Thoughts on this incident

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Sean Renon

Sean Renon

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I'm in second place.
P1 ended up getting a penalty, which he later in turned blamed me for causing.
I did not get a penalty.

My instincts tell me he left the door wide open, and I wanted to defend the inside line.

I was also in control the whole time and maintaining my line tight to the curb when he turned down on me.

What are your thoughts?
Racing incident?
Was I in the wrong?
Was he?
 
Well, you can't really close the door on a 5 lane road, he's ahead at the turn in point, means he has the right to the apex. You are behind, you're not defending, you're attacking the inside line. It was an aggressive move on your part on the first turn.

On the other hand, there was no need for him to cut you off, plenty of room there. Penalty should have been for both imo.
 
What Sven said mostly, although I like to add that since there was no overlap in the first place, and that you made your move midway through the turn as opposed to the entry, the other guy probably couldn't have seen you (even with radar on) because he already shifted his focus to the apex. He may have seen you at the last moment, but that'd be far too late to dodge
 
Sean Renon


I'm in second place.
P1 ended up getting a penalty, which he later in turned blamed me for causing.
I did not get a penalty.

My instincts tell me he left the door wide open, and I wanted to defend the inside line.

I was also in control the whole time and maintaining my line tight to the curb when he turned down on me.

What are your thoughts?
Racing incident?
Was I in the wrong?
Was he?
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From this: https://www.gtplanet.net/forum/thre...play-gts-with-new-penalization-system.375408/

O-1: To obtain right of road position in a corner, the overtaker's car must have substantial overlap of the car that is being overtaken, before they reach the corner's turn-in point. Should the overtaking car not have enough overlap, the leading car may resume its racing line without fear of contact.

You do not achieve this, but instead you did "barge" into that corner.

The practice of going up the inside of an ahead car after that car has already turned in, and where there was no established substantial overlap before the turn-in point, is sometimes referred to as barge passing, (i.e. you barge your way past). Understand that barge passing is a high risk manoeuvre for both you and others. You have no rights what-so-ever as a barge passer.

As always rules are open for interpretation, in this case i think you were a bit to optimistic, and had you been in the other car you might have seen it different.

Happy racing!
 
The game got it right!

Technically, with regard to the "written" rules/guidelines, yea, I guess... it's on you... BUT...

1st makes a mistake, totally blows the racing line, goes outside, then, scrubs enough speed to alter his line in an attempt to still catch the apex afterwards... so he blows the corner, but then saves it, and still expects the apex is his... you could argue that he cut down on purpose to block your line, which, if I were a betting man would say is what happened... again he had to scrub substantial speed to readjust his line to get back into the race, and, did so by diving down onto the racing line with cars close behind at racing speed... not smart.
That is something I have a real hard time with in the game... someone makes a mistake, scrubs a bunch of speed, then makes a snap move back onto the racing line. Very irresponsible, and is inviting a wreck.

I would like to see what the rules are regarding re-entering the racing line being well off pace, especially when being off pace was through fault of your own doing.

In the real world, 1st place would never have dove back to the racing line with cars that close behind knowing the speed that corner allows... in the real world 1st knows an accident is highly likely if not inevitable, and saves his car/race and powers out on the line he's on to continue the race.

This is a case of someone making a mistake, who is unwilling to accept mistake have consequences, and who is unwilling to pay the consequences of their own mistake... yet willing to sacrifice others for their mistake.

You make a mistake on track, you have to know people are going to take advantage of that, you own your mistake, make room for the other racers, and get back to racing in a safe manner... you don't just dive back into the action at 2/3rds race pace and expect not to get run over.

With the rules/guidelines we all reference, sure, it's your fault...
1st is off the racing line, off race pace and dives back into the action with no regard for cars on the racing line and at race pace.
In this case, I think the game got it right...
 
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it's the first turn of the race, everyone should be doing everything within their power to avoid contact. it's a 17 lap race, give yourself a couple of laps before you really start going for it. Give the group time to spread out a bit. I hate the 1st corner of every race because nobody practices standing starts or even rolling starts, so no one knows exactly where they should brake at the, usually lower speed they are going at on the, first corner.
 
