Tuning; how much is too much?

[niky]

To put it simply: All tuning is patently useless.

Unless you own a race-prepped and purpose-built race car, there's always something faster. And even if you do, there's always something faster.

Tuning is all about personal preference. You want the fastest Honda Odyssey to hit the racetrack? Fine. It'll probably be the only Odyssey to hit the racetrack, but it's your car. As such, there are no wrong answers, when all the questions are different. There are only more efficient and less efficient builds.

More efficient means doing more with less, or simply doing more, even if you are spending more.

Less efficient means spending a whole lot of money for little to no improvement. You can drop a big wad of cash on the engine, and if the car doesn't have the suspenders or brakes to handle the power, you will end up being slower and sloppier, overall. I've seen turbochargers on some of the weirdest things. In fact, some of them were downright scary. Turbo on a Jazz? Sure! Turbo on an upright Kei van with a live-axle and stock everything? Uhhhhh...

Thank you, to the two of you who actually stayed on-topic and overlooked the amount of trolls and moderators who came after me for trying to keep the thread on-track.

If you don't like the moderation, don't post. It's pretty simple. The only "rules" on the forum are the rules of the forum. Also funny of you to put this disclaimer:

Disclaimer: Please don't rant or slam about anyone else's opinions.

Then post this:

I had no idea people actually wanted to make high-horsepower versions of a car that will spend very little time on the throttle at an autocross event. Excuse me, and then forget it. Move on, the horse was dead 15 posts ago.

Which looks very much like a rant.

 

[MatskiMonk]

To me 'Tuning' is when you tweak with what's already there, once you start bolting on parts, then it's modification. Thats just what I think anyway.

As for how much is too much, it really depends on what your goal is, and people will have different wants and needs. But, the only time it really offends me, is when people take a perfectly good, rare or desirable base car, then change all the suspension, do an engine swap, and strip it out.. and I'm specifically thinking of people to do it to E30 M3's... seriously WTF?!111!!zOMG.. ! It does bug me.

As Joey D said about tyres, often it's the simple things that people overlook... good tyres are the easiest way to improve cornering speed without compromising anything, also people should consider the fuel they use - what with Petrol and Diesel prices being so high in the UK most people just go for 'Regular', where I've noticed tangible increases in performance across the entire range in my E36, is with using 'Super' unleaded.

 

[homeforsummer]

You want the fastest Honda Odyssey to hit the racetrack?

That is what I want

Though being serious for a second (I don't want to break the thread's rules!!!!one!)...

I like quite a bit of variety in tuning.

My ideal type mixes form and function - to me, there's nothing better than something like a Miata on 14/15" wheels, on good rubber, with a nice but not ridiculous ride height, which is still usable on the street without shattering vertebrae. Power doesn't overly bother me either, though it does depend on the car*. For the aforementioned Miata, a naturally-aspirated 150bhp or so would be plenty, at least on UK roads.

And the UK roads thing is also why the car wouldn't be set up too stiff. I've gone over it ad nauseum on GTP before, but coming from someone who actually lives here and has some great, but incredibly poorly surfaced roads within a few miles of his house, something that rides the bumps is essential. A track-biased setup would really be little use.

On completely the other side...

I do quite like completely style-driven tuning. I'm not sure I could get away with it myself, mainly because I suspect I'd look like a bit of a prat driving a car wound right down, but I appreciate being able to look at the rolling artworks of those who do make stuff like that.


* About power "not bothering me": With access to far more cars than I used to drive, I'll happily now admit that power is much more a factor for me than it used to be. I quite like getting to drive the odd 400bhp+ machine...

But here in the UK, again, there's a sensible limit to how much you can really use. I reckon that figure is around 200-250bhp for something around 1500kg, i.e. the typical hot hatch. Anything more and you barely ever get to use any of it. Any less, and you can occasionally be left thinking, "I wish this had a bit more oomph"...

