Top ranking players handbraking? (M4 Seasonal)

[Ridox2JZGTE]

As Chris says... people were using the handbrake back in GT5 seasonals without SRF.

The issue is with how the handbrake is modelled in GT5/6... it allows you to apply very small amounts of rear wheel lock very quickly, causing instant rotation.

I think that is how it is in real life too, if you often watch Dori Dori inboard cam when racing in Hot Version or Best Motoring videos, he often yank the e brake for a split second to induce oversteer or cause the nose to turn in faster He almost always do this when driving FF cars with understeer like Civic Type R for example. It takes certain skill to pull it IMO, especially in a racing pace.

 

[Stotty]

I think that is how it is in real life too, if you often watch Dori Dori inboard cam when racing in Hot Version or Best Motoring videos, he often yank the e brake for a split second to induce oversteer or cause the nose to turn in faster

He almost always do this when driving FF cars with understeer like Civic Type R for example. It takes certain skill to pull it IMO, especially in a racing pace.

I’m not sure who he is, but I don’t think I’ve ever seen the handbrake used myself in all the in car video’s I’ve seen. Most drivers would use left foot braking nowadays to achieve the same result, but you can’t do this in GT as the game doesn’t model weight transfer properly – unless you’re in a car with a rear biased weight distribution, when you tap the brake pedal to move weight forward and unload the rear it just creates more understeer.

 

[Ridox2JZGTE]

I’m not sure who he is, but I don’t think I’ve ever seen the handbrake used myself in all the in car video’s I’ve seen. Most drivers would use left foot braking nowadays to achieve the same result, but you can’t do this in GT as the game doesn’t model weight transfer properly – unless you’re in a car with a rear biased weight distribution, when you tap the brake pedal to move weight forward and unload the rear it just creates more understeer.

Dori Dori :

Here is an example - Go to 45 minutes - he did it 1st at 45:02, driving FD2 Civic Type R tuned by Spoon in a battle against 2 tuned S2000 ( J's Racing and Seeker ) He did it again at 47:29 ( almost more than a second yanking the e brake ) and again at 48:02. He complains a lot with the Spoon FD2 having too much understeer

 

[Thorin Cain]

TBH I really don't see the problem with using the handbrake a little to aid the rotation of the car. I myself am more of a motorcycle racing fan and there are plenty of top class racers (Marco Melandri and Tony Elias most notably) who use a similar technique with a slight application of rear brake on turn in to achieve the same goal, not to mention just about every rally driver I've ever seen.
Yes I understand these disciplines are both far removed from racing cars on a nice little tarmac ribbon but consider this, a lot of racers don't use the R/A options in GT and not all corners are the same, some require a front bias and some require a rear bias. You will find that a lot of race courses have a mixture of both,so it stands to reason that it would make a great deal of sense if you are racing on a course which required more of a front bias but did have a couple of corners where a rear bias would be a lot better the nice little handbrake which everyone has the ability to utilize would be used a little to compliment the front bias which would be applied in your tuning menu. The point of TTs is after all,to get round that track in the fastest time possible with the resources available to you as long as your car is set with the same restrictions as everyone else, is it not.

 

[Supermoney47]

Does ABS 0 make this strategy less effective?

 

[Ridox2JZGTE]

Does ABS 0 make this strategy less effective?

I don't see how that will affect anything, I never use ABS, and I often use ebrake around corners when I need to during races online and offline.

 

[CeeJay]

After watching Keiichi Tsuchiya time attack on a small twisting track using a hand brake I don't question the use of it one bit. It's def a legit way to get an understeering car to twist more into a turn. If it's available to you, use it to your advantage. I think this is more about the SRF.. bleah.. I do admit I use it now to blow through the seasonal events.. once I saw others using it I don't see the point of trying to go for top times.. just give me my paint chip!

 

[Supermoney47]

I think we are all in agreement that SRF sucks big time.
As for the ebrake thanks for the heads up. I have never even considered this as I don't have ebrake mapped to a button.