It was definitely your fault, you can't just stick your car up the inside after they've committed to the corner and turned in. I know the inside is very open and inviting there but unless you're alongside before the turn in point resist the urge to overtake, especially from 2-3 car lengths back.
 
cleanLX
For me, that's a tough one.
Technically, with regard to the "written" rules/guidelines, yea, I guess... it's on you... BUT...
1st makes a mistake, totally blows the racing line, goes outside, then, scrubs enough speed to alter his line in an attempt to still catch the apex afterwards... so he blows the corner, but then saves it, and still expects the apex is his... you could argue that he cut down on purpose to block your line, which, if I were a betting man would say is what happened... again he had to scrub substantial speed to readjust his line to get back into the race, and, did so by diving down onto the racing line with cars close behind at racing speed... not smart.
That is something I have a real hard time with in the game... someone makes a mistake, scrubs a bunch of speed, then makes a snap move back onto the racing line. Very irresponsible, and is inviting a wreck.

I would like to see what the rules are regarding re-entering the racing line being well off pace, especially when being off pace was through fault of your own doing.

In the real world, 1st place would never have dove back to the racing line with cars that close behind knowing the speed that corner allows... in the real world 1st knows an accident is highly likely if not inevitable, and saves his car/race and powers out on the line he's on to continue the race.

This is a case of someone making a mistake, who is unwilling to accept mistake have consequences, and who is unwilling to pay the consequences of their own mistake... yet willing to sacrifice others for their mistake.

You make a mistake on track, you have to know people are going to take advantage of that, you own your mistake, make room for the other racers, and get back to racing in a safe manner... you don't just dive back into the action at 2/3rds race pace and expect not to get run over.

With the rules/guidelines we all reference, sure, it's your fault...
1st is off the racing line, off race pace and dives back into the action with no regard for cars on the racing line and at race pace.
In this case, I think the game got it right...
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You might have a case if our esteemed GTP member at least had a substantial overlap on the car that seemingly made a mistake, which is hard to judge since the actual consequence was not losing a little bit of time (debatable how much) but hitting a car that shouldn't have been there.

From our rulebook:

Just because the ahead driver gets a bit out of shape at times does not give you an automatic right to pass uncontested by them or a right to room. You still have to judge if their error provides sufficient opportunity for a safe pass to take place.

Happy racing!
 
@kjeldsen yep, when you read the rules and apply them purely from the written, I must agree with you.
But when a car is, off the racing line, and off race pace, it no longer owns/has the right to dive back onto the racing line, much less the apex of a corner. It is on you to get back up to speed and re-enter the racing line in a safe manner.
If I put myself in the shoes of 1st place, I know I've blown the corner, I know cars are going down the inside at a much higher rate of speed than myself, I know if I cut down I'm going to get run over... I know if I dive inside I've invited a collision, and possibility of wrecking myself, or wrecking someone else.
As such, I hammer down on the outside and race on...
OP nearly comes to a stop on the apex to avoid a car that was off pace, off line and is diving across the front of the field.
1st place even alters his line mid corner entry, last second to block the inside, and nearly causes 3rd and 4th to become his victims as well.
1st place doesn't even turn in until the 10second mark, and at that time there is overlap, enough so that even tho 2nd stays hard on the brakes to avoid, and 1st is on the throttle, at the point they come together they still hit front wheel to back wheel. So I would argue that even though it's not clear in the video, for that to happen there had to be overlap.

I agree not every mistake is an opportunity to pass... however when you've slipped up that bad you have to own it... you cannot just cut down in front of cars traveling at a much higher rate of speed and expect it all to end well.

If you don't put any merit into the above, we will simply have to agree to disagree, and, that is when this would be judged "a racing incident"... when even the "judges" cannot agree. :).
 
kjeldsen
You might have a case if our esteemed GTP member at least had a substantial overlap on the car that seemingly made a mistake, which is hard to judge since the actual consequence was not losing a little bit of time (debatable how much) but hitting a car that shouldn't have been there.

From our rulebook:

Just because the ahead driver gets a bit out of shape at times does not give you an automatic right to pass uncontested by them or a right to room. You still have to judge if their error provides sufficient opportunity for a safe pass to take place.

Happy racing!
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While I agree with the statement in italics, this rarely (if ever) works in practice. If he held up and slowed down to allow the leader room to correct himeslf, it almost always causes a bottleneck behind which piles up the entire field. I’ve seen this time and time again ad nauseam.

