Turbo lag fun!

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SimonK
You're making the same mistake Jeremy Clarkson did. That will happen in any car, including NA cars if you go full throttle in 4th gear out of the power band.

It's not the point. Maybe simular but no way like that. Wouldn't be as drastic
 
It's not the point. Maybe simular but no way like that. Wouldn't be as drastic

It's exactly what would happen in a S2000. Power vs Revs is not lag. Lag is the time it takes to reach maximum power at a given rev. In your 1st video, the power output of the car matched the powerband. That's wrong for turbo cars.

BTW, I'll have to watch your video a bit later. Though I'll ask again, can you please explain what's going on in the sketches I made?
 
Exorcet
It's exactly what would happen in a S2000. Power vs Revs is not lag. Lag is the time it takes to reach maximum power at a given rev. In your 1st video, the power output of the car matched the powerband. That's wrong for turbo cars.

BTW, I'll have to watch your video a bit later. Though I'll ask again, can you please explain what's going on in the sketches I made?

I am sorry but no. I will not. Why are you still asking me that. It is not relevant to me
 
Anyone ever play Tokyo Extreme Racer 3/ Shutoko Battle 01 on PS2, it has turbo lag simulated pretty nicely :D and it even have turbo over boost which heated up the engine and causing loss of power ... not even GT5 can beat that ;) Play that, then play GT5, there is a difference in how turbo lag simulated.
 
I am sorry but no. I will not. Why are you still asking me that. It is not relevant to me

The only, and I mean only reason you would say this is if you didn't understand what the sketches meant. That's why he kept asking you to explain them, and why I brought up the Turbobird engine. It is 100% relevant to you because you are the one making the claim in the first place.


Anyone ever play Tokyo Extreme Racer 3/ Shutoko Battle 01 on PS2, it has turbo lag simulated pretty nicely :D and it even have turbo over boost which heated up the engine and causing loss of power ... not even GT5 can beat that ;)

And Drift 2 had brake fade!
 
Ridox2JZGTE
Anyone ever play Tokyo Extreme Racer 3/ Shutoko Battle 01 on PS2, it has turbo lag simulated pretty nicely :D and it even have turbo over boost which heated up the engine and causing loss of power ... not even GT5 can beat that ;) Play that, then play GT5, there is a difference in how turbo lag simulated.
I know there is a difference but don't say it isn't there. That's what I am explaining
Toronado
The only, and I mean only reason you would say this is if you didn't understand what the sketches meant. That's why he kept asking you to explain them, and why I brought up the Turbobird engine. It is 100% relevant to you because you are the one making the claim in the first place.
I could have won money on predicting this statement. Fail nice try but fail


And i didn't make the claim as stated before. Keep putting words in my mouth


Huuuummm once again how many of you that are denying what i am saying have actually watch the video demonstration of the topic at hand. I find it funny how some of you are denying what i am saying and can't even watch the video. Hahahaha still both of them have 1 view
 
I could have won money on predicting this statement. Fail nice try but fail
No. Explain how you can claim to understand what turbo lag is, but both refuse to show where it occurs on a dyno graph with a car with a turbo and not understand how Exorcet's graphs are relevant to what you're saying. If there is some other reason beyond you just not knowing what you are talking about, by all means say what it is.

And i didn't make the claim as stated before. Keep putting words in my mouth
Well, now you're just lying:
It can be seen on a dyno chart. What you said about a N/A car's dyno chart is irrelevant because once again it doesn't have a turbo.


Huuuummm once again how many of you that are denying what i am saying have actually watch the video demonstration of the topic at hand. I find it funny how some of you are denying what i am saying and can't even watch the video. Hahahaha still both of them have 1 view
And I find it funny how you are basing your reason to dismiss the rebuttal against your evidence on a views tracker that only updates every few hours rather than actually responding to the rebuttal. And it's hilarious that you don't understand the significance of the dyno graphs that have been provided to you and refuse to prove the presence of turbo lag on one despite saying claiming (as I showed above) that what you are describing should be visible on one.
 
