Toyota Petrol Hybrid LMP1 to Lemans and WEC (Its Official)

  • Thread starter Blaze_409
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To anyone who says that hybrid tech might not be up to speed. simply put its Toyota. Its TMG. doesnt matter what we've seen in the past. This is toyota Motor co sending TMg out on a mission. Considering that Toyota is the world leader in hybrid tech with the Prius. Love it or hate it. They know what they're doing. Toyota is bigger than Audi. Toyota is bigger than Peugeot. Depsite theyre F1 foray. Its much easier to design and Closed wheel prototype than a F1 car because for f1 cars you need to take into account the intereactions between the air and the wheels which is not something you can read a book on. A closed top proto doesnt have that issue. With the kind of money that TMG has. They're not going down without a fight.

And im pretty sure they will be at Sebring next year.....This project is rumoured to have been on development since 2008......Its not a matter of theyre still designing the car. They only need to build it. And sebring is where you find out what breaks so i doubt they will miss it.

And especially because as of right now Sebring is the Only American round of WEC. To think that Toyota would miss the only American Race is hard to believe. The American market for toyotas is probably the're biggest with the prius and the camry. They will be there in 2012
 
Blaze_409
And im pretty sure they will be at Sebring next year.....This project is rumoured to have been on development since 2008......Its not a matter of theyre still designing the car. They only need to build it. And sebring is where you find out what breaks so i doubt they will miss it.
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Project maybe (I think that many of these rumours have lacked substance), but not this car.

According to the PR it will start testing early 2012. Look at the developements of the newer 908 and R18. 908 for example hit the track already in June 2010. It was ready for Sebring, R18 hit the track first time later in the year and wasn't ready for Sebring.

Also, the press release clearly says they'll enter "several" races of the WEC. If it was 100% sure, they wouldn't say so, because being a full season entry has some benefits (classification in the manufacturers' championship etc).

And especially because as of right now Sebring is the Only American round of WEC. To think that Toyota would miss the only American Race is hard to believe. The American market for toyotas is probably the're biggest with the prius and the camry. They will be there in 2012
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This is a good point, but still, if it's not ready, then it's not ready for Sebring. Going there with a car that's not ready to race and DNF'ing due some primitive technical reasons is not exactly good marketing.
 
i say we all join together and refuse to buy priuses unless the come to america! lolol not that i was going to get a prius to begin with.
 
Fuji is apart of the WEC next year, at least supposedly, which is Toyota's home track. They'll definitely be there, and I doubt anything less than 1st place will please them.
 
quite frankly toyota's methodology is pretty simple. Pour on the cash until it works. And they have more than enough money to do so. And plenty of BIG sponsors whether that be Panasonic or Denso of Esso. Its hard to believe they wont win a race next year......

especially withthe clown show that Audi and Peugeot have put destroying cars in races. Audi and peugeot will need to clean up there act.

Imagine trying to put a giant bagel inside of a toaster.....It cant be done. Toyota's answer......Money......and more money......LMPs is actually something that the mroe moeny you throw at it the more results you get. so its good fit for toyota. F1 is another. its hard to predict the aero of an open wheeler. alot simpler for a closed top.
 
Blaze_409
Imagine trying to put a giant bagel inside of a toaster.....It cant be done. Toyota's answer......Money......and more money......LMPs is actually something that the mroe moeny you throw at it the more results you get. so its good fit for toyota. F1 is another. its hard to predict the aero of an open wheeler. alot simpler for a closed top.
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More money=more results didn't quite work for Toyota in F1...
 
That's because they ran F1 by committee from Tokyo. I doubt they'd make the same mistake twice.
 
Paulie Walnuts
More money=more results didn't quite work for Toyota in F1...
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did you miss this?

Blaze_409
quite frankly toyota's methodology is pretty simple. Pour on the cash until it works. And they have more than enough money to do so. And plenty of BIG sponsors whether that be Panasonic or Denso of Esso. Its hard to believe they wont win a race next year......

especially withthe clown show that Audi and Peugeot have put destroying cars in races. Audi and peugeot will need to clean up there act.