But, the only time it really offends me, is when people take a perfectly good, rare or desirable base car, then change all the suspension, do an engine swap, and strip it out.. and I'm specifically thinking of people to do it to E30 M3's... seriously WTF?!111!!zOMG.. ! It does bug me.

Have to say, this grates on me a bit too. E30 M3s are one. Clio Williams are another. As are Peugeot 106 Rallyes, Merc 190 Cosworths, and Civic EK9 Type Rs. If I ever got any of the above, I'd want it as close to standard as possible.

 

[Clark]

I hate 'tuning' for that reason. So many good, great or not good but interesting cars have been teen by what I class as chavs. Even if it's done well I hate what they do to these cars.

 

[Roo]

I don't get this fascination with autocross in the US, the only thing similar we have in the UK is autotesting but in that's a whole different kettle of fish.

I believe the closest thing we have to autocross is autosolo:

 

[Tornado]

Tuning is all about personal preference. You want the fastest Honda Odyssey to hit the racetrack? Fine. It'll probably be the only Odyssey to hit the racetrack, but it's your car.

Well, then all you need is a tank of gas, then. Honda Odyssey best track car confirmed.





And I'd say that the line for how much tuning is "too much" is where the tuning begins to compromise driveability to the point that the car can no longer be put up with. But even that is highly subjective, and if the car is being built as an AutoX car, then who cares?

 

[Slash]

Tuning should be too much only when you can't pay for it anymore. if you have the money, do what you want. I may not agree with what is done, but that's besides the point.

 

[oopssorryy]

Tuning should be too much only when you can't pay for it anymore. if you have the money, do what you want. I may not agree with what is done, but that's besides the point.

This.

 

[ITCC_Andrew]

Thank you, slashfan! That's an interesting (and similar) point of view to my own.

I think the best way to put it, in my own opinion, is simply taste; I like soft cars. Not because I don't like bumps, but purely because I like cars with a small amount of "squish" in the corners, and a bit of push. You rarely get oversteer, while maintaining/increasing speed, especially with my tuning setups.


So, I might not focus on stiffening the springs, so much as I'd try to lower my cars, ASAP, and get good tires.


I don't imagine I'd add any horsepower to an FF, or FR car, without tuning the handling a bit, first.

 

[niky]

Depends on the car. There are cars with much much more composure than power. Though, in the end, everything is soft on track.

 

[Ibonibo]

Tuning should be too much only when you can't pay for it anymore. if you have the money, do what you want. I may not agree with what is done, but that's besides the point.

👍


Tuning : spending money you don't have, on things you do not need, to impress people you don't know....


I don't care what is too much. It's my car, and I do the hell what I want with it. Everything to my gusto, not the others....



Some people saying just exterior mods (show 'n' shine) is stupid, though in Germany it revolves especially around that. (Golf 3 with 1.6l worth a 20000-50000 grand in cosmetics mods is "common")

Same goes for just performance, why put 20000 grand in an engine, which you never can drive roadlegally...

But who cares, how much I spent on what as long as I like it.

That is the car mantra I live by, let people tune to their will.
Though obviously I also have things I find extremely stupid, I don't cry "foul" out loud

My S3 gets often the remark on the single frame front bumper. Some call it even Rice, but I don't care, I like it. If you don't, go drive your Corsa...

 

[Luminis]

It's too much when you're endangering others*. Otherwise, everythings fair game (including endangering yourself). However, just as everyone has the right to do their car up as they like, people should have the right to dislike what they see and express their dislikes.

That's my take on it, at least.

*Stuff like super extreme camber and a very, very low right height. Run into a bump on the road, lose control, tumble into oncoming traffic. Stuff like that is ruled out in Germany, anyways, but still.

 

[Ibonibo]

^Yeah naturally these mods are not wise and thank god for the TUV as otherwise there would still be people cutting of springs.
Though TUV also can be a pain (imports, custom mods).

 

[Luminis]

^Yeah naturally these mods are not wise and thank god for the TUV as otherwise there would still be people cutting of springs.
Though TUV also can be a pain (imports, custom mods).