 

[Stotty]

Dori Dori :

Here is an example - Go to 45 minutes - he did it 1st at 45:02, driving FD2 Civic Type R tuned by Spoon in a battle against 2 tuned S2000 ( J's Racing and Seeker ) He did it again at 47:29 ( almost more than a second yanking the e brake ) and again at 48:02. He complains a lot with the Spoon FD2 having too much understeer

He looks about 70, but he's clearly quite handy! The 2nd use is almost a handbrake turn If you did that in GT your car would spin!

TBH I really don't see the problem with using the handbrake a little to aid the rotation of the car. I myself am more of a motorcycle racing fan and there are plenty of top class racers (Marco Melandri and Tony Elias most notably) who use a similar technique with a slight application of rear brake on turn in to achieve the same goal, not to mention just about every rally driver I've ever seen.
Yes I understand these disciplines are both far removed from racing cars on a nice little tarmac ribbon but consider this, a lot of racers don't use the R/A options in GT and not all corners are the same, some require a front bias and some require a rear bias. You will find that a lot of race courses have a mixture of both,so it stands to reason

I'm no expert on bikes, but I thought you backed them in to corner in a similar way to a car - by applying enough front brake that you unload the rear, not by locking the rear wheel with the brake?

 

[Thorin Cain]

He looks about 70, but he's clearly quite handy! The 2nd use is almost a handbrake turn If you did that in GT your car would spin!



I'm no expert on bikes, but I thought you backed them in to corner in a similar way to a car - by applying enough front brake that you unload the rear, not by locking the rear wheel with the brake?

Yes this is true, however once the bike is leaned over it is a pretty bad idea to use the front brake so a light application of the rear would be used(not locking up, it's called scrubbing I believe) so for example you have just came off a long straight and you need to slow down for a fairly medium speed corner which has a tightening second corner like the first couple of corners at Apricot Hill for instance. There would be a case here for applying a little rear brake to slow for the second part as the bike would still be leaned over after a little use of the throttle between the first apex and the entry of the second corner. Most bikes would probably be able to use engine breaking alone for this but depending on the situation, I dare say on a qualifying lap or trying an overtake, the rear brake would be used by a lot of riders at this point.

 

[s-oso]

I used that same trick for certain licence challenges (srf off). It is fater than just normal breaking and realistically it has no place in the game.

 

[Stotty]

Yes this is true, however once the bike is leaned over it is a pretty bad idea to use the front brake so a light application of the rear would be used(not locking up, it's called scrubbing I believe) so for example you have just came off a long straight and you need to slow down for a fairly medium speed corner which has a tightening second corner like the first couple of corners at Apricot Hill for instance. There would be a case here for applying a little rear brake to slow for the second part as the bike would still be leaned over after a little use of the throttle between the first apex and the entry of the second corner. Most bikes would probably be able to use engine breaking alone for this but depending on the situation, I dare say on a qualifying lap or trying an overtake, the rear brake would be used by a lot of riders at this point.

As little as I know about bikes, I learnt the hard way not to apply any front brake whilst cornering on my mountain bike (as in I had a massive crash )… unfortunately there’s no engine braking on a push bike.

I get using the rear brake would allow the bike to turn harder though – more by shedding speed than making the rear slide (which I guess is ‘scrubbing’)… I can’t remember how I used to do it on my bike, must have been instinctive I guess.

 

[CarBastard]

The fact that using the hand-brake can decrease your lap time at all is frankly ridiculous. It isn't cheating, no, since its freely available to everyone but it does diminish the enjoyment of TTing somewhat when you realise that to be competitive, you have to adopt a technique that, if you tried it in a real car, would destroy your rear tyres and damage your suspension eventually as well. But this is a game, right.. so that makes it ok to have to learn tricks that would be more at home in Super Mario Kart.

Hey this is GT6, the real driving simulator and I can hand-brake a race car at 100+mph.

Fact is, losing traction is never the fastest way through a corner on tarmac. So if it actually is in GT.... well, its not a huge mental leap to the obvious conclusion...