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Toronado
No. Explain how you can claim to understand what turbo lag is, but both refuse to show where it occurs on a dyno graph with a car with a turbo and not understand how Exorcet's graphs are relevant to what you're saying.

Well now you're just lying:

But not to the car or senaryo i am stating.

And now am I lying? hahaha... As stated here the first time you put words in my mouth
Toronado
You don't need to prove me wrong. You just need to tell me where it is on a car known for suffering from turbo lag, since you claimed that you could.

ORPHANTHIRTY7
I claimed i can show turbo lag in the game. I didn't say anything about saying I could tell on any known car (hints the reason i have been ignoring that). I said the Option Stream Z was well known for Tubro lag because of what it was designed for. And what it has in the game is the closest to what it has in real life.

And i have proved it in 2 other cases with two different cars. I even did what he told me to try and showed the differences.

So now you say I am lying about something I never said? Really really. I have been really patient with you in trying to explain this. So now that you say I am a liar here's where my patients has run out because what you are doing now is trying to nit pick things and make assumptions. So i am done.

I have proven what turbo lag is gave the definition along with others. And showed that in fact it is simulated in GT5 (maybe not a 100% accurate but it is there. Never said it was perfect)

Anyway i am done here. Next time try not to make assumptions and call me a liar. Because in downing that you have crossed the line with me. I am done here i have said all i am going to say. This doesn't mean I am giving up on the subject or have I been proven wrong. What it means is i don't not like being called a liar when i haven't lied. That is one of my petpeves. That's why i am done here.
 
But not to the car or senaryo i am
I have proven what turbo lag is gave the definition along with others. And showed that in fact it is simulated in GT5 (maybe not a 100% accurate but it is there. Never said it was perfect)

Simulated with the powerband and gearing is not turbo lag because a NA car would act exactly the same with those same factors :rolleyes:
 
I wasn't going to post in here, because I didn't see the point in arguing. However, some people have made claims that are at best amusing. I'm not saying the game does a perfect job but it does attempt to simulate lag. Orphans video is the best example of this, another is put a low rpm turbo on then go to a high rpm turbo you notice some lag, again it may not be perfect but it is there. I also don't get the logic of saying that gearing doesn't affect lag, it does in 2 very important ways(in real life), shorter gearing allows the engine to rev faster which helps reach the rpm range quicker, however it doesn't put as much load on the motor therefore not making the same amount of boost as a longer gear ratio. Example, my drag supra ( in real life)will only make 18-20psi in first gear but in 3rd gear it makes 25 psi on the same boost controller settings.

Now boost threshold, a lot of misunderstanding here. Boost threshold is the rpm in which a given turbo will produce a positive boost pressure to an engine, aka above the constant 14.7 psi of atmospheric pressure that is always present, barring any changes to engine tune and turbo setup, this never drastically changes. A motor is nothing more than a big air pump, and it will ALWAYS flow the same amount of air out at the given rpm before boost is introduced. Therefore the boost threshold is usually 2500-3500 rpm, then you have the time it takes for the turbo to go from first positive psi to max boost, this is where lag occurs as depending on the size of the turbo and exhaust housing and engine displacement it will vary. This varies greatly depending on turbo size, a T25 turbo will hit full boost on a sr20 at 3000 rpm but will see positive boost(boost threshold) at 2500, on the same motor with a gt35 you still start to see positive boost at 2500, however full boost will be delayed until 3500 rpm due to how large the turbo is, this is lag therefore it is present in the game though not perfect it is there.

out of all the people disputing lag, who actually has a turbo car in real life and hasn't just read about it or watched videos?
 
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Also here's another video same rolling start. Then full throttle in one gear and showing threshold (when i go full throttle and it starts to built boost). You can clearly see the time it takes for it to reach peak boost (which is Tubro Lag).

