Transgender Thread.

[TexRex]

I don't get why people get so offended just cause I don't agree with their choice.

Respectfully, I have difficulty believing it's as simple as that.

I'm not claiming to know the manner in which you specifically compose yourself in person-to-person social interactions, but we as humans "say" a great deal more than what comes out of our mouths and others are capable of picking up on that.

Beyond that, reasonable people aren't so inclined to become unhinged at the mere mention of something about them. That said, I acknowledge that not everyone is reasonable and interactions with those who are not are more likely to stick out in our memories.

Oh and by the way, I too was very much of the belief that Bruce's (he was still Bruce then) decision to "change" was a publicity grab.

Most underrated show ever! I watched that one and only season about 3 times!

It was an awful, awful, awful, awful show...entertaining, but awful nonetheless. Much like American Pie by which it was heavily influenced.

And there were two seasons...well, sans two episodes. Eugene Levy reprised his role as "P P DOC" (for those unfamiliar, he was a urologist and that was his license plate) and the cast made a habit of breaking the fourth wall and remarking on the fact that they weren't picked up for a second season until the last moment. It went downhill after the first season, which is saying something.

 

[Famine]

You have to take in account that the USA is a different culture and are more prone to binary thought (good/bad guy, black/white, left/right, democrats/republican, winner/loser) then europeans.

That's extraordinarily arrogant. Also I'm not American.

Given the concerns I raised last time @Famine I thought you might air better Judgement in future posts within this thread. What might be seen as a joke by some, isnt always how it will seem to others. So when I see you making jokes at the expense of people who are gender fluid, and see @Johnnypenso making jokes at the expense of intersex people. Yeh, its going to get my back up. And its also going to make me thing "is it really worth my time to try and open a dialog with people in this thread again".

Show me where my joke was at anyone's expense. Who was the target? Who was even mentioned within the joke - which was nothing more than a play on words (like this one, much earlier in the thread) about words?


And that takes us right back to 2016:

Has anyone here treated you like dirt because you're transgender? Has anyone here treated any transgender person like dirt because they're transgender?

I don't even know if I know any transgender people. I probably do, but they haven't made that identity known to me. Why would they need to? Why would I care?

Perhaps you could stop acting as if the people on this site have wronged you for your dysphoria and start acting like we're reasonable people having a reasonable discussion, without the overblown emotional investment.

Oh, and one of the people who was actually posting on the edge of bigotry has subsequently been banned. By me, I might add. And a few more times since.


Right from the first page you posted as if there was nothing but hostility from GTPlanet members and staff towards the transgender state. Your attitude from the very start was as if this site and its members had actively participated in transphobic abuse. Your third post in the thread deliberately deleted a section of quote to turn it from a proposition to a statement (about Jenner). Then you called the member that had posted it a troll. Then you claimed they were intolerant for asking a question that covered all possible sex/gender combinations - what does it mean to feel male/female without invoking stereotypes about males and females?

Every contribution you've made to this thread has been either highly defensive for no reason, on the attack for no reason based on perceived slight, often against members who simply don't care about the contents of anyone's underpants apart from their own (and a significant other). Yeah, sure, there's one or two people in there who do equate transgender with homosexual and paedophile (as there are people who equate homosexual with paedophile; as there are people who equate male with paedophile - but then we've got decades of priests, house masters and scout leaders helping on that one), but it's not me, it's not @Danoff, and it's not GTPlanet. I was baffled by the whole toilet conversation (and still am; nobody takes all their clothes off in a public toilet so I have no idea why it matters what they have down there), and you laid into me for it; your eventual justification was that some had mentioned paedophiles in connection with gender neutral bathrooms. You then decided I had "participated in" that and quit the thread for nearly six months after I asked you to quote me doing so and you couldn't.

I offered you numerous opportunities to report anything, from anyone, anywhere in the thread to the staff. Your excuse was that you couldn't be bothered because I'd immediately bury it (as I'm apparently transphobic). I pointed out that I cannot do that as all staff, including the site owner, see all reports and your excuse was that the site owner would protect us - suddenly dragging @Jordan into your conspiracy fantasy of site-wide transphobia for no good reason.

So yes, I decided to take it to twitter; and to tag GTP in that thread I posted. Because to me, that seemed the best place for me to approach this subject.

It is entirely unshocking that you felt the need to continue lying about this thread, defaming this site, me and other members on Twitter. And the irony of it all is that if you'd spent any time on this forum, in O&CE, at all, you'd know that @Danoff and I are two of the members most likely to support your choice to do anything you want, change anything you want and take anything you want if it's all on your own time and in the privacy of your own home/pants. We literally don't care. But I'm transphobic for never noticing anyone trans in the men's bogs, and he is for asking what it means to feel male/female anyway.

And in your rush to return to your ways of believing we're transphobic and a safe harbour for transphobes, you've missed this post where I chided someone for appalling and actually offensive language - which part of a nice discussion we all had in late 2017 where nobody else insulted anybody. It seems that this thread moderates itself to a nice middle ground when there isn't someone poking everyone with a transphobic stick.


I wonder if, while you're so busy saying how offensive everything said in this thread is to transgender individuals/community, you've ever considered how offensive it is to call transphobia on people who are not transphobic? I mean, it probably doesn't count because nobody's ever hit or thrown things at us, or been mean to us on public transport for not being transphobic, or there'll be some justification for why you can be offensive about other people on entirely fraudulent grounds.


