Toyota Supra (A90)

[mustafur]

The point he is making is buying a used car doesn't fill toyota's pocket it fills the used car dealers pocket. Unless its bought new or you somehow buy oem parts directly from toyota you aren't really giving them sales

Servicing at a Toyota dealer does though(Your money does to Toyota Dealer > That money keeps that dealer afloat > they can then Continue Franchisee Payments to Toyota).

 

[Sage Ages]

Looking back at the C4 Corvette, I'm honestly not that surprised that it got clapped by the MkIV as far as acceleration goes. Only 300hp out of an LT1 Vette and longer gearing. The ZR1 does look like it'll beat out the Supra eventually (I'm seeing a lot of conflicting info over which car is faster in a quarter mile) but that doesn't change the fact that it's horribly overpriced in comparison.

I don't mean to take anything away from the Supra as it's certainly an impressive piece of hardware. I think this just shows how far behind the Corvette was at the time. Makes me wonder if the C5 stacked up any better.

 

[McLaren]

Servicing at a Toyota dealer does though(Your money does to Toyota Dealer > That money keeps that dealer afloat > they can then Continue Franchisee Payments to Toyota).

Service side money keeps the dealer afloat by paying salaries, benefits, and operating costs for the dealership. New Car Sales/Orders is what keeps the relationship. If you can't move units, the manufacturer is going to cut ties.

 

[Tornado]

That's my response to most of you since its clear you all got little to no experience with this car or sports cars in general.

I own one of the direct competitors it had on the market at the time. In about 5 months I plan on having the one that was probably related to Toyota completely giving up on selling the Supra in America entirely. The person you quoted owns a Boxster. A bunch of the people in this thread are actually journalists. Tell us more about how we don't have any experience with sports cars in general.

Oh I thought you were talking about the new one. I don't know anything about that ZR1 but if its slower than a car with nearly 100 hp less then that's pretty embarrassing.

Looking back at the C4 Corvette, I'm honestly not that surprised that it got clapped by the MkIV as far as acceleration goes. Only 300hp out of an LT1 Vette and longer gearing. The ZR1 does look like it'll beat out the Supra eventually (I'm seeing a lot of conflicting info over which car is faster in a quarter mile) but that doesn't change the fact that it's horribly overpriced in comparison.

The ZR-1 is a very hard car to launch and isn't geared very well for 0-60 runs either (you need up upshift to second at like 57 or 56, after loosing the clutch just right at something like 1400 RPM? That was as good as I was able to figure it out when I played with one, and the rear tires still skittered). On a good day someone with an LT1 Corvette would be able to match one if you didn't get it right (which certainly didn't help Chevrolet shift ZR-1s). There was a pretty small list at the time that could reliably do sub-5 second times without AWD anyway.




What he's neglecting to mention is that the test noted that they were having numbers all over the place that year with ZR-1s; and the numbers they had were more in line with that of a better LT-1 or an LT-4 instead. That doesn't speak well for Chevrolet's production tolerances, but it's hardly as if every Supra was in another time zone of performance from the normal C4/RX-7/300ZX either. They were all very comparable to each other, with the 300ZX usually bringing up the rear and the C4/Supra generally trading blows at the front. It was when the C4 being a willowy squeaky car that was a decade old at that point was taken into account that made it fall back overall in tests to the competition. Not its performance.

Makes me wonder if the C5 stacked up any better.

The C5 shredded the Supra. It was a significantly better car by every measure than the C4 that the Supra generally made go down to the driver when it was competing against.

 

[Grandea GTR]

One wonders if a G8 would be considered a sports car.

On topic.

What I'm not understanding with people and the A80 is that as far as I know, the A80 was designed to be moreso a GT car than that of a hardcore sports car like the GT-R. I'm guessing because the GT-R exists, people expect way more than what the Supra is intended to deliver?

 

[CarGuru]

Neither of these sources say this, though.


This states manufacturers are paying to read the surveys.

It does appear to be highly questioned on what is defined as a "problem". But, your first source dictates it has gone both ways.

None of you what shared though, provides the evidence of why BMW & Toyota both have equal scores, and neither source claims either manufacturer paid J.D. Power to "say whatever they want".


I can think of 3 members who work in automotive journalism, 1 member who works in the automotive industry with insider knowledge of Nissan, and others who are/were sports car owners. There's plenty of experience in this thread. Your claim to fame seems to rely on you buying a Supra 11 years after it ended production....

By a tiny margin. Wait til' some actual track times come out before bench racing 0-60 times as the end-all.