If this game continues to be contact lenient with no damage, the only way to manage chronic first corner pileups from mistakes and agressive drivers is to dish out penalties. Let people beat and bang on each other and penalize poor driving accordingly. Or correct the SR system and make it more difficult to move into the higher ranks.
 
cleanLX
@kjeldsen yep, when you read the rules and apply them purely from the written, I must agree with you.
But when a car is, off the racing line, and off race pace, it no longer owns/has the right to dive back onto the racing line, much less the apex of a corner. It is on you to get back up to speed and re-enter the racing line in a safe manner.
If I put myself in the shoes of 1st place, I know I've blown the corner, I know cars are going down the inside at a much higher rate of speed than myself, I know if I cut down I'm going to get run over... I know if I dive inside I've invited a collision, and possibility of wrecking myself, or wrecking someone else.
As such, I hammer down on the outside and race on...
OP nearly comes to a stop on the apex to avoid a car that was off pace, off line and is diving across the front of the field.
1st place even alters his line mid corner entry, last second to block the inside, and nearly causes 3rd and 4th to become his victims as well.
1st place doesn't even turn in until the 10second mark, and at that time there is overlap, enough so that even tho 2nd stays hard on the brakes to avoid, and 1st is on the throttle, at the point they come together they still hit front wheel to back wheel. So I would argue that even though it's not clear in the video, for that to happen there had to be overlap.

I agree not every mistake is an opportunity to pass... however when you've slipped up that bad you have to own it... you cannot just cut down in front of cars traveling at a much higher rate of speed and expect it all to end well.

If you don't put any merit into the above, we will simply have to agree to disagree, and, that is when this would be judged "a racing incident"... when even the "judges" cannot agree. :).
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It is a racing incident caused by a screw up and a opportunistic player that didn't take pole and wants to correct that and win the race in the first corner. In that sense we don't really disagree. But that doesn't help us if we want to judge :-)

Happy racing :)
 
kjeldsen
It is a racing incident caused by a screw up and a opportunistic player that didn't take pole and wants to correct that and win the race in the first corner. In that sense we don't really disagree. But that doesn't help us if we want to judge :-)

Happy racing :)
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Ha, I guess we go back to what @Sven Jurgens wrote then... penalize 'em both.
 
Crazybutt198
Could fit a bus through that gap. Other racer should have kept to his lane, gone round the outside.
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The proper line for that corner is a wide arc off the banking down to the curbing on the inside. Guy in front has every right to that corner and probably never even saw the late dive by 2nd place until contact was made.
 
Crazybutt198
He should be seeing that. Especially at the start with everybody so close. I know i would be.
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If I were him I wouldn't be seeing that. Even with radar. Putting myself in his shoes, my eyes would follow these things in order: 1: glance at the brake marker. 2: Rear view mirror, peripherals, and radar while keeping the brake marker in sight. 3: As I hit my braking point and start to turn in, I would shift all of my attention to the apex. At this point, not even radar can make me notice that there's someone who took the inside after corner entry, nor are the circly thingies in your HUD. The shadow effect may give me a hint that something's going on, but that's too late and I won't be able to dodge by then.
 
cleanLX
@kjeldsen yep, when you read the rules and apply them purely from the written, I must agree with you.
But when a car is, off the racing line, and off race pace, it no longer owns/has the right to dive back onto the racing line, much less the apex of a corner. It is on you to get back up to speed and re-enter the racing line in a safe manner.
If I put myself in the shoes of 1st place, I know I've blown the corner, I know cars are going down the inside at a much higher rate of speed than myself, I know if I cut down I'm going to get run over... I know if I dive inside I've invited a collision, and possibility of wrecking myself, or wrecking someone else.
As such, I hammer down on the outside and race on...
OP nearly comes to a stop on the apex to avoid a car that was off pace, off line and is diving across the front of the field.
1st place even alters his line mid corner entry, last second to block the inside, and nearly causes 3rd and 4th to become his victims as well.
1st place doesn't even turn in until the 10second mark, and at that time there is overlap, enough so that even tho 2nd stays hard on the brakes to avoid, and 1st is on the throttle, at the point they come together they still hit front wheel to back wheel. So I would argue that even though it's not clear in the video, for that to happen there had to be overlap.