Now, I strongly suggest that if you are still labouring under the misapprehension that I, or any of the staff, or any of our long-term members are transphobic, you open a PM dialogue with @Jordan. I hope that you do, but doubt it.

 

[PocketZeven]

Respectfully, I have difficulty believing it's as simple as that.

I'm not claiming to know the manner in which you specifically compose yourself in person-to-person social interactions, but we as humans "say" a great deal more than what comes out of our mouths and others are capable of picking up on that.

Beyond that, reasonable people aren't so inclined to become unhinged at the mere mention of something about them. That said, I acknowledge that not everyone is reasonable and interactions with those who are not are more likely to stick out in our memories.

Oh and by the way, I too was very much of the belief that Bruce's (he was still Bruce then) decision to "change" was a publicity grab.


It was an awful, awful, awful, awful show...entertaining, but awful nonetheless. Much like American Pie by which it was heavily influenced.

And there were two seasons...well, sans two episodes. Eugene Levy reprised his role as "P P DOC" (for those unfamiliar, he was a urologist and that was his license plate) and the cast made a habit of breaking the fourth wall and remarking on the fact that they weren't picked up for a second season until the last moment. It went downhill after the first season, which is saying something.

Awfully great in my opinion. I remembered it incorrectly. It indeed was 1 1/2 seasons, but I liked the show for what it was. Remember this was one of the first shows with an asian character as one of the main characters in a comedy show. It did a lot of things very unique and there was definately chemistry between the guys.

 

[Ialyrn]

You then decided I had "participated in" that and quit the thread for nearly six months after I asked you to quote me doing so and you couldn't.

You seem to keep forgetting that I was NOT the only openly transgender person posting within this very thread at the time, and pointing out some things come across as transphobic. The reason I had to back away from the thread, was because things got far too heated between us both; and neither of us where capable of staying objective at that moment in time.

This post, as an example. (not quoting directly out of respect to the poster, as they are, as far as I am aware, finished with this thread. And I do not wish to drag them back into it.) https://www.gtplanet.net/forum/threads/transgender-thread.345206/page-18#post-11461741

You disregarded complaints from 3 openly transgender people, because in your opinion; we where wrong. You deemed what had been spoken about, to be wholly appropriate by your standards.

Show me where my joke was at anyone's expense. Who was the target? Who was even mentioned within the joke - which was nothing more than a play on words (like this one, much earlier in the thread) about words?

Your joke wasnt aimed at any particular individual, it was aimed at gender fluidity as a whole. I found it in poor taste, the same as @Johnnypenso joke. But if you cant understand how something that might seem amusing to you (and others), might not be amusing to everyone. That is in and of itself a problem. And its those sort of "jokes" that lower the tone in here, which, if you had shown all of my twitter thread. I very clearly what I was talking about. Its about a lack of respect, and a lack of empathy.

I will openly admit I went OTT the last time we got into this, I wont hide from that. Im human, I make mistakes; just like any one else in this world. But please, go back and read through things again. Humour me, and try to see things from the perspective of a transgender person. It wasn't till later on in this thread, that I started to get defensive. And equally, took up the offensive position that I eventually did.

In all fairness, I popped back into this thread around December 2016 believe; and I had a fairly good exchange with @Danoff in regards to how bad gender dysphoria can get for some people. An exchange that did not get heated if memory serves. Or result in any fighting at all. It was a pretty good exchange of thoughts.

I also very clearly acknowledged that you do uphold the rules on this forums in a previous posting in this thread, I have seen you take action in the homosexuality thread. But you have been very lenient in this thread. Even if you have since dealt with some issues in here, I haven't exactly been checking in on this thread a whole lot. So I am sorry I missed those. If you have truly taken action against things you felt crossed a line, than that is good.

Either way, you previously told 3 openly transgender individuals that informed you some of the things in this thread come across as hate speech. 3 people who did multiple quote trains to show you these things, and you told us we where wrong. Told us to supply more proof, even though you only had to go back through the thread. But we did do a fair bit of leg work, in all fairness.

And lest not forget, while you have anger at been referred to as bigoted. That I was not the first person to use that word in this thread. In fact, Danoff was the first to use it, on page one of this thread.

It's implicitly bigoted to insist that you should be called a girl when you "identify" as a girl but are a guy.

People of one biological sex who transition to the opposing gender and insist on using the opposite pronouns, where implied to be bigots right off the bat. And I feel my response to Danoffs first post was very reasonable, given the opening material.

You also always seemed to forget that I made some very reasonable posts in this thread, trying to explain how things can be seen as hateful in as much detail as I was able.

Ah, but here is the thing. Continuing to treat me as male and use male pronouns is considered highly disrespectful, and considered as 'transphobic' in the eyes of the law where I live (United Kingdom). And even though that is an awful word, it does not make it any less valid. The real fact of the matter here, is that this is exactly what @Danoff is being, as transphobia is described as a range of antagonistic attitudes and feelings towards transsexuality, transsexuals, and transgender individuals. His views and beliefs on the matter have actually been pretty darn antagonistic. It is no different to turning around to a person who is gay and using a derogatory slur towards them for being so, or adhering to a belief that they choose to be gay while in a gay persons presence. And the same with with using a derogatory word towards a person of a different ethnicity to yourself.