The same Ferraris everybody whooped on? The 348, Mondial, & 456 were not exactly highlights of Ferrari's history. It took the NSX for Ferrari to change its tune & build the F355.

For what it's worth, most of these supercar killer reviews seem focused on the Mk. IV's incredible acceleration at the time. It would be interesting to see some lap time comparisons against the 348, 911 Turbo, & ZR1 of the era.

Neither of these sources say this, though.


This states manufacturers are paying to read the surveys.

It does appear to be highly questioned on what is defined as a "problem". But, your first source dictates it has gone both ways.

None of you what shared though, provides the evidence of why BMW & Toyota both have equal scores, and neither source claims either manufacturer paid J.D. Power to "say whatever they want".


I can think of 3 members who work in automotive journalism, 1 member who works in the automotive industry with insider knowledge of Nissan, and others who are/were sports car owners. There's plenty of experience in this thread. Your claim to fame seems to rely on you buying a Supra 11 years after it ended production....

By a tiny margin. Wait til' some actual track times come out before bench racing 0-60 times as the end-all.

The same Ferraris everybody whooped on? The 348, Mondial, & 456 were not exactly highlights of Ferrari's history. It took the NSX for Ferrari to change its tune & build the F355.

For what it's worth, most of these supercar killer reviews seem focused on the Mk. IV's incredible acceleration at the time. It would be interesting to see some lap time comparisons against the 348, 911 Turbo, & ZR1 of the era.

My bad, I didn't mean the "say whatever they want" part literally, just the fact that manufacturers will pay a lot of money to be able to mention their awards more often, no matter how useless they may be (ie "initial quality").

As for the BMW and Toyota part, there's obviously no way I can find out how each of them got those awards/scores. That was all up to how they contacted JD Power and how much they paid to get those said scores from surveys or however they did it lol. I was just trying to explain that that is how they get these results in the first place. That info wouldn't go out the public obviously. Some companies used to use JD Power a lot in the past but no so much anymore, Toyota is a good example. So that may help explain the BMW and Toyota being equal part a little bit at least.

Like I said, you can look up and find more sources and how JD Power works more in detail. But I promise you that it is not a reliable source to depend on.

 

[05XR8]

One wonders if a G8 would be considered a sports car.

On topic.

What I'm not understanding with people and the A80 is that as far as I know, the A80 was designed to be moreso a GT car than that of a hardcore sports car like the GT-R. I'm guessing because the GT-R exists, people expect way more than what the Supra is intended to deliver?

The FT-1, from some posts in this thread, is what most of those memebers were hoping would have been.
The camouflage cars, were continuing to show less of that. Fears/dislike/letdown/hate/whatever upset feelings, realised at the reveal.

I'm not happy with the the design direction of the Civic. I own an EK1. Even owned an EP3 Si. The FK is nothing like the EK9. However, that look of the original Type R, was long gone when the FD2 sedan came out.
What has carried on from the first, is the red H. Every generation of Type R is still worthy of that emblem.

The A90 is a change of the times. Supra has always been a global car. I feel Toyota have played it super safe reintroducing the Supra nameplate. As mentioned throughout this thread, platform sharing is what Toyota are doing with their sports cars today. I'm embracing it.

 

[Greycap]

The FT-1, from some posts in this thread, is what most of those memebers were hoping would have been.

The FT-1 indeed is probably the main problem. It was shown as the concept, the new direction the Supra would be taking, and in the end out came what looks like a Z4 Coupe with a FT-1-esque bodykit and a lot of added bloatiness.

 

[05XR8]

The FT-1 indeed is probably the main problem. It was shown as the concept, the new direction the Supra would be taking, and in the end out came what looks like a Z4 Coupe with a FT-1-esque bodykit and a lot of added bloatiness.

Well, it's here now. The aftermarket may come through, for those that aren't satisfied with its factory looks. That's usually how the aftermarket works. A company makes a kit they believe will make a car look way better than stock. Sometimes it could be just a small detail. Sometimes a complete makeover.
Again, I feel it's still a good base to start with.

 

[Grandea GTR]

Ah well, if we ever to come across a high-performance GT car, or something bigger than what the A90 is now, I guess we'll have to turn to Lexus for that.

 

[Beeblebrox237]

For what it's worth, most of these supercar killer reviews seem focused on the Mk. IV's incredible acceleration at the time. It would be interesting to see some lap time comparisons against the 348, 911 Turbo, & ZR1 of the era.

Here's a race at Tsukuba against some contemporary rivals:

The stock MkIV is left in last behind the Viper, both quite a ways behind everyone else. The VeilSide MkIV did rather well, beating the 456, 911 Turbo, and RUF CTR.