Also I let off the throttle like the other guy wanted me to and let it drop in a lower RPM and notice the turbo have to spool a bit because it isn't spooling as fast (which is turbo lag).

Then i did the same thing again but in a higher RPM where the turbo is still spooled and shows no lag because the Tubro is spooled.

Here is that video
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KxRiGYaT98s&feature=youtube_gdata_player

OK, now I watched the second video. There is no lag there. Again, you're just showing us the power band. If that car (and again I have no idea what car it was) had a perfectly flat powerband (ie peak horsepower at all RPM) then, you could say there was turbo lag. However, I doubt that was the case.

Lag is not power vs RPM. It is the slow build up of power compared to the the maximum possible power at a certain RPM over time.

Orphans video is the best example of this, another is put a low rpm turbo on then go to a high rpm turbo you notice some lag, again it may not be perfect but it is there.

It seems you don't actually know what lag is, this is the same mistake made throughout this thread, but giving the benefit of the doubt why don't you explain lag to us using the diagrams posted before. Are they right or wrong? Can you show the lag of the Mustang on its dyno chart?


I also don't get the logic of saying that gearing doesn't affect lag, it does in 2 very important ways(in real life), shorter gearing allows the engine to rev faster which helps reach the rpm range quicker
That's not lag, it's just reaching threshold faster.

however it doesn't put as much load on the motor therefore not making the same amount of boost as a longer gear ratio. Example, my drag supra ( in real life)will only make 18-20psi in first gear but in 3rd gear it makes 25 psi on the same boost controller settings.

No matter what the load on the engine, it's still going to make the same power. The turbo is just recycling wasted energy in the exhaust. If your turbo isn't making full boost in first gear, perhaps there isn't enough time for it to do so.

a T25 turbo will hit full boost on a sr20 at 3000 rpm
Not if it was sitting at 3000 RPM at the moment the gas was pressed. It will make full boost later because of lag. You can't pin max boost to a RPM except under very specific circumstances (ie such as the car was under full throttle from idle).

out of all the people disputing lag, who actually has a turbo car in real life and hasn't just read about it or watched videos?

Don't forget, owning a turbo car doesn't mean that one understands how turbos work in the first place.
 
no motor will make it's power instantly like your NA dyno chart, so it's hard to explain, however, looking at the original mustang dyno, from 2300-2800 rpm is where the turbo is spooling up this would be the area where you would see lag, but, on a car with a 2.3l motor and a gt12 sized turbo lag will be hard to see no matter what. as I said before lag occurs after the turbo starts to spool but before it's hits it's efficiency, about 8-10 psi. you can see the chart actually hits an increase in tq, goes more vertical at 2800 rpm and having worked on and driven an 85 turbo thunderbird, it hits peak boost right at 2800-3000 rpm. if it had a larger turbo on it you would be able to see the lag better, as there would be more of it.

as far as me not knowing what lag is, are you sure you even know how a turbo works, your jet turbine explanation was interestingly wrong. the turbine never "stores" energy, and it never goes into the intake path, the compressor pulls in air and compresses it then it goes through the intercooler and into the intake manifold. furthermore, didn't someone in this thread explain lag as the amount of time that it takes the exhaust air to go from the engine to the turbine? that isn't even close to how it works, so how about you explain what YOU consider lag. because so far you have indicated that you think it has to do with exhaust flow when that is not what lag is determined by, though it does affect it, lag is determined primarily by turbo and exhaust housing sizes, and how long it takes to generate enough flow on the exhaust wheel to spin the compressor fast enough to create positive pressure(above atmospheric 14.7 psi), and then you are waiting for it to get to it's efficient boost of 10ish psi give or take a psi. the time that you are waiting for the turbo to go from 0.0 to 10 that's where I consider lag.