It can also be very hurtful for the person on the receiving end. You have to understand something here, that although suffering with gender dysphoria is not a mental illness in and off itself, it can be the underlying cause of them; such as severe depression. The recommended treatment route of gender dysphoria is one to two years of real life living in the gender role that fits you gender identity, with HRT beginning after that time period. Then a further 2 years before surgery can even be considered. Those 4 years are already an exceptionally stressful time for a transgender individual, and to have people insist on referring to you and treating to you as your biological or physical sex during that time; is not only hateful, but actually quite damaging to the transgender person state of mind.

We already have so much hassle as is, I have friends who have lost everything and everyone, and on top of that have been verbally abused, physically assaulted, raped. Some even have to resort to prostitution just to earn money for a roof over their heads and to be able to eat. The vast majority of transgender individuals live far below the poverty.
There is even a day of remembrance for trans people who have either committed suicide, or who have been murdered.

All we want from people is a little human decency, and if you can not address us as with the gender pronouns that conform to our gender identity, then just use gender natural ones. There are plenty of them about. There is no need for anyone to be an outright tit towards another person just because they do not conform to your view of the world.

I also went so far as to explain why I choose to be open about being transgender.

I would love nothing more than to do that to be quite honest, but at the same time there is so much hate towards all of us, that there needs to be people such as myself who are willing to be open about everything; so that we can help those in need of it. I would much rather out myself as transgender, because I can offer up advice to someone going through the same, give them information that they will need to aid them in accessing the help required to progress through the system safely. To try to discourage the practices of self medicating HRT (which is something that happens far too much), as the adverse effects can be disastrous. Case and point, I have only ever had NHS prescriptions for HRT (oestrogen 4mg daily and a 3 monthly Zolodex sub-dermal implant); and which is closely monitored with a full blood workup to check liver and kidney functions (as well as other things), and I have suffered adverse effects in the form of a DVT and Pulmonary Embolism (blood clot in the lung which breached and resulted in me coughing up blood). Which although are rare complications of HRT, can and do happen due to the nature of the oestrogen therepy, and are very deadly if not treated in time. As it stands, I need to now take a blood thinner indefinitely; in the hopes that the PE will be absorbed into the body, and so I do not end up with a case of spontaneous dead.

So if my experiences as a transgender individual can help guide someone also going through the same, then I am more than happy to out myself as being transgender.

The thing is Famine, we will probably never see eye to eye on any of this. That was made apparent last time we got into this. And in all honesty, I really dont want to get into another fight with you over it. I accept I went overboard last time, I let my personal feelings get to me. I got upset, and I got angry. I still feel some of the things spoken about in this thread, do very much air on the side of being transphobic. But this time isnt about that, its purely about a continuing cycle of what appears to be ridicule and derision for the basis of jokes. That is why my twitter thread didn't say anyone was been transphobic or bigoted, but it was definitely implied that the material I posted about; was highly insensitive. The insensitivity is what got my back up last time, and what has yet again annoyed me. But as said, things just got heated previously; and become less objective.

You obviously read my twitter thread, you posted a picture of a single post. It was more than a singular post on the matter though. I never once said you or Johnny where transphobic or bigoted within that thread, I also didnt name names.

It was a thread posted in pure frustration, because it just seems like nothing had changed in here.

Right or wrong to post my frustrations with this forum thread on twitter, can you really blame me after the previous experiences of been an active participant in this thread?

Either way, I am not hiding from anything. My twitter feed is as public as this forum thread, anyone can read it.

 

[Tornado]

So yes, I decided to take it to twitter; and to tag GTP in that thread I posted. Because to me, that seemed the best place for me to approach this subject.

No one who regularly posts in this forum is oblivious enough to social media to take that statement at face value, and it's rather insulting for you to act like it is. Say what it really was: It seemed the best place for you to do so because you wanted an echo chamber to vent at, and GTP was neither adequate enough in the amount of people in lockstep with you nor wide reaching enough for anything you want to claim things about to be noticed and spread. I'm a staff member on a big fan forum too, and I know the playbook of people dumping arguments so they can take potshots on social media as well. "Take it to twitter" invariably means "I wanted to find people who were in such a rush to agree with me that they don't care whether or not what I'm saying is like I think it is, so long as it ought to be true."



It's no different from when Trump does the same thing.

 

[Ialyrn]

No one who regularly posts in this forum is oblivious enough to social media to take that statement at face value, and it's rather insulting for you to act like it is. Say what it really was: It seemed the best place for you to do so because you wanted an echo chamber, and GTP was neither adequate enough in the amount of people in lockstep with you nor wide reaching enough for anything you want to claim things about to be noticed. I'm a staff member on a big fan forum too, and I know the playbook of people dumping arguments so they can take potshots on social media as well. "Take it to twitter" invariably means "I wanted to find people who were in such a rush to agree with me that they don't care whether or not what I'm saying is true, so long as it ought to be true."



It's no different from when Trump does the same thing.

Feel free to read my twitter feed. Most of what you will find on there, is related to artwork, cooking/baking, video games, and interacting with friends on mostly day to day things. So make up your own mind on if your view is correct or not.

https://twitter.com/ialyrn

 

[PocketZeven]

You seem to keep forgetting that I was NOT the only openly transgender person posting within this very thread at the time, and pointing out some things come across as transphobic. The reason I had to back away from the thread, was because things got far too heated between us both; and neither of us where capable of staying objective at that moment in time.

This post, as an example. (not quoting directly out of respect to the poster, as they are, as far as I am aware, finished with this thread. And I do not wish to drag them back into it.) https://www.gtplanet.net/forum/threads/transgender-thread.345206/page-18#post-11461741

You disregarded complaints from 3 openly transgender people, because in your opinion; we where wrong. You deemed what had been spoken about, to be wholly appropriate by your standards.