Oh, they can be a HUGE pain. I actually think that a lot of stuff is kinda over-regulated. It'd be sufficient to check whether the car is save to operate on a road. But, well, it's better the way it is than everybody doing what they want, I suppose

 

[Joey D]

However, just as everyone has the right to do their car up as they like, people should have the right to dislike what they see and express their dislikes.

Disliking something because it's not to your tastes is fine but there's quite of a bit of d-baggery when it comes to people hating on modified cars, it's really prevalent on GTP, especially in the Questionable Mods thread. I think people forget that the car they are hating on is someone's pride and joy and something they sank a lot of time and money into.

You don't have to like everything, but I think you should at least respect it. In the end we are all car people in it for the same reasons. I used to be pretty critical of others modified cars but after thinking about it I came to this conclusion.

 

[Luminis]

Disliking something because it's not to your tastes is fine but there's quite of a bit of d-baggery when it comes to people hating on modified cars, it's really prevalent on GTP, especially in the Questionable Mods thread. I think people forget that the car they are hating on is someone's pride and joy and something they sank a lot of time and money into.

You don't have to like everything, but I think you should at least respect it. In the end we are all car people in it for the same reasons. I used to be pretty critical of others modified cars but after thinking about it I came to this conclusion.

I agree with that - but it goes both ways. The same can be said about those who get quite defensive as soon as someone expresses their dislike to a certain style of tuning. Whether the car belongs to any of the involved people doesn't even matter (in which case it seems a bit silly to even fight over such a trivial matter in the first place).

So, yeah, it's generally a matter of respecting each other's opinion, I'd say. I guess that's something that gets harder and harder the more passion is involved in a given topic.

 

[avens]

tuning a car means losing money (re-sale). It's up to you how much do you want to waste on it.

 

[Ibonibo]

^That is if you resell your cars.

My Audi and Nissan will not be sold, either it will die a painful death (hopefully without the driver) and as long as that doesn't happen they stay with me (except life changing situations)

Lumnis: at least it is regulated. Here we guide ourself through the TUV guidelines, but it's not regulated well, so in the high end modifications, nobody knows what you can do and what not. Pain in the popo.
Good thing: it's less regulated and controllers are dumb. I know people with big turbo mods passing the cars as standard as the mods don't have a TUV paper and a single homolgation cost a few bucks and outcome is not sure...
And in Germany it really depends on the controller and wether it's TUV or Dekra (dekra beeing less asshaty)

 

[Punknoodle]

I don't call modifying your car with a body kit and wheels "tuning" but I know some people do. It doesn't make a lot of sense to me. To me, tuning is something you do to set your car up properly, ie adjusting suspension settings or your carburetor or fuel map or timing for your engine..

The other stuff I would call modifying. Including engine work. You modify the engine, then you tune it to get it working properly.

Anyway, how much "modifying" is too much you ask? I think these days people place too much emphasis on following trends, or making their cars stand out, whether it be with expensive stuff like quality body kits and wheels to cheap stuff like tacky interior garbage. I've seen so many cars where the owner has done a paint job, or put on some expensive (but usually tacky) wheels etc, but the general maintenance and upkeep of the vehicle is appalling.

If you want to make your car stand out, do it, however you think looks best as really it all comes down to personal taste, but just make sure the quality of the car is worthy of it.

 

[Kent]

In some ways the more expensive the car the less it should be modified (depending on budget of course). In my case I knew there were. Certain mods I would want and so I kept that in mind during purchase.
At this point all Ive done is experiment with shift knobs lol.

 

[motortrend]

I don't call modifying your car with a body kit and wheels "tuning" but I know some people do. It doesn't make a lot of sense to me. To me, tuning is something you do to set your car up properly, ie adjusting suspension settings or your carburetor or fuel map or timing for your engine..

The other stuff I would call modifying. Including engine work. You modify the engine, then you tune it to get it working properly.