In regards to the new Supra, I think Toyota was smart in targeting a slightly different market than with the A80. Relatively speaking, it's more affordable, and represents only a modest performance increase, but it's still plenty fast and competes in a segment that sells in higher volumes. Think about the 718S vs 964 Turbo; it would probably be faster around a track by a considerable margin, despite being less expensive even without accounting for inflation.

 

[mustafur]

Here's a race at Tsukuba against some contemporary rivals:

The stock MkIV is left in last behind the Viper, both quite a ways behind everyone else. The VeilSide MkIV did rather well, beating the 456, 911 Turbo, and RUF CTR.

In regards to the new Supra, I think Toyota was smart in targeting a slightly different market than with the A80. Relatively speaking, it's more affordable, and represents only a modest performance increase, but it's still plenty fast and competes in a segment that sells in higher volumes. Think about the 718S vs 964 Turbo; it would probably be faster around a track by a considerable margin, despite being less expensive even without accounting for inflation.

What is interesting though is lap time wise the Stock Mk4 wasn't the slowest(456, viper and 911 where slower on the timed lap qualify), the problem in Tsukuba is in race conditions it heavily favours the more powerful car as the primary place to overtake is on the straight, and it's quite easy to defend.

 

[Tornado]

The transmission in that Viper was not being very nice at all.

 

[Supaboost]

Everything I've read suggests a difference of 0.1-0.2s for a base Vette. If you wanna pony up the cash for options, then you'll start to see some larger numbers.

I wouldn't call a $5000 difference between the two the "same price".

4.1 for the mkv and 3.7 for the vett. Good chance ill be a full second slower in the 1/4 given such early disadvantage and the hp.

So about what 10% price difference for 35% ish more power ? seems like a bargain.

The C5 shredded the Supra. It was a significantly better car by every measure than the C4 that the Supra generally made go down to the driver when it was competing against.

You hope ?

Motor trend tested them in a shoot out and they split the 10 tests 5 each, with the c5 losing the road course.

 

[Sage Ages]

4.1 for the mkv and 3.7 for the vett.

If you would take the time to read the fine print, you'd realize GM's quoted 0-60 time is for an automatic with the Z51 package. If you want all that, you're dumping another $7000 into it.

 

[mustafur]

If a Base Auto Corvette doesn't demolish the Supra on the 1/4 I would be surprised.

Supra doesn't have that much power and it's claims are hard to believe without evidence.

 

[SlipZtrEm]

The same Ferraris everybody whooped on? The 348, Mondial, & 456 were not exactly highlights of Ferrari's history.

Hey now, don’t speak poorly of what remains one of the best looking Ferraris of the last 30 years!

4.1 for the mkv and 3.7 for the vett. Good chance ill be a full second slower in the 1/4 given such early disadvantage and the hp.

So about what 10% price difference for 35% ish more power ? seems like a bargain.

Sure, if all you're concerned with are power figures. The Vette has pretty much always had that advantage on lock compared to any two-seaters in its price range.

I'm sure the Miata will flop because it's less powerful than other cars for the same price... wait.

 

[Supaboost]

Hey now, don’t speak poorly of what remains one of the best looking Ferraris of the last 30 years!

Sure, if all you're concerned with are power figures. The Vette has pretty much always had that advantage on lock compared to any two-seaters in its price range.

I'm sure the Miata will flop because it's less powerful than other cars for the same price... wait.

Tell me is the Vett or miata more the mkvs competition ?

More or less same price same segment but 335hp while the other 455hp.

People can make all the excuses they want, mkv is looking like it'll get smoked by most of its competition. Toyota best hope nissan takes their sweet time with the next Z. I have a feeling once its released it will shame and embarrassed the mkv while costing less.

 

[Disco_Volante]

Tell me is the Vett or miata more the mkvs competition ?

More or less same price same segment but 335hp while the other 455hp.

People can make all the excuses they want, mkv is looking like it'll get smoked by most of its competition. Toyota best hope nissan takes their sweet time with the next Z. I have a feeling once its released it will shame and embarrassed the mkv while costing less.

The point









You

 

[SlipZtrEm]

Tell me is the Vett or miata more the mkvs competition ?

More or less same price same segment but 335hp while the other 455hp.

People can make all the excuses they want, mkv is looking like it'll get smoked by most of its competition. Toyota best hope nissan takes their sweet time with the next Z. I have a feeling once its released it will shame and embarrassed the mkv while costing less.

You're missing the point — possibly intentionally.