Imagine trying to put a giant bagel inside of a toaster.....It cant be done. Toyota's answer......Money......and more money......LMPs is actually something that the mroe moeny you throw at it the more results you get. so its good fit for toyota. F1 is another. its hard to predict the aero of an open wheeler. alot simpler for a closed top.
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its alot simpler especially with the regulations that stop you have having to design crazy trick aero devices such as in f1
 
Blaze_409
quite frankly toyota's methodology is pretty simple. Pour on the cash until it works. And they have more than enough money to do so. And plenty of BIG sponsors whether that be Panasonic or Denso of Esso. Its hard to believe they wont win a race next year......

especially withthe clown show that Audi and Peugeot have put destroying cars in races. Audi and peugeot will need to clean up there act.

Imagine trying to put a giant bagel inside of a toaster.....It cant be done. Toyota's answer......Money......and more money......LMPs is actually something that the mroe moeny you throw at it the more results you get. so its good fit for toyota. F1 is another. its hard to predict the aero of an open wheeler. alot simpler for a closed top.
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If anyone needs to get their act together, its the ACO.
 
Blaze_409
did you miss this?



its alot simpler especially with the regulations that stop you have having to design crazy trick aero devices such as in f1
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Really...didn't seem to work too well for a very resent and tossed away Aston Martin that had lots of money put into the development. Especially seeing how the Lola (cheaper) route was working quite well.
"Looks over 2011 Muscle Milk results"
 
LMSCorvetteGT2
that had lots of money put into the development.
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AMR's car was a compromise from beginning due their limited budget. A lot of money is what Audi and Peugeot (and soon Toyota) are spending and AMR is very far from that level. Toyota was one of the biggest and often the biggest spender in F1. Not really comparable to AMR's shoestring budget.
 
Paulie Walnuts
AMR's car was a compromise from beginning due their limited budget. A lot of money is what Audi and Peugeot (and soon Toyota) are spending and AMR is very far from that level. Toyota was one of the biggest and often the biggest spender in F1. Not really comparable to AMR's shoestring budget.
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Yes I know Toyota was a big spender in F1, but throwing money at something isn't going to win races. Ferrari spends tons of money in F1 same with McLaren, but if you don't have the technical know how like RBR (Adrian Newey and Crew) then your car wont win races who also spend a good chunk. Rory Byrne, Ross Brawn, Adrian Newey and various others beat Toyota's money because it's more a talent and know how factor than a dollars and cents one. It may be different but Toyota hasn't had much luck in international racing...well unless you count nascar I suppose. Second time around in Le Mans they didn't win nor had a car that won a championship GT-One was great just wasn't good enough, same could be said for a few of the Toyota F1 cars. Now I can't fully knock Toyota cause they have had a great Prototype in the early 90s the TS010.

I'm not going to knock Toyota down, but if they repeat history by throwing a ton of money into racing and not getting the technical aspect behind them...they'll lose to Audi who has done this for more than a decade now with success, Peugot who has also had practice the past few years but early 90s in Prototype being very successful. Trying to come in and face that type of thing with money alone wont work. Especially with Honda coming back in the ARX-01e as well as the Lola Aston Martin, and the Dyson. However, we'll just have to see and then say I told you so down the road. Toyota usually have good teams when they join racing...but it's the great team that end on the top of podium.

Oh and I was wrong about Aston Martin (Prodrive) AMR-ONE...it seems that the real issue was trying to tackel too many things at once that hurt those guys. Prodrive has a good rally team going right now that they working on and developing next years car; and is going to supply teams in the next couple years with F1 engines that they're currently working on for the 2014 regs. So that is more of the reason why, money was part of the problem but they would have probably been better if their resources were solely on Sport Car racing.
 