Anyway, how much "modifying" is too much you ask? I think these days people place too much emphasis on following trends, or making their cars stand out, whether it be with expensive stuff like quality body kits and wheels to cheap stuff like tacky interior garbage. I've seen so many cars where the owner has done a paint job, or put on some expensive (but usually tacky) wheels etc, but the general maintenance and upkeep of the vehicle is appalling.

If you want to make your car stand out, do it, however you think looks best as really it all comes down to personal taste, but just make sure the quality of the car is worthy of it.

This. All of it.

IMO there's nothing wrong with modifying, as long as you are aware about the problems or setbacks it could cause, and maintain the car in good condition before spending cash in mods.
I also think that one could modify the car to "rekindle love" I guess, to maintain entertained and not end up losing the same money on the resale and the hassle of changing cars.
On the topic of switching from something like a 318 to an M3, I personally think it would not be smart to spec a 318 to be like an M3, but if one is planning extensive mods then a 318 might be a more accessible platform

 

[Luminis]

Lumnis: at least it is regulated. Here we guide ourself through the TUV guidelines, but it's not regulated well, so in the high end modifications, nobody knows what you can do and what not. Pain in the popo.
Good thing: it's less regulated and controllers are dumb. I know people with big turbo mods passing the cars as standard as the mods don't have a TUV paper and a single homolgation cost a few bucks and outcome is not sure...
And in Germany it really depends on the controller and wether it's TUV or Dekra (dekra beeing less asshaty)

Yeah, it's definitely better to have things regulated a bit too strictly than to have it not regulated at all.

 

[Slash]

👍


Tuning : spending money you don't have, on things you do not need, to impress people you don't know....


I don't care what is too much. It's my car, and I do the hell what I want with it. Everything to my gusto, not the others....



Some people saying just exterior mods (show 'n' shine) is stupid, though in Germany it revolves especially around that. (Golf 3 with 1.6l worth a 20000-50000 grand in cosmetics mods is "common")

Same goes for just performance, why put 20000 grand in an engine, which you never can drive roadlegally...

But who cares, how much I spent on what as long as I like it.

That is the car mantra I live by, let people tune to their will.
Though obviously I also have things I find extremely stupid, I don't cry "foul" out loud

My S3 gets often the remark on the single frame front bumper. Some call it even Rice, but I don't care, I like it. If you don't, go drive your Corsa...

Agreed. It's almost saying along the lines of something like, oh I bought this house, and it's mine, but you don't like me adding on to it? I bought it, I have the money to do this, so I should be able to do whatever I want to it, right? (To an extent, abiding the law at all times)

I bought a gun, I own it, so I should be able to put a scope on it, correct?

Cars are no different. Like I said, too bad if I don't like it. You have a right to do whatever you wish to your vehicle. You own it, not someone else. If you turn a car into a rice burner, cool. Doesn't mean I like it. It's like my pickup. Not everyone likes fancy roll bars in the truck's bed with lights on them.

 

[Joey D]

I agree with that - but it goes both ways. The same can be said about those who get quite defensive as soon as someone expresses their dislike to a certain style of tuning. Whether the car belongs to any of the involved people doesn't even matter (in which case it seems a bit silly to even fight over such a trivial matter in the first place).

So, yeah, it's generally a matter of respecting each other's opinion, I'd say. I guess that's something that gets harder and harder the more passion is involved in a given topic.

I think people get defensive because many people who dislike a certain style of car get super self righteous or idiotic about it. Saying someone should be killed because they put chrome rims on Ferrari is just stupid. Or when they go on and on about how certain car should never have anything else done to it except X, Y and Z.

There's a talent and skill to building any kind of custom vehicle, if it's not your thing just leave it at that. Like I said at the end of the day we are all car guys and we are all in it for the same reason which is why I think the whole muscle car vs. import thing is one of the stupidest fights in the automotive world.

 

[niky]

That's because imports rule, muscle sucks, yo.

Which is why the US D1 series features Japanese cars with LS-motors.