as far as the lag on the gear shift, I think the game got it right, in real life when you are driving "enthusiastically" there is hardly any lag when you go back on the throttle, the reason for this is the turbo is still spinning at 100krpm the only reason you lose boost is because you let off the throttle which puts the motor in vacuum which pulls the BOV open and releases the pressurized air. when you push the throttle again the BOV slams shut and the system is instantly pressurized again, the reason you don't notice this on the game if you are using a dfgt or controller is because you are essentially sequential shifting without letting off the throttle, however with G27 it at least simulates what my car does in real life. Not only do I own a turbo car, I work on cars and primarily turbo cars as I have for the last 15+ years, so I know a thing or two. I'm not the one that compared an s2000, a windmill, and the back half only of a jet engine to a turbo, just saying, you said I don't know what I'm talking about, and clearly neither do you.
 
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no motor will make it's power instantly like your NA dyno chart, so it's hard to explain
My chart isn't an exact representation (it's made in MSpaint). But you do agree with the basic message, or don't you? NA engine makes power quickly when you press on the gas. A turbo needs to spool up when you press on the gas. This is true no matter where you are in the rev range. That's what the graphs say.

however, looking at the original mustang dyno, from 2300-2800 rpm is where the turbo is spooling up this would be the area where you would see lag,
Why would it only be limited to that rev range. What if you were cruising down the high way in 1st, and then floored it. Or better yet, what if you were on a road course and holding partial throttle through the corner while holding 4800 RPM. When you punch it, you will get lag. What will happen is you'll punch the gas and get 120 hp even though the engine is rated for 160 hp. A little bit of time later, the turbo will spool up and your actual power will match the powerband. That's lag. That's why race drivers have cited it as a problem during corners. If it was just about being above X RPM, no professional driver would raise an eyebrow over lag. Not even the good amateur drivers would.

as I said before lag occurs after the turbo starts to spool but before it's hits it's efficiency,
Agreed, which is why the issue isn't about RPM. Any time you let the turbo wind down, it needs to spool up again. So trying to tie it to RPM is pointless. You could be going along at 15,000 RPM, if you're turbo is idling, it's going to need to spool up and when it tries to, it will lag.

you can see the chart actually hits an increase in tq, goes more vertical at 2800 rpm and having worked on and driven an 85 turbo thunderbird, it hits peak boost right at 2800-3000 rpm. if it had a larger turbo on it you would be able to see the lag better, as there would be more of it.

Problem, the S2000 curve has similar behavior. At 6000 RPM there is a sudden increase in torque. It's actually more severe than what's on the Ford. It must be turbo lag, only the S2000 has no turbo.

as far as me not knowing what lag is, are you sure you even know how a turbo works, your jet turbine explanation was interestingly wrong.
Not sure how it can be, a turbine is a turbine. A Jet engine is a turbine, it does exactly what a turbo does. Common perception of a jet engine is air in, fire out. But the fire isn't what makes all the power (at least not in a turbofan). Most of the "fire" actually drives the turbine stage (turbocharger) which compresses air that is driven to the combustor (cyclinders) and drives the fan. The fuel added in the combustor drives the turbine.

In a car the air that has passed through combustion is used to drive the turbine (turbocharger) which compresses air before it goes to the cylinders.

the turbine never "stores" energy, and it never goes into the intake path, the compressor pulls in air and compresses it then it goes through the intercooler and into the intake manifold.

It most certainly stores energy. I'm not using any kind of laymans terms there. This is thermodynamics. The energy in the turbo is related to its RPM. The faster it spins, the more energy there is in it. I suppose you could argue against energy being "stored" (well I never even used that word) as it's constantly being passed from the post combustion air to the turbine to the pre-combustion air, but the turbo needs energy to turn.