Your joke wasnt aimed at any particular individual, it was aimed at gender fluidity as a whole. I found it in poor taste, the same as @Johnnypenso joke. But if you cant understand how something that might seem amusing to you (and others), might not be amusing to everyone. That is in and of itself a problem. And its those sort of "jokes" that lower the tone in here, which, if you had shown all of my twitter thread. I very clearly what I was talking about. Its about a lack of respect, and a lack of empathy.

I will openly admit I went OTT the last time we got into this, I wont hide from that. Im human, I make mistakes; just like any one else in this world. But please, go back and read through things again. Humour me, and try to see things from the perspective of a transgender person. It wasn't till later on in this thread, that I started to get defensive. And equally, took up the offensive position that I eventually did.

In all fairness, I popped back into this thread around December 2016 believe; and I had a fairly good exchange with @Danoff in regards to how bad gender dysphoria can get for some people. An exchange that did not get heated if memory serves. Or result in any fighting at all. It was a pretty good exchange of thoughts.

I also very clearly acknowledged that you do uphold the rules on this forums in a previous posting in this thread, I have seen you take action in the homosexuality thread. But you have been very lenient in this thread. Even if you have since dealt with some issues in here, I haven't exactly been checking in on this thread a whole lot. So I am sorry I missed those. If you have truly taken action against things you felt crossed a line, than that is good.

Either way, you previously told 3 openly transgender individuals that informed you some of the things in this thread come across as hate speech. 3 people who did multiple quote trains to show you these things, and you told us we where wrong. Told us to supply more proof, even though you only had to go back through the thread. But we did do a fair bit of leg work, in all fairness.

And lest not forget, while you have anger at been referred to as bigoted. That I was not the first person to use that word in this thread. In fact, Danoff was the first to use it, on page one of this thread.



People of one biological sex who transition to the opposing gender and insist on using the opposite pronouns, where implied to be bigots right off the bat. And I feel my response to Danoffs first post was very reasonable, given the opening material.

You also always seemed to forget that I made some very reasonable posts in this thread, trying to explain how things can be seen as hateful in as much detail as I was able.



I also went so far as to explain why I choose to be open about being transgender.



The thing is Famine, we will probably never see eye to eye on any of this. That was made apparent last time we got into this. And in all honesty, I really dont want to get into another fight with you over it. I accept I went overboard last time, I let my personal feelings get to me. I got upset, and I got angry. I still feel some of the things spoken about in this thread, do very much air on the side of being transphobic. But this time isnt about that, its purely about a continuing cycle of what appears to be ridicule and derision for the basis of jokes. That is why my twitter thread didn't say anyone was been transphobic or bigoted, but it was definitely implied that the material I posted about; was highly insensitive. The insensitivity is what got my back up last time, and what has yet again annoyed me. But as said, things just got heated previously; and become less objective.

You obviously read my twitter thread, you posted a picture of a single post. It was more than a singular post on the matter though. I never once said you or Johnny where transphobic or bigoted within that thread, I also didnt name names.

It was a thread posted in pure frustration, because it just seems like nothing had changed in here.

Right or wrong to post my frustrations with this forum thread on twitter, can you really blame me after the previous experiences of been an active participant in this thread?

Either way, I am not hiding from anything. My twitter feed is as public as this forum thread, anyone can read it.

I could not find any hatespeach in the posts from 25th september on. I am very much neutral in this convorsation entering the thread very recently. Racist jokes are also made often too. But you really need to try to understand from what place said joke is coming from. Do not confuse hatespeach with ignorant banter. Having an opposing view does not make someone automatically a bigot.

In my opinion your twitterposts is spreading a lot more hate then anyone I have encountered here. And I have been on the receiving end of some of the guys here with opposing views.

Edit: added opinion

 

[Ialyrn]

I could not find any hatespeach in the posts from 25th september on. I am very much neutral in this convorsation entering the thread very recently. Racist jokes are also made often too. But you really need to try to understand from what place said joke is coming from. Do not confuse hatespeach with ignorant banter. Having an opposing view does not make someone automatically a bigot.

I accept that I am fallible, which is why I admit I went OTT previously within this thread. As stated above, I got angry, and I got upset. I lost my objectivity, and I felt like no one cared that things could be seen as myself and 2 other transgender individuals did. So I left the thread and the forums for a time. But it still remains that earlier on within this thread, there was enough of a trend to make us feel that transphobia was a part of some postings. To the extent that we tried to point it out, and tried to educate. Least, before things turned sour.

I equally admit that I posted that twitter thread in frustration. Again, I am not infallible, I am human. And given things spoken about earlier in this thread, that is why my frustration is so high on this matter. Again, I hope some people will go back and read through the entire thread.

 

[Joey D]

Your joke wasnt aimed at any particular individual, it was aimed at gender fluidity as a whole. I found it in poor taste, the same as @Johnnypenso joke. But if you cant understand how something that might seem amusing to you (and others), might not be amusing to everyone. That is in and of itself a problem. And its those sort of "jokes" that lower the tone in here, which, if you had shown all of my twitter thread. I very clearly what I was talking about. Its about a lack of respect, and a lack of empathy.

Not everything is going to be funny to everyone. Trying to tiptoe around that means that at the end of the day, no one could ever make a joke or even a quip about anything. Joking about something isn't a problem either, especially when its a joke in general and not directly pointed at one particular person.