I agree not every mistake is an opportunity to pass... however when you've slipped up that bad you have to own it... you cannot just cut down in front of cars traveling at a much higher rate of speed and expect it all to end well.

If you don't put any merit into the above, we will simply have to agree to disagree, and, that is when this would be judged "a racing incident"... when even the "judges" cannot agree. :).
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Those same rules quoted above also covers this type of situation. Ownership of the apex does not automatically go to the car ahead:

If an ahead driver has clearly made an error to warrant a passing move, a behind driver may attack their position, with due caution and care, regardless of whether there was any pre-existing overlap. However, the overtaking driver must still avoid contact. Small errors by the ahead driver may not justify a passing move. The ahead driver getting a bit out of shape at times doesn't give you an automatic right to pass. You still have to judge if their error allows for a safe pass to take place.

So the question would be whether the ahead driver made enough of an error to get past. If i was the behind driver I would have attacked an error like that in a tight racing situation. If I were the ahead driver I would have covered the inside move to begin with to prevent a late attack from an overly rambunctious driver, but barring that, if I tried to take that wide an entry and bobbled it even slightly, I'd expect the behind driver to attack and I'd have left room to avoid contact.
 
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My advice don't do that again.
You can't just fly to the inside from the back an then claim it like that.

Always be sure he can see you and has the time to act.

This is 100% your fault.
 
gt5 staff
My advice don't do that again.
You can't just fly to the inside from the back an then claim it like that.

Always be sure he can see you and has the time to act.

This is 100% your fault.
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The onus is upon all drivers to know where the cars ahead and behind are at all times so we assume for the sake of argument that the ahead driver could see him and had the time to act. But really, that's a decision you have to make in advance before you head into a corner. I don't know about everyone else, but the second I make a bobble, the first thing I do is check the mirror and my radar to see what the person behind me is going to do because I mentally prepared myself to do that before I entered the corner.
 
That is what i think the Problem if Players with not perfected Skills on a Track meet each other in super fast Cars. Tiny differently braking points and the demolition derby is on.
I think it was bad luck for both. he braked to early i seems and you couldnt avoid to stay behind him since you didnt expect to catch up this fast. Everything happens so fast. Thats, why i like GR4 a lot. It lets more room for Skillcaps since we have more Time to react in slower Cars.
 
You are aggressive and choosing a tighter line, you are holding and committing to that line and you are occupying that space.
You are not "dive bombing", using him as a brake or leaning on him.
The fact that he is in P1 does NOT automatically give him the right to the apex or to occupy a space already taken.
Also, having P1 doesn't mean one can ignore the rest of the grid, don't use ones mirror and are given special right of way.
Saying he has to look for breaking points, turn in points etc. is no excuse for ignoring the rest of the competition.
I'd say you're clearly in the right and he made a bad move/mistake.
 
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gt5 staff
My advice don't do that again.
You can't just fly to the inside from the back an then claim it like that.

Always be sure he can see you and has the time to act.

This is 100% your fault.
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Couldn’t have said it better. It is true that he left you some room. But that changes nothing for the statement.
Senna would agree with you though ;)
 
Am I the only one thinking that P1 brakes way, way too much ? I mean, P2, P3 & P4 are blocked by his move, although they were quite far behind... If you brake that much when it's not needed, you have to expect some people trying to pass, no ?
Edit : too much and/or to early ?
 
philipPF
Am I the only one thinking that P1 brakes way, way too much ? I mean, P2, P3 & P4 are blocked by his move, although they were quite far behind... If you brake that much when it's not needed, you have to expect some people trying to pass, no ?
Edit : too much and/or to early ?
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Agreed!
He brakes too early, too much and he's leaving the door wide open.
And then on top of it, is not aware of the positioning of his opponents.
As others has pointed out further up the thread, he should expect/anticipate a move like this, way before the corner.
 
I guess the next question is more of an ethical mental exercise, but which foul does everyone feel was more egregious, the dive bomb attempt or the collision by P2?
 
BallPtPenTheif
I guess the next question is more of an ethical mental exercise, but which foul does everyone feel was more egregious, the dive bomb attempt or the collision by P2?
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It's not a divebomb if the person ahead is judged to have made a mistake and is well off the racing line at a lower speed. IMO that's the case here based on how quickly second and third close in on first. Based on that I can't agree on the premise of your question.
 

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