That energy most certainly goes into the intake path (or intake manifold as you put it). That energy is the extra hp from the turbo [internal energy from exhaust air to mechanical energy of turbine to internal/chemical energy of the air fuel mixture to mechanical energy of the pistons to internal energy of the exhaust gas again].

furthermore, didn't someone in this thread explain lag as the amount of time that it takes the exhaust air to go from the engine to the turbine? that isn't even close to how it works,
I said something similar to that, but I did not say that specifically. Lag is the time is takes for the exhaust air to spool up the turbo.

so how about you explain what YOU consider lag.
Done.
because so far you have indicated that you think it has to do with exhaust flow when that is not what lag is determined by,
There is more to determining how much lag you'll find than just the exhaust flow, however the reason for lag in the first place is because the turbo is spooled indirectly by exhaust gas, unlike a supercharger which is driven directly by the engine.

as far as the lag on the gear shift, I think the game got it right,
That would only be in drag racing then, one of the big complaints about 70's-80's turbos, which was massive lag on corner exit, it completely missing. In GT5, all you need to do is make sure you take the corner at a RPM that is in a relatively flat portion of the powerband and you'll avoid any sort of surge in power to the wheels. This is completely wrong.
you said I don't know what I'm talking about
That was never even implied. I simply said that saying that you own a turbo car doesn't mean much. You own a computer too I take it. Does that mean you can write a thesis on the feasibility of a quantum computer within the next decade?
clearly neither do you.
Not quite sure anyone has provided any evidence of that, but I'm listening.
 
well firstly an s2000 has vtec which exaggerates everything that makes it............well if I go on honda fans get mad lol. we agree on the way turbos act and all that in general, we differ in our terms and explaining how it works, all I am really out to say is that they made an attempt at it and you can see the attempt and you can over exaggerate the circumstance to show it in a certain way, so it is there however horrible the attempt. It goes on the list of things that should be changed but won't be. to be honest I never really have said a turbo in real life is laggy because I don't really care because for the way I drive and what I use my car for keeping it in a certain rpm works fine. so for me what I call lag is in the game based on yes the power curve because the turbo is responsible for the tq curve. eventhough you have to do things a certain way to show it and it has to be from a slow roll, like I said just a different view of how they work and how we explain it. anyway, good debate, have fun enjoy the game.
 
, all I am really out to say is that they made an attempt at it and you can see the attempt and you can over exaggerate the circumstance to show it in a certain way, so it is there however horrible the attempt.

I think thats been mentioned in this thread a few times. They simulate the turbo lag with the powerband which is a poor substitute and is not really turbo lag.
 
Exorcet
Let's make a distinction here. Nothing I've said applies to the real car. It's the GT5 version that lacks turbo lag.

That's not really a great source, it would be like referring to this thread as proof that's there's lag in GT5.

Yes. A turbo is basically the back half of a jet engine (which is a turbine). This means they're sort of like windmills. The engine produces high energy air that feeds the turbine. The turbine then puts this energy into the intake air to compress it. But the turbine needs to collect energy, or spool up, before it can output energy. The lag between engine exhaust air getting to the turbine and the point in time where the turbine is producing high pressure intake air is turbo lag.

Or, likening the turbo to a windmill, it's the time between the moment that the wind starts blowing over the windmill to the time where the windmill is spinning rapidly. The wind would be generated by the engine and its intensity depends on engine RPM initially. As the engine RPM's build the windmill's rotational speed builds up, but it lags behind the wind's intensity.

Hey dude what the hell talking about i just about jumped a bridge reading this s:censored: and whatever you are on i want some of that. Why would you say a turbo is like a windmill..... and a turbo doesn't spin as fast as an engine....
 
Let's make a distinction here. Nothing I've said applies to the real car. It's the GT5 version that lacks turbo lag.




That's not really a great source, it would be like referring to this thread as proof that's there's lag in GT5.