 

[Famine]

You seem to keep forgetting that I was NOT the only openly transgender person posting within this very thread at the time, and pointing out some things come across as transphobic.

Nope. And I responded to the person you quote explaining why potentially taking offence at things is not a good yardstick for judging what is appropriate. At length.

You disregarded complaints from 3 openly transgender people, because in your opinion; we where wrong. You deemed what had been spoken about, to be wholly appropriate by your standards.

Nope. We deemed the argument that things that you could potentially take offence at was not a good yardstick for judging what is appropriate. It still isn't - and whether the people making that argument were openly transgender or not is irrelevant.

Watch:
I'm very offended that you suggested I forgot things because my dad had a stroke and started to forget things. Therefore what you posted was hateful and I'm going to delete it.

Doesn't work very well, does it?

Your joke wasnt aimed at any particular individual, it was aimed at gender fluidity as a whole.

Nope. Here's the joke I made: "If language is fluid and the meaning of the word "gender" has changed, does that mean it's actually genderfluid?"

The subject of that joke is "language". It's not even mocking anything, and it's not unkind about anything. I can't even make that joke into a version where it's aimed at people. I've tried. The nearest I can get is "Language has evolved to distance sex from gender, because transgender people think gender is fluid." and that's clunkier than a Lada Riva.

Either way, you previously told 3 openly transgender individuals that informed you some of the things in this thread come across as hate speech. 3 people who did multiple quote trains to show you these things, and you told us we where wrong. Told us to supply more proof, even though you only had to go back through the thread. But we did do a fair bit of leg work, in all fairness.

I told you to report things you thought were against our rules. You said you wouldn't because I'd delete the reports immediately. When told I didn't have the ability to do that, you said you wouldn't do it because @Jordan would sweep it under the rug and protect us.

No reports were forthcoming.

You obviously read my twitter thread, you posted a picture of a single post. It was more than a singular post on the matter though. I never once said you or Johnny where transphobic or bigoted within that thread, I also didnt name names.

I can't link the other posts because you chose to swear in the first and they embed as a thread. However, the first two posts say:

"Transgender thread revived on GTPlanetNews again, and its as big of a **** show as it was last time people were actively posting in it. With admins and members yet again making jokes at the expense of people who are transgender, genderfluid, or who are intersex."
"Its absolutely disgusting, and even more vile that one of the most active participants of the derision, is one of your own administration staff. It makes visiting your forums a highly unwelcoming space, when people seem allowed to ridicule others, and with no repercussions."

There's only three of us. @Jordan hasn't posted in this thread, and @SlipZtrEm has posted twice, without mentioning transgender in either post. Then again, no component of any of my posts have been derision of the transgender state...

You then went on to remind us of our own AUP, but despite more than two years of opportunity, the Report queue is still bereft of content from this thread.

The thing is Famine, we will probably never see eye to eye on any of this.

The fact that you don't think you'll ever see "eye to eye on any of this" with someone who thinks transgender people - like anyone else - can do what they like with their own bodies and call themselves anything they want to (for heaven's sakes, both of us are routinely referred to by a made-up screen name; why should wanting to be called "she" instead of "he" be any more trouble than wanting to be called "Famine" instead of "Andrew"? I already made this point earlier in the thread) should all by itself tell you that you are fighting the wrong battle with the wrong targets.


*Oh, but that's not a protected characteristic you say. Well one of the strokes gave him a blue badge while he recovered, and disability very much IS a protected characteristic. This all actually happened, but since he's been dead for 11 years, I'm probably over it. Given that, at the time, we all agreed it was rather good he'd forgotten how to speak as it meant a bit of peace and quiet, there wasn't that much to get over. And that was a joke at his expense and everything.

 

[LeMansAid]

That's the nice thing about being a middle-aged, heterosexual white guy and therefore not subject to any stereotypes. I can go about my day observing countless conversations about all manner of subjects and not feel as though others are talking about me.

Did you just apply a stereotype to a demographic that you claim is not subject to stereotypes?

 

[TexRex]

Did you just apply a stereotype to a demographic that you claim is not subject to stereotypes?

 

[PocketZeven]

Nope. And I responded to the person you quote explaining why potentially taking offence at things is not a good yardstick for judging what is appropriate. At length.

Nope. We deemed the argument that things that you could potentially take offence at was not a good yardstick for judging what is appropriate. It still isn't - and whether the people making that argument were openly transgender or not is irrelevant.

Watch:
I'm very offended that you suggested I forgot things because my dad had a stroke and started to forget things. Therefore what you posted was hateful and I'm going to delete it.

Doesn't work very well, does it?

Nope. Here's the joke I made: "If language is fluid and the meaning of the word "gender" has changed, does that mean it's actually genderfluid?"

The subject of that joke is "language". It's not even mocking anything, and it's not unkind about anything. I can't even make that joke into a version where it's aimed at people. I've tried. The nearest I can get is "Language has evolved to distance sex from gender, because transgender people think gender is fluid." and that's clunkier than a Lada Riva.

I told you to report things you thought were against our rules. You said you wouldn't because I'd delete the reports immediately. When told I didn't have the ability to do that, you said you wouldn't do it because @Jordan would sweep it under the rug and protect us.

No reports were forthcoming.

I can't link the other posts because you chose to swear in the first and they embed as a thread. However, the first two posts say:

"Transgender thread revived on GTPlanetNews again, and its as big of a **** show as it was last time people were actively posting in it. With admins and members yet again making jokes at the expense of people who are transgender, genderfluid, or who are intersex."
"Its absolutely disgusting, and even more vile that one of the most active participants of the derision, is one of your own administration staff. It makes visiting your forums a highly unwelcoming space, when people seem allowed to ridicule others, and with no repercussions."