By all means, learn the hand-brake trick. Apparently, you can use it to dive-bomb people in the braking zone in a race as well. For my part, a bit of me dies inside each time I see it used.

Aaaaaaaaaaaaaand, with this brilliant post by a D1G alien, /thread.

 

[HuskyGT]

Well, if these people want to spend their whole day getting the best time even by using methods that are unorthodox to road racing, it's their loss. I got gold at the first lap like many, and that's more then enough for me. Thanks to that I got money to spend on the cars I want, test them, take pictures of them and race them in other events to get more money. While they waste their whole day dong lap after lap, I can enjoy the rest of the game.

 

[Thorin Cain]

As little as I know about bikes, I learnt the hard way not to apply any front brake whilst cornering on my mountain bike (as in I had a massive crash )… unfortunately there’s no engine braking on a push bike.

I get using the rear brake would allow the bike to turn harder though – more by shedding speed than making the rear slide (which I guess is ‘scrubbing’)… I can’t remember how I used to do it on my bike, must have been instinctive I guess.

A lesson well learned, I had a similar accident when learning to ride motorbikes too. Experience is the best teacher they say

But yes, it is essentially shedding speed as well as changing the balance of the bike to allow the rider to get back on the power a little quicker for a better launch out the corner.

 

[RacingManiac]

The fact that you can use SRF on time trials means to be fast you need to exploit that and you need the tires to be sliding for SRF to function, you induced understeer by turning in too fast and use the e-brake to get the rear to slide to give you grip also. Probably not a bad strategy but ultimately thats the issue with having SRF...

 

[avens]

No I'm saying that if the handbrake method is faster then so be it. Those time trials are only live for 2 weeks anyway so I generally do not even bother trying to get a fast time in them, just well enough to win the prize and move on so I really do not care what the guys that manage to get to the top are doing to get there

While it isn't cheating and at the same time being the best in everything requires to do what the better people do, the problem here is the bigger picture which is car dynamics as a whole (this handbraking issue is not realistic) and GT Academy (best lap times mario kart cornering is laughable, and is tied to this along with SRF and unrealistically grippy tires).

 

[RacingManiac]

I think realism aspect is debatable, the way most cars are setup now it'll be hard to exploit this by most driver. The Keiich Tsuchiya method works on some car but probably not all cars. More likely you get ESC or some kind of driving aid to take advantage of this. McLaren famously had this on their F1 car:

http://www.f1fanatic.co.uk/2007/05/24/banned-mclarens-rear-brake-pedal/

Also note they not only can brake just the rear, they can brake either one of the rear independently....effectively a manual brake-based torque vectoring....something a lot of cars now have with their performance oriented stability control can do...

 

[s-oso]

Well, rally cars are even without effective rear brake. In it's place they have lever that blocks differential, allowing slides in hairpins.

 

[NixxxoN]

Am I the one who doesnt care at all about the worldwide records? There will always be someone with absolutely nothing to do willing to top the list and trying to improve 24hours a day.

 

[Vagabond]

Am I the one who doesnt care at all about the worldwide records? There will always be someone with absolutely nothing to do willing to top the list and trying to improve 24hours a day.

You'll not be the only one but I expect you'll be in a minority. This is a racing oriented game after all... competitiveness seems implied.

 

[EAGLE 5]

Dori Dori :

Here is an example - Go to 45 minutes - he did it 1st at 45:02, driving FD2 Civic Type R tuned by Spoon in a battle against 2 tuned S2000 ( J's Racing and Seeker ) He did it again at 47:29 ( almost more than a second yanking the e brake ) and again at 48:02. He complains a lot with the Spoon FD2 having too much understeer

Bingo.

Watching BestMotoring videos is where I learned E-brake usage. I use it in real life when I rallycross and when I have to overcome lower speed understeer caused by gravel or wet surface. I drive a front heavy Evo X which at speed can easily overpower the front tire's grip and understeer. A quick tug on the panic handle works wonders toward pulling the car back on the right track.