Yes. A turbo is basically the back half of a jet engine (which is a turbine).
1259764057833.jpg

This means they're sort of like windmills.
17-long-neck-reaction-guy.png

The engine produces high energy air that feeds the turbine.
Velocity* Turbine than Engine

The turbine then puts this energy into the intake air to compress it.
132044762721.jpg


But the turbine needs to collect energy, or spool up, before it can output energy.
spirit%20bomb%20in%20kakarotts%20hands.jpg


The lag between engine exhaust air getting to the turbine and the point in time where the turbine is producing high pressure intake air is turbo lag.

Or, likening the turbo to a windmill, it's the time between the moment that the wind starts blowing over the windmill to the time where the windmill is spinning rapidly. The wind would be generated by the engine and its intensity depends on engine RPM initially.
top10kid---windmill.jpg

As the engine RPM's build the windmill's rotational speed builds up, but it lags behind the wind's intensity.
tumblr_mbdvw2or9Y1riqih8o1_500.gif
 
Yep, just read it. I'm still correct. If you've discovered new laws of physics, please share.
 
aky141
Hey everyone,
I love my turbo cars, so if anyone could give me some cars that have a really peaky powerband from the boost, because i find it fun :D
I already know about the Pikes peak, That option 350Z, and the Ferrari F40
Can anyone else list more o.O

Did everyone forget what he was originally asking?
What does it matter is it turbo lag or something else,
I think everyone got the point of his question.
I have found HPA and Option Z to have this effect what you were asking.
 

This video is to demonstrate the existence of Turbo Lag in Gran Turismo 5.
To demonstrate this I took a stock Option Stream Z on Special Stage Route X, to give the best conditions to display my evidence.

I start off at around 3,000RPM before holding the throttle at 3/4 application causing the RPM to climb steadily. As the RPM rises the turbo will begin spooling; once the RPM reaches roughly 4,000 RPM the engine is producing sufficient exhaust flow to build up boost, otherwise known as the "Boost Threshold".
From this point forth you can see the boost increasing in small increments, this is known as "Turbo Lag" - the time between Boost Threshold being met and the turbo charger reaching "Peak Boost".

In this instance the Boost Gauge is able to show the correct values for a period of time due to the lower throttle input, this leads me to believe that Exorcet is indeed correct about the Boost Gauge which I have said from the beginning - upon reaching what the Gauge reads as "Peak Boost" you can both hear and feel the turbo continuing to spool.

I find this to be conclusive evidence that Turbo Lag is indeed present in Gran Turismo 5, despite the misleading gauges.
 
Why would you say a turbo is like a windmill.....
It is like a windmill in some ways. It takes energy from the gas around it and turns it into rotational kinetic energy, which is also what a windmill does.

and a turbo doesn't spin as fast as an engine....
If by "doesn't spin as fast" you mean "doesn't spin at the same speed", that's correct; it spins much, much faster. Depending on the size of the wheels, anywhere from ~80k to ~150k RPM is typical, with smaller turbos spinning faster (but, paradoxically, also spooling faster so they have less lag).
 
Scrolled through the first few pages of the thread rather quickly.

May have already been suggested but any Supra with a large turbo you'd like.
 
My Keiichi Aizawa "Monster Machine" Supra RZ has 800+HP, custom turbo high rpm kit with modified boost :D, it has less lag than standard high rpm kit, but offer more power. So, yeah lag is fun but no good when doing highway battle at SSR7 :) I often have to do rolling launch from 80kmh on 2nd gear, the Monster Machine has long gearing for top speed over 370+kmh. 2nd gear could reach just over 160kmh.

In essence, turbo kits in GT5, when properly set up with engine tuning can reduce the peaky powerband - slow boost build up, even on super high rpm kit ( stage 4 ). I have RX 7 with 787B engine using custom high rpm kit with lower boost, it sprints like mad even with 660+HP, it doesn't even feel like stock 787B engine anymore :D
 
@Ridox: That GSX-R/4...
50kph, in third gear, then full throttle...
it accelerates very slowly, until 4000rpm, when the turbocharger kicks in (which you can hear clearly).
man, is that a beast!
 

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