There's only three of us. @Jordan hasn't posted in this thread, and @SlipZtrEm has posted twice, without mentioning transgender in either post. Then again, no component of any of my posts have been derision of the transgender state...

You then went on to remind us of our own AUP, but despite more than two years of opportunity, the Report queue is still bereft of content from this thread.

The fact that you don't think you'll ever see "eye to eye on any of this" with someone who thinks transgender people - like anyone else - can do what they like with their own bodies and call themselves anything they want to (for heaven's sakes, both of us are routinely referred to by a made-up screen name; why should wanting to be called "she" instead of "he" be any more trouble than wanting to be called "Famine" instead of "Andrew"? I already made this point earlier in the thread) should all by itself tell you that you are fighting the wrong battle with the wrong targets.


*Oh, but that's not a protected characteristic you say. Well one of the strokes gave him a blue badge while he recovered, and disability very much IS a protected characteristic. This all actually happened, but since he's been dead for 11 years, I'm probably over it. Given that, at the time, we all agreed it was rather good he'd forgotten how to speak as it meant a bit of peace and quiet, there wasn't that much to get over. And that was a joke at his expense and everything.

I very much understand Ialyrn's frustration and he did explain that he posted a lot in emotion and seems to show some regret. Personally I expected an administrator to be neutral and Ialyrn perhaps too. But I realised later that you are entitled to your own views and opinions like anyone else. I guess the fact that Ialyrn got frustrated is because you didnt seem to give protection and in her/his eyes chose a side in the discussion. You do have a tendency to act like a "judge" in certain matters, which does imply you are neutral. The animosity would have been much less if you were just a member posting instead of administrator. So to clear things up for @Ialyrn ask if your role as administrator has requirements to be neutral or are you free to post like anyone else? This is important in this discussion, because if you stated you like Pizza with anchovies it doesnt mean that GTPlanet and its staff all likes anchovies, it just means Famine like anchovies.

 

[Danoff]

I very much understand Ialyrn's frustration and he did explain that he posted a lot in emotion and seems to show some regret. Personally I expected an administrator to be neutral and Ialyrn perhaps too. But I realised later that you are entitled to your own views and opinions like anyone else. I guess the fact that Ialyrn got frustrated is because you didnt seem to give protection and in her/his eyes chose a side in the discussion. You do have a tendency to act like a "judge" in certain matters, which does imply you are neutral. The animosity would have been much less if you were just a member posting instead of administrator. So to clear things up for @Ialyrn ask if your role as administrator has requirements to be neutral or are you free to post like anyone else? This is important in this discussion, because if you stated you like Pizza with anchovies it doesnt mean that GTPlanet and its staff all likes anchovies, it just means Famine like anchovies.

Some of the most active members who contribute to and care the most about the success of the website become admins so that they can help make the site a great place. But to remove those people from being able to contribute by participating in a personal capacity, would be a big mistake. It would remove some of the great content we have here. The forum here would have lost a great deal of wonderful content if the personal contributions from @Famine and @SlipZtrEm were removed. That has been the case with past admins as well.

Some people don't like engaging in heated conversations with people that have official site titles, but I personally like seeing those people contribute because having that tag pop up reminds you that the site administration is active and engaged and following. Also they're great people to talk to.

Edit: I thoroughly enjoyed my heated discussion with @Jordan about net neutrality too.

I accept that I am fallible, which is why I admit I went OTT previously within this thread. As stated above, I got angry, and I got upset. I lost my objectivity, and I felt like no one cared that things could be seen as myself and 2 other transgender individuals did. So I left the thread and the forums for a time.

I assume you got back on your twitter account and posted that.

BTW I've really enjoyed the discussion in this thread, and i hope that you can work your way around seeing that most of the members that frequent the opinions section and to the best of my knowledge all of the staff are completely accepting of just about any lifestyle choice of any member. You'd be hard pressed to find a more open, accepting, and rigorously honest corner of the internet.

I stand behind my opening statement about bigotry, and I think it's better understood now than when I made it. It was a very technical argument, but I see no way around it. Insisting that society conform to particular stereotypes is the problem, and I think the transgender community would be absolutely better served by refusing to participate in that game instead of co-opting it.

 

[PocketZeven]

Some of the most active members who contribute to and care the most about the success of the website become admins so that they can help make the site a great place. But to remove those people from being able to contribute by participating in a personal capacity, would be a big mistake. It would remove some of the great content we have here. The forum here would have lost a great deal of wonderful content if the personal contributions from @Famine and @SlipZtrEm were removed. That has been the case with past admins as well.

Some people don't like engaging in heated conversations with people that have official site titles, but I personally like seeing those people contribute because having that tag pop up reminds you that the site administration is active and engaged and following. Also they're great people to talk to.

Edit: I thoroughly enjoyed my heated discussion with @Jordan about net neutrality too.



I assume you got back on your twitter account and posted that.

BTW I've really enjoyed the discussion in this thread, and i hope that you can work your way around seeing that most of the members that frequent the opinions section and to the best of my knowledge all of the staff are completely accepting of just about any lifestyle choice of any member. You'd be hard pressed to find a more open, accepting, and rigorously honest corner of the internet.

