, but yet, something was in arears with this car. It feels choked off, and it understeers horridly for its weight.

    12. Aston Martin V12 Vanquish
    791

    Like the SLR, this car somehow belittles its heft and is an extremely forgiving car. No wonder it was in almost evey single game in 2001.

    13. RUF Gmbh RGT
    789

    Somehow this car lost its pizaaz in the transition from GT3 to GT4 and became a chore to drive. Serious disappointment. :(

    14. Jaguar XK-R
    785

    While not nearly as rewarding as the cars listed above, this machine did have the smoothest shifting automatic, and that has to account for something. :lol:

    15. Honda NSX Type R
    777

    Meh, kinda entertaining to drive, and, it's a Honda. Where can it go wrong?

    16. Pontiac GTO 5.7 Coupe
    745

    First of all, this car wasn't entirely stock halfway through the event. I gave it an upgrade to the 405 horse specs of this years model. After that little boost, the car actually showed some life and is a very pleasant drive. When reaching its limits, she settles into safe light understeer.

    17. Lotus Esprit V8 GT '02
    692

    Eh. See Ruf.

    18. Subaru WRX STi
    667

    Not what it's all cracked up to be. Dunno why everyone raves about the thing if it understeers worse than my various FF cars. Major disappointment here, too.

    19. Mitsubishi Lancer Evolution VIII MR
    657

    See above comment.

    20. Ford Performancce Vehicles GT
    648

    What an outrageous car! Boss 302 V8-- in a sedan. My uncle (a cop) fell in love with it instantly once he heard of the specs and saw it in the sheet-metal.

    21. Calloway C12
    605

    This is a sad case. Here is a tuned Corvette, but it should be lighter. Much lighter. Very boring drive with heavy understeer.

    22. SVT Mustang Cobra R
    601

    Once a favorite in the 2001 test, now a dismal performer. Like the Corvette, 385 hp can only be so competitive. It doesn't help to have a live rear axle, either.

    23. Merc-Benz CLK55 AMG
    589

    Not good at all.

    24. Mazda RX-7 Spirit R/ Bathhurst R
    570

    Great car for the money, beautiful handler, but not enough.

    25. Nissan 350Z (GT4 Ed.)
    562

    This car was so perfect, it was nausiating, leaving one to muse, "How killer would one be with 400 hp?"

    26. Holden Monaro CV8
    468

    This thing was so pathetic that I dropped it altogether in the last few events.





    There you have it, points ranking and my critique on each vehicle. Tomorrow I will post the results of the UMCC 0-60 Test.
     
  27. Jetboy.

    Jetboy.

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    I believe this thread is slowly fading off... :( And yet, so many wanted to see how the muscle cars performed. Hopely this isn't a vain try to keep this thread going...


    Ultimate Muscle Car Challenge

    This was the height in the American car culture, an eight year span from '64 to '72, where cars were cheap, heavy, and ridiculously powerful. Each company produced huge engines, ranging from the "tiny" 289 ci (4.9 litres) to the truly awesome 454 ci (7200cc) V8 and often they crammed these monsters into small chasis which produced stunning results. The pony cars class included the Mustang, Camaro, Cougar and later the odd 'Cuda and Javelin, and the ultimate forms of the Muscle Car of the Charger, Chevelle, and GTO soon followed after. This competition, which I must say is kind of a selfish American Crusade, shows which is the best of the truly awe-inspiring. Here are the first results of the 0-60 Test.



    0-60


    1. Charger R/T
    4.650

    2. Chevelle 454 LS6
    5.083

    3. Mercury Cougar XR-7
    5.133

    4. Camaro 350 SS
    5.198

    5. Charger Super Bee
    5.216

    Plymouth Superbird
    5.216

    7. Shelby Mustang GT350
    5.351

    8. Plymouth Baracuda
    5.517

    9. Corvette Stingray 350
    5.597

    10. Pontiac GTO
    5.683

    11. Buick GNX
    5.816

    12. Camaro IROC-Z
    6.016

    13. Corvette Sting Ray 327
    6.206



    No, 6th isn't a typo. Both times were identical between the Hemi 'Bee and the Hemi 'Bird. For those of which who wanted the Camaro IROC out, it didn't finish last, so it's in. Nice suprise for first. I also had dibs on the Chevelle, but the Charger was faster by .4 seconds.


    Next up: Quarter Mile
     
  28. DuckRacer

    DuckRacer Premium

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    10,164
    If I were you, I'd either make a new topic on this or edit the title so it says "The Ultimate Street/Muscle Car Challenge" or "The Ultimate Street Car Challenge, Muscle Car Challenge Added" or something like that.

    BTW, that's some pretty intresting results, namely the Charger R/T.

    Duck7892
     
  29. clittle

    clittle

    Messages:
    29
    I was really happy to see that the 2wd evo and sti were making a bit of a comeback here.. They're my favourite formula of car and I was starting to get worried that they'd be left behind... ahh well.. can't win em all.... great work.

    As with BSpec on this track, don't you love the way sometimes it loses it on the last corner and just happens to slide into the pits... happenned to me a few times and drove me crazy... oh no, he's on the grass again and Bang... straight into the pits.... it was the pits... hehehehe
     
  30. Jetboy.

    Jetboy.

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    Tell me, how do I do this? I have yet to find an "Edit Title" tab anywhere...


    You know, in a sense these two cars are the new "muscle cars." They have the same exact points. Formula= old/new.

    Based on cheap cars.
    Falcon/Lancer OZ Rally.

    Clever Packaging on Straightforward Performance Technology.
    Droping powerful V8's in small chasis/Turbocharging, all-wheel drive, intercooling.

    Supported By Factory Race Programs.
    Trans Am./WRC

    The similarities do not end there... Performance is near the same as well. (Well, until you turn that is...)




    Well, anyway, here is the Quarter Mile Results.

    Quarter Mile


    1. Charger R/T
    13.218 @ 109

    2. Chevelle 454 LS6
    13.292 @ 111

    3. Charger Super Bee
    13.565 @ 109

    4. Plymouth Superbird
    13.596 @ 110

    5. Shelby Mustang GT350
    13.614 @ 108

    6. Cougar XR-7
    13.636 @ 107

    7. Camaro 350 SS
    13.659 @ 108

    8. Pontiac GTO
    13.840 @ 108

    9. Corvette Stingray 350
    13.873 @ 107

    10. Plyouth Baracuda
    14.060 @ 104

    11. Buick GNX
    14.335 @ 99

    12. Camaro IROC-Z
    14.616 @ 97

    13. Corvette Sting Ray 327
    14.817 @ 97


    The Sting Ray's (I'm talking the '63 here....) 3 speed really hurt it in the speed tests, but its loping 3rd gear would have made it first in top speed, (at 155). The GTO wheezed its way across the line, nearly out of "breath." And how 'bout those Chargers? Dodge really did know what it was doing with the Super Comando and the 426 Hemi. :D