LMSCorvetteGT2
Yes I know Toyota was a big spender in F1, but throwing money at something isn't going to win races. Ferrari spends tons of money in F1 same with McLaren, but if you don't have the technical know how like RBR (Adrian Newey and Crew) then your car wont win races who also spend a good chunk. Rory Byrne, Ross Brawn, Adrian Newey and various others beat Toyota's money because it's more a talent and know how factor than a dollars and cents one.
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Yes, my post was a bit contradictory... but what I meant is that the competition especially when Toyota was still in F1 was much, much higher and margins much smaller than now in LMP1. With the money Toyota is bringing they're basically guaranteed to be the 3rd fastest team after Audi and Peugeot. Of course, that's same as losing, but they have money and they have potential, AMR doesn't have money and thus no potential and that's why I think the comparison to AMR was bad.

It may be different but Toyota hasn't had much luck in international racing...well unless you count nascar I suppose.
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WRC in the 1990s ;)

Oh and I was wrong about Aston Martin (Prodrive) AMR-ONE...it seems that the real issue was trying to tackel too many things at once that hurt those guys. Prodrive has a good rally team going right now that they working on and developing next years car; and is going to supply teams in the next couple years with F1 engines that they're currently working on for the 2014 regs. So that is more of the reason why, money was part of the problem but they would have probably been better if their resources were solely on Sport Car racing.
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There might be some point in that, but Prodrive doesn't spend its own money. They spend Aston Martin's money. And Aston Martin has given them very little money - big part of the budget relies on selling the race cars to collectors before hand.

ps. "and is going to supply teams in the next couple years with F1 engines", huh?
 
Paulie Walnuts
Yes, my post was a bit contradictory... but what I meant is that the competition especially when Toyota was still in F1 was much, much higher and margins much smaller than now in LMP1. With the money Toyota is bringing they're basically guaranteed to be the 3rd fastest team after Audi and Peugeot. Of course, that's same as losing, but they have money and they have potential, AMR doesn't have money and thus no potential and that's why I think the comparison to AMR was bad.


WRC in the 1990s ;)


There might be some point in that, but Prodrive doesn't spend its own money. They spend Aston Martin's money. And Aston Martin has given them very little money - big part of the budget relies on selling the race cars to collectors before hand.

ps. "and is going to supply teams in the next couple years with F1 engines", huh?
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I know about WRC but I don't count it because it is pavement racing that we're talking about. However, I do agree they were amazing at WRC and let's not forget what they achieved with Rod Millen and Hill Climb. If Aston didn't give them money then I was wrong and I apologize and have lost respect for Aston Martin thinking they could win something by trying to throw mud at it. Prodrive is going to be moving on the F1 racing soon as an engine provider when F1 moves to V6 single turbo engines in 2014. At this moment Prodrive has claimed that they're working on engines and plan to be testing them and down the road putting them into cars for further testing.

Anyways on a side note thank you for actual debating me and not fighting with me in a intelligent and peaceful manner. Site needs more of that.
 
sumbrownkid
Do Hybrid cars enjoy the added torque, or will the weight added from such equipment be a handicap?
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Seeing as their is only one other car that was hybrid to race so far and wasn't a LMP1 car...can't say for certian really. We'd have to see it run first to really know or get an extensive more clear article.
 
LMSCorvetteGT2
I know about WRC but I don't count it because it is pavement racing that we're talking about.
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We're talking about the exact same team though. TTE ran the WRC, Le Mans and F1 programmes all from Cologne. Much of their success was down to Ove Andersson.
I don't really see much of a solid argument that Toyota can't be successful, the GT-One was nearly successful and with a bit more development to improve the reliability it would have won.

Prodrive own Aston Martin, Aston Martin doesn't "give" them any money.

Prodrive relies on their backers in the Middle East as well as sponsorship to fund its efforts.

Peugeot and Audi head the field on budgets and their budgets are not even that extreme. Audi don't even carry out the bulk of their design work - its made by Dallara! (Dallara also constructed the GT-One and the R8)
Toyota have their own windtunnel facilities as well as all the production stuff to create their own car without any outside help.
 