I stand behind my opening statement about bigotry, and I think it's better understood now than when I made it. It was a very technical argument, but I see no way around it. Insisting that society conform to particular stereotypes is the problem, and I think the transgender community would be absolutely better served by refusing to participate in that game instead of co-opting it.

I may have not made it clear that in my own opinion Famine is free to post what he wants. Ialyrn probably wasnt aware that Famine's personal opinions are not the same as GTplanet's opinion.

 

[Famine]

The animosity would have been much less if you were just a member posting instead of administrator.

It's not either/or. It's both.

This is important in this discussion, because if you stated you like Pizza with anchovies it doesnt mean that GTPlanet and its staff all likes anchovies, it just means Famine like anchovies.

Ialyrn probably wasnt aware that Famine's personal opinions are not the same as GTplanet's opinion.

Aside from the fact you seem to think other members are too dumb to realise the difference between me and the site, the thing is... I didn't post any opinions.

I was called a transphobe for being confused about the toilet thing (still am) and then for finding @Danoff's question about what it means to feel male or female interesting. And then I was abused off-site - as part of GTPlanet's "vile" "derision" "at the expense of" transgender people in this thread - for a word pun about the evolution of language. I didn't post any opinions at all.

If I were to post an opinion on the transgender issue, that opinion would be "I don't really care" and "People can do what they like to their own bodies on their own time, and ask to be called whatever they want".


Furthermore, the problem seems to include the fact that I (or rather we) won't "protect" some of the transgender members from reading things that they find offensive just because they find them offensive. We won't do that because it's impossible to do: there's no way to predict what someone might find offensive. In fact the only way to prevent someone from having to read something that they find offensive is to prevent them from reading anything at all and we're not about to start banning all openly-TG people for their own protection...

he

She.

I assume you got back on your twitter account and posted that.

 

[PocketZeven]

It's not either/or. It's both.


Aside from the fact you think other members are too dumb to realise the difference between me and the site, the thing is... I didn't post any opinions.

I was called a transphobe for being confused about the toilet thing (still am) and then for finding @Danoff's question about what it means to feel male or female interesting. And then I was abused off-site - as part of GTPlanet's "vile" "derision" "at the expense of" transgender people in this thread - for a word pun about the evolution of language. I didn't post any opinions at all.

If I were to post an opinion on the transgender issue, that opinion would be "I don't really care" and "People can do what they like to their own bodies on their own time, and ask to be called whatever they want".


Furthermore, the problem seems to include the fact that I (or rather we) won't "protect" some of the transgender members from reading things that they find offensive just because they find them offensive. We won't do that because it's impossible to do: there's no way to predict what someone might find offensive. In fact the only way to prevent someone from having to read something that they find offensive is to prevent them from reading anything at all and we're not about to start banning all openly-TG people for their own protection...

She.

I dont presume anyone is dumb. There are forums (related to commercial companies) out there where the administrator or moderator are an employee and directly represent the company and any post or opinion posted represents the view of the company. So presuming people are dumb for not seeing the difference between you and GTplanet is inaccurate. It is very easy to presume that your views and opinions are shared by GTplanet.com.

I am equally confused about the topic of transgenders and I agree that he/she posting these comments on twitter is out of line, but he/she does seem to admit he/she is remorseful. That does count for something.

I personally come from a minority background and often do see racist posts on different fora, but also can seperate the fact that most of the time it wasnt made in malcious intent and not personal. Perhaps he/she has more trouble to seperate it and is too sensitive.

 

[Famine]

There are forums (related to commercial companies) out there where the administrator or moderator are an employee and directly represent the company and any post or opinion posted represents the view of the company.

And we're not that. We're formerly a fan site, now a media site, founded on the forums themselves - not a forum for a company and certainly not for a product. We don't have any employees (although we do have some contractors).

And I still didn't post any opinions, so there's nothing to represent anyone's view - not even my own.

he/she

She. This isn't that complicated.

I am equally confused about the topic of transgenders

The topic itself isn't confusing really. I don't really know why it merits three posts, much less 30 pages.

My own bewilderment was just the obsession about public toilets. Apparently somewhere in the USA decided something to do with TG people and public toilets, or gender neutral bathrooms, or something, and this was bad. I don't remember what it was, only that a lot of TG folk were upset by it. I was entirely confused because, in 41 years of using public toilets, I've never seen another person's genitals in a public toilet and have no idea how anyone would discover that a TG person using a public toilet was pre or post-op, because traditionally we don't all strip to use them. It turned out that never having noticed if I'd been in a toilet with a TG person was transphobic, somehow. I'm still not sure how, although I was told it was something to do with the fact that it's not easy for TG people to blend in to their assigned sex - although apparently easy enough for me to never have noticed, in 41 years.

And then because someone mentioned that the argument against gender-neutral bathrooms included the fact that paedophiles (presumably male) might use the opportunity to perve on little kids (presumably girls) - which is an argument that is flawed as it ignores the fact that gay paedophiles already exist and already go into public gender-split toilets and can already perve on little kids in there - I got somehow lumped in with the crowd that thinks transgender is paedophilia. I was told I was not only allowing people to label transgender people as paedophiles (which never happened, but was claimed repeatedly), but actively participating in this myself. The challenge to show any post of mine doing this went out two years ago and is still unfulfilled; the claimant chose to spend six months away from the thread instead of proving their claim.

but he/she does seem to admit he/she is remorseful.

She.