I didn't say the Miata is a Supra competitor. I'm saying it's quite weak on paper, in terms of horsepower, compared to other cars in its price range. Yet that hasn't stopped it from selling well.

For an in-house comparison, look no further than the GT86 (at least up here in Canada). It's more money than a few hot hatches that would utterly destroy it in a straight line. Amazingly, people aren't buying it for 1/4 mile runs...

 

[Sage Ages]

People can make all the excuses they want, mkv is looking like it'll get smoked by most of its competition.

Just curious. Aside from the Corvette, which competition are we talking about here?

 

[Tornado]

You hope ?

Nope. I don't need to cherry pick a single unsourced test of a C5 being a better performing car than an A80 like you did for an A80 over a C4 ZR-1. Because I know of this test you are referencing is as well, and I'm similarly unimpressed with you bringing it up as proof of how astounding the A80 was without any of the context actually provided in the test.



This isn't hard, so there's no need to try so hard to make it so. The A80 was a really good competitor to the cars that were on the market when it came out, offset somewhat by how quickly its price spiraled out of control. It's even pretty fair as an argument to say that was even the best of that rough "segment," especially with everything else but the RX-7 getting on in years by that point. That doesn't mean it also needs to stretch to be just as good compared to cars where its age was also becoming apparent. No one gives the NSX crap for not quite measuring up to the F355 like after showing up the 348, so its odd that you are so concerned with making sure the Supra seems better than any contemporary Corvette ever was.

 

[Supaboost]

Just curious. Aside from the Corvette, which competition are we talking about here?

How about equally priced Mustang or Camaro, those things will maul the mkv.

You're missing the point — possibly intentionally.

I didn't say the Miata is a Supra competitor. I'm saying it's quite weak on paper, in terms of horsepower, compared to other cars in its price range. Yet that hasn't stopped it from selling well.

For an in-house comparison, look no further than the GT86 (at least up here in Canada). It's more money than a few hot hatches that would utterly destroy it in a straight line. Amazingly, people aren't buying it for 1/4 mile runs...

I just think your point is irrelevant.

Gt86 is no mystery, people wanted a rwd sport car from Toyota for a long time.

Nope. I don't need to cherry pick a single unsourced test of a C5 being a better performing car than an A80 like you did for an A80 over a C4 ZR-1. Because I know of this test you are referencing is as well, and I'm similarly unimpressed with you bringing it up as proof of how astounding the A80 was without any of the context actually provided in the test.



This isn't hard, so there's no need to try so hard to make it so. The A80 was a really good competitor to the cars that were on the market when it came out, offset somewhat by how quickly its price spiraled out of control. It's even pretty fair as an argument to say that it might have even been the best of that rough "segment," especially with everything else but the RX-7 getting on in years by that point. That doesn't mean it also needs to stretch to be a competitor to cars where its age was also becoming apparent. No one gives the NSX crap for not measuring up to the F355 like after showing up the 348, so its odd that you are so concerned with making sure the Supra seems better than any contemporary Corvette ever was.

Couldn't care less about impressing you of all people. But i clearly proved you wrong given it was you who claimed the c5 shreaded the Mkiv, at least man up and own up.

 

[ImaRobot]

I just think your point is irrelevant.

Well, that's a convenient way to say "I didn't get it."

 

[SlipZtrEm]

I just think your point is irrelevant.

Good try.

Gt86 is no mystery, people wanted a rwd sport car from Toyota for a long time.

And people wanted the Supra name back. Sure, some diehard MKIV fans will decry the loss of the 2JZ and its dyno-run queen status, but that's not the only potential clientele out there. Thinking it is is delusional.

Given the BMW connection, I think this is somewhat pertinent:

https://www.autocar.co.uk/car-news/motoring/1-series-owners-think-its-fwd

A lot of people won't know and/or care about the BMW-ness underneath.

 

[Grandea GTR]

I'm thinking someone here is forgetting that horsepower isn't the name of the game anymore.

 

[Sage Ages]

How about equally priced Mustang or Camaro, those things will maul the mkv.

Those things have certainly gotten my attention. Anything else noteworthy?

 

[mustafur]

The Average BMW 1 Series buyer is the exact same as the Average A90 Supra buyer you heard it here first.

The car matters, a Sports car that's likely not suitable for daily usage is going to attract a certain kind of customer, one that is likely going to know which wheels are driving the car.

 

[Grandea GTR]

What also matters is who is gonna buy it...

Definitely not the majority of internet critics who are crying for another A80 who, really can't afford anything new.

 

[kikie]

Why do people get upset over cars?