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LMSCorvetteGT2
Yes I know Toyota was a big spender in F1, but throwing money at something isn't going to win races.
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isnt it rumoured that Red Bull spends the most money on F1 and that they breaced the RRA.. food for thought

Ardius
Peugeot and Audi head the field on budgets and their budgets are not even that extreme. Audi don't even carry out the bulk of their design work - its made by Dallara! (Dallara also constructed the GT-One and the R8)
Toyota have their own windtunnel facilities as well as all the production stuff to create their own car without any outside help.
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we should clear this up. Audi does 100% of the design work on the car. They send the specs to dallara to build the monocoque that Audi designed. ditto for the R8 and the GT-one. Dallara didnt design those chassis.
 
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Ardius
We're talking about the exact same team though. TTE ran the WRC, Le Mans and F1 programmes all from Cologne. Much of their success was down to Ove Andersson.
I don't really see much of a solid argument that Toyota can't be successful, the GT-One was nearly successful and with a bit more development to improve the reliability it would have won.

Prodrive own Aston Martin, Aston Martin doesn't "give" them any money.

Prodrive relies on their backers in the Middle East as well as sponsorship to fund its efforts.

Peugeot and Audi head the field on budgets and their budgets are not even that extreme. Audi don't even carry out the bulk of their design work - its made by Dallara! (Dallara also constructed the GT-One and the R8)
Toyota have their own windtunnel facilities as well as all the production stuff to create their own car without any outside help.
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Sorry Ardius but we just cleared that all up...so yeah thanks for trying to debate me but another user informed me where I was wrong and I've already said thanks and agreed with them...Also never said they couldn't be successful just saying that money doesn't make the team, the talented personalities hired like people such as Gordan Murray, Rory Byrne, Ross Brawn and Adrian Newey (f1 wise) are reasons teams won with the help of money. If Toyota goes the F1 route they will be third best team again or fourth even and that isn't what a manufacture wants when joining such a big series.

Blaze_409
isnt it rumoured that Red Bull spends the most money on F1 and that they breaced the RRA.. food for thought
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I've also heard this, but RBR say they don't spend the most, and if you look at figures from Ferrari they're also said to spend close to or more than RBR by some as well. So not sure who to believe, cause Merc GP was also accussed of over spending not too long ago. So it's hard to pin down who is in the red and who isn't. Either way talents like Brawn and Newey are what teams need to win in such classes like LMP1 & 2 as well as F1.
 
Ardius
Prodrive own Aston Martin
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Huh? :dunce:

I do know about the Kuwaiti investment company involved in both and of course that David Richards is a figure in both (and owner at least in the other one) but further explanation (or a source) would be nice, because at this point I don't feel like believing this claim.
 
Ardius
Peugeot and Audi head the field on budgets and their budgets are not even that extreme. Audi don't even carry out the bulk of their design work - its made by Dallara! (Dallara also constructed the GT-One and the R8)
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Actually, Dallara only built the monoque for both the GT-One and the Audi R8 as well as the R10 and R15. They didn't construct the cars.


And call me crazy, but I think Dassault might have had abit of a helping hand in the 908 as well.
 
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prisonermonkeys
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/business/6442101.stm

Prodrive own Aston Martin. The Kuwaitis helped with the purchase, but the ultimate ownership rests with Dave Richards.
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I still don't get how Prodrive equals to Richards. And what do you exactly mean with ultimate ownership? "...confirmed that 90 per cent of its stock had been sold to the consortium led by Richards, and otherwise comprised of Texan banker John Sinders, and Kuwaiti investment firms Investment Dar and Adeem Investment." (source) At least in 2009 Dar's share was 51%. (source)

Investment Dar became involved in Prodrive in 2008.
 
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LMSCorvetteGT2
Sorry Ardius but we just cleared that all up...so yeah thanks for trying to debate me but another user informed me where I was wrong and I've already said thanks and agreed with them...Also never said they couldn't be successful just saying that money doesn't make the team, the talented personalities hired like people such as Gordan Murray, Rory Byrne, Ross Brawn and Adrian Newey (f1 wise) are reasons teams won with the help of money. If Toyota goes the F1 route they will be third best team again or fourth even and that isn't what a manufacture wants when joining such a big series.
.
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Money pays for the talented personalities. Money pays for the best facilities in the world. Money pays for windtunnel hours, engine development, testing, the best mechanics, designers, engineers, drivers...