I've never received an apology for the false claim that I participated in the labelling of transgender people as paedophiles, just more abuse. Just two days ago it appeared on social media. The comments on Twitter about the vile derision given by GTPlanet to TG people and how even the admins participate in the jokes against TG people remain unretracted and show that there's not only no remorse but a continued and wilful misrepresentation of all that has gone on here.

For the abuse and lies in this thread alone, any other community would have removed the agitators by now. The fact we haven't is somewhat telling about how open and tolerant GTPlanet actually is, despite the way some would try to paint us.

 

[Lizard]

he/she
he/she

It almost sounds like you are trying to insult the person you are supporting here.

 

[PocketZeven]

It almost sounds like you are trying to insult the person you are supporting here.

The premise here is that I dont know any trans people in my community and inner circle, so I have no idea if I should say he or she. I came here late to the thread and do not have the time to go through all 30 pages. I only know that he/she is trans. So is it a guy who is a woman now or the other way around?

 

[Lizard]

The premise here is that I dont know any trans people in my community and inner circle, so I have no idea if I should say he or she. I came here late to the thread and do not have the time to go through all 30 pages. I only know that he/she is trans. So is it a guy who is a woman now or the other way around?

Well as @Famine said, she is a woman, so say she.


It isn't that hard to understand.

 

[Dennisch]

The premise here is that I dont know any trans people in my community and inner circle, so I have no idea if I should say he or she. I came here late to the thread and do not have the time to go through all 30 pages. I only know that he/she is trans. So is it a guy who is a woman now or the other way around?

If you click on the profile of a member it shows it. This member ticked the female box (I know that there aren't any women on the internet, only fatties with weenies, but aside from that, this member probably prefers "she") , as said, it's really easy to understand.

 

[Famine]

Well as @Famine said, she is a woman, so say she.

It isn't that hard to understand.

Hey, if even a rabid transphobe like me can get it right...

 

[Dennisch]

Hey, if even a rabid transphobe like me can get it right...

They would eat you alive on tumblr.

 

[Imari]

The premise here is that I dont know any trans people in my community and inner circle, so I have no idea if I should say he or she. I came here late to the thread and do not have the time to go through all 30 pages. I only know that he/she is trans. So is it a guy who is a woman now or the other way around?

It doesn't matter if it's a guy who is a woman or the other way around. You call people what they ask to be called. That's basic courtesy.

If someone's name is Andromeda but they prefer to be called Andy, what do you call them?

You're making this more complicated than it needs to be. You don't need to know how someone was born or what's in their pants to know how to address them. You just follow what they want, which in the case of this particular member isn't that hard to find when we're in this particular thread. Especially when another member has specifically corrected you.

 

[PocketZeven]

It doesn't matter if it's a guy who is a woman or the other way around. You call people what they ask to be called. That's basic courtesy.

If someone's name is Andromeda but they prefer to be called Andy, what do you call them?

You're making this more complicated than it needs to be. You don't need to know how someone was born or what's in their pants to know how to address them. You just follow what they want, which in the case of this particular member isn't that hard to find when we're in this particular thread. Especially when another member has specifically corrected you.

Exactly and I didnt have the chance to ask her. And I meant no offence at all. When it comes to LGBTQ I am quite ignorant. He corrected me after the mistake i made. I dont knwo how the person looks like and which way she transitioned.

I tried to be neutral afterwards, but apparantly now other people are offended by my gender neutral approach. I entered this thread to learn more about Transgenders so thank you for correcting me when I was wrong.

 

[Danoff]

Exactly and I didnt have the chance to ask her. And I meant no offence at all. When it comes to LGBTQ I am quite ignorant. He corrected me after the mistake i made. I dont knwo how the person looks like and which way she transitioned.

I tried to be neutral afterwards, but apparantly now other people are offended by my gender neutral approach. I entered this thread to learn more about Transgenders so thank you for correcting me when I was wrong.

Just... fly casually...

If you didn't know what gender to link @Imari with, would you refer to @Imari as he/she? No, you'd probably just put @Imari and be done with it. You can do that with anyone. This is a super common problem for me on this message board. I generally assume I'm talking to guys (just statistically that's who is on this site), but it's not a safe assumption in any specific case. Often I'm presented with a screen name where I don't know for sure. So you can just put an @ symbol and the screen name after it and then not have to guess or ask (or in my case... even care or remember).

 

[PocketZeven]

Just... fly casually...

If you didn't know what gender to link @Imari with, would you refer to @Imari as he/she? No, you'd probably just put @Imari and be done with it. You can do that with anyone. This is a super common problem for me on this message board. I generally assume I'm talking to guys (just statistically that's who is on this site), but it's not a safe assumption in any specific case. Often I'm presented with a screen name where I don't know for sure. So you can just put an @ symbol and the screen name after it and then not have to guess or ask (or in my case... even care or remember).

Now I am even more confused. So is Imari a he or she?
I used he/she when I was corrected that Ialyrn is a Transgender after I assumed she was male. I somehow also thought she was a female to male transgender.

 

[Dennisch]

 

[Imari]

Now I am even more confused. So is Imari a he or she?

Yes, we all find that confusing. I'm sure I've given the game away in one of my many thousands of posts, but I tend to try not to do so explicitly because my gender shouldn't have any impact on what I'm saying on an internet board.

I understand why some people get offended by being referred to as the wrong gender (or what they feel is the wrong gender), but I'm not one of them so I'll probably let it slide unless it's somehow relevant. So think of and refer to me however you like.

P.S. Now taking side bets on how long it takes before someone attempts to use that last sentence in a way that's explicitly offensive.