Also doing this doesn't break the car. Worst thing it does is cook your rear brakes and that's about it. Not sure about Audis but with an Evo or an STi (not a regular WRX which is different) the same sensor that lights up your brake light on the dash triggers a signal to the transmission/transfer case ECU to unlock the center diff so you don't grenade it while pulling the brake. Couple this with proper clutch usage (i.e. clutch in, pull brake, clutch out) and you got nothing to worry about.

I think that as long as the car comes with a functional e-brake it should be fair game because there's plenty of uses for it and nobody is restricted from trying. As a suggestion I would prefer if cars that didn't have it in real life not have it in the game.

 

[NixxxoN]

You'll not be the only one but I expect you'll be in a minority. This is a racing oriented game after all... competitiveness seems implied.

Yeah, but in real life drivers don't try 1000 times the same thing over and over again until they do it perfect.
I mean doing so wont make you a better driver... the important is to do well and be fast ON THE FIRST TRY, in any situation. Not a couple of times out of lots of tries.

 

[Vagabond]

Yeah, but in real life drivers don't try 1000 times the same thing over and over again until they do it perfect.

Yes they do... and they never stop throughout their career. Look, if you don't want to/can't be bothered, that's your choice but don't try and imply that people who want to spend more time on it are in some way sad or desperate, it just sounds petty and spiteful. Besides which, speaking from experience, the fastest guys tend to reach their ultimate pace sooner rather than later.

 

[cbb]

its not turning the car faster its breaking and lowering the regs at the same tiime wi thout changing the balance of the car therefore alowing the car to turn faster. u guys act like it works waaaay more in the game andis unrealistic but u just dont understand driving well enough

 

[NixxxoN]

but don't try and imply that people who want to spend more time on it are in some way sad or desperate, it just sounds petty and spiteful.

I didn't say so, you made this out

 

[Vagabond]

I didn't say so, you made this out

So I imagined the implied criticism in this:

Am I the one who doesnt care at all about the worldwide records? There will always be someone with absolutely nothing to do willing to top the list and trying to improve 24hours a day.

Ok then. In that case, your point escapes me entirely.

 

[NixxxoN]

So I imagined the implied criticism in this:

Ok then. In that case, your point escapes me entirely.

I didnt say anything about "sad or desperate" just people with a lot of free time on their hands. I think the vast majority of players spend about... less than half an hour? trying to set a good time and that's it. Because people have stuff to do and can't spends lots of hours trying to set really good times just for the sake of it

 

[CSLACR]

As little as I know about bikes, I learnt the hard way not to apply any front brake whilst cornering on my mountain bike (as in I had a massive crash )… unfortunately there’s no engine braking on a push bike.

I get using the rear brake would allow the bike to turn harder though – more by shedding speed than making the rear slide (which I guess is ‘scrubbing’)… I can’t remember how I used to do it on my bike, must have been instinctive I guess.

He is right, using the rear brake on a bike is very useful.
However, bikes have separate controls for front and rear brakes, whereas the only way in most cars to use the rear brakes without using the fronts, is to pull an awkward lever, and it can't be applied 5x in 2 seconds irl.

Also, as you mentioned, the rear brake doesn't help bikes by causing the rear to slide. 👍 (locking the rear can be terrifying or deadly) On bikes, it helps simply because the front wheel retains 100% grip.

Yeah, but in real life drivers don't try 1000 times the same thing over and over again until they do it perfect.
I mean doing so wont make you a better driver... the important is to do well and be fast ON THE FIRST TRY, in any situation. Not a couple of times out of lots of tries.

It doesn't make them better?
It sure as hell made me better. (and a large group of friends, and everyone I've ever raced)

 

[NixxxoN]

It doesn't make them better?
It sure as hell made me better. (and a large group of friends, and everyone I've ever raced)

I think I choose the wrong word. I mean, by doing a great time in some event (by repeating it 1000 times) it won't make you automatically a great driver.