Money obviously isn't everything, but it helps a lot. Even in F1. Look at BrawnGP.

But obviously the difference between Ferrari and Red Bull is not money but talent. How can you decide though that Toyota does or doesn't have the talent? The only way to find out is when they hit the track. But a good way to start is with a good load of cash to tempt the talent in.

RACECAR
Actually, Dallara only built the monoque for both the GT-One and the Audi R8 as well as the R10 and R15. They didn't construct the cars.


And call me crazy, but I think Dassault might have had abit of a helping hand in the 908 as well.
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No, but the point is Toyota can presumably build their own monocoques in Cologne. As far as I know, they can design and produce almost every single piece of the car, as they did for F1. This must help a lot in making the whole outfit a much more cohesive unit. Thats assuming Toyota don't screw up their organisation like they did in F1 - though perhaps their committee in Tokyo works better for Le Mans.
 
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Ardius
Money pays for the talented personalities. Money pays for the best facilities in the world. Money pays for windtunnel hours, engine development, testing, the best mechanics, designers, engineers, drivers...

Money obviously isn't everything, but it helps a lot. Even in F1. Look at BrawnGP.

But obviously the difference between Ferrari and Red Bull is not money but talent. How can you decide though that Toyota does or doesn't have the talent? The only way to find out is when they hit the track. But a good way to start is with a good load of cash to tempt the talent in.



No, but the point is Toyota can presumably build their own monocoques in Cologne. As far as I know, they can design and produce almost every single piece of the car, as they did for F1. This must help a lot in making the whole outfit a much more cohesive unit. Thats assuming Toyota don't screw up their organisation like they did in F1 - though perhaps their committee in Tokyo works better for Le Mans.
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Yes money does buy all that, but money doesn't make talent. Talent is what I'm saying is needed. Also Brawn GP didn't have all that money they are claimed to have from the start, and you see that with the cuts in payouts to all staff, and the drivers. The issue I have here that was solved a while ago with me and another poster is that money with wind tunnels and all of that stuff is great but doesn't make a fast car. It helps but with out the talent to drive and more so build a car like no other then all you've done is throw money at a problem but not really solve it. Same issue Toyota had in F1 same with Honda as well. Also if Toyota did give lots of money to a Techincal Director (Mike Gascoyne) one with no real success and paid a claimed $8 million per year and was still beat by lesser paid Newey and Brawn who at that time were very talented and successful directors. The point is we're glad Toyota is back in the racing scene, but if they don't win much it wont be a suprise especially seeing how in recent they didn't have the talent.
 
Latest Autosport (print version) has interviewed Toshiaki Kino****a* (president of Toyota Motorsport). There are no direct quotes really, but Autosport says that it might be a low key affair next year with modest expectations, even with the possibility of running only one car. They want to learn first and real goals are set beyond 2012. Low expectations are partly because of the previous failures (LM & F1) and the delayed go-ahead due the earthquake. Autosport also thinks the engine is a development of the 3.4L Rebellion engine.

Part of this could be Autosport's speculation just based on the interview, I guess. They do underline that nothing has been decided yet.

* argh @ dirty word checking, replace ! with i.
 
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Paulie Walnuts
Latest Autosport (print version) has interviewed Toshiaki Kino****a* (president of Toyota Motorsport). There are no direct quotes really, but Autosport says that it might be a low key affair next year with modest expectations, even with the possibility of running only one car. They want to learn first and real goals are set beyond 2012. Low expectations are partly because of the previous failures (LM & F1) and the delayed go-ahead due the earthquake. Autosport also thinks the engine is a development of the 3.4L Rebellion engine.

Part of this could be Autosport's speculation just based on the interview, I guess. They do underline that nothing has been decided yet.

* argh @ dirty word checking, replace ! with i.
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^ See that's how you manage a team, you don't throw money down a hole, and I'm glad that they "said" that they failed at LM and F1 in the past because it's true. Now people can stop arguing that Toyota will do just fine. It's smart to square up who you're facing before you just dive in head first.
 

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