 

[Luminis]

I think people get defensive because many people who dislike a certain style of car get super self righteous or idiotic about it. Saying someone should be killed because they put chrome rims on Ferrari is just stupid. Or when they go on and on about how certain car should never have anything else done to it except X, Y and Z.

There's a talent and skill to building any kind of custom vehicle, if it's not your thing just leave it at that. Like I said at the end of the day we are all car guys and we are all in it for the same reason which is why I think the whole muscle car vs. import thing is one of the stupidest fights in the automotive world.

Well, yeah, I really think it happens on both sides. I've noticed people downright assaulting someone for replacing the 13B in their FD3S with an LSx, for example. On the other hand, some guys are very well-mannered and careful about expressing their dislike and are being assaulted in an equally abusive manner for writing something along the lines "Dunno, wouldn't want that on my car... But kudos for the execution, though". I mean, that isn't super righteous or offensive or anything, and still, opinions like that are met with hugely agressive, rude answers.

If you're asking me, there are just idiots on both sides of the fence. You get the JDM lovers that would bunch a guy in the face for replacing an SR20DET with an LSx and you get the stance lovers who lash out to anyone who doesn't agree that their style is the utmost amazing thing in the world.

Personally, I shake my head at the stuff that I would deem dangerous to be driven on the road and I kinda dislike cars that have been build to jsut be shown off, not to be driven, as that, in my opinion, defeats the purpose of being a car in the first place. Try to get that point across to some folks - no matter how you phrase it, there will be someone who's going to get all worked up about. Not necessarily on the 'Planet, bu there are other, less well-mannered places on the interwebz, after all

 

[ITCC_Andrew]

So, to summarize much of page 3, then, it still continues to come down to the usage?


-performance (Yes, I will buy coil-over springs)

-"stance" (I want to look cool, with more than 3 degrees of camber)

-appearance (I own a unique Honda Civic; the one of a kind car that never was one-of-a-kind)

-"resto-mod" (I own a classic car, but hate how it handles)


Correct?


Also, in reference to the muscle vs. import scene, it depends on money, situation, and status. Yes, I am not poor, living on the street, but, I've also only saved up approx. $5000 so far. Not enough for a 'Cuda. No, I'll stick with my Subaru, and track-day it, too. And, since I'm a working man, and am likely to be doing things, my Subaru wagon is practical.


But, 🤬 yeah, I want a nice Mercedes/'Cuda/Lotus/Evo to retire in, ~46 years on.

 

[Pagey279]

The only times I don't like modifications/tuning is when it directly impacts on their driving.

So if someone has lowered their car to the extreme, so that the tyres are scraping the wheel arches when standing still. They then drive over the numerous speed bumps at 1 mile an hour because that's the fastest they can go. For what? They might think their car looks cool but at the expense of a lot of inconvenience and extreme uncomfortableness when simply driving to the shops and the annoyance of other people on the road.

And also when it endangers other road users. As someone has already said if they stiffen up their car too much, go along a bumpy road, hit a bump at speed and then lose control.

 

[homeforsummer]

I think the whole muscle car vs. import thing is one of the stupidest fights in the automotive world.

I'll freely admit here and now that I used to partake in that debate when I was younger, on the import side of it.

It's essentially lack of education on the matter, I reckon. I didn't much care for muscle cars because I didn't really know much about them. Now I personally know people who own them, I've been to look at them at shows, I've been to the U.S. and absorbed them in museums, and now I think they're awesome.

Same applies for every stereotypical import-hating muscle car fan. Fair enough, you may prefer V8s to inline-fours or whatever, but someone who genuinely can't see the appeal of something that weighs three-eights of sod-all and screams to 9k revs probably isn't trying. Ditto for the meat-headed douches who write off Miatas without ever having gone near one.

There's disliking something because you've experienced it and don't much care for it, and then there's disliking something because you're too far up your own bottom to understand why other people do like it. And there are both types of people in every automotive niche.

 

[Clark]

I can never understand stuff like this.